View Full Version : Bush honors a worthless American...
Devastatin Dave
11-09-2005, 22:07
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/051109205419.f7izopnr.html
Unbelievable he put that medal around that piece of poop draft dodgers neck. Shameful...~:rolleyes:
Hurin_Rules
11-09-2005, 22:18
Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?
Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.
If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?
If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.
Crazed Rabbit
11-09-2005, 22:39
If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?
I didn't know you considered Clinton a POS.
Crazed Rabbit
Devastatin Dave
11-09-2005, 22:39
Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?
Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.
If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?
If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.
Bush actually served. Cassius Clay never served. Get your facts straight before posting ignorant responses. Poor and black, LOL, old Cassius wasn't exactly poor when he got his orders. Duhhhh.~:rolleyes:
What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?
Jane actually went to Vietnam
Seamus Fermanagh
11-09-2005, 22:41
Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?
Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.
If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?
If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.
Unlike Dave, I have no beef with Ali (Clay). He didn't dodge the draft, he out-and-out refused and took a big financial hit in consequence and very nearly did time in jail as well. While I disagree with his choice, he had the courage of his convictions and took his lumps. Also, Ali was black but was not -- until he made his decision -- poor. His career was quite successful at that time (though he was not brought up in an affluent family).
I also disagree with you about Bush's service in the guard. Yes, when he joined he was aware that guard units rarely deployed. Yes, he was selected for the guard from a fairly large pool of applicants and some measure of favoritism (asked for or not) cannot be ruled out. However, he put on the uniform and if his unit got deployed he would have gone -- and there were lots of folks who took that same risk during the Vietnam war. Doesn't win bonus points from me, but nor do I assume it to be poor service.
You are also being unfair to DevDave here. Any -- even cursory -- reading of his posts would clearly demonstrate that DD would loathe anybody who he viewed to be a draft dodger -- nothing in his track record would let you credibly suggest that his brand of super-patriotism is influenced by race or ethnicity. You have backhandedly implied that he is a racist, which is unwarranted and should be a Bozo no-no.
Hurin_Rules
11-09-2005, 22:46
Bush actually served. Cassius Clay never served. Get your facts straight before posting ignorant responses.
Bush actually served in Vietnam? Wow, that's news to me.
Get your facts straight indeed.
No, I wasn't accusing Dave of being a racist. But now that I think of it, anyone who labels 'worthless' a man who is so respected and has done so much for the black community in America clearly is, if not racist, then very, very ignorant.
BTW, Ali did grow up poor, so please don't further accuse me of ignorance:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BCQdEwktHpAJ:www.ali.com/page.cfm%3Fname%3DSoulofaButterfly+muhammad+ali+poor+family&hl=en
Crazed Rabbit
11-09-2005, 22:49
Bush actually served in Vietnam? Wow, that's news to me.
Get your facts straight indeed.
Ever heard of a little something called the Air Force national Guard?
And did DD say 'In vietnam', or did you add that there to add a wee, flaky little bit of credence to your argument?
Crazed Rabbit
Hurin_Rules
11-09-2005, 22:54
And did DD say 'In vietnam', or did you add that there to add a wee, flaky little bit of credence to your argument?
I didn't 'add' it at all. We're talking about the draft for the Vietnam war. If you want to parse to rescue the honour of a man who used his family connections to get out of having to fight, to accuse a man who actually stood up for his convictions, and to defend a president who critiqued a true veteran (John Kerry) to score cheap political points, then fine; but please get off your high horse when you do so.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-09-2005, 22:57
BTW, Ali did grow up poor, so please don't further accuse me of ignorance:
I was aware that Ali was not brought up in affluent surroundings, and certainly never summered at Kennebunkport. My point was that he had achieved quite a deal of economic success as a fighter prior to his decision not to serve. He was giving up a lot and knew it, and knew quite well that his chance of serving in combat was almost nil -- Joe Louis' army service was noted to him -- but still refused to serve.
solypsist
11-09-2005, 23:38
when I read, "Bush honors a worthless American... " and then saw the word "medal," I thought this was an old link revived.
http://www.pontealdia.com/common/newsimages/t/Tenet-Bush-medal.jpg
Red Harvest
11-09-2005, 23:52
What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?
Jane actually went to Vietnam
Good one.
Ever heard of a little something called the Air Force national Guard?
ever heard of something called "cushy little assignment his rich daddy got him so he could get out of going to nam"?
Leet Eriksson
11-10-2005, 00:00
Just becuase he dodged the draft he is worthless?
Who knows what could have happened if he went there, he could have died and then you'd have one less american legend.
And all this time I thought individuality, the dissenting opinion, and standing up for one's beliefs especially when those beliefs are unpopular, were the hallmarks of being a true American.
Who would have known it was really toeing the line, remaining silent, and subverting one's self to authority.
Aurelian
11-10-2005, 01:13
Unbelievable he put that medal around that piece of poop draft dodgers neck. Shameful...
Well, it's not like Muhammed Ali was some little beeotch who ran away because he was too scared to fight. After all, his job was getting punched in the head repeatedly by people like George Foreman.
His not going to Vietnam was on principle, and he paid for it with what probably would have been the best years of his career. If, despite his opposition to the war, he'd entered the military and let them use him as a poster-boy in Life magazine, than that would have been shameful.
Hell, even President Johnson was telling people privately that the war wasn't winnable, so what was really the point of anybody going over there? If the answer to that is "when your country tells you to go, you go"... well, you either go or you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, which he was.
~:cheers:
Gawain of Orkeny
11-10-2005, 01:33
Ali is no draft dodger. He is a man of principles. I hated to see him become a Muslim but at least he stood up for what he believed right or wrong. I consider him a great american if a bit misquided. Ali is a MAN.
DemonArchangel
11-10-2005, 02:06
Ali is no draft dodger. He is a man of principles. I hated to see him become a Muslim but at least he stood up for what he believed right or wrong. I consider him a great american if a bit misquided. Ali is a MAN.
Seconded.
Sure, give him a medal. I have no problems with draft-dodgers, whether or not you consider Ali one.
Papewaio
11-10-2005, 02:59
Ali was a Conscientious Objector not a draft dodger. One follows his principles the other looks after his skin.
In 1971, nearly five years after it began, Ali's legal battle finally culminated with a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court overturning his draft conviction.
So the Supreme Court also did not consider him a draft dodger.
Byzantine Prince
11-10-2005, 03:01
War is pointless. Honour for war is a joke that we all like to pretend is serious occasion to be savoured.
Strike For The South
11-10-2005, 03:07
War is pointless. Honour for war is a joke that we all like to pretend is serious occasion to be savoured.
Wow somebody needs a reality check. What about World War2 or the first Iraq war or the American civil war. I would take any man who fought in those wars of a self pitying self loathing pessimistic jack ass like yourself any day off the week
Byzantine Prince
11-10-2005, 03:12
Wow somebody needs a reality check. What about World War2 or the first Iraq war or the American civil war. I would take any man who fought in those wars of a self pitying self loathing pessimistic jack ass like yourself any day off the week
As I said, we ALL like to PRETEND to find honour in war.
Strike For The South
11-10-2005, 03:16
Like I said somebody needs to get a reality check. Its an honor to serve and protect people who cant protect themselves
Devastatin Dave
11-10-2005, 03:23
Ali still doesn't have the honor to lick the sweat of my... nevermind, one PM from the mods tonight is enough!!!~D
Kaiser of Arabia
11-10-2005, 03:48
What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?
Jane actually went to Vietnam
'Cept she aided the Viet Cong...traitor.
Lets not dig that old chesnut up again. It was a joke. Remember those? Sometimes, though not often, we see them here.
Kudos to Ali.
Papewaio
11-10-2005, 04:15
Ali still doesn't have the honor to lick the sweat of my... nevermind, one PM from the mods tonight is enough!!!~D
Honour is related to integrity. Saying one thing and doing another is unhonourable. Ali acted with integrity, he was consistent. He stood up and stated what he believed in and acted in the same manner.
Yeah, I fail to see how Ali is worthless because he had moral objections to fighting in the Vietnam war...
Childish.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-10-2005, 04:28
As I noted above, I am not the detractor of Ali that DevDave is. However, when does appropriate dissent cross the line and become inappropriate?
Many who disagreed with the War did serve, some even serving unarmed in combat as medics.
To disagree, to dissent, to lobby for change are all acceptable elements of the democratic process. Ali's refusal to serve, however, broke the law -- a law promulgated by the duly elected government representatives of that same republic. If the individual has no right to petition the government for change, then the spectre of tyranny has arisen -- yet if the individual is free to ignore the duly promulgated constraints/responsibilities expected of a member of that society, then we have the spectre of anarchy and chaos. While I may not believe Ali to be dishorourable, I do believe he was wrong.
Byzantine Prince
11-10-2005, 04:52
Like I said somebody needs to get a reality check. Its an honor to serve and protect people who cant protect themselves
People who have that as a reality are not living in the same world as me. War has never been about protecting anything, I feel bad about saying something so blatantly obvious, but the naive have to be guided. ~:rolleyes:
As for Ali, I don't see why he's getting another medal. This smells of a popularity boost for el presidente(yeah you heard right).
Hurin_Rules
11-10-2005, 04:57
You raise some interesting points Seamus, but I think you do have to consider:
The governments under which Ali lived were actively denying him equal rights-- sit at the back of the bus, boy (Rosa Parks just died the other week, BTW).
The government was actively lying to the American people about what was going on in Vietnam.
He and others felt the war was both illegal and immoral.
Perhaps Ali should just have left the country you might say--and you might have a point. Then, however, we could clearly call him a 'draft dodger'. But he didn't. He stayed and stood up for his beliefs. I'm not totally sure I agree with that decision either, but by the same token the man and his accomplishments can hardly be dismissed as 'worthless' because of it--it was a difficult call to make if you didn't agree with the war in the first place.
solypsist
11-10-2005, 05:00
ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzziiinng!!! (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56766)
And all this time I thought individuality, the dissenting opinion, and standing up for one's beliefs especially when those beliefs are unpopular, were the hallmarks of being a true American.
Who would have known it was really toeing the line, remaining silent, and subverting one's self to authority.
PanzerJaeger
11-10-2005, 05:30
I fail to see how Ali is a great man, any more so than Rosa Parks or any of the other inflated black "heros" of that time... but those freedom medals are handed out like halloween candy anyway.
Also, draft dodgers are lame. You can try to glamorize it however you like with talk of standing up for ones beliefs and all that other bullshit, but fact is when you pussy out someone has to go in your place. (Errr. that whole thing should have been in past tense..)
Papewaio
11-10-2005, 05:36
I fail to see how Ali is a great man, any more so than Rosa Parks or any of the other inflated black "heros" of that time... but those freedom medals are handed out like halloween candy anyway.
Reverse the situation. You as a German in America cannot eat at any restaurant except those run by Germans. You cannot use other toilets except those for Germans and these toilets are not funded the same as the rest they are rundown. You must sit in a certain section of the bus. You will always be referred to as Boy as will your father. The police in certain districts will harass you constantly if you so much as look them in the eye. There are groups that will hang and quarter you for being German. You are told by anyone and everyone you are the lowest of the low.
Now what do you do?
Crazed Rabbit
11-10-2005, 05:44
Dave, I've gotta disagree with you about Ali. He didn't try and dodge the draft; he just said no and took his lumps like a man.
Crazed Rabbit
PanzerJaeger
11-10-2005, 06:30
Reverse the situation. You as a German in America cannot eat at any restaurant except those run by Germans. You cannot use other toilets except those for Germans and these toilets are not funded the same as the rest they are rundown. You must sit in a certain section of the bus. You will always be referred to as Boy as will your father. The police in certain districts will harass you constantly if you so much as look them in the eye. There are groups that will hang and quarter you for being German. You are told by anyone and everyone you are the lowest of the low.
Now what do you do?
I would go back to Germany or where ever I came from, but I get you're point.
Im not saying the civil rights idols werent brave, but Rosa Parks should have gotten a pat on the back, not the hero-worship she gets. Refusing to move doesnt make her anything more than socially disobedient. Ali did nothing great in that respect either.
screwtype
11-10-2005, 07:35
Honour is related to integrity. Saying one thing and doing another is unhonourable. Ali acted with integrity, he was consistent. He stood up and stated what he believed in and acted in the same manner.
Yes, and Bush did the exact opposite. He was a staunch proponent of the war, and his chosen contribution to the cause was to help protect Texas from the North Vietnamese Air Force.
And even then, it appears he didn't bother to serve his full term.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-10-2005, 07:50
Dave, I've gotta disagree with you about Ali. He didn't try and dodge the draft; he just said no and took his lumps like a man.
Yup. He lost his title in the prime of his career and was barred from boxing. He still came back and is the greatest heavyweight of All time as he was fond of saying. And PJ this man is a true hero. Not many would do what he did.
Yes, and Bush did the exact opposite. He was a staunch proponent of the war, and his chosen contribution to the cause was to help protect Texas from the North Vietnamese Air Force.
And even then, it appears he didn't bother to serve his full term.
ohhhh you had to keep an eye in that sneaky north vietnamese air force.....who knows....they might have launched a surprise raid and bombed Austin or something like that......"Be Prepared" as the boyscouts say...~D
/sarcasm off
I fail to see how Ali is a great man, any more so than Rosa Parks or any of the other inflated black "heros" of that time...
Put yourself in Zimbabwe, where whites are treated as blacks were decades ago in the US. Take a bus, sit amongst a group of black soldiers, then refuse to give up your seat when the driver tells you to. Let's see if self-preservation rears its ugly head or if you stand your ground, keep your seat, and face the wrath of overwhelming force.
It's far different when you're there. It wasn't just civil disobedience, it was conquering the fear of history, racism, arrest, police dogs, jail, and beatings.
Pretty good for a woman, especially a black woman in the US south in the 50s. Nothing inflated about her bravery.
Ja'chyra
11-10-2005, 13:01
People who have that as a reality are not living in the same world as me. War has never been about protecting anything, I feel bad about saying something so blatantly obvious, but the naive have to be guided. ~:rolleyes:
I don't think there are many people in the same world as you bud, we're all hoping you will grow out of it soon though ~:cheers: To be fair though I don't think that you are the org member in biggest need of a reality check.
As for Ali, he stood up and fought for what he believed in, and if you look as some of the ........people..... who get honours (with a U) in this country, the UK, then you wont be as quick to condemn.
I always get a kick out of the fact that liberals and/or baby boomers of all persuasions get all worked up and touch themselves when discussing the man called Muhammed Ali. Talk about one the most overrated figures of the 20th century. Ali was a great boxer with a big mouth and a quick wit, period. Outside of the ring he was first rate attention whore, offering up clever quips and poses for the cameras at every opportunity. He set the mold for a generation of self absorbed, attention whoring athletes that followed. Hurray.
Ali getting the 'Athlete of the Century' label for his achievements in a single sport is bad enough (especially when compared to other single sport athletes like Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Gretsky, Pele, etc.) but this Medal of Freedom nonsense is ridiculous. It doesn't surprise me one bit though. Bush and most of his staff are boomers and that generation just loves their pop culture heroes of dubious worth and achievement. I'm sure Clinton is kicking himself or berating his old White House staffers for not thinking of it first. I imagine when Gen X or Gen Y generation makes it into the White House we'll see these silly medals handed out to porn stars, famous bloggers and video game developers.
Conscientous objector. Man of principles. Bovine dung. Ali was probably terrified of the prospect of serving in Vietnam and hid behind his newfound faith as an excuse. Being that he was a wealthy, popular celebrity dodging the draft would have proven to be even more disastrous for his health, let alone his career. Hmm, I wonder how many points should be deducted from Ali's 'principled' column for beating his wife or screwing every available piece of tail on the side? I'm not exactly sure but I think it's safe to say that both practices violate some sort of tenet of Islam, the very same faith he used as an excuse to keep from being sent to 'the 'Nam'. Ali's wife beating is a little known factoid you won't find in any version of Trivial Pursuit. Kudos to the creator's of the classic comedy show "In Living Color" for dragging that skeleton out of Ali's closet and putting it on the air.
Furthermore how many no-name, conscientous objectors of other faiths and economic backgrounds didn't get the same break that Ali did? How many poor or middle class conscientous objectors went to prison because they weren't proficient at beating the crap out of another athelete in a ring for 12 rounds and then mugging it up for a photo op afterwards?
Devastatin Dave
11-10-2005, 19:53
I always get a kick out of the fact that liberals and/or baby boomers of all persuasions get all worked up and touch themselves when discussing the man called Muhammed Ali. Talk about one the most overrated figures of the 20th century. Ali was a great boxer with a big mouth and a quick wit, period. Outside of the ring he was first rate attention whore, offering up clever quips and poses for the cameras at every opportunity. He set the mold for a generation of self absorbed, attention whoring athletes that followed. Hurray.
Ali getting the 'Athlete of the Century' label for his achievements in a single sport is bad enough (especially when compared to other single sport athletes like Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Gretsky, Pele, etc.) but this Medal of Freedom nonsense is ridiculous. It doesn't surprise me one bit though. Bush and most of his staff are boomers and that generation just loves their pop culture heroes of dubious worth and achievement. I'm sure Clinton is kicking himself or berating his old White House staffers for not thinking of it first. I imagine when Gen X or Gen Y generation makes it into the White House we'll see these silly medals handed out to porn stars, famous bloggers and video game developers.
Conscientous objector. Man of principles. Bovine dung. Ali was probably terrified of the prospect of serving in Vietnam and hid behind his newfound faith as an excuse. Being that he was a wealthy, popular celebrity dodging the draft would have proven to be even more disastrous for his health, let alone his career. Hmm, I wonder how many points should be deducted from Ali's 'principled' column for beating his wife or screwing every available piece of tail on the side? I'm not exactly sure but I think it's safe to say that both practices violate some sort of tenet of Islam, the very same faith he used as an excuse to keep from being sent to 'the 'Nam'. Ali's wife beating is a little known factoid you won't find in any version of Trivial Pursuit. Kudos to the creator's of the classic comedy show "In Living Color" for dragging that skeleton out of Ali's closet and putting it on the air.
Furthermore how many no-name, conscientous objectors of other faiths and economic backgrounds didn't get the same break that Ali did? How many poor or middle class conscientous objectors went to prison because they weren't proficient at beating the crap out of another athelete in a ring for 12 rounds and then mugging it up for a photo op afterwards?
If only I was this articulate. :bow:
I imagine when Gen X or Gen Y generation makes it into the White House we'll see these silly medals handed out to porn stars, famous bloggers and video game developers.
Are you saying John Carmack doesn't deserve his Medal of Freedom in 2015? ~;)
Geoffrey S
11-11-2005, 18:12
Ali is no draft dodger. He is a man of principles. I hated to see him become a Muslim but at least he stood up for what he believed right or wrong. I consider him a great american if a bit misquided. Ali is a MAN.
Agreed. Whether or not one agrees with Ali he cannot be accused of not standing up for his beliefs with conviction.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-11-2005, 18:46
Conscientous objector. Man of principles. Bovine dung. Ali was probably terrified of the prospect of serving in Vietnam and hid behind his newfound faith as an excuse.
And your proof of this? The man certainly is very far from being a coward. I also doubt he would have had to worrry about being sent into combat or even Nam unless it was to entertain the troops there.
Furthermore how many no-name, conscientous objectors of other faiths and economic backgrounds didn't get the same break that Ali did? How many poor or middle class conscientous objectors went to prison because they weren't proficient at beating the crap out of another athelete in a ring for 12 rounds and then mugging it up for a photo op afterwards?
Its more like those who couldnt afford a good lawyer. This to me is one of the worst parts of our justice system. They say debtors prison is ilegal but it seems to me many times they give you the choice of either pay this fine or go to jail. Only the poor for the most part go to jail.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-11-2005, 23:19
it's pretty rich that a conscientous objector can make his living from violence.
Alexanderofmacedon
11-11-2005, 23:45
Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?
Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.
If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?
If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.
Dave....PWNED!!!!
Alexanderofmacedon
11-11-2005, 23:53
Like I said somebody needs to get a reality check. Its an honor to serve and protect people who cant protect themselves
I don't see how invading other countries is "protecting" the people who can't protect themselves...
Gawain of Orkeny
11-11-2005, 23:57
I don't see how invading other countries is "protecting" the people who can't protect themselves...
Then you are in serious need of a few history lessons. Do you think invading Germany helped protect the Jews imprisoned there or were they still treated the same after we liberated the country? In fact the same can be said of all of ocuppied Europe at the time.
Alexanderofmacedon
11-11-2005, 23:59
Good point. I was thinking more along the lines of present day events...
Thank you for bringing that truth to my attention...
Byzantine Prince
11-12-2005, 00:07
Then you are in serious need of a few history lessons. Do you think invading Germany helped protect the Jews imprisoned there or were they still treated the same after we liberated the country? In fact the same can be said of all of ocuppied Europe at the time.
Fallacy. America did not declare war on Germanny because they killed Jews and other minorities.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-12-2005, 00:10
BP: you didn't read that thoroughly.
I think you should.
BP: you didn't read that thoroughly.
I think you should.
Naw its funnier as written - foot in mouth disease is common today.
Devastatin Dave
11-12-2005, 01:09
it's pretty rich that a conscientous objector can make his living from violence.
~:cheers:
Gawain of Orkeny
11-12-2005, 01:17
Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff
it's pretty rich that a conscientous objector can make his living from violence.
Hes opposed to war and killing not violence. Theres a huge difference. In fact I dont even no if thats why he objected.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-12-2005, 01:34
~:cheers:
InsaneApache
11-12-2005, 11:32
I would go back to Germany or where ever I came from
Your arrogance and ignorance is outstanding. Just where are/were the negroes to go back to?
As for Ali didn't he serve time in gaol for refusing to join up? Hardly draft dodging. In my book he will always be the greatest boxer of all time. My good friend* who was European and North American heavyweight wrestling champion in the 70's says that, in the sport, he is widely regarded as the best ever.
*Geoff Portz (http://members.fortunecity.com/furnacehot/portz/portz.htm)
Seamus Fermanagh
11-13-2005, 04:22
Certainly the among the best ever in terms of ring skills and speed. Fantastic endurance, high tolerance for pain, and better hitting power than most gave him credit for.
"Best ever" titles are hard to assess in boxing, since a fighter can only go up against a limited number of opponents and if they're all tomato cans it'll be harder to say how good that fighter is.
All time best?:
Ali, Joe Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Armstrong, Robinson, Jack Johnson, Leonard, Sullivan...but with moern rules I'd give the edge to Ali for sure.
Kaiser of Arabia
11-13-2005, 04:30
Greatest Boxer?
Jake LaMotta or Rocky Marciano.
Best one still fighting is def. Vlad. Klitschko.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-13-2005, 08:17
Certainly the among the best ever in terms of ring skills and speed. Fantastic endurance, high tolerance for pain, and better hitting power than most gave him credit for.
His record
TOTAL FIGHTS: 61
WON : 56(91.8%)
LOST : 5( 8.2%)
KO'S : 37(60.7%)
3 of his 5 losses were in his last 4 fights when he was long past his prime. Up until then he was 55 and 2.
You left out by far the greatest personality and self promoter in boxing history. The poems with the predictions before the fight were unreal. As was his delivery.
Cassius Clay before his bout vs. Archie Moore (1962)
When you come to the fight
dont't block the halls
And don't block the door
For y'all may go home
After round four
Clay Prediction before first Liston bout
King Liston will stay
Until he meets Cassius Clay
Moore fell in four
Liston in eight
I believe theseall came true.
http://student.cs.ucc.ie/~ptd1/images/alilist3k.jpg
Cassius Clay before the first Liston-bout).
Clay comes out to meet Liston
And Liston starts to retreat
If Liston goes back any further
He'll end up in a ringside seat.
Clay swings with a left,
Clay swings with a right,
Look at young Cassius
Carry the fight.
Liston keeps backing
But there's not enough room
It's a matter of time.
There, Clay lowers the boom.
Now Clay swings with a right,
What a beautiful swing,
And the punch raises the bear,
Clear out of the ring.
Liston is still rising
And the ref wears a frown,
For he can't start counting,
Till Sonny comes down.
Now Liston disappears from view.
The crowd is getting frantic,
But our radar stations have picked him up.
He's somewhere over the Atlantic.
Who would have thought
When they came to the fight
That they'd witness the launching
of a human satellite!
Yes, the crowd did not dream
When they laid down their money
That they would see
A total eclipse of the Sonny!
I am the greatest!
Tribesman
11-13-2005, 10:50
Hes opposed to war and killing not violence. Theres a huge difference. In fact I dont even no if thats why he objected.
Maybe he objected because he had listened to LBJs recorded conversations and realised that the whole war was based on Bull .~;) :hide:
Seamus Fermanagh
11-13-2005, 14:12
Not only did most of the losses come late -- and way past his prime -- but in the other two: there were some who thought that Frazier did not win and Norton managed to break Ali's jaw in the first half of the fight, and Ali still went the distance~:eek: .
I always liked LaMotta, but his ring-skills make Marciano look like Ali. LaMotta didn't have the power of a Marciano, but managed to win because he just wouldn't stop no matter what you did to him (I think Stallone styled Balboa on this). LaMotta won because nobody could endure more pain than he did.
I always wonder what a Leonard v Robinson fight -- both in their prime -- would have been like. Pure artistry I'm guessin'. Of course, since I also like brawls, I'd like to see Foreman v. Marciano in their prime too (fight wouldn't go 5 rounds, but what a spectacle).
Conscientous objector. Man of principles. Bovine dung. Ali was probably terrified of the prospect of serving in Vietnam and hid behind his newfound faith as an excuse.
Ahh, casting aspersions with no basis in fact.
I must be in the Backroom...
If Ali had fled to Canada to avoid the draft then I'd have to agree with the title of this thread, but I have some measure of respect for any man willing to serve time for his convictions (pun intended). Regardless of why he refused, he served time in jail and then endured a host of criticism for his decision. Right or wrong, America should be about freedom, even if only the freedom to choose jail time over military service.
Bush also honored Carol Burnett and Alan Greenspan, two other great Americans. Ali inspired more than a few inner city youth (code for black kids) to do more than drugs and father unwanted babies. I knew a couple of guys back then who felt like Ali gave them a little lift in their lives.
There are only a few worthless Americans; those who suck from the system without contributing, those who fail to learn the truth and beauty of what our system can and should be, and those who hate others simply because they disagree.
ichi:bow:
Strike For The South
11-14-2005, 04:11
Ali took his lumps like a man. He gave up the best years of his carrer to sit in jail and unlike some men he stood up for what he belivied. If you ask me he is the epitome of a ture american
Gawain of Orkeny
11-14-2005, 06:46
If you ask me he is the epitome of a ture american
Yup he came from nothing and made himeself one of the most famous men in history. Not bad for a poor black kid from the south. The american dream come true.
yesdachi
11-14-2005, 17:48
I think he would be a lot more vocal about the state of the world if he were in better health. His mind seems sharp but his damn body wont let him express himself, I have seen him joking and playing with kids but I think he gets too frustrated and embarrassed when dealing with most adults. Also his wife (very nice lady) and family are pretty protective of him, keeping him from doing a lot of things he would probably like to do.~:)
master of the puppets
11-14-2005, 18:05
muhammad ali, my favorite boxer ever, i wonder if the FBI would have tackled an old man with parkinsens disease if he had struck bush.
LeftEyeNine
11-14-2005, 18:51
My unnoticed topic's 2 cents about the incident itself..
Muhammad Ali, my man... Though he looks dead already, it's obvious that he did not.. I guess Bush will be sending special forces to break into Ali's house and look for nukes right after that..
Maybe, he just sat down and thought that :
" Okay, he's suffering Parkinson severely. But what's wrong with me ?... Ah yes ! I knew that cracker did more than taking my breath ! "
Ali is paying off his love for boxing with Parkinson disease already. So I highly doubt that he lacked guts to go to Vietnam. (I heard that boxers who take repeated knocks to their heads have a higher probability to catch Parkinson)
After all, Bush was being accused of his black discrimination with his previous government. And after the last election, he is just trying to be "pretty" (e.g. Condoleezza Rice).. Muhammad Ali being handed a heavy medal was another example of that.. That's all that I can see from overseas.. Bush is like a fool schoolboy pretending to be smart..
I just resemble the following boy to Bush :
<Pic Removed Due To Moderation Rules. Apologies>
This time he messed with the wrong guy, and he got his answer back in moments..
Gawain of Orkeny
11-14-2005, 19:06
I just resemble the following boy to Bush :
pic removed due to forum rules - Ser Clegane
You really think he sees you that way?
LeftEyeNine
11-14-2005, 19:15
I just resemble the following boy to Bush
That may be a grammatical mistake, wise man. Sorry.. Though you already know what I tried to mean..
P.S. He'd regret it if he did such.. Though I could not do it any better than what Muhammad Ali did.. ~D
https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3351/aliknocksbushoff9bl.jpg
AntiochusIII
11-15-2005, 00:16
Fallacy. America did not declare war on Germanny because they killed Jews and other minorities.BP is right. America did not declare war on Germany because of the slaughter of Jews and other minorities...
Seriously.
The official reason was Pearl Harbor.
Sorry for OT.
I'm a strict constructionist in this case, hey. ~;)
And Ali is the man in the ring; besides, drafts were illegal until the time of Lincoln. And still, I would dodge the draft if it ever comes to me. Drafts, in a country that claims its main principle to be freedom, are contradictory as they come. No patriotic nonsense please: it is basically forcing people to fight a war for you. They send people off to die; don't try to act macho when you never have to face the real thing. (For those who did not fight; those who did, well, explain your point if you happen to agree with the draft) Bush, by the way, didn't face the real thing...but...hey, it's self-preservation of a boy with the silver spoon in his mouth. Even I can't blame him for that...until he started trying to score political points with his "service"...
Since Andrew Jackson, or even George Washington, as some might say, the American public proves its fallacy through its continuous fascination with war heroes--why don't honor some anti-war heroes already? ~;)
I always get a kick out of the fact that liberalsThere we go again. We all know liberals are evil, foolish, dumb, tree-hugging, homosexual cowards. Anything new?
Conscientous objector. Man of principles. Bovine dung. Ali was probably terrified of the prospect of serving in Vietnam and hid behind his newfound faith as an excuse.And what if he is terrified? I'm not even sure what he actually felt. But if he really was terrified, what is wrong with being human?
....
BTW, Panzer. Your post demonstrates your support for oppression. Did you ever read Leviathan?
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 01:33
BP is right. America did not declare war on Germany because of the slaughter of Jews and other minorities...
Seriously.
The official reason was Pearl Harbor.
Sure hes right but no one ever said that was the reason we declared war on Germany.
AntiochusIII
11-15-2005, 01:39
Sure hes right but no one ever said that was the reason we declared war on Germany.You did not, but Taffy and Redleg immediately responded to that statement by BP's with their own, I presume, accusations. ("You'd need to check your.." and "that's even funnier..")
Hence my argument that, literally, BP's statement is correct.
Kralizec
11-15-2005, 01:41
Germany declared war on America, not the other way around.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-15-2005, 01:41
and to think I thought that the U.S. had war declared on THEM by Germany after Pearl Harbor.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-15-2005, 01:43
Antiochus, quit being a presumptious jerk.
I am a history graduate, masters degree etc.
I was merely pointing out that NOBODY had suggested that the USA declared war on Germany because of the Jews etc. except for in BP's head.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 01:43
You did not, but Taffy and Redleg immediately responded to that statement by BP's with their own, I presume, accusations. ("You'd need to check your.." and "that's even funnier..")
No your the funny one. They were saying that no one claimed thats why we declared war on Germany or even mentioned it other than BP. Go check the posts prior to those your talking about.
Adrian II
11-15-2005, 01:43
Sure hes right but no one ever said that was the reason we declared war on Germany.Nor was it Pearl Harbor. The reason was that Germany declared war first (http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germwar.html).
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 01:45
Nor was it Pearl harbor. The reason was that Germany declared war first.
No kidding. But do you think they would have done so if Japan didnt attack us first? No Pearl Harbor no declaration of war from Germany. Also I was trying to be kind and all I was really agreeing to is that we did not declare war on Germany because of the Jews. In that I am correct
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-15-2005, 01:45
A2, I think he's got the message now that 3 of us have pointed that out.
Kralizec
11-15-2005, 01:48
No kidding. But do you think they would have done so if Japan didnt attack us first? No Pearl Harbor no declaration of war from Germany.
Undoubtedly not.
I've also wondered for a long time what would have happened if the Japanese attacked the SU along with Germany, would the 2 axis powers have crushed them? After that they'd have their hands free for Brittain and the US...
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 02:03
I've also wondered for a long time what would have happened if the Japanese attacked the SU along with Germany, would the 2 axis powers have crushed them? After that they'd have their hands free for Brittain and the US...
Ive brought this up in the monastary a few times. IMO they would have crushed Russia.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-15-2005, 02:29
Interesting point:
FDR was, in effect, already engaged in a naval war against Germany in the North Atlantic for at least 5 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
However, nothing in the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo "Axis" alliance required the other countries to aid in one of their defensive alliance partner's attacks on another power. Italy, for example remained neutral in WWII until they saw the chance to cheap France after Dunkirk. Germany need not have declared war, and FDR would not have had the leverage to go after Germany as well as Japan without such a declaration. FDR was more than happy to accomodate them -- and honor the Germany first policy agreed upon with Winnie -- the moment Germany's declaration allowed him to do so.
Just where would that have left things....hmmmm. Gingrich/Forstchen provide one possible scenario in 1945.
ArcticSonata
11-15-2005, 02:37
I personally have nothing against Ali, but it does kind of Amaze me that same people who will bash Bush's record and say that he did nothing in the military or anything else, will say Ali absence the Military is fine. Bush in the Miltary but not being sent over seas ( like many other service men stationed in the US at time of war.) but he is a spoiled white boy. Ali Dodges the Draft and can get away with it, infact ever draft dodger is fine, but Bush was'nt staioned abroad, though he served and he is a coward. A little bit of double standards don't you think.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 02:40
but Bush was'nt staioned abroad, though he served and he is a coward. A little bit of double standards don't you think.
There has never been a coward that flew an F-102. Also Ali nor Bush ever dodged the draft.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-15-2005, 02:40
FASCIST!!!
~D
only joking
edit: in response to AS rather than Gawain.
ArcticSonata
11-15-2005, 03:02
There has never been a coward that flew an F-102. Also Ali nor Bush ever dodged the draft.
Maybe I stated that wrong Some People here have claimed that Bush was a coward but I was not saying Bush was a coward, I hope thats not what you thought I said and I definitely did not say Bush Doged the Draft. What I am saying is people here claim that when others, who broke the law and did not to go to Nam it was ok, but you can attack Bush even if he did his job.
AntiochusIII
11-15-2005, 05:20
Maybe I stated that wrong Some People here have claimed that Bush was a coward but I was not saying Bush was a coward, I hope thats not what you thought I said and I definitely did not say Bush Doged the Draft. What I am saying is people here claim that when others, who broke the law and did not to go to Nam it was ok, but you can attack Bush even if he did his job.Bush not fighting in Vietnam because he's in the National Guard airforce is an absolute non-issue for many of us until he tried to score political points with him "serving in the military during the Vietnam War." That spin for points pisses many people off. Then again, the dems are no better: Kerry attacked Bush continuously during the 2004 campaign as a "coward" and, as has been said before, a "draft dodger"; of course, he attacked back, and the mudslinging...is tiring.
But hey, they're politicians. ~:handball:
Antiochus, quit being a presumptious jerk.
I am a history graduate, masters degree etc.Good lord, I am a jerk now. You know, I'd like it if a girl calls me that (they always carry double meaning ~D ). But you, as a presumption I've made, is a heterosexual man, so it's a little creepy, I presume. ~:joker:
You are a history graduate, masters degree, etc, eh? Amazing! Why tell me? I did not dispute your credentials, did I? And I used "presume" for a reason, by the way, to presume the meaning of a phrase/message/sentence/word/blah before explanations are made. Jerk I am, I presume, but I do not make things personal.
Oh yes, and BP's statement is still valid literally, even though not contextually. America did not declare war on Germany on the cause of the Holocaust. ~;p
Nor was it Pearl Harbor. The reason was that Germany declared war first.
A2, I think he's got the message now that 3 of us have pointed that out.I've got the message, though clearly a neutral delivery with source where I could find more information for my ignorant brain cells (or non-hostile, even though a little biting, without source) is a basic etiquette I appreciate. Thanks, Adrian, and others too. I see that there is much to learn for me, even for the basic timeline of World War II's details, but hey, sixteen years and a bit more I still have time. ~;)
And, Gawain, the "funnier" thing: that's Redleg's original comment on BP's post, not me against anybody. I'm just "paraphrasing" what they (he and Taff) posted.
solypsist
11-15-2005, 20:09
hey guys!! what's going on in this thread?
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3981/heyguys5ho.jpg
Reverend Joe
11-15-2005, 20:25
I am confused and scared.
Adrian II
11-15-2005, 20:33
I am deeply shocked.
yesdachi
11-15-2005, 20:43
hey guys!! what's going on in this thread?
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3981/heyguys5ho.jpg
I don’t think that is the proper way to spell “HAY GUYS”. HAY is like the hay a cow eats, they should have used HEY because thaAAAAaaaa those are all guys in there!!~:eek:
I don’t think that is the proper way to spell “HAY GUYS”. HAY is like the hay a cow eats, they should have used HEY because thaAAAAaaaa those are all guys in there!!~:eek:
I think it reinforces the silliness of the whole thing.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
11-15-2005, 22:11
A3:
I was being very presumptious. I figured that you were implying that I considered the plight of the Jews to be why the U.S. went to war against Nazi Germany. That's why I mentioned that I know my history quite well thank you very much.
anyway, if you were not implying that then I do apologise.
~:)
~:grouphug:
LOL - if your going to quote me as saying something - take it in context of what was stated, not what you believe it to state. I could explain it to you AntiochusIII but it seems it might of sailed right over your headd.
You did not, but Taffy and Redleg immediately responded to that statement by BP's with their own, I presume, accusations. ("You'd need to check your.." and "that's even funnier..")
I will give you a hint it was not an accusation - nor was it an aassumption on my part. It was a statement given the nature of Gaiwan's comment and BP's retort.
Then you are in serious need of a few history lessons. Do you think invading Germany helped protect the Jews imprisoned there or were they still treated the same after we liberated the country? In fact the same can be said of all of ocuppied Europe at the time.
and
Fallacy. America did not declare war on Germanny because they killed Jews and other minorities
Now did Gaiwan state that the United States declared war on Germany because of the killing of Jews or did he state what is in the quote?
Ask yourself the question very carefully - and you will get the point of my comment.
Naw its funnier as written - foot in mouth disease is common today.
Have a nice day - and I hope you actually figure it out without resorting to the typical hyperbole that I have seen so far expressed in this thread about Ali.
AntiochusIII
11-16-2005, 00:29
A3:
I was being very presumptious. I figured that you were implying that I considered the plight of the Jews to be why the U.S. went to war against Nazi Germany. That's why I mentioned that I know my history quite well thank you very much.
anyway, if you were not implying that then I do apologise.
~:)
~:grouphug:I apologize, too, if there is any misconception on my part that offends you.
:bow:
LOL - if your going to quote me as saying something - take it in context of what was stated, not what you believe it to state. I could explain it to you AntiochusIII but it seems it might of sailed right over your headd.LOL indeed that you would use a comment like this: "it seems it might of [have? - me] sailed right over your head[d]" in order to state your point. Quite hostile, are we? And I did use "presume" not for nothing. To "pre-assume" is the easiest way of describing it. It was there, in case I need to explain clearly, to state my doubt about my own interpretation of the conversation. Alas. Right over my head indeed, so much I got flamed for it. ~:rolleyes:
Now did Gaiwan state that the United States declared war on Germany because of the killing of Jews or did he state what is in the quote?Might I bring you the attention of this:
You did notThis was my response to Gawain's "wondering" why I seemed to imply to him that he stated that "America declared war on Germany because of the killing of Jews..."
foot in mouth disease is common todayThat comment...alas...is it your newly-developed posting style lately to resort to hostile metaphors and sarcasm to ridicule another person? That is uncalled-for. In fact, I'd admit here that I do not understand the point of adding that phrase--or the meaning of that phrase. Or the whole point of the "that's even funnier..." post.
And what is this hyperbole you're talking about?
Have a nice dayYou too. :bow:
P.S. Soly, your pic is, as always, disturbing; it's a bit too Backroom for me. :)
LOL indeed that you would use a comment like this: "it seems it might of [have? - me] sailed right over your head[d]" in order to state your point. Quite hostile, are we? And I did use "presume" not for nothing. To "pre-assume" is the easiest way of describing it. It was there, in case I need to explain clearly, to state my doubt about my own interpretation of the conversation. Alas. Right over my head indeed, so much I got flamed for it. ~:rolleyes:
A figure of speech is all it is. Which means you missed the meaning of the comment. If you take that as a hostile comment - then you are indeed having a bad day - nor do you understand humor. Again read the comments in the context of what and how they were stated. If you want to see hostile posts from me - I can make them hostile to the point that there is no doubt that there hostile. Using a metaphor of sailing over your head is one that is far from hostile it is one of humor - but I can be very hostile if you so desire.
Might I bring you the attention of this:
This was my response to Gawain's "wondering" why I seemed to imply to him that he stated that "America declared war on Germany because of the killing of Jews..
Not revelant to the discussion of your misunderstanding my comment.
.That comment...alas...is it your newly-developed posting style lately to resort to hostile metaphors and sarcasm to ridicule another person? That is uncalled-for. In fact, I'd admit here that I do not understand the point of adding that phrase--or the meaning of that phrase. Or the whole point of the "that's even funnier..." post.
And therefor the point of it sailed over your head is an apted metaphor - not a hostile one at all. If you believe its a hostile comment then your actually not very mature are you? (now that is a hostile comment. Hopefully you can now tell the difference.)
And what is this hyperbole you're talking about?
Take a look at your post and you will find it.
~:rolleyes:
Reverend Joe
11-16-2005, 02:33
hey guys!! what's going on in this thread?
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3981/heyguys5ho.jpg
I think this is a slightly more pressing issue. God in heaven.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-16-2005, 04:08
What's the bid deal. We've got one chap with lots of body hair and two that are thinning up top. 'Bout par for the course I expect.
solypsist
11-16-2005, 04:42
it's a pic from the last Org moderator gathering.
not meant to derail - just to hopefully add some levity to some serious discussion that seems to be getting on a personal level (or not.)
Papewaio
11-16-2005, 04:48
I was about to say that is the only *insert name for cat here* they are going to get...
Seamus Fermanagh
11-16-2005, 15:42
I was about to say that is the only *insert name for cat here* they are going to get...
....Ah so that bit of charming slang has currency in the Antipodes as well.
hey guys!! what's going on in this thread?
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3981/heyguys5ho.jpg
Who is who in the pic? ~:confused:
Devastatin Dave
11-16-2005, 16:21
hey guys!! what's going on in this thread?
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3981/heyguys5ho.jpg
Now that guy in the costume deserves a medal more than Cassius.~D
Papewaio
11-17-2005, 01:49
The really sad thing is it wasn't a jacuzzi ... we had a lot of mexican, beans, onions and eggs. ~D ~:joker:
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