Legal Worrys

[Just A Girl]

What kind of rules are their at distributing things like This as prizes?
2.5 cm = 1inch

*removed pics*-Sasaki

They are Letter openers.

mesurements :

Knife 1

Total Length 33cm
Blade Length 20cm

Knife 2

Total Length 27cm
Blade Length 17cm

Knife 3

Total Length 23cm
Blade Length 15cm
-------------------------------------------------------
or maby these.



These are Minature swords

Sword 1
Total Length 24cm
Blade Length 11cmm


Sword 2
Total Length 29cm
Blade Length 17cm


Sword 3
Total Length 35cm
Blade Length 21cm
-----------------------------------------------------
or these. Also minituar swords.


Sword 1
Total Length 24cm
Blade Length 11cmm


Sword 2
Total Length 29cm
Blade Length 17cm


Sword 3
Total Length 35cm
Blade Length 21cm
---------------------------------------------------

Or even this.



Its a wooden training katana.
100cm or 40 inches.

Im woried as under 16's could possibly Join and win, so i dunno about the legality of this stuff.


Also Which would you beleve to be the most Desirable out of the selection,

[Haudegen]

To give an answer it would be necessary that you tell us in which nation you´re living, since these rules differ.

[Just A Girl]

dont think it matters about me sending them Its other people receving them thats gonna be the matter,
And they could be any where.

[Haudegen]

Well, then these people who receive the weapons should find out for themselves, if they´re allowed to have that kind of weapon in their own countries.

But in this case it makes no sense to answer to your question in general beacuse there are around 200 nations on earth and you can´t expect anyone here to know all the different laws.

As far as I know in Germany the weapons would be legal if they didn´t have a sharp edge ... ~;)

[Drisos]

:jawdrop:

Wow! That looks awesome... now I'm sure going to do my best 200%!!

mmmm. I, GaiJin, Trajan, you, Mystic and Cha are all 16 years or older. Ottos is not, and about YoJimbo I don't know. But I'll make sure they don't win! ~D j/k... they'll kick me in first round ~:mecry:

[Haudegen]

I´ve been thinking about this problem a bit more and I want to give some practical advice for yourself.

In any case you should warn the winners of your tournament to inform themselves about the laws concerning weapons in their own countries, before you send them the items. However it would be much safer to allow only people to participate who confirmed that they don´t get any problems related with the weapons, eventually even have their parents agreeing to this. Who knows, what can happen if parents get angry .... ~:mecry:

I think if you do what I proposed, you should be mostly safe from legal dangers, because you are able to prove that you handled this difficult matter with enough care. And that is sufficient in most nations to be free of any liability. However: I am not a lawyer (yet), if you really want to be safe, you should ask a real lawyer.

Bastard Operator

[Haudegen]

PS: The parental agreeing should be given in a form, that is somehow trustworthy, for example a piece of paper with the parents´subscription on it. A simple "OK-button" in an online-form might not be sufficient to prove that you were careful enough ... Problems over problems.

I don´t want to discourage you, I think your idea is basically very nice. But my honest opinion is: It´s not worth the trouble you risk to get in by doing this. How about giving some kind of "coupons" for local weapon dealers. That way it would make things much easier for you.

[Togakure]

I've seen some very nice statuettes of samurai that were reasonably priced. These wouldn't cause legal problems and I'm sure the contestants would enjoy having one. Anything relating to samurai that wasn't a weapon would be similar--tea or sake sets, miniature kabuto (helmets) or armor, fans, noren, Hata (flags) etc. Something to consider.

Something else to consider: prizes might intensify the competition ... and the behaviors that go along with it. Complete rules and expectations regarding behaviors on and off the field, and benevolent but firm enforcement of these, would be important, I think.

[Just A Girl]

so the Bladed orniments/letter openers Will probably be a No.. due to age and stuff.
Which is a shame as They are Very reasonably priced.
i had planned on getting The smaller items engraved.
with something like...

-STW Tournie Champion-
- ----Player Name---- -

So i would have liked to be able to use the letter openers. (there the white ones on a stand)

but apart from that..
How's about the training katana? (the last pic)
Its made from wood.

Im prety shure that When i was a kid 6 or so years old I had some sort of wooden sword that i played with, or a steel table leg or something.

So i dont see how/why the wooden training katana could be frowned upon.
But Would that need to be subjected to the same age restriction?

Also Toga....
Could you send me a link for these other items?
So i can see if they are within the budget i am setting.
and im not trying to imply that they arent.. But obiously the prize should be desirable.

so I would like to browse any potential prize to make shure that I would be as happy to see them arive as i would one of the ones i have short listed.
:)

Thanx.


p.s

As for parental concent,

If the bladed wepons are an option as a prize, i guess i would Really need parental concent,
Writen comformation exetera that could be forged,

but if I were to give away The wooden training katana.
Could i get away with having an application form for tourniment entry.
Which would have a breif description of the prize and the following options

"I am over 16/18" tick box.
"I am under 18/16 and have parental concent"

[Just A Girl]

Would this work ok?
http://www.shoguntw.2ya.com/app.htm

I beleve i would only be able to do this if I was giving away the wooden katanna...
Or is their still a problem With giving that away?

[Wilbo]

Hello!

I would suggest that a wooden training sword would be the best prize as I do not believe sticks to be illegal in any country. They are also very cool.

I would suggest a Bokken, which is a solid oak sword in the shape of a katana.
Alternatively, you could purchase a Shinai, which is what they use in Kendo and is made of flexible bamboo strips so that it can be used for whacking people.
OR, for a really cool prize you could purchase a solid wood Naginata! Unfortunately, these are hard to get hold of and very expensive to ship :D

In my opinion, the Bokken is the nicest looking of the above, easiest to keep, cheapest and best reflects the weapon employed in Shogun.

For example: http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/

[Togakure]

Unfortunately this is not true. Bokken are indeed classified as "exotic" weapons in some States (United). Some bokken have rounded tips, some are pointed. Both are extremely deadly in the hands of a trained practitioner.

I was informed about their weapon status some years ago. I left my apartment with mine to assist a woman who was screaming because she was being accosted by a very large man (I saw them from my balcony). It turned out that he was her "boyfriend," and a security guard (a retired police officer) got there just before I did. He seemed more concerned about me when I approached, than them, lol. I was amicable and cooperative of course, and he didn't make a big deal about it, but he did caution me. If he wanted to "throw the book at me," he could have written me up for brandishing a deadly weapon. If I had taken an aggressive posture, it would have been assault with a deadly weapon.

***

A jo (short) staff would perhaps be a bit more "gray," as it could be reasonably described as a walking stick. However, if it went to court, you can bet the opposing lawyer would draw attention to the fact that it is a martial arts weapon, and if the person who had used it had a history of martial training ....

***

Incidentally, iirc, it is told that Musashi, Japan's famous (and only "real") Kensai, was only defeated once--by a monk wielding a short staff. Also, he was well known for defeating sword-wielding enemies, armed only with a bokken (and once at least, with just an oar).

[Haudegen]

As for parental concent,

If the bladed wepons are an option as a prize, i guess i would Really need parental concent,
Writen comformation exetera that could be forged,

but if I were to give away The wooden training katana.
Could i get away with having an application form for tourniment entry.
Which would have a breif description of the prize and the following options

"I am over 16/18" tick box.
"I am under 18/16 and have parental concent"

Just learned new word: parental concent ~;) , o.k I´m not a native speaker obviously ...

Well, the problem is this: You give away potentially dangerous items to people you don´t really know and probably have never seen in real life. If somebody is getting injured with these weapons, who is responsible for little Timmy (aged 10 years) who got this pointy thing and is acting careless with it?

I think it is your duty to make sure, that you cannot be deceived by non-adults who pretend that they are adults or have the parental concent. And the big (probably unsolvable) problem for you is to create a system that avoids this. Even if the participants send you copies of their personal identity cards, deception would be quite easy, cause you don´t really know, who´s really behind that. They may have borrowed their fathers´identity card ...

Of course you could say: I don´t think that STW-players are cheaters and would never do such things. But remember, it´s at your own risk, and not to forget: At the risk of the victim who might get injured by the knife/sword/whatever.

Bastard Operator

[Just A Girl]

well i would like to give away the wooden training katana as a prize.

ones exactly like this 100cm/40 inches long.
and its made from wood. "pointed tip"
*removed pics*-Sasaki

but its classed as an offencive weapon somplaces?
(i supose if i was to go balistic with 1 i could see a lot of people geting hurt, But its suposed to be used as a "trophy")

the form i made asks your general age.
18+ or less than 18 with parental consent

And thats as bout as far as i can or want to go in age verification.

but the little disclaimer in the application dosent help?

the agreement...

"AGREEMENT.

I agree To abide by the rules of the tournament. I also understand that Failure to comply with the rules of the tournament could result in my removal from the competition.
further more any prizes that i win from the tournament will be used solely for decorative purposes.

Tick the box if you agree to the above"

heres a look at a working yet unfinished copy of the application form
http://www.##################/app.htm

[Haudegen]

This sounds ok to me. The potential danger of wooden things is much lower. And almost any item could be abused, when thrown at another person. Don´t think that this could be a special problem.

I have never heard of a place where wooden decorative weapons are considered as offensive weapons.

[Wilbo]

Incidentally, iirc, it is told that Musashi, Japan's famous (and only "real") Kensai, was only defeated once--by a monk wielding a short staff. Also, he was well known for defeating sword-wielding enemies, armed only with a bokken (and once at least, with just an oar).

haha, I was also going to mention about Musashi :D

In fact, the Samurai Musashi defeated with the Oar was Sasaki Kojiro.

[Just A Girl]

Kenzai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I beleve Musashi beat him up with an oar As Sasaki Kojiro Was known for using an extra long katana.

But to address the point I beleve that was being made.
I cant see many people Taking on samurai with a training katana they could win from my tournament,
"i keep forgeting to call them bokken"
And Im happy to inform the "Saftey 1st people"
i dont think i will be Giving out Oars as prizes :)

:bow:

[Just A Girl]

Ok,

Looks like we kind of figured this out,

Just to recap though,
If all aplicants Must fill in the application form befor joining the tournament.
http://www.##################/app.htm

I can Give these things away right?
*removed pics*-Sasaki

Im just checking That No 1 can give me a legal reason as to why I cannot do this,
I really dont want to go see my solicitor The guy charges a fortun,
he's a good solicitor,probably the second best In my area,
But I aint forking out any cash, Expeshialy if i dont get arested 1st,

Any way, I need to go order a few of these bokken this time next week,

So 7 days to reply and tell me why i cant do it,
or it will be to late

:bow:

[Togakure]

Can you send it to someone? Yes, obviously.

Is it legal to own in the area where the person you send it to lives? I would say Probably, but not definitely.

Is it legal to use in a public area without some form of permit in the area where the person you send it to lives? Maybe, maybe not. It's not legal to use them publicly in the areas I have lived in.

Could you be held legally liable if it were abused by the person you sent it to? I would say yes--particularly if that person was a minor (whether they told you they were an adult or not ...).

Is the disclaimer you posted likely to hold up in court if someone does abuse it? I would say probably not, particularly if someone was injured in the incident.

In my humble opinion, you are taking a big gamble. There are many samurai-oriented things that you could offer as prizes that are not weapons and could not be construed as such. These would be a wiser choice. But, as long as you are willing to accept repsonsibility for any consequences, do as you will m8, and good luck.

[Just A Girl]

Well i dont see how it could be my fault if they Use it for anything other that Decorative purpouses,

the agreement says.


further more any prizes that i win from the tournament will be used solely for decorative purposes."

And they must agree to that or they dont get to play for a prize,

I dont think ive ever heard of a shop owner being arested becous some 1 used a kitchen knife bought from their store for a murder,

I just dunno,
What if i got a stone statue and a minor won Then clubed some 1 over the head with it,
I dont think id be liable then either.

I dont beleve that i can do much more than Make them accept the agreement.
It is a leagal contract in a way,

If i bought a dvd player and it says Dont play cd's in this dvd player,
and then i did put a cd in and it broke, Their disclaimer would Legaly cover them,

Why would my disclaimer be any diferent?

Also.
I asked several posts ago if you could suply me with a link to these objects you described,
I dont think you could have read it,

I would really like to give away the bokken.

i dont see how giving this away and some 1 using it incorectly, is any diferent from me giving away a walking stick and some 1 using it incorrectly,

Maby i need to work a bit on the disclaimer.

i dont realy relish thinking of seting up some sort of age verification system,
There are a few ways on the internet you can veryfi your age, But I refuse to be a party to the companys that provide this service.
"adult pass or sumthing"
and neither Am i Even tempted to set up a credit card age veryfier,
becous honestly if something went wrong and details were lost missplaced or sent somewhere I Would not be happy with my self.

Il hapily look through other oriental items that could be prizes.
But if i would not want to win them,
you can guarantee i wont be selecting them as prizes.


"can you tell i really want to give away these bokken's :)"

[Just A Girl]

ok researched some stuff,

1. Carrying bokken that's not contained in some sort of sealed bag is illegal

2. A DISCLAIMER: The articles on this page are sold only for collection purposes or for supervised training in the art of Chinese Wu Shu. KWON is not respnsible for any illegal or improper use of the items found on this page. Some weapons may be prohibited in your area. Please check state and local restrictions before ordering.


KWON is not respnsible for any illegal or improper use of the items found on this page
Prehaps i need to add a similar line to my disclaimer "seems to work fine for them"


3. A nother DISLAIMER :All weapons can only be sold to people over the age of 18. A copy of the buyer’s driver’s license must be sent with E-mail.

I aint done researching yet though,

And the more i think of it,
I really cant see a minor joining the tournament, Stating they have parental consent when they do not...

Becous if they win HOW are they going to explain a 40 inch long sword that their parents had to sign for on delivery??

Prehaps if i Make a statement something to the afect of.

"Remember All under 18's You need parental consent to enter this tournament,
And dont lie Becous if you win you will nedd to explain to your parents Why they had to sign for a 40 inch long Sword shaped package whilst you were in school,"

Prheaps that would scare off the liers.

[Haudegen]

Could you be held legally liable if it were abused by the person you sent it to? I would say yes--particularly if that person was a minor (whether they told you they were an adult or not ...).

I don´t completely agree with this, though a real legal opinion is hardly possible, because nobody here knows which legal system is applicable.

My opinion is that we have to differentiate between items with a high danger potential (bladed weapons) and "normal" items (wooden decorative items). Example: A kid finds his daddy´s credit card, orders a cd from amazon.com and abuses it by throwing it at another person.

Could you imagine that amazon is liable in this situation? I couldn´t imagine this, because if amazon had to bear such high risks, they wouldn´t exist anymore. The entire area of telecommunication based shopping business would be dead.

But I admit, that I have a viewing from the knowledge of German law, I can´t give any proper infos about US tort law, neither about any other nations´ laws. But as far as I know from my lessons in comparative law, it is a generally recognized fact that no legal system wants borderless liabilities that would paralyze the entire economy.

[Togakure]

I'm not in the legal profession; my opinion is just that--an opinion. My current roommate is an attorney. I haven't mentioned this issue to him; He has some other pressing issues at hand.

I think maybe the key point is the definition of "decorative." A bokken (shown in the picture) is not considered decorative here. It is a martial arts training weapon. The letter openers, on the otherhand, are decorative and I wouldn't think they'd be considered weapons.

Anywhoo ... I'm a bit out of my league here, and my comments have been offered out of concern for my friend. Good luck, and I hope things go smoothly.

[Haudegen]

@TogakureOjonin: I didn´t mean to sound rude. I´m very happy that any other person dares to say his opinion here.

I must admit, I overlooked your statement that a Bokken is considered a weapon in some states. This makes my example look weak, cause a cd is under no circumstances a weapon. I apologize for my mistake.

I´ll try a summary then:

- Things that are meant to be placed on a desk and be decorative, are no big problem, though parental concent should be requested, plus a disclaimer.

- Things that are meant for training purposes, and therefore are considered weapons in some states: Better not to use them as prizes, because the risks concerning non-adults are not controllable.

- Things that can be considered as tools, for example the letter opener. I think these items are too similar to weapons and therefore may be considered as weapons in some places. The problem with non-adults is therefore here the same.

[Togakure]

Hey no problem here ~:). You have been helpful and informative. Actually I'm glad you said what you did because it prompted me to say that I'm not a lawyer (thank gawd! lol). I think Just a Girl has gotten some nice feedback here and is in a better position to make a wise decision, so it's all good.

[Wilbo]

How about a Japanese style fan? Easy to show off and every Taisho / Daimyo in the game would have one!

[Drisos]

I love the prize... but I won't be able to get it here... before I'm 18 I think.

gah... I won't win anyway ~:joker:

[Just A Girl]

Well Seems like were REALLY getting some where now,

Maby if we had more than 1 prize?
Or a choice of WHICH would you liek to win....

And if you select the bokken you must Check the legality in your area....

I think i can afoard a selection of 2-3 prizes 1 bokken , and a nother 2 similar priced items,

So again i will need links if any 1 has any for places i can go look for These things,

And do you think the above solution will work poperly,

For instance drisos does not seem to want to win the bokken untill he is 18.
So he could chose to win a ummm oriental figure. or sumthing,

I supose minors could Again beat my age restrictions and win a bokken,
But again they would need parental consent,
and im prety shure When the post arives Lil johny's parents would want a word.

Please suply me with some links of sites you think have nice prizes,
They can be in the uk or the usa.

Thanx

[Haudegen]

Well Seems like were REALLY getting some where now,

Sorry if it looked all a bit like speculation. But this whole matter IS highly speculative, because an opinion about a legal question outside a specific legal system is per definitionem impossible.

To develop some rules just out of some good reasons (and not out of specific laws, as a lawyer is used to do it) is a task, that may take some time, especially if you really want to be safe from legal dangers. It´s a different kind of thinking to me but I enjoy it. ;)

But I must state this once more, because it´s important: To me it´s only fun here, but you are the one who is taking the risk. A real lawyer has an insurance, that will pay you compensation if he tells you nonsense. For me, it is impossible to give any guarantees. Therefore my first rule is: Better safe than sorry.



I supose minors could Again beat my age restrictions and win a bokken,
But again they would need parental consent,
and im prety shure When the post arives Lil johny's parents would want a word.


I don´t think it´s a good idea to rely on the parents in this. The parents´ duty to supervise their kids doesn´t priviledge you to be less careful.

This kind of things (Bokken) is very attractive for minors. And it´s a fact that many minors may be among the participants, cause it´s a game after all. Therefore I think a high degree of caution is necessary here.

[Wilbo]

The real question is:

Togakure, if a confrontation has arose between you and said wife-beater, would you have held your Bokken high and used skillfully-dealt classical vertical cuts, or swang it wildly like a hillbilly with a baseball bat?

[Togakure]

If absolutely necessary, I would have used it to defend myself. I would have tried to not use it if at all possible. I had it with me because I was practicing with it in my spare room at the time that I heard the commotion. Given that the guy was probably twice my weight and a foot taller than me, I thought it prudent to take it with me, just in case.

The goal would have been to restore harmony in that situation, without resorting to violence. As it happens, this is what occured, I didn't have to get directly involved, and I learned something valuable in the process. It all worked out well.

[Wilbo]

Yawn! Well obviously so, i thought it was interesting as the Bokken is obviously an offensive weapon, how would you employ it... In fact I was actually simply trying to find out if you knew how to use a Bokken... Since you said that you were practicing with it, I can safely presume you do indeed study a martial way / art of some kind :D

[Just A Girl]

no links :(
LOL. All i can find are Ornimenmtal bokken.
and every 1 tels me there weapons
Although these guys seem to be able to sell them as ornimental stuff.

C'mon guys lol....
Give me a clue. where should i look for other stuff.

[Drisos]

For instance drisos does not seem to want to win the bokken untill he is 18.
So he could chose to win a ummm oriental figure. or sumthing

A great idea to let people choose... then I'd have no problems... I think I also found a way not to make my parents noticed the prize, so I don't have to explain where I got it ~:)~:joker:

most important for me is just having some fun games :bow:

[Ottos]

A great idea to let people choose... then I'd have no problems... I think I also found a way not to make my parents noticed the prize, so I don't have to explain where I got it ~:)~:joker:

most important for me is just having some fun games :bow:

Haha, why don't you want your parents to know... pherhaps caus you aren't allowed to play mp :bounce:

[Togakure]

Hmmm ... :spider:

[Drisos]

Hmmm ... :spider:

Lol toga!! this is exactly what I thought you'd reply to Ottos post... ~:joker: ~:cheers: I thought the same ~:)

And Ottos: No, just because you're such a weirdo.~;p (When you post crap I wil do as well)

[Togakure]

... And Ottos: No, just because you're such a weirdo.~;p (When you post crap I wil do as well)
HMMMMM ... ~:angry: ~:argue: ...

~;p

[Mystic]

My Thought on All This... Im My own Parent So I Decide :) But If i Were To Ever Use The Training Sword It Would be in My Back Yard And id be Alone And That Would Just Be For Training Uses Other then That I Wouldnt Use it On Anyone Unless It Was an Emergency... YOu Cant Do Much Damage With Wood anyway :) ... Ok I Lied If Used Right it Could Kill A Person But Im Sure Nobodys Is Participating in The Tournament To Win A Prize For Violent Purposes Just Work on The Warning And Everything Should Go Well Im Going To The Post office Tommorow While There i Will Check The Laws For Importing THings Of its Kind Though I Believe Its fine Its Better to Be Safe Then Sorry
Until Next Time :bow:
P.s Im A Member Now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wooooooooooooooo :) Had To Get That Out

[Drisos]

rofl again Toga ~:) :yes:

and congrats on membership Mystic... welcome to the stw forums! ~:) :bow:

[Mystic]

Ty .\,,/ ~:)

[master of the puppets]

thats so stupid, letter openers open letters, swords are weapons, and frankly i think sword should by displayed freely on the hip and carried about like metals of honor.

[Ottos]

I don't realy get it, what is your opinion again? ~:confused:
Do you mean that you think it's stupid that a sword could be a letter opener??

I would think it's cool.