Strategy and Chess.

[aleh]

Alright, so I stopped playing RTW for a while(I believe no one here can blame me given that game's iffyness), but after trying my hand at some other stuff, I decided to go back to it. Anyway...I'm notoriously sucky at chess(could be because I just learned it, but whatever), but I seem to be good at RTW strategy(anywhere from medium to very hard)...And people say that folks who are good at chess are good at strategizing<sp???> and those who are bad at it, are bad at the other.....

So my question is, given your past experience, would you think that statement true? Am I seriously overestimating my abilities, or is chess overrated?

[Lord Winter]

Alright, so I stopped playing RTW for a while(I believe no one here can blame me given that game's iffyness), but after trying my hand at some other stuff, I decided to go back to it. Anyway...I'm notoriously sucky at chess(could be because I just learned it, but whatever), but I seem to be good at RTW strategy(anywhere from medium to very hard)...And people say that folks who are good at chess are good at strategizing<sp???> and those who are bad at it, are bad at the other.....

So my question is, given your past experience, would you think that statement true? Am I seriously overestimating my abilities, or is chess overrated?
Generly it is true but don't expect to be good imeditly. You must learn how and when to use each piece first.

[Kekvit Irae]

Chess is more about the placement of your pieces rather than their effectiveness against the enemy. You cant just zergrush the white king with your knights as you can in RTW.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

If you're using strategy in RTW, it's a good sign you're out out of Elite units.

~;p

[m52nickerson]

I play chess, and am horrid at it. But at MT (I don't have RT) a can defeat armies much larger then mine with a few strategic moves.

[Kekvit Irae]

If you're using strategy in RTW, it's a good sign you're out out of Elite units.

That is SO going into my sig :tongueg:

[Rilder]

If you're using strategy in RTW, it's a good sign you're out out of Elite units.

~;p

If your using Elite units in RTW, it's a good sign you're out of Strategy

:bow:

[pezhetairoi]

Well said.

I'm hopeless at Chess. I have been known to lose my queen in 4 turns flat.

But at the same time I am capable of routing 60 units' worth of experienced Roman pre-marians with only 18 of my own, newly recruited, in a single battle, and destroy almost all of them before they rout off the battlefield.

I am capable of striking the enemy where he least expects it, and striking where it hurts the most, while shielding my vulnerabilities from him on the campaign map through army placement.

I have conquered more than a third of the Mundus Magnus world by turn 100.

I have found ways to use all the famous tactics of all the famous generals of the ancient times in one way or another in my battles.

Ergo, just because you're bad at chess doesn't mean you're bad at strategy. Chess has no supply lines, outflankings, fire support and morale problems. in fact, RTW is a better test of strategic/tactical/operation thinking than chess is. Case closed, IMHO.

[Red Harvest]

Alright, so I stopped playing RTW for a while(I believe no one here can blame me given that game's iffyness), but after trying my hand at some other stuff, I decided to go back to it. Anyway...I'm notoriously sucky at chess(could be because I just learned it, but whatever), but I seem to be good at RTW strategy(anywhere from medium to very hard)...And people say that folks who are good at chess are good at strategizing<sp???> and those who are bad at it, are bad at the other.....

So my question is, given your past experience, would you think that statement true? Am I seriously overestimating my abilities, or is chess overrated?
You are overestimating RTW.

Chess requires far more forethought than RTW if you want to be any good at all at chess. The RTW AI can't give you a decent game as it doesn't even make great 1-ply decisions, while skilled chess players will be trying to anticipate at least 8 plies deep (and perhaps 16 plies in the endgame.) That depth is strategic thinking as well as tactical.

Now if you played true MP on the strategic map vs. humans, then you would have an idea how good you are. My money would always be on the better chess player winning (assuming equal experience in both games) and I've played my share of rated chess masters and experts in tournaments.

[SwordsMaster]

Red Harvest has a point. I'm a barely mediocre chess player, but I've been playing every day for about 3 months, and I can predict with some degree of accuracy the next 3-4 moves on the board. In RTW.... you don't really need to have that kind of thinking. I haven't played MP yet, but as far as SP the forethought you need is really and I mean really small.

[Ciaran]

Not that I´m a chess expert, but I know the basic moves. I agree with Red Harvest, also keep in mind that in chess you´ve got only one piece to move each turn while you can order about your units in the TW games at any time and in any quantity. Plus the fact that the AI can´t keep up with it.
I suppose programming an AI for the TW games that matches the one of a chess engine is something that could give you a trip to Stockholm, and indeed I do believe if there´s a Nobel prize in future for AI programming it´ll go to the game industry, the "ideal" AI for a game is way more complex than one for portfolio management, for example.

[AquaLurker]

Yeah man go try multiplayer!!! You will get hooked!!!

Against AI it is about reading their usual behaviour and exploiting it, against a human player like chess, you need alot pre planing and trying to anticipate your opponets tactics.

Be warned, you might begin to loath the AI and hate to go back to campaign.

[Puzz3D]

I played chess since I was 8 years old for 40 years. I played weekly in clubs and tournaments for about 25 years. I have good spacial imaging. I can remember whole games, exact positions and can play blindfolded. I have good hand/eye coordination which doesn't help much in chess, but is important in realtime computer games. After I stopped playing chess regularly I played online computer games like C&C, Warcraft, Doom, Quake and Counterstrike, and tried very hard to be good at those games, but I wasn't. Then STW became available, and I was good at it in online play from the very beginning.

I attribute this to my experience playing chess because I had learned to coordinate 16 pieces, could visualize the entire battlefield and I knew the importance of making a strategic plan in a tactical game. In STW, you have to use each unit individually but also coordinate all 16 of those units. You can't use the units one by one which doesn't work in chess either. It's bad to overlap units in STW, and in chess you can't overlap pieces. Fast reflexes wasn't the overriding factor in winning in STW, but you did have to assess and react to situations in a timely manner. You can play team games in STW which expands the strategic aspect to a level above chess.

In STW you have to protect your general, and in chess you have to protect your king. As you play, the number of units or pieces left diminishes with no way to replace those losses. The total number of units in STW is the same as the total number of pieces in chess, and the unit choice is limited to 4 functionally different types. STW has ranged, cav, spear and sword. Chess has the 4 different movement types of rook, knight, bishop and queen. So, the complexity of the task of coordination is similar. Both players choose from the same set of units as in chess. As a result, positional play is paramount because you can't get an advantage during the army purchase phase. It's the same in chess in that you gain an advantage by where you position your pieces. Since you can't simply rush the other player off the board in either STW or chess, you have to try to accumulate advantages in the conceptual areas of time, space, and force. You have to be constantly weighing the offensive and defensive capacity of the position until you have achieved a winning advantage.

So, I believe their is a lot of similarity in the thinking process used to play chess and to play STW. This similarity has steadily declined in each iteration of Total War beginning with the Mongol Invasion add-on and continuing through MTW/VI and RTW/BI. For RTW, I would say experience playing whack-a-mole is more useful than experience playing chess.

[Geoffrey S]

You are overestimating RTW.

Chess requires far more forethought than RTW if you want to be any good at all at chess. The RTW AI can't give you a decent game as it doesn't even make great 1-ply decisions, while skilled chess players will be trying to anticipate at least 8 plies deep (and perhaps 16 plies in the endgame.) That depth is strategic thinking as well as tactical.

Now if you played true MP on the strategic map vs. humans, then you would have an idea how good you are. My money would always be on the better chess player winning (assuming equal experience in both games) and I've played my share of rated chess masters and experts in tournaments.
Nailed it. RTW is, first and foremost, a game, and while more complex than most contemporaries doesn't come close to the complexity of thought needed to play chess well or make one good at real strategy; at best it makes someone into an armchair general, and there's more than enough of those to go around.

[ShadesWolf]

I play alot of chess and have always found that a few games before a MP session really helps. Its sets me thinking in the correct plain.

[aleh]

Alright, thanks for the answers guys and gals. But another question, what about the game Go? I hear it involves more strategy than chess, and I'm solely basing this on the fact that a computer program can't play it well from what I hear. So, to those who've played that before, if you're good at Go are you good at Strategy, and vice versa?

[antisocialmunky]

Go's a game about breaking attrition. The first person to get (two I think) more pieces than the opponent wins. It's not really modeled after fighting a war as it is just a game of predicting and countering with positional and spatial considerations.

[Orda Khan]

The RTW AI can't give you a decent game


I would say experience playing whack-a-mole is more useful

Both of these quotes are proved woefully wrong in an historical battle that I made.....where the AI CAN and WILL utterly destroy you and where, with sound strategy and tactical ability it is possible to win. Just for good measure, each battle is one mammoth struggle requiring total concentration and far more challenging than any MP battle I have played.

......Orda

[Grey_Fox]

Any chance of having a download Orda?

[Ciaran]

I don´t know about the historical battles in RTW, but in MTW they´re partly scripted, so once you know the script it´s not a challenge any more. That´s not strategy, that´s trial and error.

[Rilder]

I don´t know about the historical battles in RTW, but in MTW they´re partly scripted, so once you know the script it´s not a challenge any more. That´s not strategy, that´s trial and error.

He was infact talking about a historicle battle that he himself made.

[Red Harvest]

Both of these quotes are proved woefully wrong in an historical battle that I made.....where the AI CAN and WILL utterly destroy you and where, with sound strategy and tactical ability it is possible to win. Just for good measure, each battle is one mammoth struggle requiring total concentration and far more challenging than any MP battle I have played.

......Orda

No, your interpretation is what is woefully wrong. You are talking about a "battle" and referring to strategy. That is the tactical side of the game. RTW cannot give a good stategic challenge, period. You have to be heavily handicapped, facing so many enemies to make it a strategic challenge.

I've yet to see the AI do anything spectacular tactically either. Considering it won't even use its pila or war cry effectively at times, sends in its forces piece meal, can't use ranged units effectively, charges archers into my infantry, and charges its generals and cav into my spears, I don't find it much of a match at all.

[hellenes]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54704&page=10
Let us c how good ya r...

Hellenes

[Ciaran]

He was infact talking about a historicle battle that he himself made.
It still might rely on scripting, if making a historical battle in RTW is not different from MTW.