Driving me Nuts!!

[Jagger]

Ok, I still can't figure out what these numbers stand for in "Rebelling troop mixes" and "AI unit choice builds" of the crusaders_unit_prod file. And I know those numbers are important when creating new units.

Here are the old numbers for peasants:

Peasants INFANTRY 50 3 1 0 60 100 3 DISCOURAGED "CATH_PEASANTS(-40), CATH_ZEALOTS(10), ENG_BANDITS(15), ORTH_HERETICS(15), ORTH_PEASANTS(-30), ORTH_ZEALOTS(20), PAG_REBELS(5), PAG_LOYALISTS(1), PAG_PEASANTS(10), PAG_ZEALOTS(1)" PROVENCE "POVERTY_STRICKEN(120), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(4), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(32), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(32), CATHOLIC_TRADER(40), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(40), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(32), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(32), POPE(20), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(32), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(20), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(32), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(32), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(40), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(40), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(32), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(32), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(16), REBELS(40), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(2)"

Here are the new numbers:

Peasants INFANTRY 50 3 1 0 60 100 3 DISCOURAGED "CATH_PEASANTS(-40), CATH_ZEALOTS(10), ENG_BANDITS(15), ORTH_HERETICS(15), ORTH_PEASANTS(-30), ORTH_ZEALOTS(20), PAG_REBELS(5), PAG_LOYALISTS(1), PAG_PEASANTS(10), PAG_ZEALOTS(1)" PROVENCE "POVERTY_STRICKEN(63), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(2.1), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(16.8), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(16.8), CATHOLIC_TRADER(21), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(21), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(16.8), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(16.8), POPE(10.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(16.8), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(10.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(16.8), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(16.8), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(21), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(21), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(16.8), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(16.8), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(8.4), REBELS(21), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(1.05)"

(First set of bold for rebellions, second set for AI build in each peasant set}


What I noticed is that there were no changes in the rebelling mix numbers. However the numbers for AI build choices were reduced about half of the original.

This seems to imply a reduction in the number of peasants built by the AI factions with lower numbers. Yet when I look at rebellions, I see a peasant rebellion number of (-40) in both versions. I know peasants are very common troops in peasant rebellions. This implies a lower number produces more peasants.

Can anyone explain what these numbers stand for? I know they aren't percentages.

These numbers are important when producing new units. They will determine the probability of what new units you will see in AI factions and in rebellions.

Yet I can't figure out the system.

Any help out there before I go nuts...




[This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

Jag,
I,m not sure what you mean when
you say

"Can anyone explain what these numbers stand for? I know they aren't percentages."


If they are not, default or random
base moddifiers,
percentages,
odds,
chances,
probabilities,
or what ever you want to call them
and if you know this for a fact
then you know more than me for starters.

Secondly if they are not I can't
see what porpose the have at all.

As these numbers seem to be repeated
quite frequently I can only assume
the are a percentage of something.
As to what I'v to rtfm all of that
to see if it explains.

For the moment all I know is
I don't Know anything I just
got a whole load of ideas http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

To avoide going nuts do something else
for a day or two and make progress
in the many areas you have already
mastered.

Check all the docs with the patch
to see whats new.
Good luck

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Jagger]

Hi LK,

I guessed a tentative conclusion that they are not percentages because some are negative numbers. I would guess they revolve around a base level of some sort but I just don't know.

It has really bugged me brcause I know the answer has to be really simple if you just knew it. Deducing it is tough.

PS: I finished the Genoese Crossbowmen and will send either tonight or tomorrow.

And did you notice the two unused items in the projectile files? I am trying to decide what to use them for. I was thinking about a oriental composite shortbow with some real power compared to the regular shortbow. But I still need to do some research. I also suspect we can add new projectiles to the proj file just as in the crus file.

I have already slowed the ROF of the Arbalests to 23 and increased the ROF of the handguns/Arquebusies to 25. I am playing around with them to see how well they fit in the game. I liked the power of the arbalest vs the crossbow but not the higher ROF.



[This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Jo_Beare]

Jagger,
For the AI settings I used this rule of thumb:

Level 1 building

[Jagger]

JoBeare, you got my hopes up!! But I don't think it is correct. I just looked at arbalesters needing level 3 boyer. Here are their stats;

Arbalester INFANTRY 275 3 1 0 1 60 1 DISCOURAGED "CATH_BANDITS(5), CATH_HERETICS(10), CATH_LOYALISTS(10), CATH_REBELS(10), MUS_BANDITS(3), MUS_LOYALISTS(2), MUS_REBELS(5), ORTH_BANDITS(3), ORTH_REBELS(5), ORTH_ZEALOTS(5)" "POVERTY_STRICKEN(98.25), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(131), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(152.8), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(152.8), CATHOLIC_TRADER(191), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(191), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(152.8), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(229.2), POPE(286.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(229.2), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(286.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(157.2), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(104.8), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(131), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(131), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(104.8), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(104.8), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(52.4), REBELS(131), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(35.37)"

In the AI build section, I see a low number of 98.25 and a high of 286.5. So, very unfortunately, I am not seeing a correlation with levels. And those tiny decimal fractions are weird.

Thanks regardless. It was a good unique approach. Any other thoughts or did I misunderstand and you are still right.

[This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 11-08-2002).]

[Jo_Beare]

Jagger,
If you changed it to:
"POVERTY_STRICKEN(98.25), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(131), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(152.8), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(152.8), CATHOLIC_TRADER(191), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(191), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(300), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(229.2), POPE(286.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(229.2), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(286.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(157.2), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(104.8), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(131), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(300), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST (300), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(104.8), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(52.4), REBELS(131), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(35.37)"

That would give any of the factions that are listed as CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER, MUSLIM_PEACEFUL, or MUSLIM_DEVOUT in the campmap/startpos files a higher likelihood that they will train this type of unit. In case you haven't looked at the these files the area that assigns the factions behavior reads like:

//========================================
//Faction Behaviour
//This is the default behaviour of each
//faction, various in game factor will
//alter it. Rebel are always set to REBEL
//these are the available options
//also note that these are related to the
//product spreadsheet
//CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER
//CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST
//CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST
//CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST
//CATHOLIC_TRADER
//CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER
//CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER
//CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
//ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST
//ORTHODOX_STAGNANT
//ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE
//MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST
//MUSLIM_PEACEFUL
//MUSLIM_DEVOUT
//POVERTY_STRICKEN
//DESPERATE_DEFENCE
//CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT
//POPE
//BARBARIAN_RAIDER
//REBELS
//========================================
SetBehaviour:: FN_ALMOHAD MUSLIM_PEACEFUL
SetBehaviour:: FN_BYZANTINE ORTHODOX_STAGNANT
SetBehaviour:: FN_DANISH CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_EGYPTIAN MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_ENGLISH CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER
SetBehaviour:: FN_FRENCH CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER
SetBehaviour:: FN_GERMAN_HRE CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER
SetBehaviour:: FN_ITALIAN CATHOLIC_TRADER
SetBehaviour:: FN_POLISH CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
SetBehaviour:: FN_RUSSIAN ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_SPANISH CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER
SetBehaviour:: FN_TURKISH MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_ARAGONESE CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
SetBehaviour:: FN_BURGUNDIAN CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
SetBehaviour:: FN_GOLDEN_HORDE BARBARIAN_RAIDER
SetBehaviour:: FN_HUNGARIAN CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
SetBehaviour:: FN_NOVGOROD ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_PAPIST POPE
SetBehaviour:: FN_SICILIAN CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST
SetBehaviour:: FN_SWISS CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST

I have only tried it in one of my campaigns so far. I moved the numbers for nubian spearmen down to less than 100 and saracen up to around 300 for the Egyptian (MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST). Saracen outnumbered the nubians by about 3 to one in the enemy Egyptian armies. I would say that Saracen made up about 1/4 of the egyptian army. I also increased the number for Mamluk cavalry and decreased the number for Saharan cavalry. This had similiar results with the Egyptians kicking out large numbers of Mamluk and small numbers of Saharan.

JoBeare

[This message has been edited by Jo_Beare (edited 11-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Jo_Beare (edited 11-08-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

I would tend to concur with Jo_Beare
on this one.

You can have a minus percectage
chance.
This is common as is often
the case, with games such
as this ,that have a complex
way of calculating stats.
It is possible
that minus percentages are needed
to prevent bonus stats from
bumping up certain stats
in particular circumstances.
To me a minus chance is less
of a chance normaly.

I'm not saying this is the case
here.I'm just saying that you must take this in to consideration when your not
sure.
So

minus 10% for understanding

plus 80% for effort

plus 20% for communicating

plus 10% for learning

plus 10% for no going nutts

and we end up with 110%

another valid gaming statistic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Jagger]

Jo_beare and LK, you may be right. I think I will play around a little with the numbers this weekend. However checking the results of changes is going to be very difficult without being able to see the AI builds.

Hopefully CA will give us a hint here.

[eat cold steel]

Rebel troop mix:
The rebel generation decides a style of rebellion, say a loyalist revolt, it looks in the spread sheet for each troop type that has an entry for loyalist, goes thu all the ones with negative number and pick one depending on how big the number is, then looks at the all the troops together inverting -ve number to + number and pick some more troop types until you have 10 unit types. So basically, -ve number will mean it will appear at least once in the final troop mix, the higher the abs value the higher the chance of it being picked. Once you have 10 types, it hand that list to another part of the program and produce an army of a certain cost from those 10 unit types.

The "shopping" number is simular, the higher the number the more chance that a troop type will be picked. Higher tech troop types needs a much higher value because by the time you can produce those troops, the number of avalible troops to train will also be greated, that number needs to be much higher to stand out.

[Jagger]

Thank you, Cold Steel!

It is logical and makes sense now.

I will be able to get a good nights sleep at last.