God hates homosexuals....and veterans [Archive]

solypsist

11-22-2005, 17:41

November 26, 2005
1:30 pm – 2:00 pm
Lansing, MI
Delta Haven Free Methodist Church, 12406 Broadbent Rd., for funeral of Army First Lt. Justin S. Smith

Exact quote from their site::
WBC to picket funeral of Army First Lt. Justin S. Smith - at 2 p.m., Sat., Nov. 26, at Delta Haven Free Methodist dog kennel, 12406 Broadbent Rd., Lansing, Mich. Killed by IED - like the IED America used to bomb Westboro Church, in a terroristic attempt to silence our anti-gay Bible preaching.

this is a church, too (http://www.godhatesfags.com/)
copy of their flier (http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/nov2005/20051118_justin-smith-funeral.pdf)
We are located at 3701 W. 12th Street in Topeka, KS. Regular service time is 11:30 a.m. (Central time).

These guys are going to turn a veteran's funeral into a shameful circus.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/20051119_seattle-wa2.jpg

Lazul

11-22-2005, 17:55

well thats just bloody stupid.

well it seams like god hates alot theese days... last time it was Sweden. :jumping:

Red Harvest

11-22-2005, 18:04

It's Topeka, Kansas. That means "Fred Phelps" and his legions of idiots.

English assassin

11-22-2005, 18:04

is this made up? Not by Soly, I mean as a parody of what fundamentalist god botherers might believe?

I just can't believe its true.

DemonArchangel

11-22-2005, 18:13

Yup. Good old Fred Phelps.

Now if only those guys from Washburn University used a bigger bomb under the WBC....

We can all dream, can't we?

Red Harvest

11-22-2005, 18:52

is this made up? Not by Soly, I mean as a parody of what fundamentalist god botherers might believe?

I just can't believe its true.

Never underestimate a religious nutcase.

Crazed Rabbit

11-22-2005, 19:03

These people are fools and idiots, and if I were to see one of the scum holding a sign thanking God for the death of our soldiers, I would be mightily tempted towards violence. They are not Christians.

Crazed Rabbit

Redleg

11-22-2005, 19:26

Its a good thing that we allow free speech in this country - I am tempted to revoke their right to express themselves in such a way.

But that would be violating everything I stand for.

Oh well in a free society you have nutcases that always go to far. Someday they will cross the line - and violate the law and have to suffer the consequences of their stupidity.

Togakure

11-22-2005, 19:31

It is difficult to feel Compassion for those who act on such pathetic ignorance. Yet I must try. According to the basis of their own beliefs, they will have much to answer for. Hatred is not a True Christian value. I pity these, and more so--their children.

Edit: What an offensive site ... .

Big King Sanctaphrax

11-22-2005, 19:33

These fellows seem to have a curious obsession with improvised explosive devices.

Reverend Joe

11-22-2005, 19:36

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/20051119_seattle-wa2.jpg
:stunned:

Those rotten XXXXXX...

This has to be some kind of bad joke.

/edited for language

Strike For The South

11-22-2005, 19:41

its not a joke. Someone should take a damn 2x4 to there face. I know if I was that guys dad or brother or uncle Id be pretty pissed

Kommodus

11-22-2005, 19:49

this is a church, too (http://www.godhatesfags.com/)

I've been referred to this site as well; it almost made me weep with rage and frustration. Please know that those of us who truly follow Christ completely reject the hateful ideas of these lunatics who have never known God. This kind of distorted religion angers me and my friends like nothing else.

I long for the day when sincere Christ-followers aren't painted with the same brush as these narrow-minded hypocrites, but more than that, I long for the day when those who identify themselves with God simply stop doing these things and start caring about people.

BDC

11-22-2005, 20:00

Their site is fairly horrific. So much ignorance...

Kekvit Irae

11-22-2005, 20:20

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/nov2005/20051111_god-hates-vets.pdf

*rolls eyes* Do I need to remind them that without what veterans have done for us, a good majority of people in the US would be now saluting either the Rising Sun or the Swastika?

Ser Clegane

11-22-2005, 20:39

Wow - these guys seem to pray to some angry Mr. Hyde version of the Christian God ~:eek:

Perhaps a group gay veterans stole a lollipop from Mr Phelps when he was a kid... :shifty:

BDC

11-22-2005, 20:56

Wow - these guys seem to pray to some angry Mr. Hyde version of the Christian God ~:eek:

Perhaps a group gay veterans stole a lollipop from Mr Phelps when he was a kid... :shifty:
Perhaps he is a gay veteran in denial...

Tricon

11-22-2005, 21:08

Hilarious in a sad sort of way.
Fanaticism is wrong, no matter what the original belief is.

Adrian II

11-22-2005, 21:12

If there were a God, I am sure he would hate idiots above all else.

solypsist

11-22-2005, 21:56

okay we all seem to be in agreement on this issue.

if i had a following of people who's ignorance-driven hatred supported my party, i would probably be a tad bit weary about it. how does one get away with having the reputation these guys have?my personal favorite is the image of the flag raising in iwo jima, with the text "fags" under it. they preach that veterans are trying to revoke the rights that the first amendment grants them, yet spit on the very people who gave them these rights a future, the ones that fought to preserve those rights from japan, germany, russia, korea, vietnam, italy etc etc etc.

im done rambling. in conclusion, to reiterate the main point of this post... is that if i were a conservative right about now... i would pay attention to the fact that these people support me, and whether or not i feel proud and glad they do so. if thats the case.... god help us all.

Redleg

11-22-2005, 22:36

Red Harvest

11-22-2005, 22:55

Ask yourself the reserve question - if your a liberial - how do feel about the far left in this country?

Both sides of the isle have thier nut jobs - these guys happen to be on the far right - and unfortunely they get to much press time.
The problem I see is that there has been a very active effort by the majority of conservatives to paint everyone else as a far left liberal: independents, moderates, conservative democrats, mainstream democrats as well as run of the mill liberals. And there is the guilt by association aspect where "evil" is implied for the far left...which then everyone else gets lumped into...~:rolleyes:

There has also been a tendency to claim that the conservative movement represents Christian ideology, family values, etc. while others are all anti-religion, communist, anti-family etc. A number of Christians like myself are infuriated by that. I would counter that the stereotypcial "conservative Christian" represents not Christianity, but more of an Old Testament Judaism. I'm not kidding when I point out that religious political conservatives speak incessantly about God...but little about Jesus. Methinks they lost the thread of why it is called "Christianity." ~;)

If I thought that the conservative Christians' views actually represented those of Christianity, then I would not believe in Christ anymore.

Ser Clegane

11-22-2005, 22:57

these guys happen to be on the far right - and unfortunely they get to much press time.

I'm not even sure if labels like "right" or "left" apply to this sort of people - the terms that seem appropriate are not necessarily used to label the common ppolitical camps...

solypsist

11-22-2005, 23:05

Papewaio

11-22-2005, 23:08

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth

Are there not mockers with me? and doth not mine eye continue in their provocation?

Mockers / idiots are seen as some of the worst.

Redleg

11-22-2005, 23:20

Are you suggesting that a liberal can't criticize conservatives for not denouncing the radical conservative factions without first denouncing the radical liberal factions, and in the same breath accusing a liberal of not denouncing the radical liberal factions without you first denouncing the radical conservative factions? Cause that's kinda what it looks like.

Nope - that is not what I stated - try again. The question was based upon this comment, that should help several of you to understand the question better. Since it seem to have alluded several of you.

i would pay attention to the fact that these people support me, and whether or not i feel proud and glad they do so. if thats the case.... god help us all.
Its not about the labels that the mainstream conservatives attempt to place on liberials - I am talking about the actual far left - you know the wacko's that plant spikes in trees, throw blood at those who were fur, etc..

However with some of your responses it seems your overly senstive to being called a far left liberial - now that is amusing in my book. ~:eek:

Edit: to fix bolding code

Alexanderofmacedon

11-22-2005, 23:21

Funny...in an ignorant sort of way...~:handball:

solypsist

11-22-2005, 23:54

Well of course, it's all relative. None of those examples of the "crazy most vocal section of the left" even comes close to rivaling the activities of these crazy gay/veteran bashers, and I will gladly, resoundingly, denounce their hair-brained platform.

At the end of the day, this group of zealots is miniscule and insignificant, but their "God hates fags" mentality is prominent in enough Republican districts that you should be embarassed to be in any way associated with the party. The fundies vote conservative, and the fundies will be crazier than anything from the left (who aren't in the habit of voting anyway).

GoreBag

11-22-2005, 23:54

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/20051119_seattle-wa2.jpg

I can tune fanatics out, but that poster is hella funny.

Redleg

11-23-2005, 00:05

solypsist

11-23-2005, 00:24

heh heh..

Then its a good thing I am not a Republican and only a conservative now isn't. ~:eek:

Soulforged

11-23-2005, 00:37

The word of God:(all from the link)
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight, thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD."
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness...unto vile affections...to a reprobate mind."
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
I think they follow the word of God pretty well...~:rolleyes:

Major Robert Dump

11-23-2005, 00:48

I seriously think if one of these "people" were picketing a funeral of a dead soldier, and a family member flipped out and shot a few of them or beat them to death or whatever, that no jury in the country would convict the family member. Aside from being disrespectful to our country and to all the tradition of laying our dead to rest, this is just a downright dispicable thing to do to a grieving family. If I were on tthe receving end of one of these visits while mourning at a funeral those people would be leaving via ambulences. There are just some things you don't disturb, and funerals are one of them

Xiahou

11-23-2005, 01:07

At the end of the day, this group of zealots is miniscule and insignificant, but their "God hates fags" mentality is prominent in enough Republican districts that you should be embarassed to be in any way associated with the party. The fundies vote conservative, and the fundies will be crazier than anything from the left (who aren't in the habit of voting anyway).
I was waiting for you to drop the other shoe when I saw you posted this- of course you didnt disappoint. :no:

DemonArchangel

11-23-2005, 01:44

I was waiting for you to drop the other shoe when I saw you posted this- of course you didnt disappoint. :no:

So you admit to supporting the WBC?

solypsist

11-23-2005, 02:10

Pat Robertson just called for my death

Crazed Rabbit

11-23-2005, 02:17

Really, now?
And was it a specific call for your, personal death, or more of a general 'the city you live in shall be smitten' sort of thing?

Oh, and ditto Xiahou on the dropping of the other shoe.

Crazed Rabbit

Red Harvest

11-23-2005, 02:38

Pat Robertson just called for my death

Did he call for your death, or did he pray that God would "create a vacancy" where your living, breathing body now is? I learned here in the Backroom that calling for vacancies to lifetime appointments is apparently not quite the same, and is therefore legit. It must be some new form of Christianity...without that wimpy, liberal Christ guy messing up all the cool fire and brimstone.

solypsist

11-23-2005, 02:44

the first one was Pat. the second was Panzer Jager.

1.Did he call for your death,
2. or did he pray that God would "create a vacancy" where your living, breathing body now is?

Redleg

11-23-2005, 04:14

the first one was Pat. the second was Panzer Jager.

However we all know that you are beneath the radar scope of Pat's prayers to have individual vacate their "office". So what you have done here could fall into the catergory of a violation of the forum rules - would it not?

Is it time for the Moderator of the Backroom to give himself a warning? ~:eek:

solypsist

11-23-2005, 04:18

how would saying that PJ wants me gone be a violation of forum rules?

However we all know that you are beneath the radar scope of Pat's prayers to have individual vacate their "office". So what you have done here could fall into the catergory of a violation of the forum rules - would it not?

Is it time for the Moderator of the Backroom to give himself a warning? ~:eek:

Redleg

11-23-2005, 04:42

how would saying that PJ wants me gone be a violation of forum rules?

If your putting words into Pat's mouth that were not spoken - then that is knownly false information - is it not?

And did PJ state that he wanted you gone from the forum as a moderator - or in the way stated wanted your body to be vacated?

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 04:50

If your putting words into Pat's mouth that were not spoken - then that is knownly false information - is it not?
~:rolleyes:

Petty. That statement was obviously made in jest. Quit belittling our beloved Tavern. :brood:

Redleg

11-23-2005, 04:54

~:rolleyes:

Petty. That statement was obviously made in jest. Quit belittling our beloved Tavern. :brood:

Petty my rear-end - I expect moderators to behave in line with the rules that they are suppose to enforce. The behavior of the tavern is a direct reflection of the moderators as much as it is the patrons. If a moderator can make such a comment even in jest - then everyone should be able to make that type of comment without getting warnings - and we all know how that will turn out don't we. What we do as patrons is a direct reflection on how they speak and act in the tavern - even in jest his comment was not called for.

What is petty is your comment - but that is to be expected from an individual like you who once called for the death of everyone that didn't agree with your viewpoint about a certain subject.

Go read some more philosophy - :hide:

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 04:57

If a moderator can make such a comment even in jest - then everyone should be able to make that type of comment without getting warnings
JAG? ~:rolleyes:

LOL, I swear that sounded Sartrean. Maybe you should be a liberal. No when someone makes a statement that is wrong and doesn't get punished that doesn't mean that you should do the same. That's unethical my challenged friend.

ichi

11-23-2005, 05:05

ROTFLMAO

from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Here we have Americans calling for the death and eternal damnation of our soldiers, and within one page it shifts to the old right/left schism then to the moderators should be ideal examples while debate to . . . what's next, I forget.

Its not that Pat would want Soly's death, but Soly better damn well know that if he ever gets on his knees to pray to God to spare him from the trbulations that He sent upon Soly, that God (on advice from His chosen spokespeople here on earth) can ignore Soly and make him squirm.

Jeez, this place could be funny but its becoming, . . . oh wait, I was laughing my off at this thread, so I guess it is pretty damn funny.

So Ill leave you with some very old Fleetwood Mac

Oh Well

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to

Oh well

Now, when I talked to God I knew he'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"

Oh well

ichi~:cheers:

Xiahou

11-23-2005, 05:10

If a moderator can make such a comment even in jest - then everyone should be able to make that type of comment without getting warnings - and we all know how that will turn out don't we.I vote for that option. ~:cool:

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:12

JAG? ~:rolleyes:

LOL, I swear that sounded Sartrean. Maybe you should be a liberal. No when someone makes a statement that is wrong and doesn't get punished that doesn't mean that you should do the same. That's unethical my challenged friend.

Well at least I know where the Nazi's got part of their warped ideolgy from - which would make you even more challenged since you wanted to deny the history now wouldn't it.

Like I said go read some more philosophy you might actually begin to learn something

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 05:18

Well at least I know where the Nazi's got part of their warped ideolgy from - which would make you even more challenged since you wanted to deny the history now wouldn't it.
~:rolleyes: Even God would be sad if he saw such "intelligence".

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:23

~:rolleyes: Even God would be sad if he saw such "intelligence".

That is why the Nazi's lost - there "intelligence" was soley lacking - much like your's seems to be at times.

Togakure

11-23-2005, 05:26

Soly lacking? ok Redleg: chill out man, you're getting out of hand. That was rude ... .

Edit: Oh ... "Soley lacking." Heh ... my faux pax (or was it a freudian slip on your part?).

Illegitimus non carborundum est, my friend (re: le prince de darkness voiannabe).

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:28

Soly lacking? ok Redleg: chill out man, you're getting out of hand. That was rude ... .

Well I was just jesting before some little child decided to butt his little nose into it.

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 05:31

Well I was just jesting before some little child decided to butt his little nose into it.
I bet it makes you feel like a big man to call me that. ~;)

Papewaio

11-23-2005, 05:35

How is Pat any different to the extremists Mullahs calling for the deaths of all who are different to him?

Togakure

11-23-2005, 05:36

Gah ... *whooshing sound as my whole pointless point goes sailing over heads ...*

No prob Red: my statement was a joke. I didn't really think you were rude.

Oh, and BP: I got your big man feeling right here, lil un ... ~;)

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 05:42

Oh, and BP: I got your big man feeling right here, lil un ... ~;)
Did you not hear what I'm into? ~D
I'm a sick sick boy, you best be careful.

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:47

I bet it makes you feel like a big man to call me that. ~;)

Not at all - I am plently big enough to handle a little verbal sparing. Hell I haven't even warmed up yet.

Shall we keep it civil - or get down to the quick and dirty?

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:49

How is Pat any different to the extremists Mullahs calling for the deaths of all who are different to him?

He's not - but the jest is now ruined - so move along - nothing to see here anymore.

Togakure

11-23-2005, 05:51

... I am plently big enough to handle ... haven't even warmed up yet. ... Shall we keep it civil - or get down to the quick and dirty?
Oh pretty please with a cherry (~;p) on top ... can I watch?!!

Damn ... this tequila's got a kick! LOL!! ~:cheers:

Redleg

11-23-2005, 05:55

Oh pretty please with a cherry (~;p) on top ... can I watch?!!

Damn ... this tequila's got a kick! LOL!! ~:cheers:

Have you seen the worm yet?

Byzantine Prince

11-23-2005, 06:05

Oh God... You guys are too clever for me. So many tricks and so many holes I can't even keep up.

Togakure

11-23-2005, 06:09

Have you seen the worm yet?
LOL! Through the Clouds and Rain, This Dragon's riding the Wind, m8 ~:joker: !

Redleg

11-23-2005, 06:13

LOL! Through the Clouds and Rain, This Dragon's riding the Wind, m8 ~:joker: !

Ah the memories of my youth - Mescal used to be one of my favorite's - however one to many times I have seen the worm - and it just does not have the draw that it once had.

Oh but it is a powerful beast that wishes to bring you to its bosum to draw of its nectar. Be careful chasing the worm since it has a bad habit of biting back.
~:cheers:

Togakure

11-23-2005, 07:07

Ah--but I like creatures that bite back! See these lil scars I've got here? Well lemme tell ya ...

:ahh:

... on second thought, it's time to hit the hay ... past time. :fishbowl:

[... dreams of impudent, moaning cherries reeking of agave nectar, spilled from a raku bowl on to a filthy church altar. The blood-red juices slowly ooze over musty pages of Nietzsche, Sartre, and Maplethorpe. The cacaphony intensifies. A rusty spoon, etched with the Star of Texas, descends from a flag pole flying American colors and smushes the loudest of these into pulp. A white worm emerges, its face that of a masked shinobi, and laughs hysterically, yelling "Kawabunga!," as a 21-gun salute commences and a crowd watches respectfully. Meanwhile--above it all--a camera hovers, poised for action. The lense is cold and scrutinizing, its tongue stuck in its cheek.]

Redleg

11-23-2005, 07:51

[... dreams of impudent, moaning cherries reeking of agave nectar, spilled from a raku bowl on to a filthy church altar. The blood-red juices slowly ooze over musty pages of Nietzsche, Sartre, and Maplethorpe. The cacaphony intensifies. A rusty spoon, etched with the Star of Texas, descends from a flag pole flying American colors and smushes the loudest of these into pulp. A white worm emerges, its face that of a masked shinobi, and laughs hysterically, yelling "Kawabunga!," as a 21-gun salute commences and a crowd watches respectfully. Meanwhile--above it all--a camera hovers, poised for action. The lense is cold and scrutinizing, its tongue stuck in its cheek.]

Very good - :bow:

Kommodus

11-23-2005, 13:51

I think they follow the word of God pretty well...~:rolleyes:

For the record, those quotes are all taken out of context and pieced together. All they are doing is distorting scripture. This is actually a hallmark of dangerous cults - focusing in on a few texts (removed from their textual, historical, and cultural contexts) and ignoring the rest that doesn't suit their agenda and arguments.

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 14:04

I agree. The fact is that men are very very very very very very very times 1000 times religious creatures. We believe in luck, charms, stars, zodiac signs and all those magical stuff. This is the work of Satan (NO, I'm NOT a crazed fanatic), it is a fact. Satan is damn religious and he always love to use the Bible and distort it. Remember the 40 days Jesus spend in the wilderness and Satan used the Scriptures to tempt Jesus? Yes he did! What Satan said to Jesus came from the Old Testement. Up to now, Satan is still doing that, distorting the truth.

People, Christianity is not a religion, you don't just go throught the motions. It is something more, it is a relationship with God. All religions tell you what are the problems in life - sin. But they never tell you how to handle it or if they do, not in a very successful way. I'm not saying that everyone should convert to Christianity, no! I respect other religions and belief, Jesus stressed tolerance, grace and forgiveness. But think about it, people think that Christianity is a religion with rules of what to do and what not to do. They are missing the main thing, being a Christian means that you have a one to one relationship with God.

Now, I wait for the arguements to come flying back at me. :hide:

Adrian II

11-23-2005, 14:07

Now, I wait for the arguements to come flying back at me. :hide:Navaros, is that you? ~:confused:

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 14:22

Navaros, is that you? ~:confused:

No, its is LLB and always LLB. Who is Navaros anyway? ~:confused:

Adrian II

11-23-2005, 14:34

No, its is LLB and always LLB. Who is Navaros anyway? ~:confused:Juts making sure. We have another member by the (chosen) name of Navaros who often acts as God's Enforcer on the forum.

All I can think of with regard to your post is this: how can you have an intimate personal relationship with one whose historicity is doubtful at best and who is supposed to be dead for 1967 years?

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 14:38

Adrian II

11-23-2005, 14:43

WOW! I didn't know you have a God Enforcer here! No, I'm just putting facts bare-faced that some people are just so narrow-minded and yes I'm a Christian. But can I mean this God Enforcer??? Please? ~DOh, I do apologise for the silly question. Anyway, we are just having a little talk between Inquisitors here, ~D

I mean no disrespect, LittleLostBoy. But the passage about the personal relationship is too much for me. Could you please elaborate?

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 14:53

You know, when you become a Christian, you are just not one person that follow a religion. You belong to God's family which mean you become a child (note the word child) of God. So all the other christians in the world are also part of your 'spiritual' family. We are united under the banner of belonging to the family of God.
I told you to note the word 'child' because if you observe a young child, they trust their parents completely, in knowing that their parents will look after them, feed them, comfort them. So in short, God is your Heavenly Father. He is not some impersonal force (like in Star Wars where they keep saying the 'Force binds the Universe together'). Nope. God is personal, He thinks, He cares, He loves, He is personal. So that is what I mean by a one to one relationship with God.

Adrian II

11-23-2005, 14:58

So in short, God is your Heavenly Father. He is not some impersonal force (like in Star Wars where they keep saying the 'Force binds the Universe together'). Nope. God is personal, He thinks, He cares, He loves, He is personal. So that is what I mean by a one to one relationship with God.I get it. I find it hard to empathise with it, but I get it. Is the Devil also a personal, thinking, caring, loving being?

Kralizec

11-23-2005, 15:41

Juts making sure. We have another member by the (chosen) name of Navaros who often acts as God's Enforcer on the forum.

Oh my God, Navaros visits these boards ~:eek:
Let's say I know him well enough from another forum, until he got banned.

To bad really...his posts always made me laugh ~D

master of the puppets

11-23-2005, 16:24

lol, good thread, but it depends upon actrion not faith, i am not a christian or any religion for that matter and yet i'm discusted at what these freaks are doing. LLB is right, all religions at the very core are almost perfect good but each is warpt and distorted by humans. muslims would be viewed as good and just people had not a few warped there koran erasing the part about all forms of suicide is sinfull and editing in that giving your life for jihad will get you heaven and 70 virgins, if you actually find that in the koran then your magic. and so it will be with these psudo-christians, they do not show this kind of hatred because there god wills it they do because they want it to be true, and in there feeble little minds they belive if enough belive it it becomes true. soon they grow bloated with a sense of power and decide it is gods will to apply the idea, but is it. even in the bible where it says trhat homosexuallity is wrong it says that they will destroy themselves, that god will stop it. it was never the duty of any mortal to distribute gods justice, it was only there duty to be accepting and have faith, and yet...

ok i'm done

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 17:20

littlelostboy

11-23-2005, 17:26

I get it. I find it hard to empathise with it, but I get it. Is the Devil also a personal, thinking, caring, loving being?

The Devil is a REAL being. He is a personal and thinking being too. But sad to say, he's not caring and loving. His main goal is to drag as much humans as he can into Hell so that we all suffer along with him when Judgement Day comes. Sorry, but I don't mean to frighten you guys out there but this is what the Devil really wants. The Devil hates the guts out of you, espeically Christians. So when people think Christians have everything going smoothly, you're wrong, the Devil trys to make things worse for us so that we will lose our faith in God and come running back to the world. It happens, even to me. Yes, I'm not perfect, no one is.

Just a fact: The humans' first attempt at religion was when they were building the Tower of Babel. They believe that by building that glorious temple, they could be equal to God and could talk to God. But that is not right because they were blinded by pride and wanted to go to God through their way, not by God's way.

Strike For The South

11-23-2005, 17:36

I like this guy hes like me except smarter

English assassin

11-23-2005, 17:57

[QUOTE]The Devil is a REAL being.QUOTE]

I prefered Don Corleone's view that the devil is a state of mind. Well, he didn't put it quite that way, but its what he meant.

As for Nav, I kind of miss him. Kind of.

Adrian II

11-23-2005, 18:14

The Devil is a REAL being. His main goal is to drag as much humans as he can into Hell so that we all suffer along with him when Judgement Day comes.Let me get this straight.

When Judgment Day comes, the Devil will be made to suffer. How? Will he be made to suffer in his own Hell which, properly speaking, wouldn't be his anymore from that moment on? If so, who will administer Hell from that moment on? And what happenes to the humans whom the Devil managed to drag with him into Hell? Will a special facility be opened for them, something like an divine Gitmo? And if so, what book will be flushed down the toilets there?

Strike For The South

11-23-2005, 18:26

Adrian go read revalations IIRC it says the devil will come to earth he will be worshiped as the messiah although he rejects the true god and to do anything once he takes power you will hafto be branded with the mark 666. The there are the seven bowls of god wrath the finaly battle blah blah blah. and all the true belivers get saved and the non go to hell. In short the devil gets teh pwnd

Grey_Fox

11-23-2005, 18:54

Things like this make me happy that Europe exported most of our religious nutters to America.

Red Harvest

11-23-2005, 19:02

This thread has certainly followed a meandering path. ~D

Redleg

11-23-2005, 19:06

Things like this make me happy that Europe exported most of our religious nutters to America.

Don't be to smug - some religious nutters are being exported to Europe - but not from the United States. ~:eek:

Goofball

11-23-2005, 19:32

Petty my rear-end - I expect moderators to behave in line with the rules

I also expect the same of Senior Members. I don't know what's gotten into you over the past week Red, but your seeming eagerness to pick a fight with anybody and everybody over petty little things lately is really puzzling.

Please go back to being the old Red.

Redleg

11-23-2005, 20:44

I also expect the same of Senior Members. I don't know what's gotten into you over the past week Red, but your seeming eagerness to pick a fight with anybody and everybody over petty little things lately is really puzzling.

Please go back to being the old Red.

Why? Maybe I will - and maybe I won't. ~D

Edit: Forgot some punctuation. I should look up the word to insure I spelled it correctly, but I am sure someone in thier desire to teach me to spell and use english grammer correctly will let me know if it is correct and even if I used the word correctly. :hide:

Edit: to add smilies also.

Strike For The South

11-23-2005, 20:48

Why maybe I will - and maybe I won't.

lmao~:joker: ~:cheers:

littlelostboy

11-24-2005, 00:25

Let me get this straight.

When Judgment Day comes, the Devil will be made to suffer. How? Will he be made to suffer in his own Hell which, properly speaking, wouldn't be his anymore from that moment on? If so, who will administer Hell from that moment on? And what happenes to the humans whom the Devil managed to drag with him into Hell? Will a special facility be opened for them, something like an divine Gitmo? And if so, what book will be flushed down the toilets there?

Actually, the Devil and the demons are not in Hell yet. They do go there sometimes but most of the time they are in our World because the Devil feels that this world belongs to him and that this is his kingdom when rightfully it belongs to God because God was the one who built our World. Hell is too hot for them to be there all the time.

When God send the Devil to Hell, it means that God will send him to what it is called The Eternal Lake of Fire where the Devil will be chained down forever. Goes the same for all those demons.

Goofball

11-24-2005, 00:30

Actually, the Devil and the demons are not in Hell yet. They do go there sometimes but most of the time they are in our World because the Devil feels that this world belongs to him and that this is his kingdom when rightfully it belongs to God because God was the one who built our World. Hell is too hot for them to be there all the time.

When God send the Devil to Hell, it means that God will send him to what it is called The Eternal Lake of Fire where the Devil will be chained down forever. Goes the same for all those demons.

And then Superman, The Green Lantern, and Aquaman will put the smack-down on Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and chain them in the Burning Lake of Fire forever too...

Redleg

11-24-2005, 00:34

And then Superman, The Green Lantern, and Aquaman will put the smack-down on Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and chain them in the Burning Lake of Fire forever too...

You got it backwards - those are all good guys - you need Mr Freeze, the green goblin, and Pinky and the Brain will put the smack-down on them.

Soulforged

11-24-2005, 00:36

For the record, those quotes are all taken out of context and pieced together. All they are doing is distorting scripture. This is actually a hallmark of dangerous cults - focusing in on a few texts (removed from their textual, historical, and cultural contexts) and ignoring the rest that doesn't suit their agenda and arguments.
I know that. But it surprises me how the so called "Word of God" can be split and separated. In the end the man decides what's the word of God, ironically isn't it?
If I called myself a christian, and I truly had faith about the word of God, I'll be doing the same as this people. I think you can call them too faithful, but stupids?

Redleg

11-24-2005, 00:44

I know that. But it surprises me how the so called "Word of God" can be split and separated. In the end the man decides what's the word of God, ironically isn't it?
If I called myself a christian, and I truly had faith about the word of God, I'll be doing the same as this people. I think you can call them too faithful, but stupids?

If I painted myself blue, wore some funky white pants, with funky white pointed shoes and a goofy looking cap on my head - and called myself a smerf - would I be one?

littlelostboy

11-24-2005, 00:49

I know that. But it surprises me how the so called "Word of God" can be split and separated. In the end the man decides what's the word of God, ironically isn't it?
If I called myself a christian, and I truly had faith about the word of God, I'll be doing the same as this people. I think you can call them too faithful, but stupids?

Yes they are faithful, but they interpreted God's word wrongly. They are not too faithful, they are too fanatical. And if you read their hanout (one of the links in the first post) you see that they have some obsession with explosives. Certainly those explosives are not for firecrackers for the 4th of July.

Red Harvest

11-24-2005, 02:26

If I painted myself blue, wore some funky white pants, with funky white pointed shoes and a goofy looking cap on my head - and called myself a smerf - would I be one?
Depends, how tall are you? ~D They are hiring by the way. Something about a comeback tour, just as soon as Papa Smurf gets out of rehab.

If that doesn't work due to the height thing, check out that Blue Man group. ~;)

bmolsson

11-24-2005, 02:34

Its a good thing that we allow free speech in this country - I am tempted to revoke their right to express themselves in such a way.

As long as they don't strap dynamite around them selves and start visiting gay parlors and veteran hospitals..... :hide:

Redleg

11-24-2005, 03:02

As long as they don't strap dynamite around them selves and start visiting gay parlors and veteran hospitals..... :hide:

They might find a few surprises at the vetern hospitals - especially in the part of the country they are in.

master of the puppets

11-24-2005, 03:50

Yes they are faithful, but they interpreted God's word wrongly. They are not too faithful, they are too fanatical. And if you read their hanout (one of the links in the first post) you see that they have some obsession with explosives. Certainly those explosives are not for firecrackers for the 4th of July.

they don't interpret wrong, they interpret in whatever way they wish, in effect they are making god say what they want him to say, or tell you that you do. the popes during the crusades knew full well that it was in there religion not to kill and to be tolerant of other religions, and yet they would happily forget that fact so as to obtain there holy war. now people like bin ladin do the same,leave out things, erase things, alter them to there will. and so it is being done here today.

...religion is such crap innit?~:joker:

Soulforged

11-24-2005, 04:48

If I painted myself blue, wore some funky white pants, with funky white pointed shoes and a goofy looking cap on my head - and called myself a smerf - would I be one?If you belive that you're one, yes. But not being an smurf isn't menaced with eternal damnation you know.

Yes they are faithful, but they interpreted God's word wrongly. They are not too faithful, they are too fanatical. And if you read their hanout (one of the links in the first post) you see that they have some obsession with explosives. Certainly those explosives are not for firecrackers for the 4th of July.Oh yes the eternal matter of interpretation ~:rolleyes: . Those quotes have only one way for interpretation... the amoral one. Of course if you say other thing then you're just putting words that are not there, that's of course what really happened (ie the bible being writed by simple humans). If it's the word of God then there's no cause in avoiding it.

Redleg

11-24-2005, 04:51

If you belive that you're one, yes. But not being an smurf isn't menaced with eternal damnation you know.

However they are menaced with eternally being in the cook pot of a certain cat and his master.

master of the puppets

11-24-2005, 05:05

However they are menaced with eternally being in the cook pot of a certain cat and his master.

hmm i wonder what smurfs taste like, blueberry? blue rasberry? ...orange? (any other blue flavors i forgot)

Redleg

11-24-2005, 05:09

hmm i wonder what smurfs taste like, blueberry? blue rasberry? ...orange? (any other blue flavors i forgot)

I believe with the amount of rehab Papa Smurf has been under that the flavor might consist of a high toxic level of achocal and other substances.

Togakure

11-24-2005, 05:15

Trent reflects the attitude back on his particular brand of annoying "Christians:"

He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
He’s got the answers to ease my curiosity
He dreamed up a God and called it christianity

Your God is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I will see you there

He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion atrocities done in his name

Your God is dead and no one cares
Drowning in his own hypocrisy
And if there is a hell I will see you there
Burning with your God in humility
Will you die for this?

Heresy, from The Downward Spiral, by Trent Reznor, NiN

Without the music, these lyrics lose much of their impact, but the message is clear. There was a time when this song was a bit of an anthem for me. For some reason I felt like going hunting when I listened to it.

Soulforged

11-24-2005, 05:22

However they are menaced with eternally being in the cook pot of a certain cat and his master.That's not true...If I remember it right from those times, they achived to escape right.
Also in the world of the smurfs that cat and that master were real, in this world however...

Redleg

11-24-2005, 05:27

That's not true...If I remember it right from those times, they achived to escape right.
Also in the world of the smurfs that cat and that master were real, in this world however...

people who paint themselves blue......

bmolsson

11-24-2005, 07:48

If I painted myself blue, wore some funky white pants, with funky white pointed shoes and a goofy looking cap on my head - and called myself a smerf - would I be one?

Only if you are gay as well..... ~;)

Adrian II

11-24-2005, 12:55

You got it backwards - those are all good guys - you need Mr Freeze, the green goblin, and Pinky and the Brain will put the smack-down on them.~D

Now that is the old Redleg. I like him! :bow:

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

11-24-2005, 13:18

hmm i wonder what smurfs taste like, blueberry? blue rasberry? ...orange? (any other blue flavors i forgot)

~:pissed: ~:mad ~:angry:

I am not in rehab! I taste nothing smurfy! Leave us alone, won't you?

~:pissed: ~:mad ~:angry:

Louis the Smurf,

ok, I may have a slight salsepareille addiction (salsaparella for you non smurf speaker?)

...and maybe a chocolate addiction too...

Adrian II

11-24-2005, 13:24

~:pissed: ~:mad ~:angry:

I am not in rehab! I taste nothing smurfy! Leave us alone, won't you?How's Smurfette these days? Any chance you could post some of those suppressed Playboy pics? :sneaky:

Adrian II

11-24-2005, 13:39

Actually, the Devil and the demons are not in Hell yet. They do go there sometimes but most of the time they are in our World because the Devil feels that this world belongs to him and that this is his kingdom when rightfully it belongs to God because God was the one who built our World. Hell is too hot for them to be there all the time.

When God send the Devil to Hell, it means that God will send him to what it is called The Eternal Lake of Fire where the Devil will be chained down forever. Goes the same for all those demons.Man, that sure is a hot story you are onto. You must have a deep throat within the system, a source who is not afraid of being burned to the third degree...

Prodigal

11-24-2005, 14:16

Someone should take a damn 2x4 to there face
That just about sums it up. I'm one of those that has a really intolerant attitude toward the more extreme forms of intolerance.

It beggars belief that these people really cannot see that they're acting like bloody facists.

What this world needs is some Buddhist brainwashing camps, or failing that a global uprising of the apathetic majority to go & slap around all far right, far left freak shows until they shut up & realise that actually just because THEY know they're right, pretty much everyone else on the planet doesn't, & doesn't want to hear about them stirring up trouble, stockpiling weapons, or inciting idiots to give them all their money.

For every 1 persons that agree's with people like this there'll be several thousands that don't, & not because they've the opposite view, its simply because they realise they're nutters.

Byzantine Mercenary

11-24-2005, 14:29

this sort of thing happens in all groups be it political movements, enviromentalist groups or even football clubs, you get guys who just want to attack someone or something, it is sad that all christians are thought to agree with them, but it is not limited to christians, Its just sad that its the nutters that get all the attention...

master of the puppets

11-24-2005, 17:58

...nutters...lol...nutters...man thats such a funny word...nutters. and its true, there freaks, oh yeah i've been meaning to ask this question to someone, plus since we god a god buff and comic book buff you can answer this. if jesus, the flash, abraham, and superman were in a footrace who could go around the world 20 times first?

and also pinky and the brain could take over the world, its only a matter of time...

Redleg

11-24-2005, 18:03

...nutters...lol...nutters...man thats such a funny word...nutters. and its true, there freaks, oh yeah i've been meaning to ask this question to someone, plus since we god a god buff and comic book buff you can answer this. if jesus, the flash, abraham, and superman were in a footrace who could go around the world 20 times first?

Well Jesus of course - the world would just revolve around him.

and also pinky and the brain could take over the world, its only a matter of time...

Pinky would take over the world quickly if it wasn't for the Brain. ~:eek:

Soulforged

11-25-2005, 00:57

people who paint themselves blue......
Like this one... (http://www.timbervideoworks.com/Family%20Guy%20-%20Smurfs.mpeg)

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 00:45

Man, that sure is a hot story you are onto. You must have a deep throat within the system, a source who is not afraid of being burned to the third degree...

huh?

Tribesman

11-26-2005, 01:45

huh?
Who is running hell while the devil and the demons are not there ? who is tormenting the damned while they are absent ? how can there be a place for people to be tormented for all eternity if the beings that are supposed to be tormenting them won't go there because it is a little to warm for their liking ?
Can you get on the hotline and find a few answers?

Adrian II

11-26-2005, 01:48

huh?LittleLostBoy, what I am saying is you must have a source from Hell. Not only did you tell me that the Devil exists, but you even tell me his whereabouts: he is in and out of Hell because it is too hot for him in there. Man, you must have a source who is in the heat thick of it.

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 02:08

LittleLostBoy, what I am saying is you must have a source from Hell. Not only did you tell me that the Devil exists, but you even tell me his whereabouts: he is in and out of Hell because it is too hot for him in there. Man, you must have a source who is in the heat thick of it.

Have you forgotten during Genesis, the Devil eyed the World. He was jealous that we were God' chosen people and so he wanted the World for his. So he came here. He has too cause he is not omnipotent and he cannot be everywhere at once like God. He's just some very very very powerful ex-angel. So to come here, he has to leave Hell, no? And to go back to Hell, he has to leave here, no? And furthermore, the Devil need help since he cannot be everywhere around the world at once so there are demons in this world. Yes, there are also demons in hell but what they do, I do not know because I've not been there yet. Granted, no everything bad are caused by the Devil, it is caused by us since we by nature are sinners. All the Devil has to do is to plant temptations and whisper in our head, and then trust that our sinful nature will take over.

Adrian II

11-26-2005, 02:31

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 03:36

Fair enough, LittleLostBoy. I could have reconstructed most of that from the Bible myself. I can hear half the board snigger about this thread and I must admit I find some of the things you say very hard to believe. But I am interested because you seem to have a very lively sense of the Devil's presence.

The part I can not reconstruct is that Hell is so hot that the Devil himself can not stay there for any length of time. Could you enlighten me some more?

Most people are already sniggering at this thread's title. Well, have you read John Milton's Paradise Lost? Granted, it is not really a religious work compared to a literay work but then John Milton had a good grounding in religion and christiany studies as he was studying to become a religious cleric or priest before he became disillusioned with the Christian Church hypocrisy. The first book or chapter said that the Devil suffered from the flames of the Eternal Lake, so that means that Hell is a tad too hot for the Devil.

mystic brew

11-26-2005, 11:55

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 13:14

But Paradise Lost is a work of fiction, littlelostboy. It's one thing to take every word in the bible as gospel (scuse the pun), but Paradise Lost is just one man's story. A fantasic one, to be sure, but still.

Ok fair enough. But remember the Book of Job in the Bible? The story where Job, one of the richest man in the Middle East who lost everything and became inflicted with sores just because God allowed the Devil to test Job? At one part, it said that the Devil appeared before the presence of God. So it means that the Devil can leave Hell and appear before God. It does not means the Devil went to Heaven but more likely he appeared before God. There are many other evidences in the Bible that the Devil are roaming around our world and is not in Hell fully yet but I have to search for those.

But the main point of Christianty is not to argue over whether the Devil is in Hell or not. In Christianty, we are taught that the Devil is a very real presence, not to frighten us Christians but to make us more aware that temptations are always all around us and that the Devil is like a lion waiting to devour Christians. Nowadays, the Devil always appear as a cartoon or as some funny figure and so people don't really take this Devil and Hell thing very seriously. Which is why the Devil is so damn happy cause if no one believes in him, it just makes it all the easier for him to tempt people and draw them away from God.

Tribesman

11-26-2005, 14:41

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 14:52

At one part, it said that the Devil appeared before the presence of God. So it means that the Devil can leave Hell and appear before God
No as God is everywhere so that means that he must be in hell aswell , so he appeared in hell to visit the devil , but of course God cannot stay in hell for too long as it is very hot , but as he is always everywhere that means that he must always be in hell , but ehhhh .....its too hot to always be in hell .....so perhaps he has a special flame and heat resistant outfit .

the Devil is like a lion waiting to devour Christians.
But what if it is really a nice Lion that doesn't really want to devour you and is really grateul because once you took a thorn out of its paw in your Christian compasion .

Ha, very funny about the part where God needs special flame and heat resistant outfit. Have you forgotten he's God and doesn't needs an outfit??? Furthermore it said that the Devil went up with some angels to meet God. (I don't know why the Devil did that so stop prodding me).

Ah yes, Christian compassion. I think the Devil will devour us as a favour (not physically but spritually).

I feel that this thread has went way off. Its kinda productive talking to so many people with different ideas, espeically Adrian who prodded and kicked my answers around. But nuff said, I think I need to keep quiet and wait for others to have their say. ~:handball:

Tribesman

11-26-2005, 15:01

Have you forgotten he's God and doesn't needs an outfit???
I find nothing in any of the Bibles that details Gods wardrobe requirements or his fashion taste , so as there is nothing in there to learn about what god wears how can someone forget something that isn't there to be learned in the first place .~;)

I think the Devil will devour us as a favour
So the Devil is compasionate ??????

Adrian II

11-26-2005, 15:04

Its kinda productive talking to so many people with different ideas, especially Adrian who prodded and kicked my answers around. But nuff said, I think I need to keep quiet and wait for others to have their say. ~:handball:I appreciate that, LittleLostBoy. You are an asset to this forum.
:bow:

littlelostboy

11-26-2005, 16:04

I appreciate that, LittleLostBoy. You are an asset to this forum.
:bow:

Thanks. And tribesman, you have a very wierd way of asking wierd questions. ~D

Quietus

11-26-2005, 19:50

Ha, very funny about the part where God needs special flame and heat resistant outfit. Have you forgotten he's God and doesn't needs an outfit??? Furthermore it said that the Devil went up with some angels to meet God. (I don't know why the Devil did that so stop prodding me).

Ah yes, Christian compassion. I think the Devil will devour us as a favour (not physically but spritually).

I feel that this thread has went way off. Its kinda productive talking to so many people with different ideas, espeically Adrian who prodded and kicked my answers around. But nuff said, I think I need to keep quiet and wait for others to have their say. ~:handball: Hi littlelostboy, ~:)

I have a question. If God is so powerful, why can't he just make the Devil disappear?

Soulforged

11-26-2005, 20:19

Adrian II

11-26-2005, 20:34

The Bible is as much fiction as any work of Stephen King.I happen to agree with you, but I also think we should give other posters a break. Some people choose to believe in the Bible and there is no reason to constantly question them on this point. Instead of labouring the same points (historicity of Christ, origins of the Bible) all the time, it couldn't hurt to occasionally ask a believer exactly what it is he believes (and why) for a change. Show some interest in someone else. We could actually learn something.

Look at it this way: suppose I would confront you on the Falklands war each and every time you posted here, just because you are Argentinian. This is what it must feel like if you are a Christian and post about some of your beliefs. A horde of people come after you and shout 'Didnt you know the Bible is a fairy-tale?' The same by the way happens whenever someone writes about homosexuality. Immediately the evangelical brigade revs up and comes after him with insults and innuendo. That is just plain boring and it explains why we have fewer interesting discussions than we could have.

Strike For The South

11-26-2005, 21:00

So? The Bible isn't? The Bible is as much fiction as any work of Stephen King.

Aw arent you so cute taking a hard line agaisant christianity. I should give you some candy

EDIT: Adrian made a much better point

Soulforged

11-26-2005, 21:38

Aw arent you so cute taking a hard line agaisant christianity. I should give you some candy
EDIT: Adrian made a much better pointPlease I don't give a damn about Christianity, I don't question the use of drugs as I don't question the faith of others, however littlelostboy was making some interesting fictional points using the Bible as a real resource of information. I presume that you agreed with AdrianII because he didn't hurt your feeling, however that wasn't my intention either.:bow:

I happen to agree with you, but I also think we should give other posters a break. Some people choose to believe in the Bible and there is no reason to constantly question them on this point. Instead of labouring the same points (historicity of Christ, origins of the Bible) all the time, it couldn't hurt to occasionally ask a believer exactly what it is he believes (and why) for a change. Show some interest in someone else. We could actually learn something.I know what the Christian usually believe because I was one, I was almost a fanatic one sometime in the past. But that was not the point of my question, the point was question the Bible as a real source of real information.

Look at it this way: suppose I would confront you on the Falklands war each and every time you posted here, just because you are Argentinian. This is what it must feel like if you are a Christian and post about some of your beliefs. A horde of people come after you and shout 'Didnt you know the Bible is a fairy-tale?' The same by the way happens whenever someone writes about homosexuality. Immediately the evangelical brigade revs up and comes after him with insults and innuendo. That is just plain boring and it explains why we have fewer interesting discussions than we could have.Is a valid point, and I'm not denying it, but the subject of the Malvinas is not related to faith or fiction at all, it has real consecuences with real people and real facts. Also it's valid to say that opening minds, wheter it's by a discussion on a forum or through a scientifical or philosophical work is a noble end, in some point in my life I saw that there was no Santa Claus. You can however, as you say, agree with them and not debate that point over and over, however this thread has an special value of religion in it. Proving what must be faith and what's the reality expressed by the same Bible (the words as they're not distortioned) can be also a valid point to demonstrate if this people are christian or not, to say if they're just ignorant or faithful. If I come with this tired point in a thread about Football it's a different thing, but the only option to understand this people is to go to the Bible and question it.

Moros

11-26-2005, 21:49

OMG this is just unbelieveable. If I was at that funeral I'm sure I would have just gone to my house to get my chainsaw. no really, how low can you fall.
If God wouldn't hate these idiots, I'd be Santa Claus.

I'm shocked again by how stupid and idiot some humans really are. :no:

Viking

11-26-2005, 21:50

So? The Bible isn't? The Bible is as much fiction as any work of Stephen King.

I give a damn whether there`s a God or not....but that statement is not true; the Bible contains descriptions of how people lived in the ancient times. It actually got some scientifically value. Also the Bible was written with the intention of being believed, while SK didn`t write his stories with a such intention.

I have a question. If God is so powerful, why can't he just make the Devil disappear?

By logic, I would assume that the Devil is(if existing) also powerful...

Soulforged

11-26-2005, 22:29

I give a damn whether there`s a God or not....but that statement is not true; the Bible contains descriptions of how people lived in the ancient times. It actually got some scientifically value. Also the Bible was written with the intention of being believed, while SK didn`t write his stories with a such intention.Not that much, but yes. However the part that constitutes the faith is fictional, all faith is based on absurd and nonsensical so called facts (wich is a kind of oxymoron) that have a characteristic of being fantasy. Thus results like this faithful people spouting absurd and amoral rants. Said all this please present some of those historical valuable facts that the Bible discribes as such...Regarding Stephen King...Well I'll tell you an history. There was a man who brought the sacred Gospel to the people, specially the ladies, through songs and dancing. He had an enjoyable life, and was told to do miracles like saving people from the death, the Pope could do very well in canonice this one they told. Finally the man died, he was called the King when that happened and books were written about this incredible man and his so called facts. After his death people stated that they saw him running throught the streets in various locations, telling histories of him, so the resurrection of the man spreaded and became common "knowledge". Guess who he was...
Yes you're right he was Elvis Presley!! Some nonsencical statements were made regarding his life and his death, and "afterlife". It happened the same with Jesus, of course people in two thousand years from now will look back and pray to Elvis Christ, there's no difference, except for the Gospel and the kind of dead, and the time, but the essence of the history is the same.
My point is that the same could happen with Stephen King stories, people could believe that there's some truth in it, there's nothing preventing it...

By logic, I would assume that the Devil is(if existing) also powerful...The doctrinarial word of the Church states that when there's no good there's the Devil. For instance power will only be that wich provides for the freedom of the cration, while the rest non-power will be the corruption to wich we're all doomed, God saves us from that corruption. Of course if you read the Genesis it talks about the fall of the angel and that sort of things, then you ask yourself: From where did this people took all this nonsense?
Also the doctrine later interpreted that God has even power to do this kind of things but he doesn't do it because he granted freedom to the man, so the man can choose the Devil if they want, in short God isn't fighting a Holy War against the Devil, he's kindda sitting in his throne expecting for us to die. Of course my words are totally biased but seek for the "truth" with the parrish, he should have it, maybe he can communicate with God and tell you.

Viking

11-26-2005, 23:22

Not that much, but yes. However the part that constitutes the faith is fictional, all faith is based on absurd and nonsensical so called facts (wich is a kind of oxymoron) that have a characteristic of being fantasy. Thus results like this faithful people spouting absurd and amoral rants. Said all this please present some of those historical valuable facts that the Bible discribes as such...Regarding Stephen King...Well I'll tell you an history. There was a man who brought the sacred Gospel to the people, specially the ladies, through songs and dancing. He had an enjoyable life, and was told to do miracles like saving people from the death, the Pope could do very well in canonice this one they told. Finally the man died, he was called the King when that happened and books were written about this incredible man and his so called facts. After his death people stated that they saw him running throught the streets in various locations, telling histories of him, so the resurrection of the man spreaded and became common "knowledge". Guess who he was...
Yes you're right he was Elvis Presley!! Some nonsencical statements were made regarding his life and his death, and "afterlife". It happened the same with Jesus, of course people in two thousand years from now will look back and pray to Elvis Christ, there's no difference, except for the Gospel and the kind of dead, and the time, but the essence of the history is the same.
My point is that the same could happen with Stephen King stories, people could believe that there's some truth in it, there's nothing preventing it...

It`s not pure fictional, it got the right Roman governor, asiatic towns etc. Hence it got what is called scientific value.

Soulforged

11-27-2005, 00:25

It`s not pure fictional, it got the right Roman governor, asiatic towns etc. Hence it got what is called scientific value.Again I agree, however the value is less than that of other true historical books.

bmolsson

11-27-2005, 05:59

I am surprised that this thread is still open..... ~;)

mystic brew

11-28-2005, 15:10

So? The Bible isn't? The Bible is as much fiction as any work of Stephen King.

hey, i'm no deist.
But that's not quite the issue here. No one is maintaining the literal truth of Paradise Lost... as far as i know it's not canon in any form of christianity. therefore it can't be taken as canon

But there are a lot of people who say the bible has a lot of truth in it.
But littlelostboy confused some statements from one into the other. so i wanted to point out that while this may be his belief, the bible doesn't back LLB's version here.

master of the puppets

11-28-2005, 17:13

mabey the history in the bible is false but by looking at the bible and then at the person who does belive in it it can show how they think to some degree regarding people and what it is to believe. this is where the bible holds power not in the direct image coming from it but how it warps the minds of readers, philosophy is the same, it makes people think in a way different from what they origioaly did, wheathger thats good or bad is up to the interpritation.

Ziaelas

11-28-2005, 17:40

What idiots....

Maybe it's time we sent the Sarmatian Auxilia after idiots like these....

Though they have a right to speak out, do they really have a right to turn someone's funeral into a protest, a joke, to desecrate the veteran's good name?

Can they be sued for defamation of character?

If God truely hates homosexuals (which I doubt extremely), then he isn't God.

scooter_the_shooter

11-28-2005, 19:51

I hope some one jumps them.

bmolsson

11-29-2005, 03:02

This Fred Phelps seems to be a rather rough nutjob. With him threatening Swedes, would US sanction Sweden carpetbombing Kansas now ?? ~;)

Redleg

11-29-2005, 03:42

This Fred Phelps seems to be a rather rough nutjob. With him threatening Swedes, would US sanction Sweden carpetbombing Kansas now ?? ~;)

Have you ever been in Kansas - not really that much to Carpet Bomb. You only have three small cities to strike. Topeka, Witcha, and Salina (and Salina isn't all that big.)

Now Kansas City is big - but its mostly on the Missouri side.

So carpet bomb away - the farmers might thank you for making it easier to plow next year. ~:eek:

Edit: Oh and Lawerence as been burned down once already - it could use another good burning to help them feel like a bunch of jayhawkers once again.

Byzantine Mercenary

11-29-2005, 17:09

Again I agree, however the value is less than that of other true historical books.
Many other historical works were written by biased people, indeed some are little more than propiganda. You have made it clear that you don't agree with the spiritual message of the bible, fine but don't discount the historical information in it.

Soulforged

11-30-2005, 00:33

Many other historical works were written by biased people, indeed some are little more than propiganda. You have made it clear that you don't agree with the spiritual message of the bible, fine but don't discount the historical information in it.
Again what historical reveletion is in there, than it's not in another book?~:confused:

Navaros

11-30-2005, 10:59

Apologies to getting to this thread late, it appears some of you have wished I came earlier. No, that other guy is not me. ~:cool:

As for Fred Phelps and Co. - are they really lunatics? Yes.

However, they are no more of lunatics than many and/or most other people in society today. Ie: many people think murdering human babies is fine and dandy as long as it is labelled with a misnomer of "abortion" in an attempt to mask the act of murder. Does anything on the Fred Phelps site contain more lunancy than any pro-abortion (or "pro-choice") statement that are made by average, supposedly sane people? No.

Hence, the Phelps crowd cannot be stigmatized by the population at large as if the population at large is better: because in many cases, the population at large is just as insane.

In addition, God and Jesus certainly do not tolerate "gays" and the Bible makes that abundantly clear in very explicit language all throughout both Testaments. To spread that message is not wrong (although that is not exactly Phelps' message, so in this paragraph I am no longer referring to Phelps). To spread the message that "being gay is A-OK", as many so-called Christians like to do these days, is in fact very wrong. That is not what the Bible says and those who try to pretend it is are not Christians but rather members of an Apostate Church who know nothing of God and will not be joining God after their lives on the Earth are ended.

Strike For The South

11-30-2005, 14:17

Navaros Being gay is a sin and you heard the stpry we are all sinners blah blah. and since in gods eyes all sins are equal them being gay is no worse than you lying

littlelostboy

11-30-2005, 14:49

I'm finally back here. So who said that Paradise Lost didn't back the Bible or something like that??

Byzantine Mercenary

11-30-2005, 16:36

In addition, God and Jesus certainly do not tolerate "gays" and the Bible makes that abundantly clear in very explicit language all throughout both Testaments.
Where does it say this in the new testament?

That is not what the Bible says [QUOTE]
That all depends whether they are practising or not

[QUOTE=Navaros]who know nothing of God and will not be joining God after their lives on the Earth are ended.
only God has the right to judge who will go to heaven

mystic brew

11-30-2005, 18:45

LLB...

Just saying that even a fundamentalist Christian shouldn't view things said in Paradise Lost as being the same as the bible.

And Navaros, the Bible in the original Aramaic is much more wooly on the matter than you state here.

lost/gained in translation... plus the all sins are equal thing. Homosexuality is specifically mentioned about 4 times in the bible, i think

English assassin

11-30-2005, 19:16

bmolsson

12-01-2005, 03:03

Soulforged

12-01-2005, 03:09

Where does it say this in the new testament?
See one of the links from the article, there are quotes from the Bible used from this people to keep on their activities.:bow:

Byzantine Prince

12-01-2005, 03:13

Navaros Being gay is a sin and you heard the stpry we are all sinners blah blah. and since in gods eyes all sins are equal them being gay is no worse than you lying
God doesn't have eyes you heretic! ~:)

God doesn't have any attributes, he IS all attributes.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-01-2005, 13:30

See one of the links from the article, there are quotes from the Bible used from this people to keep on their activities.:bow:
well I can't see the pages in question, they are blocked, however most of the quotes that you have been talking about come from the old testament, which while part of the bible as a whole was written by a very different group of people in a very different way to the new testament.

Prodigal

12-01-2005, 17:37

I agree whole heartedly with English Assassin, I'd also suggest considering that many of the different christian docterines were lost when Constantine saw a meteor hit earth & in adopting christianity, basically told the various "sects" to agree on a single message

In my mind this raises the question as to whether what was actually included had any better claim to the "truth" than those that were effectivly tossed out. It also produces a very real possibility that the "true" message may have been one of those discarded. Either way it certainly would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during the deliberations.

Xiahou

12-01-2005, 21:04

Going back to the hell thing, IIRC there is some confusion in christian doctrine between judgement at the time of death and the day of judgement.

Now, I'm not being funny here, but basically what you have is a series of writings developing over time from the jewish conception of no afterlife at all to a later christian conception of an immediate judgement of a soul at the moment of death, by way of a sort of half way house where everything was put in abeyance and we were all judged, dead or alive, on the day of judgement. But of course the problem is if religion is true rather than just a belief then the afterlife can't really have been invented for the first time in about 150BC and hell and judgement can't really have started in 33 AD and all these inconsistencies, perfectly understandable from the historical perspective, become rather embarrassing.

The problem became especially acute when the imminent end of the world which Jesus pretty obviously expected didn't happen, (see also "Did Jesus intend to start a religion anyway" also filed under "difficult questions Christians prefer not to answer") leading to problematic questions about what all the ever increasing number of souls were doing in between dying and the day of judgement.

Anyway IIRC there is supposed to be a sort of pro tem judgement when you die, where if you are bad you just sort of hang about in a godless state, and its only after the mass judgement on the day of judgement that we all get piled into hell.

So LLB is probably quite "right" that the devil is on his travels as we speak.

(This is a garbled recollection of Alice K. Turner, History of Hell, which goes through the development of the ideas of hell and judgment carefully)
I dont know what your 'sect' teaches, but that's not quite my understanding.

First, a few basic points, 1) Heaven would be likened to a state of eternal bliss, or like a oneness with God. 2) Hell would be defined of a total absence of God or a banishment from his presence with no hope of reprieve. 3)Purgatory is essentially hell, with the significan difference being that you still have hope- hope that one day you will be admitted to heaven.

So anyhow, when you die, you are brought into God's presence and judged- not temporarily, you are judged. In that moment, you know what it is like to be totally in God's presence (heaven). But, if you are sent to hell you are removed from God's presence never to be again returned. Imagining what a state of total, absolute bliss would be like you can also imagine would hell would be like, after having a taste of what could have been and then being removed from it for all eternity without any hope of getting it back. Only those who are totally sinless are admitted to heaven immediately, the rest are sent to purgatory, or if they are especially nasty- to hell.

As to judgement day, my understanding is that applies to all those currently living- not those who have died and already been judged. Theologically speaking, Heaven wasn't "invented" in 150BC- but, its gates were closed from the time of Adam & Eve until Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for our sins. As to Jesus "expecting" the end of the world- of course he did. The point was, however, that we don't know when the time will come and therefore should always try to be spiritually prepared for it- so as not to be caught unprepared.

I dont know if that clears things up at all, but that, in a nutshell, is what I remember being taught.

Alexander the Pretty Good

12-02-2005, 01:15

Gah! Purgatory gah!

Tribesman

12-02-2005, 01:43

Soulforged

12-02-2005, 02:41

well I can't see the pages in question, they are blocked, however most of the quotes that you have been talking about come from the old testament, which while part of the bible as a whole was written by a very different group of people in a very different way to the new testament.
YEP...It's the word of GOD.~:rolleyes:

Byzantine Mercenary

12-04-2005, 14:39

Where does it say this in the new testament?

You just don't understand how it works do you .
You have to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there then add them all together without reference to context or any reference to anything that might be in there as well that is contradictory , then you have a complete position to take on any possible subject going .~;)
You can use the bible to justify or condemn just about anything .
edit , perhaps that last sentance should be "use/misuse"
I get how it works only too well, the point im making is that it is usually quotes from the old testament that are used against gay people and that the most important teaching in the whole of chrisitanity the one that supercedes all others, to love your neighbour is compleatly forgotten

Soulforged

12-04-2005, 20:35

I get how it works only too well, the point im making is that it is usually quotes from the old testament that are used against gay people and that the most important teaching in the whole of chrisitanity the one that supercedes all others, to love your neighbour is compleatly forgotten
But the point is, from me at least, atheist and esceptical, that if it's the word of God then you don't take the old testament separeted from the new testatement. Or it's not the word of God, or God is not allmighty and omnicient, or it's...well falible...This final concept is so ridiculous that it's like having an authoritarian king that directs what is good and what's bad, but without having a good definition...Or maybe Jesus was really God and he teached something to his father...~:eek:

Byzantine Mercenary

12-06-2005, 09:32

Or maybe Jesus was really God and he teached something to his father...~:eek:
well, via the concept of the trinity he is, he is a part of god that came to bring us new teachings, I won't go into an in depth explanation now but suffice to say the teachings of Jesus supercede the old testament.

doc_bean

12-06-2005, 12:16

So anyhow, when you die, you are brought into God's presence and judged- not temporarily, you are judged.

As to judgement day, my understanding is that applies to all those currently living- not those who have died and already been judged.

Actually from my reading of the Bible (quiet a while ago) iirc it actually says that on judgement day all shall rise from the grave and be jugded by God, Earth will be destroyed and Heaven will be made.

But the Bible does get confusing when it comes to things like Heaven, Angels, Satan and Hell (which my girlfriend insist was only added to the christian faith during the dark ages). According to Catholicism, you get judged immediately and admitted into heaven or get sent to hell/purgatory. There was a pope once that tried to change this view to what I discribed above (sort of), he wasn't very popular. I'm not sure what happened to him, he was considered a heretic iirc, and might even have ended up in flames.
It is very important to (old school) Catholic dogma that judgement doesn't happen at the end of time, since that would rule out Saints sitting by God's side. Which would make the popular practice of praying to the Saints seem rather silly...

Soulforged

12-07-2005, 04:18

well, via the concept of the trinity he is, he is a part of god that came to bring us new teachings, I won't go into an in depth explanation now but suffice to say the teachings of Jesus supercede the old testament.
So who's right? The father or the son. But there's quotes against homesexuality in the new testament also.
Romans 1:32 -"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
I Corinthians 6:9-11 -"¿Don't they know that the unjust will not heir the Kingdom of God?
Do not fool yourselves: they'll not heir the Kingdom of God those that have fobidden sexual relationships, nor those that worship false idols, or the adulters, nor the homosexuals of any class, nor the thiefs, nor the blackmailers, nor the exploiters, nor the drunk," (?) "nor the gossip," (?).
I Timothy 1:6-10 - (It's talking about the ideas that law does not protect) "...for those who have forbidden sexual relationships and for the homosexuals, for those who sell and exploit other men, for those who lie and swear in falseness. This and all the other sins go against the sane doctrine..."
Jude 7 - "The same as Somoma and Gomorra and their neighborgs cities, who also prostitued themselves falling to the unions against nature, are an example of the punishment of the eternal fire."
Romans 1:24-32 has also some nice words.
II Timothy 2:19 - "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
Also this is why this people do what they do: Jude 22-23 "Try to convince the doubtful and save them, taking them out of condemnation; to the rest treat them with compassion but with prudence, aboherrecing they very clothes contaminated by their bodies."
There are more in the same link at the start of the thread.
Now this is my translation from the spanish, but I think that it's understandable anyhow.
Even if this doesn't convince you, then you'll notice that by saying that Jesus corrected his father (or himself :rolleyes:) then you're saying that God is falible, wich is an innacceptable proposition for such an "entity" wich is supposed to be omnicient, the one, the absolute and the creator.

Strike For The South

12-07-2005, 05:04

So who's right? The father or the son. But there's quotes against homesexuality in the new testament also.

Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.

Soulforged

12-07-2005, 05:11

Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.
So you believe the same?

Byzantine Prince

12-07-2005, 05:15

So you believe the same?
Yes he DOES, Shut the hell up already. GAH!

Strike For The South

12-07-2005, 05:18

So you believe the same?

Its two sperate things while we have to adhere to sociteys laws rules ETC. God can always forgive us no matter how henous the crime

Soulforged

12-08-2005, 03:31

Its two sperate things while we have to adhere to sociteys laws rules ETC. God can always forgive us no matter how henous the crime
Then I will recomend that you reflex a little more.

Strike For The South

12-08-2005, 03:33

Then I will recomend that you reflex a little more.

what~:confused:

Soulforged

12-08-2005, 06:24

what~:confused:
About how you value homosexuality. Of course is just a recomendation, different opinions, no matter how wrongs they're, are always welcome.

Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.

GoreBag

12-08-2005, 09:07

God doesn't have any attributes, he IS [...]

Disagree!

Navaros, you're right. They are murdering babies. The trouble is convincing me that it's not cool to do it.

Byzantine Prince

12-08-2005, 09:31

Disagree!
You can disagree till your d*** falls off, that doesn't make you right.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-08-2005, 13:46

Even if this doesn't convince you, then you'll notice that by saying that Jesus corrected his father (or himself :rolleyes:) then you're saying that God is falible, wich is an innacceptable proposition for such an "entity" wich is supposed to be omnicient, the one, the absolute and the creator.
well, god is not fallible but humans are infinately fallible i believe that the old testament was written by people inspired by god but with their own social codes that they supperimposed onto the main message, Jesus disagreed with the way that God was being used to make money via things such as the money changers, he wasn't so much correcting earlyer teachings as clarifying their main message.

GoreBag

12-09-2005, 02:00

You can disagree till your d*** falls off, that doesn't make you right.

Or you, for that matter.

Soulforged

12-09-2005, 05:08

well, god is not fallible but humans are infinately fallible i believe that the old testament was written by people inspired by god but with their own social codes that they supperimposed onto the main message, Oh yes the old rule of Christianity, the sweet candy for new devotees. The book was written by God, but not that much. I'm the Pope and I'll say to you what was written by God and what was written by people inspered by God, that could made mistakes. Of course, both testaments were written by people, GOD DOESN'T HAS HANDS!!!

Jesus disagreed with the way that God was being used to make money via things such as the money changers, he wasn't so much correcting earlyer teachings as clarifying their main message.
So God didn't send plagues, and killed people, he didn't destroyed Sodoma and Gomorra, he didn't made the Tower of Babilon fall, he didn't kill the first son of the Pharaon (oh how a lovelly God ~:eek:).
Also notice that I purposely posted quotes from the New testament, so it appears that there's nothing to correct really.
Some messages, my friend, are clear like water, and nor Jesus, nor his followers bothered to clearify them. So the only way to do it is to wait for another Mesahiah to correct the wrong words, with out him it will be the man who corrected God's word (how ironic~:rolleyes: ).

Byzantine Mercenary

12-09-2005, 09:57

Oh yes the old rule of Christianity, the sweet candy for new devotees. The book was written by God, but not that much. I'm the Pope and I'll say to you what was written by God and what was written by people inspered by God, that could made mistakes. Of course, both testaments were written by people, GOD DOESN'T HAS HANDS!!!
I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.

So God didn't send plagues, and killed people, he didn't destroyed Sodoma and Gomorra, he didn't made the Tower of Babilon fall, he didn't kill the first son of the Pharaon (oh how a lovelly God ~:eek:).
Also notice that I purposely posted quotes from the New testament, so it appears that there's nothing to correct really.
as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.

Some messages, my friend, are clear like water, and nor Jesus, nor his followers bothered to clearify them. So the only way to do it is to wait for another Mesahiah to correct the wrong words, with out him it will be the man who corrected God's word (how ironic~:rolleyes: ).
Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?

Soulforged

12-10-2005, 04:07

I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.So God is more than a ghost. He gives rules but they're not clear so the writers screw all up, except for some parts that the Church finds to be fine?

as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.If you've faith you should know the answer by now.

Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?No I wouldn't. God is absolute and infalible, if I believed in such things I'll take a banner like all this people and try to save my soul of eternal damnation. Thanks God I don't believe!

AntiochusIII

12-10-2005, 04:44

I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.Therefore the Bible cannot be taken literally, eh? How, then, shall we understand our poor Creator? Also, considering how the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament in some major points, shouldn't we be worried that an omnipresent being should've been eternally...stable?

as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.Nobody's sure, but real scientists have discovered the Bible's scientific value along the lines of the Vedas' and the (less direct comparison) Iliad's value. Troy was found; now it's time for Sodom and Gomorrah. ~;) Nonetheless, if "God" do such thing then the omnipresent being is a hypocrisy; and nothing's supposed to be contradictory about an absolute divine identity.

Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?How nice of you...now, shall we go and teach Fred Phelps that? ~:handball:

This rule actually makes a lot of social/economic sense in many ancient societies; otakus wouldn't survive the ancient world, people still needed to work together to live.

:bow:

---------------------------------

Little Lost Boy's interpretation of the Bible is off, by the way. He seems to be relying on the epic poetry Paradise Lost on many of the events that he claim happened/will happen. The various versions of Bible and accompanying religious texts continuously contradicts each other from the first chapter to the end. It gives me a headache to decide which one is the authentic (none?) version.

bmolsson

12-11-2005, 09:48

Just a reflection. Gay is a sin and gay people should burn in hell. Abortion is equal to murdering babies.
So what about gay babies ? Are they ok to abort...... :huh:

Byzantine Mercenary

12-11-2005, 15:27

So God is more than a ghost. He gives rules but they're not clear so the writers screw all up, except for some parts that the Church finds to be fine?
no!, gods rule is very clear, love your neighbour

If you've faith you should know the answer by now.
is this a joke?:san_huh: i have a personal opnion on this but of course but am open to other possibilities

No I wouldn't. God is absolute and infalible, if I believed in such things I'll take a banner like all this people and try to save my soul of eternal damnation. Thanks God I don't believe!
I don't think that you understand the christian message, there is nothing anyone can do to deserve absolution, it is a gift freely given by god

Byzantine Mercenary

12-11-2005, 15:38

Therefore the Bible cannot be taken literally, eh? How, then, shall we understand our poor Creator?
by what Jesus taught

Also, considering how the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament in some major points, shouldn't we be worried that an omnipresent being should've been eternally...stable?
The old testament had parts that were wrong jesus came to reveal new teachings

Nobody's sure, but real scientists have discovered the Bible's scientific value along the lines of the Vedas' and the (less direct comparison) Iliad's value. Troy was found; now it's time for Sodom and Gomorrah. ~;) Nonetheless, if "God" do such thing then the omnipresent being is a hypocrisy; and nothing's supposed to be contradictory about an absolute divine identity.
It is hard to judge the scientific value of a book that is so old, however sites that may have been sodom and gamorah have been found and they were indeed destroyed by a disaster

How nice of you...now, shall we go and teach Fred Phelps that? ~:handball:
you could try but i doubt he would listen

This rule actually makes a lot of social/economic sense in many ancient societies; otakus wouldn't survive the ancient world, people still needed to work together to live.
Indeed, that is part of the reason that i believe in it

Soulforged

12-11-2005, 17:27

no!, gods rule is very clear, love your neighbourNo! He's not clear. Kill the sinners, kill the egiptians and send to hell everybody that don't believes in me. Now, Jesus confuses things.

is this a joke?:san_huh: i have a personal opnion on this but of course but am open to other possibilitiesNo it's not a joke. If the Bible sais that God did it, then you've to believe that he did because you have faith, faith is not open to second opinions.

I don't think that you understand the christian message, there is nothing anyone can do to deserve absolution, it is a gift freely given by godI understand it very well. Went to a private school dependant of a missionary group of nuns, they filled me with christian propaganda everyday of the week. So God gives it freely you say? Ha! This is even funnier. That will mean that even if you do follow his path (whatever it is, with all the contradictions) you could end up without a gift then? As I said God in all religions is no more than a tyrant. And this happens wheter you accept your questionable premise (freely) or mine (conditional).

Soulforged

12-11-2005, 17:29

GoreBag

12-11-2005, 22:35

Just a reflection. Gay is a sin and gay people should burn in hell.

I heard once that this was a throwback to the rules of the Judeans, who frowned upon homosexuality because it was thought that they, as a people, should breed, in order to become numerous enough to defend themselves.

Soulforged

12-12-2005, 04:21

I heard once that this was a throwback to the rules of the Judeans, who frowned upon homosexuality because it was thought that they, as a people, should breed, in order to become numerous enough to defend themselves.
Could be...The bible bans it as "unnatural".:san_huh:

AntiochusIII

12-12-2005, 05:33

by what Jesus taughtBut there is this little problem that the various versions of the Bible (and I mean the ones within 300 years after Jesus' death, not something like King James') are different. Which one is Jesus' words?

The old testament had parts that were wrong jesus came to reveal new teachingsIf they were wrong, why write them down as God's will in the first place? Did God...change his mind? And, according to the Old Testament, God intervened several times acting with Old Testament ideals in mind; some of which contradicted with the New Testament's message.

It is hard to judge the scientific value of a book that is so old, however sites that may have been sodom and gamorah have been found and they were indeed destroyed by a disasterYes, I've seen some theories. Nothing as strong as the Trojan one yet, though.

The hand of God in it...on the other hand, might cause some major contradictions.

you could try but i doubt he would listenWill he be in Hell or Heaven? Of my limited understanding, Christianity requires faith in God more than actions. (Not for Catholics, though, but Phelps is technically a Protestant.) His actions are vile, but he most likely is faithful, isn't he?

Could be...The bible bans it as "unnatural".The way of the Commandments are not to give practical reasons, I believe, because it leaves open the debate. So something as concrete as "unnatural" is necessary to force the rules--if you say "we need population so make some babies" others might argue differently; if you say "God says it's unnatural" nobody in most ancient societies will dare to break the rule.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-12-2005, 18:43

No! He's not clear. Kill the sinners, kill the egiptians and send to hell everybody that don't believes in me. Now, Jesus confuses things.
when did jesus say kill the egiptions?

No it's not a joke. If the Bible sais that God did it, then you've to believe that he did because you have faith, faith is not open to second opinions.
Youe think i don't believe god did it.?

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.

I understand it very well. Went to a private school dependant of a missionary group of nuns, they filled me with christian propaganda everyday of the week. So God gives it freely you say? Ha! This is even funnier. That will mean that even if you do follow his path (whatever it is, with all the contradictions) you could end up without a gift then? As I said God in all religions is no more than a tyrant. And this happens wheter you accept your questionable premise (freely) or mine (conditionalhe gives it freely to everyone who wants it and repent of their sins, and yet again i feel obliged to explain the path to you, love your neighbour, the rest comes from there, tyrant?, god is not so much like a dictator as a parent, he wants what is best for you but most importantly allows you to make your own choices, those are not the actions of a tyrant.

You still don't get it, right? Why did I quote the New Testament paragraphs huh?
Caused by God?
all of the bibles teachings are subordinate to the golden rule, to love your neighbour

Byzantine Mercenary

12-12-2005, 18:57

But there is this little problem that the various versions of the Bible (and I mean the ones within 300 years after Jesus' death, not something like King James') are different. Which one is Jesus' words?
If they were wrong, why write them down as God's will in the first place? Did God...change his mind? And, according to the Old Testament, God intervened several times acting with Old Testament ideals in mind; some of which contradicted with the New Testament's message.
Yes, I've seen some theories. Nothing as strong as the Trojan one yet, though.

The hand of God in it...on the other hand, might cause some major contradictions.
Will he be in Hell or Heaven? Of my limited understanding, Christianity requires faith in God more than actions. (Not for Catholics, though, but Phelps is technically a Protestant.) His actions are vile, but he most likely is faithful, isn't he?
The way of the Commandments are not to give practical reasons, I believe, because it leaves open the debate. So something as concrete as "unnatural" is necessary to force the rules--if you say "we need population so make some babies" others might argue differently; if you say "God says it's unnatural" nobody in most ancient societies will dare to break the rule.
well once again i am ansering the same question, GOD DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND (im only writing in caps to make it clear, im not yelling, lol:san_cheesy: , but times changed, so that the interpretation of gods rules also changed and the old testament is not the direct word of god it is a translation of an origional hebrew text all writeing is open to interpretation, yes even the parts that may seem clear i think in many ways jesus guided us to gods truth and tryed to remove the stuffyness that the jewish authoritys had added. on the questions of Phelps i cannot tell you what gods judgement on him will be, neither can i tell you if he is indoctrinated with false teachings or something worse.

when it comes down to it, and this is something that many atheists dont understand i am a christian because of the proof that god has given me now, not just for the prooof from the past, i have seen him guideing me and have seen his love in the people around me both christian and non christian. and also most importantly because the message that he gives makes sense to me, it fits exactly the way that i would expect an infinately loveing god to act.

I can't comment on individual christians faith and doubtless some have used god's teachings to their own advantage

Soulforged

12-13-2005, 06:04

when did jesus say kill the egiptions?This is getting tired. Jesus equals God or not, the Holy Trinity is not part of your belief system? (even the frase belief system is an oxymoron).

Youe think i don't believe god did it.?Not at all, I want to KNOW if you do.

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.And again I tell you, the WORD OF GOD, tells you that HE destroyed several towns completely, even turning people into salt. Now do you believe in it or not? Because taking the Bible literally and not doing so might be the sole argument that you should argue about.

he gives it freely to everyone who wants it and repent of their sins, and yet again i feel obliged to explain the path to you, love your neighbour, the rest comes from there, tyrant?, god is not so much like a dictator as a parent, he wants what is best for you but most importantly allows you to make your own choices, those are not the actions of a tyrant. He gives it FREELY again, that means that HE gives it, there's no rules, he could decide if you should or shouldn't make it into his house. Yes they're the actions of a tyrant, this is one is sitted in his marfil tower waiting in the Heavens, to decide who is worthy and who has messed up following his uniequivoque vission and absolute (it can't be good) conception of the truth. He has all the powers in him, he's all and is in all at the same time, the universe revolves around it's figure, men do fight in his name and praise to him, men keep staking lies in his name...He's the best tyrant ever, a tyrant so mixed in the moral views of man that he passes by like the savior and the one who gives the mortals the freedom to do what they want in the material world (this despreciable little existence) while he waits to make his true judgement someday and determine the rest of eternity, by his own rules, his own vissions and only by redempting to him and only him. Now you can see it like a "benevolent tyrant" but he's a tyrant nontheless, he's the tyrant of Heaven.

all of the bibles teachings are subordinate to the golden rule, to love your neighbourNo the rules are not clear. It always has been love God and only God because his path is the truth and the justice. Later some doctrinary with some little brain inside his skull did a little transformation turning words to fit an agenda: God's inside all of us, he's on everything, on everywhere at the same time. Thus turning the object of the rule facing the fellow man instead of the tyrant.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-13-2005, 09:56

This is getting tired. Jesus equals God or not, the Holy Trinity is not part of your belief system? (even the frase belief system is an oxymoron).
no i think you misunderstand me, i do not believe that the old testament is the direct word of god, for two reasons, firstly it was originaly writen in hebrew and all texts lose part of their full meaning when translated, secondly it was written for people with a different social background for a different time in history than me and finaly because the people writeing it down could have imposed their own beliefs on gods teaching.

Not at all, I want to KNOW if you do.
I thought i ansered this

these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god

And again I tell you, the WORD OF GOD, tells you that HE destroyed several towns completely, even turning people into salt. Now do you believe in it or not? Because taking the Bible literally and not doing so might be the sole argument that you should argue about.
i ansered this too

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.

He gives it FREELY again, that means that HE gives it, there's no rules, he could decide if you should or shouldn't make it into his house. Yes they're the actions of a tyrant, this is one is sitted in his marfil tower waiting in the Heavens, to decide who is worthy and who has messed up following his uniequivoque vission and absolute (it can't be good) conception of the truth. He has all the powers in him, he's all and is in all at the same time, the universe revolves around it's figure, men do fight in his name and praise to him, men keep staking lies in his name...He's the best tyrant ever, a tyrant so mixed in the moral views of man that he passes by like the savior and the one who gives the mortals the freedom to do what they want in the material world (this despreciable little existence) while he waits to make his true judgement someday and determine the rest of eternity, by his own rules, his own vissions and only by redempting to him and only him. Now you can see it like a "benevolent tyrant" but he's a tyrant nontheless, he's the tyrant of Heaven.
He gives his forgivness unconditionally to everyone who wants it, he doesn't decide, onces again he is not a tyrant because we have free will thats why he sent jesus for everyone, to die for everyone, to forgive everyones sins

No the rules are not clear. It always has been love God and only God because his path is the truth and the justice. Later some doctrinary with some little brain inside his skull did a little transformation turning words to fit an agenda: God's inside all of us, he's on everything, on everywhere at the same time. Thus turning the object of the rule facing the fellow man instead of the tyrant.what you are suggesting is not only unfounded it also does not make any sense, why add a passage saying that you should love everyone even your enemys?, also this message is repeated throughout the old testament. surely it is just as likely if not more so that someone added the passages in the old testament about god destroying towns to give religious backing to wars?

Soulforged

12-14-2005, 05:04

no i think you misunderstand me, i do not believe that the old testament is the direct word of god, for two reasons, firstly it was originaly writen in hebrew and all texts lose part of their full meaning when translated, secondly it was written for people with a different social background for a different time in history than me and finaly because the people writeing it down could have imposed their own beliefs on gods teaching.So Jesus is not the son of God...No wait logic does not applies to religion!!

I thought i ansered thisYes you did, however a lot of "buts" followed that answer.

i ansered this tooI think that the Bible tells you exactly why "he" "did" what "he" "did". Because they were evil, they didn't follow "his" way.

He gives his forgivness unconditionally to everyone who wants it, he doesn't decide, onces again he is not a tyrant because we have free will thats why he sent jesus for everyone, to die for everyone, to forgive everyones sinsWhat freewill? If you don't pity him you'll end up in the eternal flames. No those are unreconciliable possitions. If God is real, then you cannot change reality by saying different things. The jews still believe in predetermined fate...But wait that mistake again....logic does not applies to religion...

what you are suggesting is not only unfounded it also does not make any sense, why add a passage saying that you should love everyone even your enemys?Why not? After all having fame is not a worthless achievement.
also this message is repeated throughout the old testament. Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners.
surely it is just as likely if not more so that someone added the passages in the old testament about god destroying towns to give religious backing to wars?You've to be joking, those passages were written by God.

AntiochusIII

12-14-2005, 05:44

well once again i am ansering the same question, GOD DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND (im only writing in caps to make it clear, im not yelling, lol:san_cheesy: , but times changed, so that the interpretation of gods rules also changed and the old testament is not the direct word of god it is a translation of an origional hebrew text all writeing is open to interpretation, yes even the parts that may seem clear i think in many ways jesus guided us to gods truth and tryed to remove the stuffyness that the jewish authoritys had added.Therefore I presume you are saying that the texts cannot be taken literally. Again, might I repeat this question (to your annoyance :san_tongue: ): how, then, shall we understand God? You have vaguedly answered that we should follow the Way of Jesus Christ. But, since the texts are clearly inconsistent (among the various versions of the New Testament), the words of Jesus is lost to later generations. How, then, shall we understand God?

on the questions of Phelps i cannot tell you what gods judgement on him will be, neither can i tell you if he is indoctrinated with false teachings or something worse.Oh well. I suppose I must follow a Christian's logic: only God can judge. It is, by the way, different from the principles of the secular political systems, which require somebody living (or documents legislated by somebody living) to judge.

when it comes down to it, and this is something that many atheists dont understand i am a christian because of the proof that god has given me now, not just for the prooof from the past, i have seen him guideing me and have seen his love in the people around me both christian and non christian. and also most importantly because the message that he gives makes sense to me, it fits exactly the way that i would expect an infinately loveing god to act.Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so :san_tongue: ) then God is not infinite in this term.

I can't comment on individual christians faith and doubtless some have used god's teachings to their own advantageAgreed.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-14-2005, 16:36

So Jesus is not the son of God...No wait logic does not applies to religion!!
Yes you did, however a lot of "buts" followed that answer.
I think that the Bible tells you exactly why "he" "did" what "he" "did". Because they were evil, they didn't follow "his" way.
What freewill? If you don't pity him you'll end up in the eternal flames. No those are unreconciliable possitions. If God is real, then you cannot change reality by saying different things. The jews still believe in predetermined fate...But wait that mistake again....logic does not applies to religion...
Why not? After all having fame is not a worthless achievement. Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners. You've to be joking, those passages were written by God.

you don't apear to be listening to me and in that way you are being quite offensive i have explained repeatedly that i don't think that god literally wrote the old testament, i don't know how this guy you invented managed to 'add' the love your neighbour theme to the new testament (along with the good samaritan story i assume) and i know even less how you can deem this doctrinary famous, you missunderstand my point about changeing the old testament i just meant that there would be more to gain from adding a passage incoraging vilence

Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners.
Sorry, i meant new testament

Byzantine Mercenary

12-14-2005, 16:42

Therefore I presume you are saying that the texts cannot be taken literally. Again, might I repeat this question (to your annoyance :san_tongue: ): how, then, shall we understand God? You have vaguedly answered that we should follow the Way of Jesus Christ. But, since the texts are clearly inconsistent (among the various versions of the New Testament), the words of Jesus is lost to later generations. How, then, shall we understand God?
well, there are many way to understand god and i can assure you that the main message of jesus is intact, love your neighbour, God is love, thats what he is thats all you need to understand

Oh well. I suppose I must follow a Christian's logic: only God can judge. It is, by the way, different from the principles of the secular political systems, which require somebody living (or documents legislated by somebody living) to judge.{/QUOTE]

yes and perhaps giveing humans the power to judge has caused some of the problems accociated with this system

[QUOTE=AntiochusIII]Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so :san_tongue: ) then God is not infinite in this term.
Agreed.
im short of time at the moment i will anser this in full tomorrow for you

Soulforged

12-15-2005, 04:58

you don't apear to be listening to me and in that way you are being quite offensive i have explained repeatedly that i don't think that god literally wrote the old testament,Of course he didn't, he inspired.
i don't know how this guy you invented managed to 'add' the love your neighbour theme to the new testament (along with the good samaritan story i assume) This guy is from the papal office, a simple explanatory quote beneath the main text in your Bible. Or maybe doctrine of interpretation given to me from the christian authorities.
and i know even less how you can deem this doctrinary famous You mean deem as judge? Well I'm not judging him,
you missunderstand my point about changeing the old testament i just meant that there would be more to gain from adding a passage incoraging vilenceYou mean that I give you a passage when it encourages violence?

Sorry, i meant new testamentAdding kill the sinners?

I don't mean to be offensive, really. Many times this religion subject escapes my senses and my reason, that's why I sound offensive. In any case none of them were personal attacks. :bow:

Byzantine Mercenary

12-15-2005, 11:46

Of course he didn't, he inspired. This guy is from the papal office, a simple explanatory quote beneath the main text in your Bible. Or maybe doctrine of interpretation given to me from the christian authorities. You mean deem as judge? Well I'm not judging him,You mean that I give you a passage when it encourages violence?
Adding kill the sinners?

I don't mean to be offensive, really. Many times this religion subject escapes my senses and my reason, that's why I sound offensive. In any case none of them were personal attacks. :bow:
maybe i haven't heard of this guy because im not a catholic but ive never heard him talked about, what is his name?

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.

Puzz3D

12-15-2005, 19:01

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.
The existence or non-existence of god cannot be proven. Immanuel Kant showed that you cannot prove god exists by reasoning, and the belief that the bible or any other religious book is the word of god is highly questionable. Believe it if you want, but to me it's a simplistic way of trying to grasp the nature of existence. Religious ideology is used by people to impose a certain way of thinking on others without proof that the world actually works that way.

Soulforged

12-16-2005, 05:09

maybe i haven't heard of this guy because im not a catholic but ive never heard him talked about, what is his name?I don't know his name, "he" problaby was anonymous.

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.Well I had endless threads about it, but to do a sintesys I'll try to explain it in a few words: God is no more than an idea. God is also absolute or you believe in him or you don't, there's no middle term, there's no possibility.
Of course there's still people trying to proove that "he" is real, but those tries are so futile from the scientific point of view as irrelevant. If you've faith then good for you, my only life is this one, the real one.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-16-2005, 09:42

I don't know his name, "he" problaby was anonymous.
Well I had endless threads about it, but to do a sintesys I'll try to explain it in a few words: God is no more than an idea. God is also absolute or you believe in him or you don't, there's no middle term, there's no possibility.
Of course there's still people trying to proove that "he" is real, but those tries are so futile from the scientific point of view as irrelevant. If you've faith then good for you, my only life is this one, the real one.

well if he was anonymous than how can his aim have been to achieve fame?

what i said was that atheists refuse to accept the possibilityof the existance of god when there is no proof that he does not exist, which seems a little closed minded to me...

seeing as its on a similar subject in guess now would be a good time to anser AntiochusIII's question

Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so ) then God is not infinite in this term.

Indeed and i have pondered this question a lot and asked many of my christian friends about it too, firstly i see god in my life through the people around me that help me, and the events that happen that steer me in gods path, there have been events in my life that i would consider miraculous as well as events in the lives of people that i know. You may not believe me but god has ansered all my prayers. I think that a lot of it is in your outlook, if you don't look for the deeper meaning in events around you then you will not see it. On the question of heaven there are two ansers that i can think of offhand, the first is that on their death everyone will see a full perspective on their actions during their life and will find god and so will ask his forgiveness of their sins and so everyone will be in heaven, this is not such and outlandish concept many people who have had near death experiences have said how the experience changed their outlook on life and made them more spiritual.
The second anser is that hell could merely be seperation from god rather than a place of torture so if people don't believe in god and don't wan't to spend eternity with him then he is merely giving them what they want by sending them there.

Soulforged

12-17-2005, 01:19

well if he was anonymous than how can his aim have been to achieve fame?That part of the fame was directed to all christians, but specially to Jesus.

what i said was that atheists refuse to accept the possibilityof the existance of god when there is no proof that he does not exist, which seems a little closed minded to me...Not at all, I declare myself innocent present some proof that he actually exists. I can give you proof that he's an idea.

Indeed and i have pondered this question a lot and asked many of my christian friends about it too, firstly i see god in my life through the people around me that help me, and the events that happen that steer me in gods path, there have been events in my life that i would consider miraculous as well as events in the lives of people that i know.That's not proof that's called faith, blind belief that was God what acted in that moment.
You may not believe me but god has ansered all my prayers. I think that a lot of it is in your outlook, if you don't look for the deeper meaning in events around you then you will not see it.I only look for I can perceive I don't try to distort facts, nor words.
On the question of heaven there are two ansers that i can think of offhand, the first is that on their death everyone will see a full perspective on their actions during their life and will find god and so will ask his forgiveness of their sins and so everyone will be in heaven, this is not such and outlandish concept many people who have had near death experiences have said how the experience changed their outlook on life and made them more spiritual.That is no proof either, it's your belief and I respect it, but it's no proof.

The second anser is that hell could merely be seperation from god rather than a place of torture so if people don't believe in god and don't wan't to spend eternity with him then he is merely giving them what they want by sending them there.Well hell is described as the separation of God, but that's actually eternal damnation, away from love, from justice, from eternal life. Away from everything that's true, that's the Abyss.

Byzantine Mercenary

12-17-2005, 16:55

That part of the fame was directed to all christians, but specially to Jesus.
Not at all, I declare myself innocent present some proof that he actually exists. I can give you proof that he's an idea.
That's not proof that's called faith, blind belief that was God what acted in that moment. I only look for I can perceive I don't try to distort facts, nor words. That is no proof either, it's your belief and I respect it, but it's no proof.
im still not sure how iserting love your neighbour into the bible would make it more famous or more popular,

proof?, hmm well i guess il start with the many miricles that are performed around the world. ive heard of jesus apearing to people, sending messages through people. i saw on tv a greek authodox woman in palistine was delivering drinks to men working on a church, she fell from the top of the church a long way, and saw a vision of saint george as she fell, when they got to her she didn't have a bruise.

however i think that the best proof of christianity is the message, imagine if everyone embraced the rule, love your neighbour, around the world, if everyone gave generously to each other, if every goverment did the best for its people, surely there would be no war, no crime, all sorts of problems would simply dissapear, what a great world that would be.

Well hell is described as the separation of God, but that's actually eternal damnation, away from love, from justice, from eternal life. Away from everything that's true, that's the Abyss.
yes, the result of this would probably be the same as the first option wouldn't it?

Soulforged

12-18-2005, 01:39

im still not sure how iserting love your neighbour into the bible would make it more famous or more popular,Well it did...Didn't it?

proof?, hmm well i guess il start with the many miricles that are performed around the world. Oh yes the miracles, wonderful facts that appear to escape all REASON...:san_rolleyes:
ive heard of jesus apearing to people, sending messages through people.I've heard them too, personally and through the media, however that's not proof just a mention of some generic event. i
saw on tv a greek authodox woman in palistine was delivering drinks to men working on a church, she fell from the top of the church a long way, and saw a vision of saint george as she fell, when they got to her she didn't have a bruise.Ok but...where is the proof. This last days I heard of this a lot and saw a lot too. For example a woman who believed that the face of Jesus was in the door of his bathroom. A simple wooden formation that she would know if she only visited a workshop sometime. The son also looked at the same door and saw Jesus two times. Other people looked at it and other incredible forms there and then others who didn't saw anything special. What's needed is faith, the ability to distort the facts and adjust reality to your believes, that way you can give the same event two different explanations one real, wich can be prooved, and one false wich cannot, and wich varies subjectively. Why does this happens you might ask? Well because it's an idea, ideas are only subjective happenings there's nothing real in them so they can be turned from person to person.

however i think that the best proof of christianity is the message, imagine if everyone embraced the rule, love your neighbour, around the world, if everyone gave generously to each other, if every goverment did the best for its people, surely there would be no war, no crime, all sorts of problems would simply dissapear, what a great world that would be.I agree with you, though I don't think that the message is that clear. But then again is a too idealistic vission of the world...And also a discussion in wich I'll not enter. I repeat I agree with you and I follow that rule too, you don't have to be religeous to do such thing.

Edit: Spelling.

Byzantine Prince

12-18-2005, 03:24

And the award for most pointless debate ever in the history goes to... this thread. :san_laugh:

Mods I beg you to close this annoying thread, it has become worse then an eyesore. Do it for baby Jesus! :san_grin:

Abokasee

12-18-2005, 13:46

[I]November 26, 2005
1:30 pm – 2:00 pm

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/20051119_seattle-wa2.jpg

a bit to zealous... i under stand they dont like gay marriges but saying they go to hell is over the top

and saying Dead soldeirs are good is just insulting at least they died bravely

Puzz3D

12-18-2005, 14:17

And the award for most pointless debate ever in the history goes to... this thread. :san_laugh:
You're loosing the argument, so now it's pointless and you want the thread closed? Christianity is not a tolerant religion who's message is simply love thy neighbor.

Geoffrey S

12-18-2005, 15:06

The existence or non-existence of god cannot be proven. Immanuel Kant showed that you cannot prove god exists by reasoning, and the belief that the bible or any other religious book is the word of god is highly questionable. Believe it if you want, but to me it's a simplistic way of trying to grasp the nature of existence. Religious ideology is used by people to impose a certain way of thinking on others without proof that the world actually works that way.
That's the one. The difficult thing about believing is actually is the believing part; being able to tell yourself that no, God can't be proven through our mortal means, but that He does exist. This is something I cannot do, or at least not yet. The Bible was written by mortal hands, and has undoubtedly been corrupted over the millennia; it doesn't represent God for me, hence I find it impossible at the moment to treat it as the truth. I can't put my faith in something so intangible, something based on such unsteady ground. Yet if people believe they can do so, all the better for them.

Byzantine Prince

12-18-2005, 16:50

You're loosing the argument, so now it's pointless and you want the thread closed? Christianity is not a tolerant religion who's message is simply love thy neighbor.
Wrong Byzantine. :san_wink:

Byzantine Mercenary

12-18-2005, 21:21

''You're loosing the argument, so now it's pointless and you want the thread closed? ''
i think that the problem with this particualar argument is that no one can lose it, its a matter of faith
Im not asking for this thread to be closed and i don't see how anyone is loseing this argument

''Christianity is not a tolerant religion who's message is simply love thy neighbor.''
huh? what are you on about, in the past with the crusades etc it had a bad reputation but nowerdays id say that the church is very tolerant.

Soulforged, im a rational person which is why i don't base my faith soley on miricules, to me the most important thing is the central message which many people, includeing a few radical 'christians' (like phelps) ignore...

Soulforged

12-18-2005, 22:06

Soulforged, im a rational person which is why i don't base my faith soley on miricules, to me the most important thing is the central message which many people, includeing a few radical 'christians' (like phelps) ignore...
I never called you irrational. All mans are rational beings (except if they born with some condition), but it's a different thing to use that reason. You use it, but having faith implies that you leave reason in some point becayse faith replaces it. I leave reason many times for other causes, faith is not the only cause of irrationality, not by a long shot.
Now I suppose that if that's the way you take your religion then I'm as much christian as you're.:san_wink:

Copperhaired Berserker!

12-18-2005, 22:10

Now, i may not be religious, but I still respect other people's religions a lot. But hell am i gonaa respect that!:san_angry:

bmolsson

12-19-2005, 02:17

That's the one. The difficult thing about believing is actually is the believing part; being able to tell yourself that no, God can't be proven through our mortal means, but that He does exist. This is something I cannot do, or at least not yet. The Bible was written by mortal hands, and has undoubtedly been corrupted over the millennia; it doesn't represent God for me, hence I find it impossible at the moment to treat it as the truth. I can't put my faith in something so intangible, something based on such unsteady ground. Yet if people believe they can do so, all the better for them.

It might be so simple that we yet have to develop the scientific methods to see God and other immortal beings.... :san_wink:
After all, it took a while before we could see atoms etc.....

Byzantine Mercenary

12-19-2005, 15:26

I never called you irrational. All mans are rational beings (except if they born with some condition), but it's a different thing to use that reason. You use it, but having faith implies that you leave reason in some point becayse faith replaces it. I leave reason many times for other causes, faith is not the only cause of irrationality, not by a long shot.
Now I suppose that if that's the way you take your religion then I'm as much christian as you're.:san_wink:
well, i do use my reason to question my own faith, the fact is that the history is very hard to prove either way.
the worlds existance, why we are here, does not make sense to me without a god.
Imagine there were no laws of physics and you randomly created an existance, how many of those existances would manage to support sentiant life?
and also when was the beggining of the universe? what was there before then? is there gonna be an end?
it just doen't make sense if the universe is just an accident.

back on topic, there is a big difference between being against phelps and guys like him and being against christians, of course we should not respect his attacks on gay people.