Economics of the Golden Horde: How can I get those? [Archive]

Grond

11-10-2005, 23:48

The Khan regularly rolls into town with a super army of 30-50 thousand troops. He usually slices through a few dozen provinces, then settles down to consolidate his little kingdom. It's annoying and horrific if you're on the east side of the map.

Now, I thought something is a little fishy. Say the Khan shows up with 50,000 troops. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Assuming, arguendo, that those troops are purely peasants (and we know they're not), that's 250 units worth of peasanty happiness. At 75 florins a turn, those peasants eat up 18,750 florins worth of whale fat each year. Now, if we make an assumption that those are hayburners and their maintenance is more about 150 florins per troop (on the low side, really), that's 625 troops of 80 horsemen, for a yearly cost of 93,750 florins.

In most of my games, I could sustain that rate for MAYBE 6 turns, at the most, before I'm out of money and options.

So, how the hell does he do it? Or is he just broke from the first turn, and not creating new units? Does the Khan have a huge war chest in the beginning? If the poor bastard in landlocked economically-challenged Poland has to live on 12 kopecs a day, then the bastard Khan ought to also.

Maybe this is all clarified in one of the mods that lets you play the Horde. Are these numbers close, or am I mistaking things?

Feanaro

11-11-2005, 02:03

Best as I can tell, the A.I. is just way better than you at investment banking. Or they cheat. :D

I see things like this, on a smaller scale, all the time. In my longest running game yet(HRE, played over a year... yeah, I'm slow), the Italians have been sitting on Sicily with a stack and a half of units. Over four princes sucking cavalry sized amounts, along with sundry peasants 'n spearmen. They make something like 100 florins in that province.

In my Scottish VI campaign(I wish they had an option for the Scotch-Irish. As it is, playing the Irish kinda sucks. I can't believe they short changed the makers of such fine whiskey.), the Picts re-emerged on the little island north-west of England(I'm a Yank, I can't keep track of all the funky British names). Two full stacks. Only half the men are peasants. They sat there for over two decades, until their king keeled over without any heirs.

In both cases no one talked about inflation, unemployment, rampant wage differences, or how monarchies are, like, totally not cool. No Maynard Keynes fans came along to propose that the crown intervene, Adam Smith didn't mention an invisible hand, Marx didn't shout anything about the proletariet. I guess some medieval people didn't need "food" or "money", they ate dirt. So grandpa WASN'T lying about how horrid it used to be when he was little and sex was just a twinkle in God's eye, not to be invented for another fifty years.

antisocialmunky

11-11-2005, 04:13

They start with enough money to pay that 40,000 florin ransom for their Khan.

miho

11-11-2005, 08:36

I just think they're broke. Once I played with them and I never had more than 2000 florins in my treasury until I conquered Constantinople.

Ironside

11-11-2005, 08:40

Ludens

11-11-2005, 15:39

They are broke.

Using -ian command and god mode, I've seen factions with -200.000 in thier treassury, as they never disbands troops to get the economy in order.

Never tried the horde that way, but I've never seen them build troops. That's why their army withers so fast.
Indeed. Troops don't desert when their leader runs out of cash; it simply means there will be no recruitment anymore. Not that this is very important for the Horde: they cannot recruit any units anyway, appart from steppe cavalry and some basic infantry.

Incidentally, Horde cavalry and infantry have a very low upkeep (probably reflecting their nomadic status).

They start with enough money to pay that 40,000 florin ransom for their Khan.
Factions always pay the ransom for the faction leader if he has no heirs. They only refuse when they are out of cash and there is a heir available.

Grey_Fox

11-11-2005, 19:18

I've modded the Horde to be playable, and they can build all their units. However they never do because they are broke.

NodachiSam

11-12-2005, 04:00

Theoretically, after a long while they might get a small second wind as their armies get massacred to a payable level. I should add, by that time in the game they won't too much of a factor.

Budwise

11-12-2005, 10:15

miho

11-12-2005, 10:45

I never really been scared of the Horde honestly. Even if I start on the eastside because I know how and when they will come and I know that if I can set them up so that other factions will soften them first. Then they aren't a real threat to me. Just slaughter their troops, don't ransom back anything and they will soon be too weak to do anything.
Yes I agree. In my current Sicilian game they are already weakened form fighting the Russians, Byz and the Turks. They're on 20% of their original armies just 20 years after they arrived. I'm surprised that Russians managed to hold them off. They usually get swept away early.

Ludens

11-12-2005, 15:24

I've modded the Horde to be playable, and they can build all their units. However they never do because they are broke.
:embarassed: Ahem, yes, you are right. I apparently consulted the wrong tech tree.

Deus Ex

11-13-2005, 17:12

Is it posible to mod the game and make the date the Horde shows up more random? Since we all know when they will come knocking - it is much easier to prepare for them.

A range of 30 years could make that more interesting - if you set up your 5 stacks of horde killers too early you just pay for them to sit there waiting...

just a thought...

DE

miho

11-13-2005, 17:17

Weebeast

11-13-2005, 17:48

I heard it's hardcoded. Unlike the Burgundians and Swiss, Golden Horde will always appear in 1230.

miho

11-13-2005, 20:52

I heard it's hardcoded. Unlike the Burgundians and Swiss, Golden Horde will always appear in 1230.
That may be because really they did arrive in 1230.

mfberg

11-14-2005, 16:42

I have only played one game where the Horde did not go into the red immediately. I was Almo/High/Expert and the Horde marched through the east, took over through Saxony, to Constantinople, and down to Syria and all the Middle East. They were actually making money from both raiding and trading. I had to take out their royal line a couple of times to keep them down.
The rest of the games they go into immediate bankruptcy and bog down because they don't hire any accountants to keep their money flowing.

mfberg

lugh

11-14-2005, 17:41

It's the AI models fault. They don't use a standard one so don't pay any attention to economics at all.
Try changing the faction_type to muslin expansionary. They conquered as far as Germany and Constantinople, consolidated a little and then went nuts and invaded the Spain via Africa while I munched throught their Asian holdings.

Weebeast

11-14-2005, 19:34

That may be because really they did arrive in 1230.
Actually they arrived earlier than that. In fact, the infamous Kalka River battle happened in 1223. I just gotta agree with Deus Ex that they should not always appear in the same year. I love shock factor. ~D

Anyway, I've seen a mongol ship floating in Black Sea in my Turkish campaign. If the surrounding factions are weak but the cities are rich during the invasion then Golden Horde shall rule.

miho

11-14-2005, 23:33

I agree that suprise factor would be great. And also they could appear in randomly selected provinces. Not always in Kazaar, ...

dgfred

11-15-2005, 04:30

Isn't it true that you can possibly capture Kazar quickly, build it up with all
of the coolest stuff, and put several large stacks of troops there= massive
Horde will appear. ~:eek: That seems extra-challenging ~:cool: :knight:

lugh

11-15-2005, 12:01

Isn't it true that you can possibly capture Kazar quickly, build it up with all
of the coolest stuff, and put several large stacks of troops there= massive
Horde will appear.
Yeah, I remember that thread, can't find it though.~:confused: I could've sworn I'd posted in it, but it's not in my subscribed threads.
Long story short, the player spammed as many untis as he could and managed to place them in KHazar just before the Mongols arrived. Ot was pretty dissapointing, it had been discussed in a few thread on the mongols but he was the first to do it, we were all expecting 100k+, I think it was about 25-30k in the end, mostly low end troops since the province wasn't teched.
Now, as the Russians you might be able to get the province up to higher fort with silver armour maybe, that might affect the troop quality, but I doubt it'll affect the numbers.

Pericles

11-15-2005, 15:03

For the Golden Horde, it might help if the faction type is changed to expansionary and then give the Horde 5,000,000 florins.

A well financed Horde might be a bit tougher to play against... :charge:

miho

11-15-2005, 15:06

For the Golden Horde, it might help if the faction type is changed to expansionary and then give the Horde 5,000,000 florins.

A well finaced Horde might be a bit tougher to play against... :charge:
Then they really would be a worthy adversary.

Grey_Fox

11-15-2005, 15:13

It won't make much of a difference since they'll only spam peasants at you. What the AI really needs is teched up provinces.

English assassin

11-15-2005, 15:49

Long story short, the player spammed as many untis as he could and managed to place them in KHazar just before the Mongols arrived.

I did this a while back, to annoy the Byzantines, although I certainly wasn't the first because I got the idea from someone else on the Org I think. I dumped loads of peasants in by sea as the English in 1229. Then I went back to attacking Spain and watched the fun.

It does work. Stuff Khazar full of cheap units and you get a superhorde. The unit mix is the same as usual though, maybe it would have been better if you stock Khazar with good troops but that sort of defeats the purpose.

Vladimir

11-15-2005, 15:56

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.

miho

11-15-2005, 16:47

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.
I would check but I don't know where to look. It would be a good idea that they wouldn't appear in every campaign.

Ludens

11-15-2005, 18:07

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.
I don't think so. As far as I know, the horde appearance is just a scripted "faction re-emergance".

Spamming peasants in Khazar does increase the Horde's numbers, but perhaps there is an upper limit. For an even greater challenge, put a military academy, master swordsmith and armourer and a cathedral + relinquiry (or grand monsque and ribat) in Khazar. The horde will now have full upgrades, making their units even thougher.

lugh

11-16-2005, 16:24

I'm pretty sure there is a limit and that the numbers don't increase geometrically or anything.
IIRC the guy who threaded his attempts outnumbered the Mongols and ended up just removing all the spam units since it was a horror to organise the pre-battle.
I can't remember if it was EA, but I think the guy was newer

antisocialmunky

11-16-2005, 23:28

If you want a super horde, you need to get atleast gold level armourers and all the morale builds. That makes them ridiculous.

bretwalda

11-17-2005, 12:18

Every Horde can be beaten with a full stack of Varangian Guards (or Ghazi or your fav axe troops) with a 9* general if retreated to the fortress you carefully pre-built. The horde will siege without any siege equipment and you will easily roll over. Just don't leave the fort.

Grey_Fox

11-17-2005, 14:26

I did that in one campaign (VI) and the beggars assaulted the very next turn. Was very very long.

bretwalda

11-17-2005, 15:52

I did that in one campaign (VI) and the beggars assaulted the very next turn. Was very very long.

I see, I wasn't clear enough. That's the point: Since the Horde does not have an own province it will assault the fortress the next turn no matter what. A nice stack of VG with an awesome general can withstand any attack - and you have unlimited firepower from the fortress.

Being more on topic: although the GH troops have very low upkeep (GH warriors are iirc in par with peasants) they have zillions of troops so if they don't conquer, ransom and pilage soon they will be running debt.

GH are also dumb: if the human player is in reach they will attack no matter what odds. (I was sitting in Georgia with a kick-*** army of Byz: 6k composed of silver plate VG, ArmoredSP, v2 Treb, v2 PornoCav, etc - xl mod) and yet they attacked me instead of killing the Kievians that were stretched wide on the plains, spread much more thin on the steppe and on more favorable terrain.

I said that because I was suggesting to sweep the steppes before to clear the resistence but not take the forts. But it seems that you wont get the desired result (GH carving out an empire) because they will attack you anyway.

Eternal Champion

11-17-2005, 18:22

GH are also dumb: if the human player is in reach they will attack no matter what odds.

Yep, everytime. In my current Danish campaign the English took most of the plains using a couple crusades. They had nothing but a bunch of small 100-200 man, beat up armies everywhere. What do the Horde do? Drive straight through two provinces to attack my 3k-4k sized army, 3 years in a row. They took massive loses everytime before taking a couple year break, before then attacking 2 more years in a row!

antisocialmunky

11-17-2005, 22:24

dgfred

11-18-2005, 16:04

When I play a Byzantine game in high, I cede the eastern-most former Turkish provinces and use the horde to bash the Eggies. Just have a few princesses handy and keep on their good side. It's pretty fun to watch Golden Horde HA cut through Africa and Europe.

I'm playing the Byz now, and this seems like a strategy I might like ~;) .
What provinces do you give up- Georgia, Edessa, Syria and what else? ~:confused: Do they ever NOT take the bait and hit Rum, Treb and
Lesser Armenia or do you guard them and give away princesses? Do you
build up much in those eastern-most provinces, or do you keep the buildings
to a minimum? I've always played HRE, Danes, French, Spanish or Egypt,
and have little experience with the Byz.

miho

11-18-2005, 16:23

What provinces do you give up- Georgia, Edessa, Syria and what else?
And Khazaar. You should keep the buildings to a minimum as they get destroyed in the war and you don't want to give them a province where they can train troops, so it might be wise to even destroy all the buildings in there.

bretwalda

11-18-2005, 16:49

I don't give up Syria!!! I want those 5* assassins!!!

:D

miho

11-18-2005, 16:55

Well they appear in smaller numbers in Georgia, Edessa, Syria so you can fight them off easily.

dgfred

11-18-2005, 17:32

Yeah, but if you want them to take on the Egyptians or to go west vs the
Poles/Russians/Hungarians you will need to avoid battle with them :duel: .

bretwalda

11-18-2005, 19:42

Exactly. If you want them to kill the other you shoud get out of the way and be allies with them. OTOH Syria is a must. So die Horde, die!

dgfred

11-18-2005, 20:03

I like those assassins too ~:cool: . So I guess you better decide pretty early
whether to build up those provinces to get the things you want, or leave them be to 'bait' the Horde ~;) .

antisocialmunky

11-19-2005, 00:51

5 star assassins are pretty easy to get IMHO, just let them sit in a port. The Pope usually sends enough guys to get them to 5-7 star pretty quick.

NodachiSam

11-19-2005, 06:34

A port with or without border forst?

miho

11-19-2005, 10:47

A port with or without border forst?
Without borderforts if it isn't your province and if it's your province the bf don't matter.

Geezer57

11-21-2005, 05:54

Without borderforts if it isn't your province and if it's your province the bf don't matter.
If you lurk your assassin/spy in a port province (of your own) with a Border Fort, the BF will always go first against enemy agents - your agent will build up extremely slowly, if at all. Limit yourself to no more than a Watch Tower, on the other hand, and quick promotions will occur.

Also helps to lurk multiple guys - if the first one fails, there are others to take up the slack. One of them should always get to the incoming rival agents.

lugh

11-25-2005, 15:15

[quote=lugh]Yeah, I remember that thread, can't find it though.~:confused:
Long story short, the player spammed as many untis as he could and managed to place them in KHazar just before the Mongols arrived.[quote]
I found the thread if anyone's interested.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54233

Looks like the cap is rather low. If anyone has any screenis vs the horde that have a higher number of Mongols than this, I'd be interested in them. Logs or saved battles too.

antisocialmunky

11-25-2005, 20:21

A master armourer always helps.

lugh

11-28-2005, 15:53

To improve their numbers? I thought the upgrades just gave them better armour etc etc?
Damnit, I'll have to go play a new campaign just to find out now...:charge:

Ludens

11-28-2005, 21:40

To improve their numbers? I thought the upgrades just gave them better armour etc etc?
It won't increase their numbers, but if you think normal Mongol Heavies are though, try gold armed/armoured Mongol Heavies. :hide:

antisocialmunky

11-28-2005, 22:23

I don't think Khazar supports weaponsmiths though. I'm sure you could mod them to have 100 strong cavalry units.

lugh

11-29-2005, 12:10

I've always had more trouble with their HAs, at least the Heavies will give you a fight! Then again, I've never really found an effective way to fight against HAs of any stripe. I can fight with 'em fine. In my Spanish campaign, my undefeated 9* super army got itself trounced last night 'cause I didn't have enough cavalry to chase all the damn Boyars down.

Eternal Champion

11-29-2005, 14:45

I found if you just sit tight the Horde's HA's will come to you. They will just sit there out of their range and let your Arbs shoot them to pieces. Unless your under a time restriction why would you chase them down? Even vanilla foot archers out range HA's.

ajaxfetish

11-29-2005, 16:34

Of course if it's one of those 4-hour mega-battles against the horde it's really easy to run out of ammo on all your archer units long before the waves of horse archers stop coming. Then you get to try chasing them down, hiding in the trees and hoping they disappear, or standing your ground and getting whittled down without being able to retaliate.

Ajax