View Full Version : Rice rebukes Iranian leader
Byzantine Prince
11-14-2005, 05:27
CNN - link (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/13/rice.mideast.ap/index.html)
Condoleezza Rice: Iran's government "has become more threatening, not less threatening."
How articulate. ~:rolleyes: Whatever schools she went to I suggest she get's her money back.
Even though this guy is a god-fan, I prefer him to Rice, or the Saudis. At least he doesn't make statements like that!
Adrian II
11-14-2005, 14:06
How articulate. ~:rolleyes: Whatever schools she went to I suggest she get's her money back.Actually that statement was rather eloquent, even though it probably originated with a speech-writer.
'When we look at a country like Iran we see an educated and sophisticated people who are the bearers of a great civilization. And we also see that as Iran's government has grown more divorced from the will of its citizens it has become more threatening, not less threatening.'Rice's confuzzled way of thinking usually transpires when she testifies in Congress and has to improvise and use her own words.
Well it seems someone or two someone's are jealous of a public person's education level.
Education
After studying piano at an Aspen music camp, Rice enrolled at the University of Denver, where her father both served as an assistant dean and taught a class called "The Black Experience in America." [1]
At age 15, Rice began classes with the goal of becoming a concert pianist. Her plans changed when she attended a course on international politics taught by Josef Korbel, the father of former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. This experience sparked her interest in the Soviet Union and international relations and led her to call Korbel, "one of the most central figures in my life" [2].
In 1974, at age 19, Rice earned her B.A. in political science (cum laude) and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver. In 1975, she obtained her Master's Degree from the University of Notre Dame. In 1976 she switched her party registration/affiliation to the Republican Party. She first worked in the State Department in 1977, during the Carter administration, as an intern in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. In 1981, at age 26, she received her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver. In addition to English, she speaks Russian, French, and Spanish.
[edit]
Academic career
Condoleezza RiceAt Stanford University, Rice was an Assistant Professor, Political Science (1981-1987), Associate Professor (1987-1993), tenured Professor of Political Science (1993-July 2000), (see [3]], Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Senior Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. She was a specialist on the former Soviet Union and gave lectures on the subject for the Berkeley-Stanford joint program led by U.C. Berkeley's George Breslauer in the mid-1980s. She also was an avid reader of Leo Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, and once told a friend she leaned toward the latter in her world view. She was quietly cerebral, friendly but decorous, and always popular among students. They often saw her exercising in the gym. From 1993 to 1999 she served as the Stanford Provost, the chief budget and academic officer of the university. Yet, she managed to maintain friendly contact with various student associations, such as the Venezuelan Student Organization. After departing to enter government service, she returned to Stanford in June 2002 to deliver the commencement address.
Rice is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004.
Rice has written or collaborated on several books, including Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995), The Gorbachev Era (1986), and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice
Adrian II
11-14-2005, 14:50
Well it seems someone or two someone's are jealous of a public person's education level.Oh, her academic record is fine, but she seems to have two problems that are real liabilities in political life:
She can not think on her feet
She remains stuck in a 'statist' view of international relations that belongs to the previous epoch of the Cold War about which she published so muchHence the undue emphasis of 'her' National Security Council on the need to remove Saddam as the supposed linchpin of international terrorism/jihadism. This territorial 'solution' which she advocated together with others only feeds the jihadist movement. Her work on German reunification under James Baker III was brilliant. Iraq's unification is a different ballgame...
Oh, her academic record is fine, but she seems to have two problems that are real liabilities in political life:
She can not think on her feet
And your perception on this is wrong - she does very well thinking on her own two feet. She might not be the greatest at it - but having watched her in front of Congress testifing she has a weak moments and she has her strong momments. Several times I watched her give as good as she got from several congressman.
2. She remains stuck in a 'statist' view of international relations that belongs to the previous epoch of the Cold War about which she published so muchHence the undue emphasis of 'her' National Security Council on the need to remove Saddam as the supposed linchpin of international terrorism/jihadism. This territorial 'solution' which she advocated together with others only feeds the jihadist movement. Her work on German reunification under James Baker III was brilliant. Iraq's unification is a different ballgame...
that doesn't make her as you stated in your first post now does it. Disagreeing with her politics is perfectly fine. Attacking her intelligence is something else enterily, especially when her acedemic career would show how idiotic such an attack is.
From the BBC
Last Updated: Thursday, 20 January, 2005, 16:09 GMT
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Profile: Condoleezza Rice
Ms Rice's intellectual brilliance is undisputed
Condoleezza Rice is the first black female to be appointed as US secretary of state.
She was also the first to occupy the key post of national security adviser.
She is the most academic member of the Bush foreign affairs team and - because of her gender, background and youth - one of the most distinctive.
Personally close to Mr Bush, she spends almost every weekend with the president and his wife Laura at Camp David.
She has been one of his key supporters during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and in the continuing war against terror.
Despite a somewhat stern demeanour, which has earned her the nickname "warrior princess", Ms Rice has consistently been one of the most popular members of the Bush administration and a proven ally for a president who came to office with little experience of foreign affairs.
Against all odds
Ms Rice was born in 1954 and grew up in Birmingham, Alabama under the shadow of segregation. Racism was so ingrained in her childhood that she says she hardly noticed it.
My parents had me absolutely convinced that, well, you may not be able to have a hamburger at Woolworth's but you can be president of the United States
US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice
When she was just eight years old, Ms Rice was standing inside her father's church when she felt the floor shake. A Ku Klux Klan bomb had exploded at a Baptist Church two blocks away, killing four young black girls, one of them her classmate since kindergarten.
She has often said that to get ahead, she had to be "twice as good", and her childhood chiselled her strong determination and self-respect.
Ms Rice's mother was a music teacher who taught her to play the piano. Her father was a pastor and college principal, who shared his enthusiasm for sport with his daughter.
Change of heart
In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Ms Rice said that despite growing up with racial segregation, personal expectations were high.
"My parents had me absolutely convinced that, well, you may not be able to have a hamburger at Woolworth's but you can be president of the United States," she said.
Rice is a close friend as well as political ally of Bush
Her parents taught her that education was the best armour against segregation and prejudice.
Regarded as one of America's brightest and best, Ms Rice went to the University of Denver at 15 and graduated with a degree in political science at the still tender age of 19.
A concert level pianist, she had originally enrolled as a music student, with the intention of becoming a classical pianist.
But while at Denver she came under the influence of Josef Korbel, a Czech refugee and father to the US' first woman secretary of state, Madeleine Albright.
Under his guidance, she became interested in international relations and the study of the Soviet Union and switched courses.
Testing times
A masters and doctorate followed and, at the age of 26, Ms Rice became a fellow at Stanford University's Centre for International Security and Arms Control.
After serving as the Soviet affairs adviser on Bush senior's National Security Council, Condoleezza Rice returned to Stanford in 1991 and, in 1993, became the youngest, the first female and first non-white provost.
Until her appointment as national security adviser, she was a member of several boards of directors, including that of the Chevron Corporation (which named one of its oil tankers Condoleezza Rice, but later renamed it Altair Voyager).
A concert level pianist, here Rice is accompanied by Yo Yo Ma
When the Bush administration came to power, her influence over early foreign policy strategy was considerable.
She led the tricky negotiations with Russia over missile defence, and is thought to have spearheaded the unilateralist tone of the first months of the Bush presidency.
But it was in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks in Washington and New York that she really proved her strength, standing staunchly by the president during the difficult days ahead and the subsequent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
She is thought to be one of the most significant creators of the controversial Bush doctrine of pre-emptive action against states thought to be a threat against the US.
"The United States has always reserved the right to try and diminish or to try to eliminate a threat before it is attacked," she stated firmly in an interview shortly before the war in Iraq.
But controversial as this view may be it has done nothing to diminish her popularity, both inside and outside the White House.
In fact, her steely determination in these times of conflict may serve her well as she prepares to take up the post of secretary of state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3609327.stm
Adrian II
11-14-2005, 15:26
Attacking her intelligence is something else enterily, especially when her acedemic career would show how idiotic such an attack is.And she has the wrong hairdresser as well. ~:cool:
And she has the wrong hairdresser as well. ~:cool:
Yes indeed she needs to fire her hairdresser - But then again she just might like that look. ~:eek:
Devastatin Dave
11-14-2005, 19:18
Typical liberals. Unless a black person is speaking ebonic, voting for democrats, are not self reliant, or blaming whitey for all their ills, liberals will attack them. She's off the plantation so I guess she's a "uncle Tom" or a "house nigger". I bet she'll be pelted with Oreo cookies soon. Who are the real racists?
Reverend Joe
11-14-2005, 19:40
Typical liberals. Unless a black person is speaking ebonic, voting for democrats, are not self reliant, or blaming whitey for all their ills, liberals will attack them. She's off the plantation so I guess she's a "uncle Tom" or a "house nigger". I bet she'll be pelted with Oreo cookies soon. Who are the real racists?
Dave, what the hell are you jabbering about? You need to stop eating jimson weeds when you post here.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-14-2005, 19:44
Dave, what the hell are you jabbering about? You need to stop eating jimson weeds when you post here.
Maybe you should lay off the drugs yourself and do a bit of research on the matter before accussing others of being delusional.
Goofball
11-14-2005, 20:06
Typical liberals. Unless a black person is speaking ebonic, voting for democrats, are not self reliant, or blaming whitey for all their ills, liberals will attack them. She's off the plantation so I guess she's a "uncle Tom" or a "house nigger". I bet she'll be pelted with Oreo cookies soon. Who are the real racists?
The real racists? How about these guys? I know they're not liberals, but they still fit the racist bill:
http://media-cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/rush.jpg
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/graphic/large/StromThurmond3.jpg
Gawain of Orkeny
11-14-2005, 20:08
Please show me how Rush is a racist. This is lunacy.
Ser Clegane
11-14-2005, 20:09
Actually, Dave, you are the first to make "race" an issue of this discussion.
As long as you cannot criticize a person without having to fear that others might accuse you that your criticism is based on race, and as long as you cannot give a very capable person a position in your cabinet without having to put up with people who say that you just did it to meet some "race quota" we apparently still have a long way to go on the road to real equal rights...
Nobody can dispute that Rice is a very intelligent and capable person and has earned her position - even if you disagree with her political poistion.
However, everybody has the right to criticize a person in the position she holds - and she has the "right" to be the target of mockery just as any other politician who holds a position like hers as long as this mockery focuses on what she does and not on her skin color.
Geoffrey S
11-14-2005, 20:18
Actually, Dave, you are the first to make "race" an issue of this discussion.
Hey, pre-emptive strike y'know?
Adrian II
11-14-2005, 20:20
Nobody can dispute that Rice is a very intelligent and capable person (..)I can.
Geoffrey S
11-14-2005, 20:21
On both counts or just the one?
Gawain of Orkeny
11-14-2005, 20:26
I can.
Hey we all make fools of ourselves sometimes.~:joker:
yesdachi
11-14-2005, 20:32
I can.
Pah-lease.~:rolleyes:
Devastatin Dave
11-14-2005, 21:09
Damn right I brought race into it. I can gurantee if she was a democrat or a black (which Clinton NEVER appointed an African American in ANY high office) appointed by Bill Clinton there would never be a thread about this statement. Shoes on the other foot this time...
BTW Adrian, you forgot to have Senator Byrd (D) on your little gallery. Not only was he once in the Klan, but also used the word "white niggers" on a news broadcast. Just another shining example of the lib double standard.
Who are the real racists? LIBERALS!!!!
Kralizec
11-14-2005, 21:10
Rice is smarter then Bush.
HA! ~;p
Ser Clegane
11-14-2005, 21:31
I can gurantee if she was a democrat or a black (which Clinton NEVER appointed an African American in ANY high office) appointed by Bill Clinton there would never be a thread about this statement.
If you think that this is about racism, I think the interesting question would rather be whether this thread would have been started if the statement had been made by e.g. Dick Cheney (or if a "conservative" would have started it about Kerry).
If the answer is "yes", then I do not see what the thread has to do with skin color. If the answer is "no" that you would have a point, Dave.
Quite frankly - I do not know the answer,
In the end it just seems to be rather petty to start a thread on a statement like this, regardless who made the statement.
Kralizec
11-14-2005, 21:35
DD, is there anyone specific in this thead who you think is racist?
If not, why bother bringing it up?
Adrian II
11-14-2005, 22:01
BTW Adrian, you forgot to have Senator Byrd (D) on your little gallery.That was Goofball's gallery.
@Geoffrey S
On the second count of course. ~;)
Tribesman
11-14-2005, 22:18
After studying piano at an Aspen music camp,
Wow , Condi went to band Camp , I wonder if she learnt any tricks with wind instuments .~;)
Hurin_Rules
11-14-2005, 22:49
Rice is no moron, but I don't think she's very good thinking on her feet. For the record, I don't think Hilary Clinton is either--she's very wooden. Anyway, Rice, like Bush, seems to find it hard to craft long sentences without prepared remarks to guide her. This is not always a big problem in academic forums--some professors just read their notes in class. It is much more of a problem in politics. I have to disagree with Redleg here-- when I watched her before congress, I didn't think she did very well. Then again, maybe Redleg was just comparing her to Bush. ~:)
After studying piano at an Aspen music camp,
Wow , Condi went to band Camp , I wonder if she learnt any tricks with wind instuments .~;)
No Doubt. ~:rolleyes:
Goofball
11-14-2005, 23:02
Damn right I brought race into it. I can gurantee if she was a democrat or a black (which Clinton NEVER appointed an African American in ANY high office) appointed by Bill Clinton there would never be a thread about this statement.
Objection, your honor!
Calls for speculation on the part of the witness!
Honestly Dave, how can you make a statement like that and expect anybody to take you seriously? You can not guarantee what anybody else will do. Cripes, based on your posts in this thread, I don't think you even know what you will do from one moment to the next.
BTW Adrian, you forgot to have Senator Byrd (D) on your little gallery. Not only was he once in the Klan, but also used the word "white niggers" on a news broadcast. Just another shining example of the lib double standard.
You're actually right Dave. Byrd is another excellent example of a conservative racist. I should have definitely included him in my first gallery.
Sorry to keep PWNing you like this BTW, but as others have pointed out you set up the racism straw man in this thread in the first place so you deserve everything you get.
It's a shame when your own straw man kicks your arse, isn't it...
The Black Ship
11-15-2005, 00:39
Actually Goofball, I'm not sure you're correct. Thurman and Byrd are Democrats, hardly considered in the conservative camp. Racists they are indeed, but they belong under the liberal umbrella. So you've used two out of three example incorrectly...
Please show me how Rush is a racist. This is lunacy.
He's alot of things- but I certainly don't think racist is one of them.
Goofball
11-15-2005, 01:14
Actually Goofball, I'm not sure you're correct. Thurman and Byrd are Democrats, hardly considered in the conservative camp. Racists they are indeed, but they belong under the liberal umbrella. So you've used two out of three example incorrectly...
Erm...
When was the last time you read a newspaper, Black Ship?
Thurmond has been a Republican since 1964. But that is beside the point. We were not talking about Democrats or Republicans; we were talking about conservatives and liberals. Just being a Republican does not automatically make one a conservative; nor does being a Democrat automatically make one a liberal.
Please tell me that you are not trying to imply that Thurmond is a liberal. He very clearly is about as conservative as they come.
Similarly, you ignored everything about Byrd except for the fact that he is a Democrat. If you examine the man's history, he is quite clearly a conservative. Some examples:
When defending the fact that he had been a Klan member, he said he had joined because "'because it offered excitement and because it was strongly opposed to communism." He was also strongly opposed to allowing gays to serve in the military, and was opposed to affirmative action. His voting record on abortion has also been slightly conservative leaning.
No, I think if you take a little more time to look at it, you'll realize that my examples were bang on.
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 01:29
Similarly, you ignored everything about Byrd except for the fact that he is a Democrat. If you examine the man's history, he is quite clearly a conservative. Some examples:
When defending the fact that he had been a Klan member, he said he had joined because "'because it offered excitement and because it was strongly opposed to communism." He was also strongly opposed to allowing gays to serve in the military, and was opposed to affirmative action. His voting record on abortion has also been slightly conservative leaning.
And the rest of his voting record? The mans about as liberal as they come. You must be dizzy from spinning so fast.
Goofball
11-15-2005, 01:38
And the rest of his voting record? The mans about as liberal as they come. You must be dizzy from spinning so fast.
Please enlighten me.
I am on the edge of my seat waiting to hear your explanation of how an anti-affirmative action, anti-gay, anti-communist, ex-Klansman can be called a liberal by any stretch of the imagination.
Do tell...
Gawain of Orkeny
11-15-2005, 02:19
Please enlighten me.
Lets start with one of your claims
His voting record on abortion has also been slightly conservative leaning.
Key Vote
Abortions at Overseas Military Facilities
Bill Number: S 936
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 07/10/1997
Sponsor:Amendment: Sen Murray, Patty [WA]; Original Bill: Sen Thurmond, Strom [SC]
Roll Call Number: 0167
Amendment Rejected (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted YES.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S AMDT 593 to S 936: To repeal the restriction on use of Department of Defense facilities for abortions.
Project Vote Smart's Synopsis:
Vote to adopt an amendment that lifts the ban on privately funded abortions at U.S. military facilities overseas
[/QUOTE]
Key Vote
Abortion Funding Amendment
Bill Number: S 1023
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 07/22/1997
Sponsor:Amendent: Sen DeWine, Mike [OH]; Original Bill: Sen Campbell, Ben Nighthorse [CO]
Roll Call Number: 0190
Amendment Adopted (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted NO.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S AMDT 936 to S 1023: To prohibit the use of funds to pay for an abortion or to pay for administrative expenses in connection with certain health plans that provide coverage for abortions.
Project Vote Smart's Synopsis:
Vote to pass an amendment to continue the ban on preventing federal health insurance policies from covering abortions except when the woman's life is in danger or the pregnancy is the result of incest or rape.
[/QUOTE]
Bill Number: S 1061
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 09/04/1997
Sponsor:Amendment: Sen Coats, Daniel [IN]; Original Bill: Sen Specter, Arlen [PA]
Roll Call Number: 0215
Amendment Rejected (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted NO.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S AMDT 1077 to S 1061: To prohibit the use of funds for research that utilizes human fetal tissue, cells, or organs that are obtained from a living or dead embryo or fetus during or after an induced abortion.
Project Vote Smart's Synopsis:
Vote to pass an amendment to prohibit the use of funds for research that utilizes human fetal tissue, cells, or organs that are obtained from an abortion.
Roe v. Wade Amendment
Bill Number: S 1692
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 10/21/1999
Sponsor:Amendment: Sen. Harkin, Tom [IA], Original Bill: Sen. Santorum, Rick [PA]
Roll Call Number: 0337
Amendment passed (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted YES.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S.AMDT.2321 to S 1692: To express the sense of Congress in support of the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.
Unintended Pregnancy Amendment
Bill Number: S Con Res 18
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 03/17/2005
Sponsor:Amendment: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY]; Original Bill: Sen. Gregg Judd [NH]
Roll Call Number: 0075
Amendment Rejected (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted YES.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S AMDT 244 to S Con Res 18: To expand access to preventive health care services that reduce unintended pregnancy (including teen pregnancy), reduce the number of abortions, and improve access to women's health care.
Yup hes very conservative on abortion all right. Now what other topics would you like to discuss?
Rice is no moron, but I don't think she's very good thinking on her feet. For the record, I don't think Hilary Clinton is either--she's very wooden. Anyway, Rice, like Bush, seems to find it hard to craft long sentences without prepared remarks to guide her. This is not always a big problem in academic forums--some professors just read their notes in class. It is much more of a problem in politics. I have to disagree with Redleg here-- when I watched her before congress, I didn't think she did very well. Then again, maybe Redleg was just comparing her to Bush. ~:)
Actually I was comparing her to the Senators that were asking the questions. She might not do well in a formal debate - but in Congress against Congressmen and women she did well enough.
Reverend Joe
11-15-2005, 17:16
Maybe you should lay off the drugs yourself and do a bit of research on the matter before accussing others of being delusional.
NEVER! I am, and shall forevermore remain, a drugged-up leftwing nutjob! GONZO LO VOLT! :furious3:
(grains of salt, man, grains of salt... but that was a pretty wierd statement from Dave. Kinda scared me.)
Edit: also, have you ever smoked a Jimsom weed? I hear they are like cheap opium- but they are also potentially lethal (That is what my research appears to show- but you know how accurate research can be with narcotics... ~:rolleyes:). Anyawy, they are more interesting than the random tripe flying around here by the handfull.
Maybe I'll just go to the frontroom and post a topic on Jimson weeds.
You really don't see anyone doing very well in those hearings, they are
usually cornered on subjects by congressmen and women with their own
agendas. Usually they are more concerned with looking good to their
home state and voters, instead of the job at hand ~:confused: . In what
I have seen of Ms Rice, she did ok. I have a problem with people, such as
T.Kennedy, telling others what would have been the right thing to do or
say and accusing others of falsehoods or lies ~:rolleyes: .
Goofball
11-15-2005, 18:30
Lets start with one of your claims
Key Vote
Abortion Funding Amendment
Bill Number: S 1023
Issue: Abortion Issues
Date: 07/22/1997
Sponsor:Amendent: Sen DeWine, Mike [OH]; Original Bill: Sen Campbell, Ben Nighthorse [CO]
Roll Call Number: 0190
Amendment Adopted (Senate)
How members voted
Senator Robert C. Byrd voted NO.
Read statements Senator Byrd made in this general time period.
Official Title of Legislation:
S AMDT 936 to S 1023: To prohibit the use of funds to pay for an abortion or to pay for administrative expenses in connection with certain health plans that provide coverage for abortions.
Project Vote Smart's Synopsis:
Vote to pass an amendment to continue the ban on preventing federal health insurance policies from covering abortions except when the woman's life is in danger or the pregnancy is the result of incest or rape.
Yup hes very conservative on abortion all right.
Yes, he is:
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)What's this? A liberal voting to ban partial birth abortions! But aren't you conservatives always telling us we liberals aren't happy unless we know a partial birth abortion is taking place somewhere?
Yep, this man is a die hard liberal...
~:rolleyes:
Now what other topics would you like to discuss?
How about these?
Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
Voted YES on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)Sorry my friend. What you've got yourself there is a conservative.
It's okay though, don't feel too bad about it. I realize that not all conservatives are racists. But the ones I've mentioned do happen to be racists (though I grant you that in Rush's case it is debatable).
But my whole point was to respond to Dave's rant about liberals being the "real racists." I think I've shown that racists reside in both camps, which was my aim from the beginning.
Kralizec
11-15-2005, 22:25
Exactly Goofball. I don't think it's a secret that many ex-klan members reside under the democrat umbrella. Republicans have them too. One needs only remember the king of all racists:
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/182/1982/640/richard-nixon-scarface.jpg
Tricky Dick Nixon. If there's a hell, I hope there's a special place in it just for him.
yesdachi
11-15-2005, 22:45
Tricky Dick Nixon. If there's a hell, I hope there's a special place in it just for him.
Sheese, what did Nixon do that was so bad for you to condemn him to hell?~:rolleyes:
(aside from being a politician, all of which will surely go to hell when they croak)
Kanamori
11-15-2005, 22:54
psst, Nixon was one of our best Presidents when it came to foreign policy.~;) He was wrong to try to cover those loyal to him though; they screwed up w/ watergate, and he screwed up trying to protect people he didn't give orders to act illegally.
Exactly Goofball. I don't think it's a secret that many ex-klan members reside under the democrat umbrella. Republicans have them too. One needs only remember the king of all racists:
Can you prove he was a racist - or are you just throwing out the accusation.
This article points out that he was far from a racist.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13493
Tricky Dick Nixon. If there's a hell, I hope there's a special place in it just for him.
Your entitled to your opinion - regardless of how wrong you are.
Kralizec
11-16-2005, 00:07
Sheese, what did Nixon do that was so bad for you to condemn him to hell?~:rolleyes:
(aside from being a politician, all of which will surely go to hell when they croak)
Are you serious ~:eek:
How about massive abuse of power- using intelligence agencies illegally to your political gain, trying to have the special prosecutor sent against you fired, refusing to turn over crucial evidence to court (namely the tapes, wich he later released- but cencored) and loads of other things equally serious but wich I can't remember right now.
Nixon was one of our best Presidents when it came to foreign policy
I can't disagree with that, especially because of the China relationst thing- also devilishly clever, creating a wedge between the two main communist powers. My beef with him isn't that he was incompetent or a bad administrator, but that he was a crook.
Can you prove he was a racist - or are you just throwing out the accusation.
This article points out that he was far from a racist.
The tapes wich contain conversations in the oval office and wich were eventually released to the court in severely edited form were full of Nixon cursing against jews and "niggers" .
The tapes wich contain conversations in the oval office and wich were eventually released to the court in severely edited form were full of Nixon cursing against jews and "niggers" .
Only makes him an anti-semantic (SP) and some degree of a racist. However that is not what you accused him of being. Lets see your words were One needs only remember the king of all racists
I would say that there have been far worst racists in governmental office then President Nixon. Especially given that while he might of spouted the racial names - he fulfilled the law in aspect to the Brown Decision of the Supreme Court. A king of racists would not have done what Nixon actually did while in office.
Was he a crook. Most definetly.
Was he prone to abusing the power of office - again most definetly.
Was he the King of Racists in the United States - nope there are governors that hold that dishonorable title - far more then Nixon ever could.
Kralizec
11-16-2005, 00:46
All right, I'll concede that there were worse racists them him in office. I added the "king of racists" part mostly for dramatic effect and wasn't meant to be taken literally, and I admit I got carried away and exaggerated.
Why did you say "it makes him an anti-semetic and somewhat of a racist"? Anti-semitism is just a specific racism isn't it?
"prone to abusing power" suggests a tendency towards it, but neglects to mention that he did abuse power in a grotesque, and unprecedented (as far as I'm aware of) manner.
And I find it...strange to even ask proof for that he was a racist- as if it wasn't obvious to anyone but the most ill informed.
Can you prove he was a racist - or are you just throwing out the accusation.
And I find it...strange to even ask proof for that he was a racist- as if it wasn't obvious to anyone but the most ill informed.
Because most people just throw out accusations of Racism without knowing if the individual is indeed a racist or not, especially politicians.
Growing up in South Texas around a bunch of racist idiots, Living in Arkansas and training soldiers in Lousiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Arkansas - I have seen racist individuals that would make an individual sudder with disgust at their bigot and idiotic views.
One can not call Nixon a racist when they review his politics in office, especially since he support most if not all legislation based upon civil rights that came before him while he was in office. If he was a racist - he held it pretty closely in check while in the Presidential office. Other then on the tapes and in his politicial campiagning in the South. And I would even hestate in stating he was an extreme racist - he used language to take an opporunity to take the vote away from the Democratic Party.
Most political analysis I have seen on Nixon steer clear of calling him a racist. Sort of like this one I found on the web. Not the best write up but close to many of the ones I have read before.
Pondering the question of Nixon being a racist or an opportunist, it seems clear to this columnist that Nixon was an opportunist and not necessarily a racist. The evidence is in Alabama’s voting record for the 1960 presidential election when Nixon ran against John F. Kennedy. In that election, Kennedy out-polled Nixon by a 3 to 2 margin. Surely, had Nixon been an orthodox racist, Alabama voters would have preferred him over John Kennedy, a rich, liberal Catholic from Massachusetts.
There is another reason that suggests the late President truly was not racist, at least not in the model of George Wallace. Wallace sought and received voter redemption from his racist past. Richard Nixon never felt the need to make amends, even for Watergate. He simply did not have the ideological timber of a racist. A racist must have deep ideological underpinnings, laminated with the strength to uphold those beliefs even when confronted with overwhelming contradictory evidence. Richard Nixon had neither.
http://www.majorcox.com/columns/nixon.htm
Now you can also find Write-ups like this about Nixon.
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.10.10/arts1.nixon.html
The revelation confirmed the worst suspicions of many longtime detractors. It dismayed his loyalists, especially those who were themselves Jewish. According to Nixon's speechwriter William Safire, several aides who had long tried to deny his animus toward Jews were distraught. Federal Reserve Chairman Arthur Burns, Safire noted, felt especially incensed about the ethnic slurs on the tapes. Leonard Garment, Herb Stein and Safire himself, for their part, all felt that sinking sensation in an especially personal way. "It fit perfectly with most Jews' suspicions of latent antisemitism in Nixon, which all of us had worked so hard to allay," noted Safire.
Ever since that bombshell, the White House tapes have been unforgiving to Nixon on the Jewish question. For all the historical treasures the tapes hold, they are mined most enthusiastically for Nixon's racial and religious slurs. With each batch that the National Archives releases — it began making the tapes public in 1996 — reporters excitedly note the most scandalous excerpts. One recently discovered exchange between Nixon and Reverend Billy Graham featured Graham lamenting the Jewish stranglehold on the news media and Nixon concurring with the reverend's assessment. There are dozens more.
It's hardly surprising that such statements still have the power to offend. It is surprising, though, that they retain the power to surprise, for Nixon's reputation as an antisemite long predates his presidency. As I discovered in my research for my book "Nixon's Shadow: The History of an Image," such concerns were not a sudden revelation by the White House recordings. On the contrary, they had dogged Nixon from virtually the start of his career.
Now as an anti-semite - Nixon was indeed one of the worst to actually make it to office - but I do believe there were other Presidents that could be compaired to him on the anti-semite issue.
Reverend Joe
11-16-2005, 01:52
But can't we all agree that he was an ass?
...Yes? ~:cheers:
...No? :embarassed: Come on... for the Great Gonzo? Maybe?
Kralizec
11-16-2005, 02:03
I suppose you're implying that anti-semitism is different from racism because jews can be defined as a religious group as well as an ethnic group? Fair enough, though whatever it is, it's just as bad.
About his feelings on black people, I guess we'll never know for certain what they were. Maybe the racial slurs were just a vent of frustration. Maybe Nixon did hold racist prejudices against blacks, but felt the wind of change and went along with it.
But yeah, let's just forget all of it and agree on that he was an ass ~:grouphug:
Adrian II
11-16-2005, 07:40
But can't we all agree that he was an ass?No, but he was a crook.
I suppose you're implying that anti-semitism is different from racism because jews can be defined as a religious group as well as an ethnic group? Fair enough, though whatever it is, it's just as bad.
Anti-semitism is indeed a different catergory as far as I am concerned - both are bad. Care to guess how many racial groups make up the Jewish Faith?
About his feelings on black people, I guess we'll never know for certain what they were. Maybe the racial slurs were just a vent of frustration. Maybe Nixon did hold racist prejudices against blacks, but felt the wind of change and went along with it.
Yep he was definetly an opporunist (SP).
But yeah, let's just forget all of it and agree on that he was an ass ~:grouphug:
Most politicians fit that description.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.