What is your opinion on the new units?

[Choco]

I just checked the last interview. Now we know the new units:

-Mongol Javelin
-Mongol Lancer
-Mongol Cavalry
-Mongol Granadier

-Battle Ninja
-Sword Master Kensai


The Mongol units look great for me. My only concern is if the Granadier could be way too much powerful... but in the interview it seems they will be very vulnerable too. So in general the Mongol units are OK and balanced in my opinion.


My problem is with the new japanese Units. I know well that Shogun is not a "Purist's 100% accuractely historic game". But I like that STW is a game based in historic facts and trying in general to be as realistic as possible and stick to those historic facts when possible and mixing that with playability.

So far so good.

But for me, the "Sword Master" and the "battle Ninja" stink of a game "going Hollywood".

The Kensai feature bothers me because I don't want to have an invencible Japanese Rambo in the game, killing everybody and never going down. Sheez! Just imagine when the usual chessier losers start fielding armies composed exclusively by Kensai. Get ready to face armies 100% Kensais.

The Battle Ninja bothers me because they should be weak in the melee because they should rely on stealh and speed instead of being crack soldiers.

And as it has been pointed, the chessy losers can use the Stealh feature to hide ninjas in the map forever.

However, I am giving the benefit of doubt to the new release. So far I admit the game rocks and the developers have addressed quite well issues and concerns about game balance. Furtunately from the interview it seems the developers realize the risk that Ninja and Kensai mean for game balance and will address it somehow, perhaps making the units very expensive, setting a limit in the number you can deploy, introducing some specific vulnerability, etc.

I just hope we won't see Shogun: The expansion becoming another chessy lame game with losers boasting: "Wooohooo!! I am the master!! I never lose!! ... Hey you want to fight my army composed by 200 Kensai, 1000 Ninjas and nothing else?"

If my worst fears become real and the Kensai and the Ninjas are overpowered, then I will do the only thing left for a gamer with some self-respect: I will ban Ninjas and Kensais from any game/campaing I play and I will refuse to play anybody using them.

Opinions? Comments? it is just me or there is other ppl out there also worried about those new units?

[The Black Ship]

Anssi let me this time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

We have no idea how these units will work, nor how effective they are yet. Let's wait and see. Ninja might have some effect on the number of multi-player game that use a timer, I'll have to be more careful in reading the game parameters now. In single-player, turn off the timer.

Remember a Kensai takes up an entire unit slot! And how much does he cost? Anyone know? Can he be flanked? How can his morale be affected?

See my point...we just don't know yet!

Now the grenadiers are intriguing to me...I wonder if we'll have to worry about "friendly fire" more now. How large is the blast effect? Can they be set off by guns? Do they just kill, or do they also effect morale to "wounded" soldiers?

BTW...that's cheesy not chessy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif Chessy would imply a connection with the board game Chess http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[solypsist]

I always prefer to use the adjective chesty myself, but unfortunately there's far more call for cheesy in my life than the former. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Tachikaze]

The Black Ship,
While I agree with the "wait and see attitude", a unit is not a good addition just because it's balanced or has a fair cost.

There are other good reasons for disapproving of a unit, even based on what we know about the expansion game now. Some people just don't agree with the concept of units with a single super warrior or ninja soldiers.

[ShadowKill]

As the interview stated the Ninja did play a part in the battle even though limit but they were still apart of it Second the one man unit says that he can cut though LOW honour units and well i see people's objections to a one man unit but hey did you see how big he was http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif I would run from him to I do not see these unit affecting the realaity of the game but more or less addeding a lil more fun to it Most of the stuff that is added was part of what WE wanted just a few months ago and now that we here that it will be in the game now it seems everyone Hates the idea. I myself am very happy with what i have been told about the new addon and look forward to it!!

As far as history is concerned well if we were not there how do we know? because of the books that we read and what you are taught in school bah! even today with all the advancement we have they can't even tell the news right so my take on history books and the stuff of the like are just hear say. because what you read is just a interpetation of what that person feels what happened that does not make it the truth!!!

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Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!
http://www.geocities.com/peacekeeper316/me.jpg

[Dark Phoenix]

Why do you think that after having the original game balanced pretty well that they would make a expansion pack that would unbalance the game?



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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Vlad]

I am very pleased with the new units but the Master Swordsman must be an "event" unit. There isn´t Miyamoto Mushasi in the market.

I assume that the Mongol Cavalry will be armed with arrow and hand-to-hand capacity

[Vanya]

Hmmm... maybe a new shinobi mission will be available to 'get the kensai drunk on sake' and/or 'chasing ugly geishas' so that he can be killed in battle while distracted. That is, of course, unless he is the Drunken Master...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Zen Blade]

Most are drunken masters....
in fact, I'm drunk right now and fighting off 5 men, while typing and...[x-rated]...
but, actually, the ninjas will be good to take out the Sword saints. And the ninja can be taken down by any good unit who can catch up to them face-to-face.
I wonder how fast the ninja will be.

and, I also believe that the sword saint will be an event unit in the single-player, and I have my doubts as to whether it would even be affective in multiplayer.

a swordsaint is one person, one person can hold a strategic point if he isn't surrounded, but on most of the battlefields we use in multi, the field is rather even.... not sure how the saint will be able to hold his own then....
maybe a good flanking unit with good mobility though.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[Vanya]

Why didn't I think of it before?!?!?!?

The BEST counter to a kensai will undoubtedly be the legendary BATTLEFIELD GEISHAS!

Can we add them or is it too late??

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Hirosito]

choco you mention

mongol lancers

what are they i didn't hear of them or did i

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[Hirosito]

found it what you call lancers are the spearmen i suppose and the javelin the skirmishers

fine call'em what you want ate the cost of my sanity

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[guyvii]

I thought this is why we but price tags on each unit. otherwise everyone would have Honor 9 muskets, monks and Yari cav. If some wanted to have an army of Musashi's or Peach boy's (japanese soap samuri that kill at lease a 100 people per show by himself) then you take a few good musket men. I have seen the monks cut arrows but I have see many a super samura in the late movies taken out by the peasent gunmen. :-)
It is called balance and I am sure that is what playtesters do. O ye of little faith. for shame.

If my worst fears become real and the Kensai and the Ninjas are overpowered, then I will do the only thing left for a gamer with some self-respect: I will ban Ninjas and Kensais from any game/campaing I play and I will refuse to play anybody using them.

[guyvii]

the last line were a quote I did not highlight for you. not my thoughts but what I was refering to.

[Magyar Khan]

is a mongol horsearcher able to shoot while running?

[Shiro]

It wouldn't be any fun if it couldn't!

[Nelson]

I would like to introduce a NEW unit to counter the Kensai.

The David-san unit.

It will be composed of a single small man, half the size of an ordinary samurai, and be armed with a sling. I have no idea if slings were ever used in Japan but they had to be at least as common as 11 foot sword saints! David-san will possess an unerring ability to drop very large men in their tracks.

And who knows? If David-san ever runs into a Chinaman named Har Li you could be in for some very cool two wheel transportation!

[Vanya]

I can't wait to field an all-korean army! With units like these, its anyone's guess as to why the koreans didn't conquer the world!

1. 16 grenadiers in wedge formation charging at monks... and hurling bombs... yeah!

2. 16 korean skirmishers rushing as a mass, throwing a clowd of spears and clubbing what is left with their shields... yeah!

3. 16 Kensai taking on the entire Mongol Horde! 'Nuff said!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[guyvii]

Way is everyone assuming the the Kensai and battlefield ninja will kill everything and no one will ever use the other units any more ? we do not even know the stats.

3. 16 Kensai taking on the entire Mongol Horde! 'Nuff said!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/B][/QUOTE]

[Hosakawa Tito]

Kensai,the original Godzilla!
Tito

[BakaGaijin]

Nelson-san:

Your David-san idea is a good one. Would he also be able to play the koto to boost the morale of your Daimyo on the field of battle? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Tachikaze]

Hey, Nelson, quit writing all these sarcastic posts about the new units!

Why? Because you're threatening to reach 200 posts before me!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Tachikaze]

Whoops, too late http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[solypsist]

with threads degenerating into ones like this and new topics involving cow-chukkas, it looks like we've finally run out things to talk about (and in some cases complain about) with the Mongol set.

now...bring out Total War Dark Ages so we can medieval on it's ass!!

[Hirosito]

such a good film

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[Choco]

BTW any update in how many new units are we going to have after all?

Is it going to be with 3 complete different armies? (Mongol, Korean and Japanese)

Or it is just going to be 2: Japanese and Mongol/Korean?

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Mongols and Koreans will fight on the same side, but their units will likely be clearly distinct (with the Mongols as the cavalry and the Koreans playing the grunt role).

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"Learning is to a man as the leaves and branches are to a tree, and it can be said that he should not be without it."
- Takeda Shingen

[Legendary_Ninja]

Hey guys, I just realized a perfect MP scenario! Let's say that it's a 2v1 match, the 2 players are the mongol/korean army. Now one of the people has koreans only, and the other mongol only. Now let's say the korean guy gets sneaky and decides to "revolt". Boom, no more mongols. Now if they added some shinobi to use in multiplayer it wouldn't require 2 people to commit this "treachery"

[TosaInu]

I hope there will be a toggle in the expansion pack so that all these new units can be put off.

Ja mata

[Tenchimuyo]

Good idea!
Bad idea!

[Puzz3D]

TosaInu, Maybe it could be a range of settings allowing an increasing set of available units. Like:

1) Historical
2) Realistic
3) Enhanced
4) Everything

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~