This Martial Arts Nonsense

[Adrian II]

After the thread about grandmaster Tu’s martial penis, I believe a public spanking is in order for all these so-called martial arts from the East and Far East. We know that the oldest schools such as the Chi of Shaolin (http://www.randi.org/jr/101703.html) are simply circus-acts, that their extraordinary ‘accomplishments’ are the work of scam-artists and their supposedly age-old ‘mystery’ philosophies are bogus. It is all stunts and unproven theories, no facts and measurable achievements.

Even the more pedestrian schools and varieties such as judo and jiujitsu are mostly nonsense, many of their instructors lack elementary knowledge of sports physiology and their moves involve a lot of art and almost no martiality. According to street fighter and boxing instructor Ned Beaumont (http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/SportingLife.html) an average boxer can take out any Eastern-style ‘ultimate killer’ with a wrestling hold and a couple well-placed hooks and jabs. Just look at the silly spinning routines of Tae Kwon Do and ask yourself: what use is a kick that has been telegraphed to the intended victim half an hour before? Ridiculous. Karate destroys your fitness because it consists of short outbursts of activity, all in similar mold, and in between long periods of standing still in unnatural poses (mind your meniscus, people).

The only place where this nonsense belongs is in a fighting ring where every participant is bound by the same rules. Out on the street Eastern styles always lose out against good old Western boxing techniques. If anything, Eastern martial arts instructors make unnecessary victims because they give their students a false sense of confidence.

Finally, why are dojo’s decorated like Chinese temples and Japanese brothels? ‘There is no reason to hang Japanese slogans on the walls, especially if no-one can read them,’ writes British karateka Kevin Boone ( http://www.kevinboone.com/karate_myths.html): ‘There is no reason to make obseisance to the founders of karate -- they are dead, and beyond mortal concern. Many karate practitioners feel that karate is a Japanese art and that their training practices should be rooted in Japan. But consider this: would you expect a Japanese rugby football team to carry on its training in pidgin English? Would you expect the team headquarters to be decorated with Union Jacks and horse brasses? Would you expect the players to finish a match, drink ten pints of lager and get into the showers together while singing Eskimo Nell? Of course you wouldn't. But that's what many British karate clubs are doing, in effect.’

Oh, and he also says this: ‘Have you ever wondered how some martial artists can punch through an eight-inch thickness of concrete slabs? I'm going to let you into a closely-guarded secret here, so listen carefully. All you have to do is -- are you paying attention? -- all you have to do is to practice punching hard objects for years and years and years. That's all there is to it. But don't tell anyone I told you, because it's a secret.’

What does this tell us about poor grandmaster Tu? I mean, imagine him going through years and years and years of these warm-ups… ~:eek:

[Soulforged]

I knew there had to be some BS regarding the philosophical world of martial artists. But does this mean that master Tu "warmed-up" his penis this way? I don't know, this is like the extreme of ascetism, I cannot imagine a person provoquing such selfinflicted pain just for the sake of demostrations.
In any case interesting, I didn't know that there was such a superiority of Western style over the arts of Orient. I saw some master of the Shaolin temple saying once (someone had seen him practicing Box):-Why do you practice box?-Asked the curious one. Master- "Because Kung Fu is superior but box is faster and gives you agility." Perhaps a mixture of the two will do the best form, but I think that this already exists.

[Meneldil]

Even the more pedestrian schools and varieties such as judo and jiujitsu are mostly nonsense, many of their instructors lack elementary knowledge of sports physiology and their moves involve a lot of art and almost no martiality. According to street fighter and boxing instructor Ned Beaumont (http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/SportingLife.html) an average boxer can take out any Eastern-style ‘ultimate killer’ with a wrestling hold and a couple well-placed hooks and jabs. Just look at the silly spinning routines of Tae Kwon Do and ask yourself: what use is a kick that has been telegraphed to the intended victim half an hour before? Ridiculous. Karate destroys your fitness because it consists of short outbursts of activity, all in similar mold, and in between long periods of standing still in unnatural poses (mind your meniscus, people).



Errr, well, I might be kinda biased, being a person who think martial arts are over-roxors, but I more than once saw friends of mine kicking some serious arses using Tae Kwon Do, Karate or some other weird eastern stuff.
Plus, there must be a reason why some special forces adopted some eastern-like martial art rather than wrestling ^^

[Togakure]

~:rolleyes: Nice try, AdrianII. A big GAH for you on this one. Responding to this in any detail would be like an expert historian responding to the notion that the Holocaust didn't happen. It seems to me that you've made a grand generalization, implicitly equating the likes of this stretched charlatan with great men like Ueshiba Morihei and Bruce Lee, baiting folks here and hoping for an entertaining free-for-all.

*shrugs*

If the the kids here want to squabble disrespectfully about traditions and disciplines that have survived longer than most western countries, which they know little to nothing about, okay by me. It'll just be the same ol' baselessly opinionated shyte, different flavor.

*yawns* ~:handball:

Edit: correct grammar error

[Red Harvest]

Depends on what sort of martial arts you are talking about I guess. Muay Thai boxing is some serious street fighting from what I saw of it in one of their gyms overseas...reminded me of what my dad had taught me.

I did notice that those Muay Thai boxers had a bad habit of dropping their left and the coach never commented on it...could have just been the gym, but they wouldn't have lasted long versus a regular boxer. I wouldn't ever let those guys get inside on me...far too dangerous, as they excelled with elbow moves and the like. However, I could see when they were going to drop their hands just from watching them work out and spar for a few minutes. I won't claim to have been a great boxer (lack the natural speed and power of the really competitive guys), but I do take advantage of opponents' mistakes. They could drop their hands like that once, maybe twice while I analyzed it, but on the 3rd time it would be "lights out."

On the other hand, those Muay Thai fighters were in superb condition, even compared to what I was accustomed to. All they needed in that gym was a little more emphasis on some of the basic boxing skills to round them out nicely.

Some traditional boxers I've known switched to kickboxing because it was easier to be competitive. They just had to get in their required kicks. I remember one guy from the gym who was really lacking as a boxer and wanted to go pro. Instead he went for a professional kickboxing match, his first one. He had been selected as an easy fight for the kickboxer to pad his record. Instead he walked over and knocked the kickboxer out in the first minute with simple straight punches. Nothing fancy, just basic skills.

[Soulforged]

If the the kids here want to squabble disrespectfully about traditions and disciplines that have survived longer than most western countries, which they know little to nothing about, okay by me. It'll just be the same ol' baselessly opinionated shyte, different flavor.But please enghlight of with your knowledge so I can give a worthy opinion...After all this is a forum right?

[Meneldil]

Well, for example, we all know that Ninjas have the Real Ultimate Power. They're cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet. They fight ALL the time, they are mamals, and their purpose is to flip out and kill people (http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm) ~:pat:

[Togakure]

But please enghlight of with your knowledge so I can give a worthy opinion...After all this is a forum right?
What makes you think I have any knowledge? I know nothing. Besides, there is plenty of "light" in here, given the unending flow of ... err ... 'worthy' opinions. I'm curious though, what is it that makes your opinions "worthy," in anyone else's mind but your own? And why is it that you require someone else's opinion upon which to feed, rather than simply expressing your own?

Yes, last time I checked this was still a forum.

And how does AdrianII judge whether a patron is an asset to this forum or not?


Well, for example, we all know that Ninjas have the Real Ultimate Power. They're cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet. They fight ALL the time, they are mamals, and their purpose is to flip out and kill people
Now THIS is knowledge. I think I will have to find and execute the maker of this site. He should not be giving away ancient ninja secrets like this ... .

[Sasaki Kojiro]

AdrianII I must say you are completely off base on this. This man can do amazing things as a result of his eastern martial arts discipline:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/873/

[lars573]

After the thread about grandmaster Tu’s martial penis, I believe a public spanking is in order for all these so-called martial arts from the East and Far East. We know that the oldest schools such as the Chi of Shaolin (http://www.randi.org/jr/101703.html) are simply circus-acts, that their extraordinary ‘accomplishments’ are the work of scam-artists and their supposedly age-old ‘mystery’ philosophies are bogus. It is all stunts and unproven theories, no facts and measurable achievements.

Even the more pedestrian schools and varieties such as judo and jiujitsu are mostly nonsense, many of their instructors lack elementary knowledge of sports physiology and their moves involve a lot of art and almost no martiality. According to street fighter and boxing instructor Ned Beaumont (http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/SportingLife.html) an average boxer can take out any Eastern-style ‘ultimate killer’ with a wrestling hold and a couple well-placed hooks and jabs. Just look at the silly spinning routines of Tae Kwon Do and ask yourself: what use is a kick that has been telegraphed to the intended victim half an hour before? Ridiculous. Karate destroys your fitness because it consists of short outbursts of activity, all in similar mold, and in between long periods of standing still in unnatural poses (mind your meniscus, people).

The only place where this nonsense belongs is in a fighting ring where every participant is bound by the same rules. Out on the street Eastern styles always lose out against good old Western boxing techniques. If anything, Eastern martial arts instructors make unnecessary victims because they give their students a false sense of confidence.

Finally, why are dojo’s decorated like Chinese temples and Japanese brothels? ‘There is no reason to hang Japanese slogans on the walls, especially if no-one can read them,’ writes British karateka Kevin Boone ( http://www.kevinboone.com/karate_myths.html): ‘There is no reason to make obseisance to the founders of karate -- they are dead, and beyond mortal concern. Many karate practitioners feel that karate is a Japanese art and that their training practices should be rooted in Japan. But consider this: would you expect a Japanese rugby football team to carry on its training in pidgin English? Would you expect the team headquarters to be decorated with Union Jacks and horse brasses? Would you expect the players to finish a match, drink ten pints of lager and get into the showers together while singing Eskimo Nell? Of course you wouldn't. But that's what many British karate clubs are doing, in effect.’

Oh, and he also says this: ‘Have you ever wondered how some martial artists can punch through an eight-inch thickness of concrete slabs? I'm going to let you into a closely-guarded secret here, so listen carefully. All you have to do is -- are you paying attention? -- all you have to do is to practice punching hard objects for years and years and years. That's all there is to it. But don't tell anyone I told you, because it's a secret.’

What does this tell us about poor grandmaster Tu? I mean, imagine him going through years and years and years of these warm-ups… ~:eek:
I'll agree that some eastern martial arts styles are total Bull Shit, with Aikido being at the top of the list. But some are mean't for ass-kicking plain and simple. Those include Muay-Thai, Sambo, and some Indian style who's name escapes me.

[Adrian II]

And how does AdrianII judge whether a patron is an asset to this forum or not?Simple, because AdrianII is a human equipped with a functional brain etcetera and capable of judging for himself.

Now I gave all sorts of reasons in support of a statement and you gave none to oppose it. You say that some of these 'arts' are older than most western countries. As far as I know all such claims are unproven. And even if they were true, so what? It remains to be proven that these 'arts' are any good compared to Western boxing and that they are not fake like the Shaolin mumbo jumbo. Some schools that make the most extraordinary claims about their 'arts' are notorious no-shows in scientific tests and face-offs with other techniques.

[Adrian II]

AdrianII I must say you are completely off base on this. This man can do amazing things as a result of his eastern martial arts discipline:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/873/Thank you so much, Sasaki Kojiro. That was two minutes of unadulterated pleasure. Now that man is a worthy follower of a real ancient art, the Kabuki tradition. The last part was brilliant.
:bow:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Simple, because AdrianII is a human equipped with a functional brain etcetera and capable of judging for himself.

Now I gave all sorts of reasons in support of a statement and you gave none to oppose it. You say that some of these 'arts' are older than most western countries. As far as I know all such claims are unproven. And even if they were true, so what? It remains to be proven that these 'arts' are any good compared to Western boxing and that they are not fake like the Shaolin mumbo jumbo. Some schools that make the most extraordinary claims about their 'arts' are notorious no-shows in scientific tests and face-offs with other techniques.

They make up some crazy stuff so all the teenagers who want to be badass will pay money at the dojo. I don't know if that means the fighting styles themselves are useless. A lot of it looks real flashy but probably isn't that usefull, it makes for nice movies though, I guess that's what I always thought martial arts was about, instead of fighting.

I watch "ultimate fighter" from time to time and I'm not convinced of the superiority of western style boxing. Seen people try to box and then get kicked around or brought to the ground and and submitted ar beaten up.

http://www.mmaringreport.com/ufc/ufc52/ufc_52/stpierre_miller_11.jpg

Usually it's only the heavyweight fighters who can knock someone out with a punch.

[doc_bean]

Back when I did Tae Kwon Do (Elementary school essentially) I noticed that i did have an advantage when i got into fights. It's not like I was giving roundhouse kicks to the face or anything, but you do pick up a thing or two. In fights I've seen, if there was a person involved with a bit of martial arts experience, he would usually win and often dominate the fight.

I don't know how effective these martial arts are compared to regular boxing, but keep in mind that regular boxing involves getting punched in the face quite a lot. This isn't my idea of a fun hobby. Of course, since it gives you actual fighting experience, it's a safe bet that when it comes to learning how to actually win serious fights, it's one of best options. Experience is the best teacher.

And indeed, there is a lot to say about fighting with just punches. After all, while a kick is more powerful in theory (I think at least) it's a lot more difficult to use, requires proper clothing, can leave you more exposed and vulnerable, can mess up your balance, is harder to aim, etc. Generally speaking, you should only kick your opponent when he's down. I'm not sure about grips, a lot of them seem quite effective, of course, you have to get close enough to actually use them.

My general opinion about martial arts is that they can help you in a fight, if you know how to use them. But mostly, you should practice them because you like doing them, not to become bulletproof. And really, you should avoid getting into fights.

[Proletariat]

Great thread. Now I'm in the mood to watch a little Pride.

[Togakure]

... Now I gave all sorts of reasons in support of a statement and you gave none to oppose it. ...
Yes, indeed. ~:) :bow:


Simple, because AdrianII is a human equipped with a functional brain etcetera and capable of judging for himself.
Yes, and a mouth and arsehole too--though which you talk out of at any given moment is a crap chute. Now, if I could just figure how to harness egos and transform them into energy, I would solve the world's energy problems.

[Soulforged]

What makes you think I have any knowledge? I know nothing. Besides, there is plenty of "light" in here, given the unending flow of ... err ... 'worthy' opinions. I'm curious though, what is it that makes your opinions "worthy," in anyone else's mind but your own? And why is it that you require someone else's opinion upon which to feed, rather than simply expressing your own?The fact that you said we were speaking out of ignorance, I mean such statement implies knowledge in the negative comparision. If I'm ignorant then you *know* why I'm ignorant, for instance you've knowledge on the subject. I meant worthy in the sense of being based on true knowledge, that that you are able to provide. I expressed my opinion, however if you've something to englight me it will be even better.

[Adrian II]

Usually it's only the heavyweight fighters who can knock someone out with a punch.That is what characters like Boone and Beaumont say as well. And I believe that whomever you are fighting and no matter in what 'style', it just pays off have good all-round fitness. Some martial arts will give you that, others won't. Maybe a combination of body weight, all-round fitness and morale is more decisive than finding your 'center', breathing like a tiger, moving like a cricket, etcetera.

In fact I believe I hate and despise the accompanying mumbo jumbo more than the 'arts' themselves. The awed followers, the ridiculous routines, the 'timeless wisdom' directly taken off the bathroom birthday calender. Yuk. But I believe that something like yoga for instance can have very beneficial effects, though not of the kind that is usually advertised.

Although even a good thing can be taken too far. ~:eek:


https://img389.imageshack.us/img389/6386/081001fakir1yc.th.jpg (https://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=081001fakir1yc.jpg)

[doc_bean]

Maybe a combination of body weight, all-round fitness and morale is more decisive than finding your 'center', breathing like a tiger, moving like a cricket, etcetera.


That kind of 'mumbo jumbo' is mainly aimed at achieving one thing. Calmness. A fighter who can keep thinking in the middle of a fight has a big advantage over an opponent who just wildly throws punches.

Good breathing is also important, as it is in any sport, because it gives you better endurance.

Another possibly important aspect is balance. What else is 'finding your center' about ? Balance is essential in any fight, but it gets even more important when you look at your typical martial art style. I mentioned in a previous post the ineffectiveness of kicks. Well, this can be largely countered by improving your balance. Without proper balance you'll never get a decent kick in. (You can still knee 'em though :knight: ).

[Sasaki Kojiro]

In fact I believe I hate and despise the accompanying mumbo jumbo more than the 'arts' themselves. The awed followers, the ridiculous routines, the 'timeless wisdom' directly taken off the bathroom birthday calender. Yuk. But I believe that something like yoga for instance can have very beneficial effects, though not of the kind that is usually advertised.




Well, that's what people want...they all watched "the karate kid" where daniel became a super fighter by painting fences ~:joker:

I'm sure if when those martial arts are studied as a way of fighting rather than than a philosophy of life they produce tough fighters.

[Red Harvest]

I watch "ultimate fighter" from time to time and I'm not convinced of the superiority of western style boxing. Seen people try to box and then get kicked around or brought to the ground and and submitted ar beaten up.

I haven't watched them much, saw some guys trying to get into it on a show recently, and they were just awful. No real boxing skills, they weren't even trying to deliver simple straight combinations. And they were having no luck taking each other out.


Usually it's only the heavyweight fighters who can knock someone out with a punch.
Not at all, it's about welterweight where the power starts to show in boxing. Below welterweight few have enough power to take someone out with a single punch, at welterweight (147 lbs in USABF) single punches start becoming dangerous and I've seen quite a few single punch knockouts this way. (Hey, I've seen stars from a single punch at welterweight...but I didn't go down, never been off my feet in the ring or sparring, although I've been TKO'ed.) Middleweights have lots of power and I've seen them knock each other out many times. I watched one of the better middleweights in our club both receive and deliver a knockdown at the same time. He was able to regain his feet, the other guy was out. Crowd loved it!

When I was at welterweight my sparring partner was a very good lefty middleweight (different fellow.) He won nearly all of his bouts by single punch knockouts in the first round. He blacked both my eyes while sparring once...but never took me off my feet. He had a great style, good upper body/head mobility, he would suck you forward with this movement while you were trying to connect, then nail you with an overhand left (instead of a right since he was a lefty) when you were pulling back. All around nice guy too and in great shape...despite rarely needing more than a round or two. I don't think I ever caught him as good as he did me with a headshot, although I was able to "finish" him for a session with body blows--can't hit the mobile head, go for the less mobile body. ~;) (That was courtesy of our Texas state champion welterweight showed me how to land nice long range rights to the body, hooking at the end.)

Once you start getting heavier speed is reduced as is the frequency of punches. There is tremendous power behind them, but they have a harder time actually landing cleanly versus other boxers. The better fighting occurs from welterweight to cruiserweight. Heavyweights are boring, but powerful.

[Togakure]

... I'm sure if when those martial arts are studied as a way of fighting rather than than a philosophy of life they produce tough fighters.
It's the integration of these two that produces the most "tough fighters," from what I've seen. It's similar to music--one can become a masterful technician and still not play with artistic mastery.

There are so many charlatans who make a mockery of martial "arts." For every legitimate teacher or school there must be 20 utterly ridiculous excuses for such. Is this good reason to be disdainful of all of them?

For those who are sincerely interested, you might try searching up on the transition from the use of the suffix "jutsu" to the use of the suffix "do" in Japanese martial arts. There is bit of information out there about this; it speaks to the change from "fighting ways" to "arts" over the years, how and why this came about, etc..

[buujin]

You guys will probly notice, if you watch any mixed martial arts competitions such as UFC, that traditional western boxing makes up quite a small minority of the range of techniques used by the fighters. 90 percent of these fights will end up on the ground which is where systems such as jujitsu come into thier own and dominate the field.

Also, by my judgement the kicks and knee strikes uitilised in muay thai are just as practical as any western boxing techniques, eccpecially for those of light to medium bodyweight. If a fighter goes into one of these cages solely as a boxer, and start bobbing and ducking around like they in the WBA, you can expect he'll get knocked out by a swift shin kick to the face before long.

Any successfull MMA fighter will have a large range of techiniques at his disposal, and my bets are that three quarters of these techniques will come from adapted and developed systems of old eastern martial arts.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I haven't watched them much, saw some guys trying to get into it on a show recently, and they were just awful. No real boxing skills, they weren't even trying to deliver simple straight combinations. And they were having no luck taking each other out.



That's the the ultimate fighter II...the reality tv show. And yeah, they suck. The actual thing is better.

[Togakure]

Have you watched the older ones? I seem to remember a Brazilian guy winning in the ones I saw, ages ago. He took quite a beating, waited for his opportunity, then wrapped his opponents up like a python and slowly squeezed the fight out of them. He had a very odd style, surprisingly effective. I think the guy's name was Gracie, and he comes from a family of "martial artists."

Edit: Yeah, the Gracies (http://bjj.org/family.html) are apparently Scottish immigrants to Brazil who were originally introduced to "jiu jitsu" by a Japanese immigrant.

[buujin]

that will be brazillian jujitsu then :)
Its incredibly practical and well developted for groundwork and submission grappling. Adapted originally from the japanese system

[Proletariat]

Edit: Yeah, the Gracies (http://bjj.org/family.html) are apparently Scottish immigrants to Brazil who were originally introduced to "jiu jitsu" by a Japanese immigrant.

Right, then a Japanese fellow named Sakuraba kicked his and the rest of his family's asses and was named The Gracie Hunter. Then Sakuraba was pounded by Wanderlai Silva, a Brazilian who employs a vicious maui thai style.

Great stuff. ~:cheers:

[Togakure]

Kazushi Sakuraba (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=84)

Wanderlai Silva (http://www.maxfighting.com/index.cfm?nid=294&ac=news.detail)

Google-icious. ~:cheers:

[Adrian II]

Yes, and a mouth and arsehole too--though which you talk out of at any given moment is a crap chute.My, we haven't found our inner peace yet, have we? ~;)

Reminds me of the Bart Simpson episode where Bart goes to the local McDojo to learn some kewl kicks. When the sensei starts unloading the usual crap about inner peace Bart goes: 'Hey, I already know how not to hit a guy!'

[DemonArchangel]

Ok. Adrian II, that guy really did pull that truck with his dong. What does that tell you about the type of training he had/has?

In terms of fighting, it's not about the art, so much as how well you can handle your body and mind.

Yes, psychological mindset has something to do with it. That's why I consider Togakure Ojonin to be one scary motherf***er, because he is psychologically ready to beat the shit out of someone. Red Harvest, too, he can maintain a clear head while fighting. Physically, Togakure is a fairly small guy, he's probably isn't as physically strong or fit as I am. What he does have though, is a calm mindset. I'd rather fight someone like Capo; despite the fact that Capo is signifcantly larger than I am, there's a good chance that he would just start randomly swinging towards the general direction of my head or trying blindly to tackle me, instead of making measured, well thought out assaults.

[Togakure]

I enjoy expressing myself openly and seemingly without reserve sometimes ~:) . Takuan (Soho) did too. He's an interesting read--maybe you would understand his stuff if you tried (though given the things you've said you "hate" in this thread, maybe you'd turn off on the first page).

"The Unfettered Mind," Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master - Takuan Soho. Translation by William Scott Wilson ISBN-0-87011-851-X

Found my inner peace?? Oho ... no, not yet, not by a long shot. Occasionally I still take immense pleasure in hurting people--particularly those I judge to be assholes--just for the sheer pleasure of it. Did I give you the impression that I was an enlightened sort? Ha ... nooooo. Working on it though.

C'mon--you can do better. Pindar already used these angles to twy and huwt my feewings, without success. Twy again? Wassa matta, ain't gettin' none tonight?

[DemonArchangel]

Found my inner peace?? Oho ... no, not yet, not by a long shot. Occasionally I still take immense pleasure in hurting people--particularly those I judge to be assholes--just for the sheer pleasure of it. Did I give you the impression that I was an enlightened sort? Ha ... nooooo. Working on it though.



My point exactly.

[Adrian II]

Yes, psychological mindset has something to do with it.Sure, I mentioned 'morale' as being important and probably a decisive factor in any style of fighting, along with body weight and general physical fitness. Morale covers a lot of different potential mental states that may all be conducive to good fighting skills, depending on the person's character. I fail to see what Eastern psychological concepts could add here. 'Inner peace' is much too vague and the notion of 'inner balance' seems out of place for elderly citizens pulling trucks with their penises.
:bow:

[Togakure]

... because he is psychologically ready to beat the shit out of someone. ...
:bow: You are overly impressed with me, my friend. I am not so formidable. I'm just a guy who likes unagi ... .

I don't think there is any point in "beating the sh*t" out of anyone. If it comes down to violence, and it can't be avoided ... well, if you're going to do a thing, do it right--you get my meaning? This is why I suck as an aikidoka.

OK, I need to stop entertaining Adrian now ... this thread doesn't deserve it.

[DemonArchangel]

Sure, I mentioned 'morale' as being important and probably a decisive factor in any style of fighting, along with body weight and general physical fitness. Morale covers a lot of different potential mental states that may all be conducive to good fighting skills, depending on the person's character. I fail to see what Eastern psychological concepts could add here. 'Inner peace' is much too vague and the notion of 'inner balance' seems out of place for elderly citizens pulling trucks with their penises.
:bow:

Inner peace doesn't help you in a fight. It helps keep you OUT of fights, which is the best self-defense there is.

After all, the 2 best pieces of self-defense advice as are follows.

1.) Try not to get into fights.

2.) RUN.

If the above 2 fail, then you may fight.

[Adrian II]

Inner peace doesn't help you in a fight.A couple of posts back you wrote that a 'calm mindset' or 'clear head' is a great advantage in a fight.

The two pieces of self-defense advice are universal and well-known, though they are usually given to children who are too inexperienced to judge situations and to decide whether it is better to run or fight. I also teach my kids not to get into fights. But as the second option, instead of 'run!' I teach them to run-and-get-help which is more appropriate in most violent situations.
:bow:

[DemonArchangel]

A couple of posts back you wrote that a 'calm mindset' or 'clear head' is a great advantage in a fight.

The two pieces of self-defense advice are universal and well-known, though they are usually given to children who are too inexperienced to judge situations and to decide whether it is better to run or fight. I also teach my kids not to get into fights. But as the second option, instead of 'run!' I teach them to run-and-get-help which is more appropriate in most violent situations.
:bow:

Inner peace is somewhat different from that (at least according to me). I'll leave you guessing.

[Soulforged]

Inner peace is somewhat different from that (at least according to me). I'll leave you guessing.
I think that you don't understand the point. "Inner peace" and "inner balance" seem to be ad hoc concepts, not only that, but they're vague, wich means not defined well, so you can't know for certain what they mean. It's much like the concept of "ki" wich is also vague and could refer to a lot of things, or could take so many forms that it loses consistency. For instance you lose the object because it's no delimited.

[Aurelian]

I'll agree that some eastern martial arts styles are total Bull Shit, with Aikido being at the top of the list.

There is plenty of bad Aikido instruction out there, but don't dismiss the art entirely. There's plenty of combat-effectiveness in Aikido... it's just harder to learn and master than most styles. I studied Yoshinkai Aikido in college. I've also studied a number of other styles, including: Indonesian Penjat Silat, Western fencing, "mixed" martial arts (with groundfighting), and lesser amounts of Judo, Karate, and Tai Chi. The Yoshinkai style that I was taught was very focused on developing the fundamentals, and we worked techniques until we had a real understanding of the body mechanics involved.

When I moved to DC, I looked for a good Aikido school here to continue the kind of instruction that I'd been getting... but despite there being quite a few schools here, I still haven't found one that takes quite the same approach. Some of the Aikido I've seen here has been completely ridiculous. The techniques were done as a stylized dance, and the person on the receiving end was supposed to drop or fall without any technique actually having been applied. It's just made me appreciate the luck I had in finding really good instruction.

On the wider issue here of the overall effectiveness of Asian martial arts, I think you always have to take a practical approach in combat training. Most fighting arts have weak points... usefulness only at a particular range, for example. Boxing techniques can be very useful in a fight because they're direct, aggressive, relatively easy to learn, and they emphasize protecting your vital points... all good fighting concepts. However, to say that a boxer is always going to beat an Asian martial artist is obviously wrong. A pure boxer will always be vulnerable to low kicks, trapping, grappling, take-downs, or anything that takes him out of his comfort zone. A lot of Asian martial arts have similar blind-spots. It doesn't mean that boxing, or any particular martial art, is bad. It just means that you might get your ass kicked under certain circumstances if you don't become a well-rounded fighter.

I've found that I've picked up different things from each of the styles that I've studied. Distance, timing, and footwork from fencing. Economy of force, locks and throws, and 'blending' from Aikido. Lowkicks, groundfighting, and trapping from the mixed style. Etc. Some of your training sticks with you and becomes instinctual... the other stuff at least provides you with a reference to understand what other people might use against you.

[Strike For The South]

~:cheers: Guns> Martial arts~:cheers:

[JimBob]

Adrian, I admit in the west we get alot of nonsense teachers who spew a line of bull that sounds like Mr. Miyagi and people think they know what's going on. We're dumb.
But that does not mean anything if you learn a martial art as a martial art. A way to injure other people. Take karate, you write it off as an art that "destroys your fitness because it consists of short outbursts of activity, all in similar mold, and in between long periods of standing still in unnatural poses," fact of the matter is it's not.
-Is a half hour of near continous movement a 'short burst of activity'?
-Karate uses 5 primary stances:
Front Stance-Zenkutsu-dachi
Back Stance-Kokutsu-dachi
Horse Stance-Kiba-dachi
Cat Stance-Nekoashi-dachi-Drop the forward knee and hold it to the back knee to block the crotch
http://www.shotokanforeveryone.com/index_fr.htm
And 'fighting stance', it is based on front stance and is a natural fighting position. one foot forward, other back, spread out a little, bent knees.


Out on the street Eastern styles always lose out against good old Western boxing techniques.
How? My foot slamming into your knee will drive your knee backwards shattering it whether you know how to box or not. Because I fight diffrent does not make it anyless effective. Karate is based on knowledge of the human body. The muscles of the core, thigh, ass, abdominal, and lower back are far stronger than any others. So that is what you use to punch. I've seen guys fighting western go down hard against guys fighting eastern, and i've seen guys fighting eastern go down against guys fighting western. I've seen boxers beat karateka's faces in, and I've seen Tae Kwan Do practitioners shatter wrestler's bones.


Oh, and he also says this: ‘Have you ever wondered how some martial artists can punch through an eight-inch thickness of concrete slabs? I'm going to let you into a closely-guarded secret here, so listen carefully. All you have to do is -- are you paying attention? -- all you have to do is to practice punching hard objects for years and years and years. That's all there is to it. But don't tell anyone I told you, because it's a secret.’
That's a demonstration move, most people ignore it. It's like front kick, side kick, back kick, round house kick step forward to spinning back kick horse stance elbow strike back fist.

[Red Harvest]

You guys will probly notice, if you watch any mixed martial arts competitions such as UFC, that traditional western boxing makes up quite a small minority of the range of techniques used by the fighters. 90 percent of these fights will end up on the ground which is where systems such as jujitsu come into thier own and dominate the field.

Also, by my judgement the kicks and knee strikes uitilised in muay thai are just as practical as any western boxing techniques, eccpecially for those of light to medium bodyweight. If a fighter goes into one of these cages solely as a boxer, and start bobbing and ducking around like they in the WBA, you can expect he'll get knocked out by a swift shin kick to the face before long.

Any successfull MMA fighter will have a large range of techiniques at his disposal, and my bets are that three quarters of these techniques will come from adapted and developed systems of old eastern martial arts.
Indeed, in real life fights I had when I was younger (outside the ring) about half of them turned to wrestling at some point. While I was always the smaller/younger in them, I could always win in the grappling because I had stronger legs and was used to wrestling my dad, who was much larger and was in good shape. I might not be able to take them out on the ground, but I could always get free.

Being able to defend yourself in multiple ways is critical to winning real fights. That's why I was checking out Muay-Thai. I like their style and started practicing the basic moves on my own heavy/water bag. Combine it with a good jab and proper boxing skills, plus wrestling skills, and you've got a well rounded fighter, dangerous at any range with all limbs.

The problem with western boxing by itself is that you are not allowed to use all weapons, just the most effective ones.

[bmolsson]

That kind of 'mumbo jumbo' is mainly aimed at achieving one thing. Calmness. A fighter who can keep thinking in the middle of a fight has a big advantage over an opponent who just wildly throws punches.


I saw a fight once with a 75kg guy high on PCP went absolutely nuts and kicked the shit out of 3 door guards and 2 police officers before they shot him. They where are very calm, specially after they bite the dust.
Most fights are about raw beast and being able to take damage....... ~;)

[bmolsson]

The two pieces of self-defense advice are universal and well-known,


Hesitation will make you loose. Any "real" fighter, west or east, will never hesitate. A normal person will always hesitate before he hurt somebody, therefore he will loose in almost all scenery, regardless his training or physical condition.

[Xiahou]

~:rolleyes: Nice try, AdrianII. A big GAH for you on this one. Responding to this in any detail would be like an expert historian responding to the notion that the Holocaust didn't happen. It seems to me that you've made a grand generalization, implicitly equating the likes of this stretched charlatan with great men like Ueshiba Morihei and Bruce Lee, baiting folks here and hoping for an entertaining free-for-all. I find your responses particularly amusing in light of our most recent God thread. :bow:

Of course, maybe that's why so few are actually taking it seriously as well.. :shrug:

[Meneldil]

Adrian, I admit in the west we get alot of nonsense teachers who spew a line of bull that sounds like Mr. Miyagi and people think they know what's going on. We're dumb.
But that does not mean anything if you learn a martial art as a martial art. A way to injure other people.


Agreed, most the teachers are 25 - 30 year old dumbasses who have no clue about what they're doing and try to create a remake of Karate Kids with their students.

[Geoffrey S]

There are bad teachers, and susceptible students willing to put up with the nonsense they spout out. Although they are in a majority, can't it be argued they're not truly an accurate portrayal of the sports they represent?

The best thing martial arts, or most fighting sports for that matter, can teach is to keep a level head whilst fighting, to actually be capable of thinking about what you're doing and what your next move will be.

[R'as al Ghul]

Here's one of those harmless mumbo-jumbo moves:

https://img464.imageshack.us/img464/280/monkeystealsthepeach5ju.jpg

Ouch! ~D

[Ser Clegane]

"Monkey Steals the Peach"??

Quite a poetic way to describe that carnage ~:eek:

[Adrian II]

Adrian, I admit in the west we get alot of nonsense teachers who spew a line of bull that sounds like Mr. Miyagi and people think they know what's going on. We're dumb.On the contrary, the East is replete with bogus teachers. They started it.

Look at the Chinese national obsession with qigong (http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html) and related crap philosophies. They are a genuine mafia and do great harm to their nation.

The Japanese founder of aikido Morihei Ueshiba claimed supernatural feats. He is supposed to have done a reverse Wilhelm Tell by dodging the bullets of a firing squad in pre-war Japan. They say he teleported himself to the second floor of his Honourable Dojo. And just as in qigong he claimed aikido gave him the power to throw back atackers without touching them. Hey, it's better than pulling trucks with your pecker, but he was still a charlatan.

Nearly all the Eastern martial arts schools claim supernatural abilities, none of which have ever been proven. In fact those claims are probably why they appeal to gullible audiences in the West in the first place. Western audiences have this deep sense of personal and metaphysical ineptitute, coupled with the notion that people from Asia are more sophisticated, wiser and healthier than we are. Well, many of them are damn smart and they study Western-style 'hard' sciences in which they will soon outcompete us. So why do we copy and admire some of their worst frauds and feudal traditions?

Bullshido if you ask me. ~:rolleyes:

[Adrian II]

"Monkey Steals the Peach"??

Quite a poetic way to describe that carnage ~:eek:Carnage? He is proposing to the other guy! ~D

[Adrian II]

Inner peace is somewhat different from that (at least according to me). I'll leave you guessing.Sounds like quackery to me.

[R'as al Ghul]

Carnage? He is proposing to the other guy! ~D

Yes, he's proposing massive blood loss to him....~D

[Louis VI the Fat]

And just as in qigong he claimed aikido gave him the power to throw back atackers without touching them.
You're talking out of your arse again! With my own eyes, I've seen people throw back attackers without touching them by using methods that qui gon taught them....~:eek:

What's next Adrian - you claiming that there is no such thing as 'the force'? That it's all mere special effects with a touch of the supernatural!? :furious3:


http://www.eyeonstarwars.com/episode1/picture/e288.jpg

[Adrian II]

What's next Adrian - you claiming that there is no such thing as 'the force'? That it's all mere special effects with a touch of the supernatural!? :furious3:Stop tickling me, Louis! ~:confused:

Oh sorry, I didn't realise you were touching my 'energy spots' in rapid succession... ~:handball:

[doc_bean]

I saw a fight once with a 75kg guy high on PCP went absolutely nuts and kicked the shit out of 3 door guards and 2 police officers before they shot him. They where are very calm, specially after they bite the dust.
Most fights are about raw beast and being able to take damage....... ~;)

Yep, I was mainly talking about fights were people simply wanted to hurt you whilst minimizing the damage done to themselves. Of course, in a last ditch effort against a better opponent, you could just go MAD (mutual assured destruction). There's very little defense against an opponent who doesn't care how badly he gets hurt.

I actually managed to avoid a fight once against a bigger and (obvious to me) stronger opponent, most likely in better shape, by calling him a coward and telling him we should step outside. He probably figured I was insane enough to do quite a bit of damage. If only he had known...~:joker:

[Togakure]

... The Japanese founder of aikido Morihei Ueshiba claimed supernatural feats. He is supposed to have done a reverse Wilhelm Tell by dodging the bullets of a firing squad in pre-war Japan. They say he teleported himself to the second floor of his Honourable Dojo. And just as in qigong he claimed aikido gave him the power to throw back atackers without touching them. Hey, it's better than pulling trucks with your pecker, but he was still a charlatan. ...
O'Sensei never made these claims. Those who observed what he did, did, and as time and talk (or in the greater sense of the word--media--of which you are so intimately familiar) tends to do, actual facts have been distorted into ridiculous tales. And here we have a bored gaijin skeptic, wasting his time starting paltry arguments on an obscure internet forum, shaking his big fish mind in a little fish pond, drinking in the detritus and forming his profound opinion upon it ... ~:rolleyes:.

Your "argument" is exceptionally humorous. It's quite apparent that you know virtually nothing about what you've started here (how many links did you cruise before posting this ... stuff?), and yet you judge very critically, men who are respected and revered by accomplished martialists from all over the world--martialists who have spent lifetimes studying and practicing what these "charlatans" taught, and who are infinitely more qualifed to judge than you. Inspired by indignation over a thread about Sensei super-penis, you embark on a noble quest for knowledge, and over a few long and arduous hours, fill your roiling belly with these shining pearls of Internet wisdom, and then puke them all over the Backroom in this thread. You are a golden example of the type who claims to "know" so much; your "knowledge" has closed your mind to further learning. Trying to explain under such circumstances is an utter waste of energy--let the like rot in their own ignorance and snobbery, until perhaps life and time and circumstances help them to find their own way out of their dark, virtual playpens.

If you really want to know how effective a martial art is, go find a dojo where the instructor is Asian and over 60 years old. Share your opinion with him, and challenge him to a match. It is most likely that you will be turned down unless you are able to convince him of your sincerity to learn from the experience. But there is no better way to learn than to experience directly, and perhaps you will get a clue when someone half again your age (and likely, half your size and weight), effortlessly sets you on your ass despite anything you do to try and overcome him (edit: or her--one of my most amazing sensei was a woman). That's what convinced me in the end--not fanciful tales in books or on the internet, or swapped between testosterone-giddy tough guys in the locker room.

"Spoken" with a shaking head, sardonic smile, and ~:rolleyes: .

[Soulforged]

O'Sensei never made these claims. Those who observed what he did, did, and as time and talk (or in the greater sense of the word--media--of which you are so intimately familiar) tends to do, actual facts have been distorted into ridiculous tales. And here we have a bored gaijin skeptic, wasting his time starting paltry arguments on an obscure internet forum, shaking his big fish mind in a little fish pond, drinking in the detritus and forming his profound opinion upon it ... Gaijin? Wait you are japanese? Oh that explains a lot of things...~:rolleyes:. Of course don't take me serious I'm just another gaijin, and one who has never been in Nipon.
The rest is naught...Really did you read what was posted, morale was defended over and over, and taking the O'Sensei part out you can get this idea only martial arts have more of art than of martial, that was the whole point. The better fighter is decided from man to man, there are no generalizations.

[Togakure]

Gaijin? Wait you are japanese? Oh that explains a lot of things...~:rolleyes:.
No. In the eyes of the Japanese I am worse than a gaijin--I am happa, half Japanese and half American, born in Japan, raised and living in America. :bow:


Of course don't take me serious I'm just another gaijin, and one who has never been in Nipon. ...
Don't worry, I don't, and I won't ~;). You've provided enough patterned data here in the Backroom for me to surmise your general nature. :bow:

Edit: grammar correction. Lots of these today. Argh.

[A.Saturnus]

The only place where this nonsense belongs is in a fighting ring where every participant is bound by the same rules. Out on the street Eastern styles always lose out against good old Western boxing techniques. If anything, Eastern martial arts instructors make unnecessary victims because they give their students a false sense of confidence.

Once upon a time, a great master visited a big dojo in one of the major cities. He watched the students for a while. After some time, one student approached him and asked him "so, you´re supposed to be a great master, ha?"
He answered "yes, some call me master".
The student went on: "so, what can you do?"
"What do you mean?"
The student boasted "well, my sensei can beat up anyone he wants to. I bet he could beat you up."
The master shrugged and said "that means nothing to me. To me, it´s a miracle that I drink when I´m thirsty and that I eat when I´m hungry."

The Art of the Open Hand.


Nearly all the Eastern martial arts schools claim supernatural abilities, none of which have ever been proven. In fact those claims are probably why they appeal to gullible audiences in the West in the first place. Western audiences have this deep sense of personal and metaphysical ineptitute, coupled with the notion that people from Asia are more sophisticated, wiser and healthier than we are. Well, many of them are damn smart and they study Western-style 'hard' sciences in which they will soon outcompete us. So why do we copy and admire some of their worst frauds and feudal traditions?

Bullshido if you ask me.

Adrian, I have a good deal of respect for you and I hope you´re just provocational here. I assume you wanted a response from martial arts adepts here and I´m disapponted that Togakure reacted the way you hoped he would. Aikido should teach him not to let himself be provoced.
I agree with you more often than not, but here, you´re far off. Yes, there are many charlatans and freaks. I don´t believe that O-sensei could push people around with his ki. I do believe that ki exists but it´s nothing supernatural. It is simply a very high control of your body.
I did judo for several years and have begun with aikido last year. I´ve met a number of European instructors and dan-grades. In our dojo we have a number of really good aikido dan-grades. They can execute the forms with high skill. But the difference to Matsumoto sensei is still fundamental. Matsumoto sensei doesn´t move like a martial arts fighter, he moves like an ordinary man going down the street but his movements are sooo powerful. He´s just a small man and most of his students are stronger than him, but I have no doubt that he could break my arm with ease. To demonstrate nikkyo, he once but my wrist against his shoulder and shoved me through the dojo. I could do nothing, really, he could have defeated me with only his shoulder!
Do you think that I´m gullible? That I have a "deep sense of personal and metaphysical ineptitute"? You surely have read a lot pro and contra martial arts, but have you experienced it yourself? At least, you will let me judge from my own experiences, no? I´m glad that I started with aikido (and stopped with judo), and I´m convinced that I´ve learned a lot. Does that mean now that I can beat up who I want to? Hell, no. If that´s what you´re looking for, by all means, don´t start with aikido. I know people who do wing tsun and that really seems to give you the upper hand in a fight. But then, the suggestion what to bring to a gun fight should be clear.

Martial arts are a sport and, with enough experience an option to help you defend yourself. They do not offer any magical abilities nor can they bring you inner peace on their own. If anything, they can help you relax, and that´s always a good thing ~:)

[A.Saturnus]

I think that you don't understand the point. "Inner peace" and "inner balance" seem to be ad hoc concepts, not only that, but they're vague, wich means not defined well, so you can't know for certain what they mean. It's much like the concept of "ki" wich is also vague and could refer to a lot of things, or could take so many forms that it loses consistency. For instance you lose the object because it's no delimited.

Unfortunately, inner peace is by nature vague and elusive, that´s why you can´t define it very well. If you find it a silly concept, there´s no problem. If you think you don´t need inner peace, then you probably don´t need it. I guess, someone who has inner peace naturally will also find it silly and the talk about it pointless. I find that trying to achieve inner peace helps me. It makes me a better person in my own view and most of the time makes me unable to give an answer in the common "what does irritate you"-threads we see once in a while.

[Adrian II]

Really did you read what was posted, morale was defended over and over, and taking the O'Sensei part out you can get this idea only martial arts have more of art than of martial, that was the whole point. The better fighter is decided from man to man, there are no generalizations.Well said, that wraps it up. :bow:
Martial arts are a sport and, with enough experience an option to help you defend yourself. They do not offer any magical abilities nor can they bring you inner peace on their own. If anything, they can help you relax, and that´s always a good thing ~:)We are in complete agreement. My own 'best practice' experience was with yoga exercises. Very relaxing and stimulating at the same time. Don't know if it brought my chakras in line and I don't care either.

Satori can wait. ~;)

[A.Saturnus]

We are in complete agreement. My own 'best practice' experience was with yoga exercises. Very relaxing and stimulating at the same time. Don't know if it brought my chakras in line and I don't care either.

Strange enough, yoga exercises made me really nervous.

[Adrian II]

Strange enough, yoga exercises made me really nervous.Heh ~D

[ah_dut]

I wouldn't say martial arts are useless...I do wing chun and it has really helped my straight line punching speed and reflexes. I also feel much calmer and more ''at peace'' It is virtually impossible to perform wing chun in a tense state. It relies on relaxation and body mechanics. Some of it can be somewhat silly but that's that, as Bruce Lee said 'take what is useful dunmo what isn't''

At the end of the day you do just that don't you? As I attend an all boys school violence isn;t exactly rare and it's a useful thing to have. My current instructor is a 5' dead 90lb woman who seems to be able to destroy me with complete and utter ease if she wnted to without difficulty because she understand how to use her body better then I know mine. The leader of my federation of wing chun seems to be able to do very strange things at the demos, it's almost odd to see how he just simply flows around people. And yes, I have expirienced it. he's simply at a level that's that much higher then mine

[Just A Girl]

Im prety shure that the shaolin monks beat the crap out of a bunch of invaders with nothing more than brooms Many years ago,

id bother you with long boring facts and dates,
But im lazy

Saw it on discovery chanel or sumthing,
so mabye you could go look there

[Meneldil]

Never heard you were supposed to gain new superpowers by practising some eastern martial art ~:rolleyes:

People learn martial arts mostly because it looks cool, and is (once again, that's only from a few fights I saw) quite useful to defend yourself when you're in a bad situation.
I'll likely begun some kind of martial stuff (likely Kobudo) next year, and I'm in no way hoping to be able to teleport from place A to place B, or to knock off a guy just with my (already quite powerful) mind. Fact is, fighting in Kimono, and possibly with a katana, is much cooler than fighting with pink pants. I also think a judoka can beat a wrestler or a boxer any day, but that's just my (biased) opinion.

[Togakure]

... I´m disapponted that Togakure reacted the way you hoped he would. Aikido should teach him not to let himself be provoced. ...

Of course you are right, A.Saturnus, but being "proper" all the time can be so damn boring! ~;p And I haven't really engaged him in the manner that he'd hoped. He wanted me to provide him with "concrete" information, which he could then disparage and dissect, point-by-point.

Others have responded with the kind of information he wanted, and his sycophants have chimed in with the moral support he craves. He has, once again achieved his objective of "advancing" his views while subtlely, knowingly attacking and putting down those of others here. I don't respect him. I don't like him. He knows this--I'm sure the feeling is mutual--despite his polite posturing and pinky-wags from time to time. It is good that he and I are separated by this vast internet void. If it were otherwise, then you would truly have good reason to bemoan my unwillingness to remain unprovoked.

As I stated already, I suck as an aikidoka. Being on my fourth day of total nicotine deprivation doesn't help in this case, either.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

On a semi-related note:

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/magazine_112305.article.jpg

[Adrian II]

Being on my fourth day of total nicotine deprivation doesn't help in this case, either.Actually I do like you, we do have musical tastes in common and a lot of other things. For instance... wait, let me light up a cigarette first...

Hey! What th..? Urgh!..

*drops dead from Togakure Ojonin's qi attack*

[Togakure]

You are brutal. At least you don't have a webcam--one of my clan m8s just lit one up to taunt me ... I will take great pleasure in annihilating his army in our next game. ~:cheers:

[Adrian II]

You are brutal. At least you don't have a webcam--one of my clan m8s just lit one up to taunt me ... I will take great pleasure in annihilating his army in our next game. ~:cheers:I am sure you will! :charge:

[Dhepee]

It takes two things to win a fight:

1) Being able to take a hit
2) Having the willingness and ability to hit someone without hesitation

If you get in a fight unless you're in the top 10% you are probably going to get hit. If you can't take the hit then you're pretty much done for.

If you hit someone the wrong way at the very least you won't hurt them at all and at worst you can break your hand or even your foot, depending on your shoe.

Even if you have the ability to land a punch/kick you need to be willing to put the hurt on your fellow man, which not all of us have.

Finally, you must be able to do this quickly. In most fights you don't have time to make sure that your fist is properly curled - so that you don't jam or break a finger - or to practice landing a kick/punch. Also you don't have the time to think about how you feel about laying another dude out, the guy debating pacifism in his head usually loses the fight.

To the extent that the martial arts teach you to take a hit, land a hit, develop a willingness to fight back, and to process this all quickly and under pressure, yeah the're effective.

If you want to learn to levitate or all that nonsense, great, but make sure that the "dojo" has a money back guarantee so that you aren't broke when your butt won't hover.

[Togakure]

"Without hesitation" has been mentioned a couple of times now. This is indeed a notable point in many "martial arts." For those who are interested in what a 16th century Japanese Buddhist monk had to say about the "stopping mind," read the first section in Takuan Soho's book, which I mentioned earlier in this thread: Fudochishinmyoroku, or "The Mysterious Record of Immovable Wisdom." This "letter" was sent by Takuan to Yagyu Munenori, a noted sword master of the time. Prepare yourself for zen talk--I read it and read it and read it and read it--I still feel that I'm barely beginning to understand it. (I'll do it for you AdrianII: ~:rolleyes: )

This book also speaks about martial techniques versus a "Way of life," though it may not be apparent to a casual quick-reader.

[Adrian II]

Prepare yourself for zen talk--I read it and read it and read it and read it--I still feel that I'm barely beginning to understand it. (I'll do it for you AdrianII: ~:rolleyes: )Look, at least we agree that ninety percent of what passes for Eastern wisdom is just Snah Fu and Okidoki. The other ten percent, I'm all for it. I ain't no Kung Fool. But if I had started a thread that carefully weighed all the pros and cons of every damn MA around, everybody including you would have fallen asleep. Now I'll be happy to hear from you once you get your gong around Takuan.
:bow:

In the mean time, en garde! :duel:

[Togakure]

*database hiccup, apparently - duplicate posting, see next*

[Togakure]

In my damned unhumble opinion: It is shameless western commercialism/opportunism that was primarily responsible for the proliferation of charlatans and bogus schools, styles, and techniques, etc. The East has long since jumped on this bandwagon too, and now it is very difficult to distinguish between Merchants and Artisans in the "martial arts" world. It is particularly aggravating to me that legitimate and extremely respect-worthy masters and institutions are lumped together with these--burakumin. Hence, this thread annoyed me.

[master of the puppets]

In my damned unhumble opinion: It is shameless western commercialism/opportunism that was primarily responsible for the proliferation of charlatans and bogus schools, styles, and techniques, etc. The East has long since jumped on this bandwagon too, and now it is very difficult to distinguish between Merchants and Artisans in the "martial arts" world. It is particularly aggravating to me that legitimate and extremely respect-worthy masters and institutions are lumped together with these--burakumin. Hence, this thread annoyed me.

yes its true, especially if your talking about karate, there are like 10 in my area, but i take tae-kwon-do which is a much more defined and respectful art compared to karate which seems as if anyone can learn it easily. in my school there is a league of schools and i'm not even aloud to get my next belt until i am tested before the masters of every school (the one from my school was the state champion in louisiana and new jersey, and he is AMAZING) and if i'm not good enough io do not progress.

anyway it seems almost commercial how karate is treated but i happily report that tae-kwon-do in my area is yet untainted rigid and physicly brutal (and effective, i've had 2 fights to prove it~D)-(oh and obviosly my master says i need better self control, and i've had 2 fights to prove it~:joker:)

[Soulforged]

Unfortunately, inner peace is by nature vague and elusive, that´s why you can´t define it very well. If you find it a silly concept, there´s no problem. If you think you don´t need inner peace, then you probably don´t need it. I guess, someone who has inner peace naturally will also find it silly and the talk about it pointless. I find that trying to achieve inner peace helps me. It makes me a better person in my own view and most of the time makes me unable to give an answer in the common "what does irritate you"-threads we see once in a while.
I've found my inner peace, that's why I hear Blind Guardian.:guitarist:

[Slyspy]

In my damned unhumble opinion: It is shameless western commercialism/opportunism that was primarily responsible for the proliferation of charlatans and bogus schools, styles, and techniques, etc. The East has long since jumped on this bandwagon too, and now it is very difficult to distinguish between Merchants and Artisans in the "martial arts" world. It is particularly aggravating to me that legitimate and extremely respect-worthy masters and institutions are lumped together with these--burakumin. Hence, this thread annoyed me.

Thats a shame because your replies have done your stance (beliefs maybe?) no justice at all. Maybe they have been a little tongue in cheek but they have come across in the agressive, confrontational style that currently blights the Backroom. I for one regard many martial arts styles themselves to be too highly refined and stylistic as taught to be that useful outside of exhibition fighting. More art than martial, if you like, so that only the most exceptional students can carry much out of the classroom. However I also believe that they can teach discipline, situational awareness, how to stay calm under pressure and enhance self-confidence. All these things are useful in themselves. Any constructive input from yourself would be welcome by myself and any others reading this thread who are uncertain about the role and effectiveness of martial arts in modern society. Ridcule does not help.

[bmolsson]

Inner peace ?? Haven't you guy's seen the commercials.... Coca Cola is it !! ~;)

[Togakure]

Thats a shame because your replies have done your stance (beliefs maybe?) no justice at all. Maybe they have been a little tongue in cheek but they have come across in the agressive, confrontational style that currently blights the Backroom. I for one regard many martial arts styles themselves to be too highly refined and stylistic as taught to be that useful outside of exhibition fighting. More art than martial, if you like, so that only the most exceptional students can carry much out of the classroom. However I also believe that they can teach discipline, situational awareness, how to stay calm under pressure and enhance self-confidence. All these things are useful in themselves. Any constructive input from yourself would be welcome by myself and any others reading this thread who are uncertain about the role and effectiveness of martial arts in modern society. Ridcule does not help.
My stance/beliefs? I wasn't aware that I'd put any forward to any great degree. Yes, I do tend to do the tongue-in-cheek thing a lot. Indeed, some of the things I've said here were quite aggressive and confrontational--intentionally so. I tend to agree with you on the "blights" comment, but I've chosen to take a more "aggressive" posture in this thread--which is my prerogative.

[Sigh] Perhaps some here think my conduct in this thread is not consistent with the demeanor they've come to expect from me. They are quite right--and I have acted so with deliberation. I think expectations like this are impractical. I'm sorry if I no longer fit in the mold they've created for me based on their perceptions of old, but it would be inaccurate of them to think they can know me to any great degree based on what they read here--even if they are adept at studying data patterns and take the time to analyze mine. Why do they care? And why should I care that they are ... disappointed? I think there are some who believe that their massed opinions should shame me and others into "behaving" in a manner that they think is "proper." I think this is laughable, and ludicrous, and will leave it at that.

I have nothing to offer on the subject at hand that isn't better gained elsewhere. These things are best learned by doing rather than by talking anyway.

Please note that I am not offended by what you've said. I can understand your point of view. No worries, I will most likely depart the Backroom for an extended period again. It's not adding any value, nor am I.

[Slyspy]

My stance/beliefs? I wasn't aware that I'd put any forward to any great degree. Yes, I do tend to do the tongue-in-cheek thing a lot. Indeed, some of the things I've said here were quite aggressive and confrontational--intentionally so. I tend to agree with you on the "blights" comment, but I've chosen to take a more "aggressive" posture in this thread--which is my prerogative.

[Sigh] Perhaps some here think my conduct in this thread is not consistent with the demeanor they've come to expect from me. They are quite right--and I have acted so with deliberation. I think expectations like this are impractical. I'm sorry if I no longer fit in the mold they've created for me based on their perceptions of old, but it would be inaccurate of them to think they can know me to any great degree based on what they read here--even if they are adept at studying data patterns and take the time to analyze mine. Why do they care? And why should I care that they are ... disappointed? I think there are some who believe that their massed opinions should shame me and others into "behaving" in a manner that they think is "proper." I think this is laughable, and ludicrous, and will leave it at that.

I have nothing to offer on the subject at hand that isn't better gained elsewhere. These things are best learned by doing rather than by talking anyway.

Please note that I am not offended by what you've said. I can understand your point of view. No worries, I will most likely depart the Backroom for an extended period again. It's not adding any value, nor am I.

Sounds like a forum troll's charter lol! ~:joker:

[Papewaio]

Physics... just start talking about it and they will fall asleep.

====

Rugby teaches this:

If someone hits you hit them back as hard as you can.


Because you only get one chance before the ref stops you. :bow:

[Just A Girl]

I love Rugby,. (Union)

And I dunno about that u only get to hit him 1ce before the ref stops you,
Did you see Englands game v samoa earlier yesterday :P

And The 1st Win Us welsh have had against those blasted auzzies since 87.
Ahh yes,
I love Rugby. (Union)

[Adrian II]

Rugby teaches this:

If someone hits you hit them back as hard as you can.

Because you only get one chance before the ref stops you. :bow:Yay! Spoken like a true Ozzie.

BTW You guys gave everyone a run for their money against Wales, jeesus, I haven't seen a cliff-hanger like that for quite a while. Respect!

[Lazul]

blhe, we all know the true way to beat the crap out of someone is to totaly loose it and go berserk... as my ancesters appearantly did according to some historians hehe...

Now, how does a fistfighting kung-fu'ian block a Bastard Sword eh!? :charge:

... thats right, they dont! haha

[Spetulhu]

The desire to really hurt people is essential, all the rest is just a bonus.

[Togakure]

Sounds like a forum troll's charter lol! ~:joker:
[scratches head, grumbles, sniffs finger, roars, shakes bludgeon menacingly]
Yes, I am the definitive forum troll around here. Bye now. Have fun.

[Meneldil]

Now, how does a fistfighting kung-fu'ian block a Bastard Sword eh!? :charge:

... thats right, they dont! haha

Simple. They either stop it with their little finger (or even better with their mind), or they simply dodge it by teleporting themselves right behind you (then they can flip out and chop your head off with a single hand).

[Geoffrey S]

My stance/beliefs? I wasn't aware that I'd put any forward to any great degree. Yes, I do tend to do the tongue-in-cheek thing a lot. Indeed, some of the things I've said here were quite aggressive and confrontational--intentionally so. I tend to agree with you on the "blights" comment, but I've chosen to take a more "aggressive" posture in this thread--which is my prerogative.
Fair enough. You responded in the original message's tone, though you didn't achieve much by doing so. To be honest it had quite the adverse effect.

[Aurelian]

Now, how does a fistfighting kung-fu'ian block a Bastard Sword eh!?

... thats right, they dont! haha

You're right, they don't block it, they disarm the person using the Bastard Sword. ~;)

Actually, much of Aikido is based off of sword techniques. We used to train with wooden swords (bokken) every class. Staff and dagger is incorporated into the training at higher ranks. A lot of the armed and unarmed techniques are basically the same, as far as body movement and positioning goes. It makes sense when you consider that many of the techniques were originally developed for use by (possibly disarmed) samurai on the battlefield. They work.


blhe, we all know the true way to beat the crap out of someone is to totaly loose it and go berserk...

The desire to really hurt people is essential, all the rest is just a bonus...

That's one common tactic, and it usually works pretty well. If you can intimidate your opponent just through aggression, he'll probably fold right away. If you're up against a calm focused counter-puncher who doesn't get intimidated easily, then you'll probably have to scale it back.


Yay! Spoken like a true Ozzie.

"Sharon!"


Ah_dut mentioned above that he does Wing Chun. That's a good martial art. A number of my friends used to study a variant of that (Wing Chun Do) around the University of Michigan. A couple of them went on to become instructors themselves, and it was always interesting to compare notes with them.

In Wing Chun Do, they basically go right through the opponent. They rely on quick short-range punches and kicks, and trapping combinations to tangle up their opponent's arms so they can't defend themselves. They practice what they call the "one inch punch" because you don't need a big arm motion to pull it off. It's short and snappy, and you use your body weight to pull it off. There's no push to the punch... you snap it so that the energy is all delivered as shock. It's very powerful. They like to demonstrate it by having you hold a phonebook in front of your chest to absorb most of the blow. It's still quite a shock to the system.

However, as mentioned earlier, every system has its weak spots. One of my friends, a 6'7 Wing Chun Do instructor, had to take up jujitsu because, as he explained it, Wing Chun only gave him two settings: seriously injure someone, or do nothing. He needed locks and holds as intermediate levels of force he could use (he worked as a bouncer for a while). Also, Wing Chun is short-ranged and aimed straight ahead. That gives a few tactical openings that can be exploited.

[Togakure]

Fair enough. You responded in the original message's tone, though you didn't achieve much by doing so. To be honest it had quite the adverse effect.
I'll respond to you before I hit the road, Geoffrey S: you're right--but I wasn't trying to "achieve" anything. Does it seem like I was? "Adverse effect" ... meaning people believe all the more that Eastern martial arts are predominantly crap? *Shrugs.* People think what they want to think. It has little effect on Reality. Or do you mean that people have lost respect for me? *shrugs again.* the same applies. This doesn't concern me.

I chose to play in this thread, as Adrian did, but in a different manner. He was provocatively fishing for information. I didn't provide anything "useful" to speak of, because that's precisely what he (and other thread predators) wanted. Instead, I expelled some unsubstantial, trollish steam (which felt great, and thus served it's purpose). I've had the pleasure of observing the reactions of several who posted here that I've not taken notice of before. The nature of their reactions suggests things about the way they think, which I find entertaining.

***

Edit: The book I mentioned earlier addresses similar points that Aurelian makes, above, regarding an unarmed person countering a sword- (or otherwise) armed attacker. Perhaps some will find this interesting:

Takuan Soho, in a letter to Yagyu Munenori:

"Although you see the sword that moves to strike you, if your mind is not detained by it and you meet the rhythm of the advancing sword; if you do not think of striking your opponent and no thoughts or judgments remain; if in the instant you see the swinging sword your mind is not the least bit detained and you move straight in and wrench the sword away from him; the sword that was going to cut you down will become your own, and, contrarily, will be the sword that cuts down your opponent.

In Zen, this is called "Grabbing the spear and, contrariwise, piercing the man who has come to pierce you." The spear is a weapon. The heart of this is that the sword you wrest from your adversary becomes the sword that cuts him down. This is what you, in your style, call "No-Sword."

***

The following is my favorite passage in the first letter, and I think it can be applied to Adrian's seeming attitude about MA, inspired by his indignation over Sensei Super-PeePee:

"When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye, without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves are not there."

Kk, it's past time for me to skeedaddle and leave ye ol' Backroom to y'all. Have fun.

[Papewaio]

I love Rugby,. (Union)

And I dunno about that u only get to hit him 1ce before the ref stops you,
Did you see Englands game v samoa earlier yesterday :P

And The 1st Win Us welsh have had against those blasted auzzies since 87.
Ahh yes,
I love Rugby. (Union)

Well I was born in Fiji, my mum is Welsh and my dad is a Kiwi.

I was surprised on the weekend when I was channel surfing and found the All Blacks playing the Aussies... and then hang on that is the Welsh in NZ colours... and I thought all Welshmen secretly hate the All Blacks ~;) ~:cheers: ... finally had to come around to the correct form of Hero worship. :bow:


Yay! Spoken like a true Ozzie.

BTW You guys gave everyone a run for their money against Wales, jeesus, I haven't seen a cliff-hanger like that for quite a while. Respect!

Kia Ora I'm a West Islander. :bow: But the Aussies are doing very well in a wide range of sports.

[Adrian II]

Kia Ora I'm a West Islander. :bow: Sorry bout that, m8. Of course the All Blacks need no praise, they are above that. Here is to the meanest squad in world sports. Kapa o Pango, au-e, hi!
~:cheers:

P.S. Wales did well against Australia. I particularly liked Matthews. However, Tuqiri was the real man of the match for me.

http://www.rugby.com.au/verve/_resources/WalesLotebreak.jpg

[Adrian II]

Actually, much of Aikido is based off of sword techniques.Great. More power to sword techniques. As long as we do not have to swallow O'Sensei's boisterous bullshit about his advocacy of world peace or his own extraordinary faculties.

Until well into the 1940's Morihei Ueshiba, founder of aikido (and also known as O'Sensei), consorted with the chiefs of Japanese military intelligence. He gave demonstrations of his 'art' in celebration of the Japanese occupation of Manchuria. He supported a neo-shintoist cult that advocated military dictatorship and Japanese expansion to 'liberate' the peoples of Asia, etcetera etcetera. He even trained the despicable Japanes military police, the Kempei, who guarded most of the death camps in the Pacific.

In the early 1920's, when Ueshiba first opened a dojo in Tokyo, his patrons were the commanders of the Japanese Combined Fleet, in particular Admiral Isamu Takeshita. They sponsored him and enabled him to set up affiliate dojos, thus helping Ueshiba to establish his aiki budo throughout Japan and in Japanese occupied Manchuria and Korea. Thanks to his military contacts Ueshiba got a job as instructor at Toyama Army School. In 1938 he landed a similar job at the new military intelligence school in Nakano where, in preparation of the Great Asian Offensive, he trained spies for behind-the-lines duty. But they soon found his jiu jitsu too difficult and exchanged him for a karate teacher who taught them simpler kicks.

Ueshiba fell out with the military just in time, i.e. when the war in the Pacific turned sour. That is when O’Sensei suddenly discovered that budo really means ‘Way of Peace’ instead of ‘Way of the Warrior’. After the war he enriched the world with nutty writings about inner and external peace, all to be acquired through his little dojo’s.

Oh, and of course he made all the usual claims about his extraordinary capabilities. Here we have O'Sensei and his son Kisshumaro talking about them in a 1957 Japanese book on aikido:


Q: Were there any episodes while you were at the Toyama School?

O'Sensei: Strength contests?...One incident took place, I believe, before the episode with the military police. Several captains who were instructors at the Toyama School invited me to test my strength against theirs. They all prided themselves in their abilities, saying things like: "I was able to lift such-and-such a weight," or "I broke a log so many inches in diameter". I explained to them, "I don't have strength like yours, but I can fell people like you with my little finger alone. I feel sorry for you if I throw you, so let's do this instead." I extended my right arm and rested the tip of my index finger on the end of a desk and invited them to lay across my arm on their stomachs. One, two, then three officers by themselves over my arm, and by that time everyone became wide-eyed. I continued until six men lay over my arm and then asked the officer standing near me for a glass of water. As I was drinking the water with my left hand everyone was quiet and exchanging glances.

Q: Aside from Aikido, you must have tremendous physical strength.

O'Sensei: Not really.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba: Of course he possesses strength, but it should be described as the power of Ki, rather than physical strength. Some time ago, when we went to a new settlement in the country, we saw seven or eight laborers trying in vain to lift a huge tree stump. My father stood looking at it for a while and then asked them to step aside so he could try it. He lifted the stump easily and promptly carried it away. It is totally inconceivable to do such a thing with mere physical strength. Also there was an incident involving a certain Mihamahiro.

Q: Was he the same Mihamahiro of Takasago Beya Sumo Wrestling Association?

O'Sensei: Yes. He was from Kishu Province. When I was staying at Shingu in Wakayama, Mihamahiro was doing well in the Sumo ranks. He had tremendous strength and could lift three rods which weighed several hundred pounds. When I learned Mihamahiro was staying in town, I invited him to come over. While we were talking Mihamahiro said, "I've also heard that you, Sensei, possess great strength. Why don't we test our strength?" "All right. Fine. I can pin you with my index finger alone," I answered. Then I let him push me while I was seated. This fellow capable of lifting huge weights huffed and puffed but could not push me over. After that, I redirected his power away from me and he went flying by. As he fell I pinned him with my index finger, and he remained totally immobilized. It was like an adult pinning a baby. Then I suggested that he try again and let him push against my forehead. However, he couldn't move me at all. Then I extended my legs forward, and, balancing myself, I lifted my legs off the floor and had him push me. Still he could not move me. He was surprised and began to study Aikido.

Q: When you say you pin a person with one finger, do you push on a vital point?

O'Sensei: I draw a circle around him. His power is contained inside that circle. No matter how strong a man he may be, he cannot extend his power outside of that circle. He becomes powerless. Thus, if you pin your opponent while you are outside of his circle, you can hold him with your index finger or your little finger. This is possible because the opponent has already become powerless.

Source (http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html)
Draw your circle around that, Aurelian. :bow:

[yesdachi]

Interesting topic. Here’s my 2 cents on martial arts vs. traditional western fighting techniques like boxing and wrestling. :bow:

IMO many of the martial arts were developed with “flavor” in mind especially the Kung Fu type styles and although they have techniques for delivering great damage mostly they are for one-upping the other guy in exhibition type fights to gain attention and popularity. Other martial arts like the dozen styles of karate are more basic and were developed for fighting without taking years to learn and even other martial arts like judo and aikido were designed to channel an opponent’s energy and attacks back against them. A common theme to almost all martial arts is the use of all of the body and not instilling rules like “no kicking” like many western techniques do.

I am pretty confident that when combatants of an equal skill level fight, the one with the greatest number of weapons available will most likely win. There is no doubt in my mind I could mop the floor with someone that only used boxing techniques. Kicks are just too powerful and versatile and that’s why I feel that fighting styles that incorporate kicks and punches together are superior to many other fighting styles, throw in up-close techniques from wrestling, judo and aikido and anyone of equal skill level wouldn’t stand a chance.

A few other things to consider would be conditioning and physical fitness. Most boxers I know are in way better shape than those I know who study a martial art and they are use to being hit. But in contrast most people I know who have studied a martial art have been trained how to fall and recover where as a boxer is trained to do everything possible not to fall and if they do, well we have all seen how long it takes a boxer to get up after hitting the mat, 1… 2… 3… ~:joker: Joking aside I have seen some pretty tough guys take more damage by hitting the ground than from being knocked to the ground often from tripping during grappling an opponent. I would say in general most boxers and wrestlers are in better shape than their martial art using western peers (not true in any eastern area) but the experience using kicks and punches far outweighs the physical advantages they might have. Keep your six pack abs and 2% body fat if I can use just one leg.~D

For pure one on one fighting, guys like Mark Kerr, the smashing machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kerr), who use an anything goes style are the most formidable but in the real world where I would have to fight to save myself or defend someone I would rather know a martial art rather than boxing or wrestling. ~:)

[Just A Girl]

In a real fight its always better to deliver 1 swift blow to a pressure point,
Than it is to club away Mindlessly at your opponent,

Otherwize you wont have enough energy to finish your beer.

[DemonArchangel]

Ah_dut mentioned above that he does Wing Chun. That's a good martial art. A number of my friends used to study a variant of that (Wing Chun Do) around the University of Michigan. A couple of them went on to become instructors themselves, and it was always interesting to compare notes with them.

In Wing Chun Do, they basically go right through the opponent. They rely on quick short-range punches and kicks, and trapping combinations to tangle up their opponent's arms so they can't defend themselves.

About the arm trapping thing. Someone tried that on me once.

I still have a couple of scars on my forehead where his teeth cut into me. ~D

[GoreBag]

There's nothing wrong with a martial art. It's not all Eastern nonsense; other peoples produce them as well. There's a Russian wrestling art whose name I don't remember, for example. The Celts of ages long past had martial arts, too. Just ask Ranika.

[Redleg]

Amusing thread - almost as amusing as reading some threads that do nothing but criticize religion with the same sort of arguements.

edit: Oh - and I forget - all started over what one can assume is "penis" envy. ~:joker:

Edit: A second time. I might be just a tad harsh - but I find it amusing that some want to expose the belief systems of others as being false. Eastern Marital Arts, are primarily an Art to educate the body and mind for self-discpline. If one wants to believe the other aspects of the philosophies around some of them - all well and fine as far as I am concerned. As long as they are not attempting to force it on anyone - it makes it a voluntery belief system.

[bmolsson]

The thread reminds me a little bit about "Who got the best army today"....... :joker:

[Aurelian]

Great. More power to sword techniques. As long as we do not have to swallow O'Sensei's boisterous bullshit about his advocacy of world peace or his own extraordinary faculties...

Oh, and of course he made all the usual claims about his extraordinary capabilities. Here we have O'Sensei and his son Kisshumaro talking about them in a 1957 Japanese book on aikido:

Q: Were there any episodes while you were at the Toyama School?

O'Sensei: Strength contests?...One incident took place, I believe, before the episode with the military police. Several captains who were instructors at the Toyama School invited me to test my strength against theirs. They all prided themselves in their abilities, saying things like: "I was able to lift such-and-such a weight," or "I broke a log so many inches in diameter". I explained to them, "I don't have strength like yours, but I can fell people like you with my little finger alone. I feel sorry for you if I throw you, so let's do this instead." I extended my right arm and rested the tip of my index finger on the end of a desk and invited them to lay across my arm on their stomachs. One, two, then three officers by themselves over my arm, and by that time everyone became wide-eyed. I continued until six men lay over my arm and then asked the officer standing near me for a glass of water. As I was drinking the water with my left hand everyone was quiet and exchanging glances.

Q: Aside from Aikido, you must have tremendous physical strength.

O'Sensei: Not really.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba: Of course he possesses strength, but it should be described as the power of Ki, rather than physical strength. Some time ago, when we went to a new settlement in the country, we saw seven or eight laborers trying in vain to lift a huge tree stump. My father stood looking at it for a while and then asked them to step aside so he could try it. He lifted the stump easily and promptly carried it away. It is totally inconceivable to do such a thing with mere physical strength. Also there was an incident involving a certain Mihamahiro.

Q: Was he the same Mihamahiro of Takasago Beya Sumo Wrestling Association?

O'Sensei: Yes. He was from Kishu Province. When I was staying at Shingu in Wakayama, Mihamahiro was doing well in the Sumo ranks. He had tremendous strength and could lift three rods which weighed several hundred pounds. When I learned Mihamahiro was staying in town, I invited him to come over. While we were talking Mihamahiro said, "I've also heard that you, Sensei, possess great strength. Why don't we test our strength?" "All right. Fine. I can pin you with my index finger alone," I answered. Then I let him push me while I was seated. This fellow capable of lifting huge weights huffed and puffed but could not push me over. After that, I redirected his power away from me and he went flying by. As he fell I pinned him with my index finger, and he remained totally immobilized. It was like an adult pinning a baby. Then I suggested that he try again and let him push against my forehead. However, he couldn't move me at all. Then I extended my legs forward, and, balancing myself, I lifted my legs off the floor and had him push me. Still he could not move me. He was surprised and began to study Aikido.

Q: When you say you pin a person with one finger, do you push on a vital point?

O'Sensei: I draw a circle around him. His power is contained inside that circle. No matter how strong a man he may be, he cannot extend his power outside of that circle. He becomes powerless. Thus, if you pin your opponent while you are outside of his circle, you can hold him with your index finger or your little finger. This is possible because the opponent has already become powerless.

Source

Draw your circle around that, Aurelian.

Okay. I'm sure that the "claims" about Ueshiba's abilities above sound weird, but I can assure you that they line up with similar demonstrations I've seen. I've experienced the principles used in each of the examples given.

The first story... the one about the military policemen lying across Ueshiba's outstretched arm... is a variation on the 'unbendable arm' phenomenon that Aikido instructors regularly demonstrate. They'll often have several big guys hanging off their arm during a demonstration.

The inability of the gentleman in the second story to move Ueshiba is also something that is commonly demonstrated.

Pinning someone with a single finger is actually quite easy... I've done it myself frequently.

O'Sensei's comment about drawing a circle around somebody isn't as esoteric as it sounds:

O'Sensei: I draw a circle around him. His power is contained inside that circle. No matter how strong a man he may be, he cannot extend his power outside of that circle. He becomes powerless. Thus, if you pin your opponent while you are outside of his circle, you can hold him with your index finger or your little finger. This is possible because the opponent has already become powerless.

Explanation:

In order to effectively exert strength, you have to do it in relation to your center of balance. Thus, there is a "circle" around you of effective action. If your body is not in proper alignment, if you're off balance, you can't exert strength effectively against someone who is balanced and operating within their own "circle".

What an Aikidoka does is maintain a relaxed flowing balance that he can move in reaction to the attacks of another person. You simply move with your opponent/partner in such a way that their attack becomes merged with your "circle". You let them go in whatever direction they want to go, then (staying balanced) you join with their motion, lead them past their balance point, and redirect them into a throw. Techniques often finish with a pin or a joint lock.

Aikido uses sword training as a way to teach you about the limits of your own "circle", and how to co-ordinate your balance/weight/energy to a single point. The sword is held two-handed and the cut is co-ordinated with your center of gravity (your "hara"). When you remove the sword, you've learned how to effectively co-ordinate the power of your center of gravity with the action of your arms so you can execute locks or throws with concentrated power, and without throwing yourself off balance. It's pretty cool.

As for O'Sensei's checkered past (training Japanese secret police, etc.): Yes, he was a badass. His dojo was famous for hard training and injuries.

His subsequent enlightenment, and his hope that Aikido could become a vehicle for teaching harmony, were sincere. Aikido training is actually an excellent way to teach people to be more harmonious (Aikido is sometimes translated as the "way of harmony"). An Aikidoka's focus is on blending with his partner's intention and redirecting it towards a conclusion in which neither party gets injured. You can take the same mindset with you and apply it off the matt in real life situations.

:bow:

[Just A Girl]

Well im prety shure an island of short people who devised a way of fighting And were then able to survive through till the modernday couldnt have been all that wrong.

Wrestling sux big time and wouldnt help you vs me,
Boxing might if your fast enough,
and mutai just aint gonna cut it Cos its to damn slow.

Ju jitsu Brazilian i beleve Is more of an Efective form of wersteling,
Judo is really handy to learn It was the 1st matial art i began to learn.

I like breaking peoples wrists after they try to hit me
Its suprisingly easy if you do it right.
Karate was not so good,
but with 136 pressure points memorized and the abilaty to count a little in japanese Ithink, ich ney san... now Im happy to stick with my boxing and judo skills,
if i haft to kick some 1 il probably only use a front truss kick.
handy to give your self time and space to throw that Big over hand right,

Unfortunatly when i fight its usualy drunk and me vs 5-6 coky lil kids,
And then i get arested for Beating them up cos the lil buggers cant hit hard.

In real life situations Judo comes in handy,
karate just dosent seem to do much of anything,
And id much prefer to break some 1s bone By restraining them with their own weight and wrist , Than Hit some 1 in a pressure point and possibl;y kill them.

[Adrian II]

Explanation:Thank God for posters who are not so easily trown off balance.

You have given me some real beef to sink my teeth in, Aurelian. I will look into it and get back to you with questions. Not today probably, because I have some other assignments.

But one question comes up right away: do you think that the demonstrations you have seen (and given, appararently) can be explained with physics and physiology as we know them in the West?

Anyway thanks and I'll get back to you. :bow:

[English assassin]

I'm a bit puzzled as to the point of this thread?

If its to say that call it what you will the human body can only do what it can, is anyone disagreeing? So, Mr Penis-Towtruck has demonstrated the mildly surprising and ultimately pointless fact that the force required to tear off the male genitalia is less than the force required to move a truck. (I'd be more impressed if he could nail a 6" nail through a bit of 4x2 with his willy, but I digress) The arm thing above demonstrates that the force required to break an arm/finger locked out is less than the force exerted by a policeman's weight.

Frankly if they want to say their arm is stronger than it is because of "chi", so what. Its so obviously untrue physically its hardly worth commenting on, and if they need the "chi" story to convince themselves their bodies can do these things, well, that's just sports psychology.

Some of the other posts seem to be willy waving about how hard people are, as to which (1) yadda yadda, (2) IMHO AII was right to say that physical fitness is by far the most important element and (3) all other things being equal some martial arts, I can only say from experience ju jitsu but no doubt others, do teach a few moves that are quite useful to know. Most of it is for show or a sport but most practitioners know that.

[Adrian II]

I'm a bit puzzled as to the point of this thread?Well, you won't be surprised that I agree with most of what you say and that I am not lying awake at night from the supernatural powers I miss out on. But there are some interesting things in Aurelian's post that go beyond mumbo jumbo and the usual crap of 'I have seen a bongobongo instructor do some weird stuff' or 'If only I knew where you lived I would crush your groin with a haida sutsu and that would teach you.'

For instance I would like to know how the concentration of force technique that Aurelian wrote about compares to boxing techniques that teach one to concentrate one's full power in a punch.

Red Harvest, any thoughts?

[Proletariat]

While we're waiting for A2 to come up with more insightful questions for Aurelian, and for Red Harvest to chime in again, here's the match that I mentioned earlier, between Wanderlai Silva and Sakuraba.

http://www.weakgame.com/media_4842_Silva_Vs_Kondo.html

I think this clip shows that if you aren't powerful and fast enough, it doesn't matter what your style is.

[GoreBag]

I think this clip shows that if you aren't powerful and fast enough, it doesn't matter what your style is.

Not so much. Throws, elbows, biting, groin shots, wedgies and wet willies aren't permitted. In that kind of environment just flipping out happens to work, or did in that case. I did think the Asian fellow wasn't really using his head as I watched the clip.

[yesdachi]

While we're waiting for A2 to come up with more insightful questions for Aurelian, and for Red Harvest to chime in again, here's the match that I mentioned earlier, between Wanderlai Silva and Sakuraba.

http://www.weakgame.com/media_4842_Silva_Vs_Kondo.html

I think this clip shows that if you aren't powerful and fast enough, it doesn't matter what your style is.
Nice clip Prol, pretty one sided but a good example of an effective combined fighting style (I think more kicks would have ended it faster~D).


Side note about chi or ones body energy.
I think there is energy in the human body and I think its flow can be directed. I have studied acupuncture and acupuncturists with years of experience. One of which was the equivalent in China to an anesthesiologist in the US except he didn’t use any drugs only acupuncture and pressure points, even for open hart surgery~:eek:. He explained the chi pathways called meridians and the way it is possible to adjust the flow to make a body act differently. One patient of his that I interviewed was able to stop taking an expensive prescription that had loads of side effects after a few months of treatments, treatments that adjusted the flow of his chi to allow his body to produce the chemicals he was missing. The patient couldn’t fly or shoot force from his hands after the treatments but he claimed to have much more energy for days after the treatments. I am aware of some athletes who would have treatments of acupuncture and deep tissue massages the day before a contest or game to be better physically prepared for it. Another acupuncturist I spoke with described how it is possible to control ones own muscle tightening and relaxing in order to cure headaches and similar minor issues. Knowing that is possible it wouldn’t be much of a stretch (for me at least) to accept that after years of practice one could do great physical feats by adjusting the flow of chi.

Draw your own conclusions after some experience but I wouldn’t completely dismiss the existence of chi based on some crackpot’s outlandish claims.:bow:

[doc_bean]

The existence of Chi has been proven scientifically iirc. the real question is what can actually be done with it. I doubt it allows you to break the laws of physics.

[English assassin]

One of which was the equivalent in China to an anesthesiologist in the US except he didn’t use any drugs only acupuncture and pressure points, even for open hart surgery.

No disrespect intended, but I'd really like to meet and talk to someone who had had open heart surgery under acupuncture and pressure points, I really would.


The existence of Chi has been proven scientifically iirc.

Again not being funny but can you give us a link to a peer reviewed scientific journal?

Lets be clear on this, there ARE things that exist but that are not fully understood, and if it is possible to have major surgery with accupuncture or to start synthesising your own drugs / adjust your metabolism so you don't need the drugs this is big news that deserves proper investigation and widespread dissemination.

I have my doubts, but I'm willing to be persuaded, if we can just have an article or two in Nature or Science?

[Just A Girl]

The existence of Chi has been proven scientifically iirc. the real question is what can actually be done with it. I doubt it allows you to break the laws of physics.

Yes Ive watched A lil chinese man Summon Chi up whilst being filemd by a heat sensitive camera.

he said he concentrated it in a ball in his belly 1st,
Then mooved it to where he wanted the power.

and heat camera showed a hoter area mooving from his belly area, up to his arm
And then he threw a sewing needle through a pane of glass,

Guaranteed i saw it on discovery chanel.

So if you want details to disect :)
Go find them :bow:

[doc_bean]

Well, I got my info from National geographic ~:)
I(ll see if i can dig up anything, but you're asking for Nature or Science, not exactly easy magazines to get into.

I did find this while searching:


Title: Effects of Qi therapy (external Qigong) on symptoms of advanced cancer: a single case study
Author(s): Lee MS, Yang SH, Lee KK, Moon SR
Source: EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF CANCER CARE 14 (5): 457-462 DEC 2005

Abstract: The aim of this study was to examine the effectiveness of Qi therapy (external Qigong) in the management of symptoms of advanced cancer in a man. We used a single case study design to evaluate the effectiveness of Qi therapy (external Qigong) in a 35-year-old man with advanced cancer (Stage IV) involving metastases in the stomach, lung and bone (Karnofsky performance scale: KPS, 40: requires special care and assistance, disabled). Treatment involved six days of pre-assessment, eight treatment sessions on alternate days over 16 days, and a two-week follow-up phase. A visual analogue scale (VAS) was used to assess the patient's self-reported symptoms of cancer over the intervention and follow-up periods. Following treatment, VAS scores' analysis revealed beneficial effects on pain, vomiting, dyspnoea, fatigue, anorexia, insomnia, daily activity and psychological calmness. These improvements were maintained over the two-week follow-up phase. After the first Qi therapy session, the patient discontinued medication and could sit by himself; after the fourth session, the patient was able to walk and use the toilet without assistance (improvement in KPS: 70: care for self, unable to perform normal activity or to do active work). Although limited by the single case study approach, our results support previous studies on this topic and provide reasons to conduct controlled clinical trials.

Which shows how hard it is to find a believable study in a peer reviewed magazine these days...(1 testcase ~:joker: ).

[English assassin]

Quite, and in pallative care in a terminally ill patient too.


VAS scores' analysis revealed beneficial effects on pain, vomiting, dyspnoea, fatigue, anorexia, insomnia, daily activity and psychological calmness.

Not clear if any of those improvements were the removal of side effects from the drugs he was previously on, in which case he could have taken up "watching telly" therapy with the same benefit.

[yesdachi]

No disrespect intended, but I'd really like to meet and talk to someone who had had open heart surgery under acupuncture and pressure points, I really would.
None taken EA I was a bit skeptical too. Rujil Wang, CMD is the doc that applied the acupuncture as an alternative for anesthetic and pain control during surgeries. When I spoke with him he was very modest and reserved and was hesitant to “brag” about the things he can do. It took another doc pushing him to reveal some of his accomplishments before he would share them with me and even when he did they were a bit general (his English was not the best and I think he might have been a bit shy because of it) and the other doc filled in some of the gaps for me, fascinating information. I was not able to speak with anyone who actually had surgery with his assistance because they were all done in China (I’m not even sure if it legal to have it done here in the states?). I would have also liked to meet and talked to one of his patients. Dr. Wang commented on how it is especially helpful for people who suffer from allergic reactions to anesthetic.

A few of the issues with acupuncture that I am aware of that make it sometimes prohibitive are that it is rarely covered by insurance for things other than pain control and even thought it is not that expensive IMO, it can cost between $50-70 per session someplace even more I’m sure, and take dozens of sessions before it actually works. That’s a lotta dough to shell out on something your not sure will work. That brings me to the next issue, it is very individual in respect to time and efficiency. The guy I mentioned earlier had been going for several months before seeing results and even then he required a couple sessions every month to keep the treatment working, both the doc and the patient had guessed it would take several more months to be completely free of the sessions but he was already free of his prescriptions. In comparison to spending IIRC over $500 a month in prescriptions and having terrible side effects (impotence was one!~:eek:) the acupuncture was a great alternative. Being such an inconsistent treatment makes it very difficult to complete any formal “study” to have organizations like the NIH and others give it more official approval for treatment of specific aliments. As it stands now it is only officially approved for a few things.

I asked Dr. Wang about what he can “cure” with acupuncture he didn’t seem very fond of the word cure but what I gathered form the conversation was that there was practically no symptom he couldn’t eliminate or diminish and there was hardly a prescription he couldn’t help some one from having to take. It makes more sense to take an aspirin for a headache rather than go see him but for repeated migraines it would make more sense to visit him. When I interviewed him he allowed me to follow him and talk to his patients, he had 4 patients going at the same time (4 separate rooms and 4 different treatments) and he seemed to love his work and all but one of the patients were very happy with the treatments. The 4th was on his first session and didn’t care much for getting a needle poked in his rump (I have a few other fun stories from the interview if anyone wants to here them) but after the session he had better range of motion in his knee and was pretty happy. Dr. Wang was very confident that if someone were to come see him about any problem they were having he could make them better. ~:cool:

After knowing what I know about acupuncture I wouldn’t hesitate to have if needed but not ever from someone with a “certificate” from some trade college~;p.

Dr. Wang hangs his hat at the BORN Clinic (http://www.bornclinic.com/DesktopDefault.aspx), here is his bio (http://www.bornclinic.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=656), it has some conflicting information from page to page about # of treatments administered (after 80,000 who’s counting!) and years of experience (40+) but some of the pages on the site are obviously outdated.


Additional link (http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/#key) to an NIH site about acupuncture.

[doc_bean]

A couple of articles on acupuncture, only abstracts because I can't always access the actual article, and even if I could, it's copyrighted and damn expensive...
(all articles found through nature.com)



Acupuncture in the treatment of psychogenic erectile dysfunction: first results of a prospective randomized placebo-controlled study

P F Engelhardt1, L K Daha2, T Zils2, R Simak2, K König2 and H Pflüger2

International Journal of Impotence Research 15, 343-346 (01 Oct 2003) Original Research

In a prospective study, we investigated the potentially curative effect of acupuncture in patients with psychogenic erectile dysfunction (pED). A total of 22 patients with pED were randomized into two groups. They were either treated with acupunture specific against ED (treatment group) or acupuncture specific against headache (placebo group). Nonresponders of the placebo group were crossed over to the treatment group. Prior to acupuncture, serum sexual hormone levels, IIEF score, nocturnal penile tumescence testing for three nights (Rigiscan) and the erectile response to 50 mg sildenafil were evaluated. Out of 21 patients, 20 completed the study, including 10 patients after crossover. A satisfactory response was achieved in 68.4% of the treatment group and in 9% of the placebo group (P=0.0017). Another 21.05% of the pateints had improved errections, that is, sufficient rigidity under simultaneous treatment with 50 gm sildenafil. The results of our pilot study indicate that acupuncture can be an effective treatment option in more than two-thirds of patients with psychogenic erectile dysfunction.





The role of acupuncture in controlling the gagging reflex using a review of ten cases

J. Fiske1 and C. Dickinson2

British dental journal 190, 611-613 (09 Jun 2001) Research

The gagging reflex is a physiological reaction which safeguards the airway from foreign bodies. In some people this response is exaggerated to the extent that the acceptance/provision of dental treatment is not possible. The aim of this paper is to review the role of acupuncture in controlling gagging as a safe, cheap, quick and relatively non-invasive technique.

Method: Ten people agreed to try ear acupuncture to control gagging during dental treatment. Prior to treatment the severity of gagging was assessed. Acupuncture needles were inserted into a specific anti-gagging point on each ear, manipulated briefly and left in situ. Dental treatment was then carried out and the effectiveness of the acupuncture in preventing gagging was assessed. After treatment, the needles were removed and the patient discharged. All acupuncture was carried out by a dentist trained in its use.

Results: Four people had a severe gag reflex which made treatment impossible and six had a very severe reflex which made treatment impossible and affected their dental attendance. Ear acupuncture completely controlled the gag reflex in eight cases (23 treatment episodes) and partially controlled the reflex in two cases (two treatment episodes). Dental treatment could be carried out in all cases and at all visits. The cost of materials was £0.2 per person per visit. Additional clinical time was in the order of 2-3 minutes. There were no adverse reactions to the technique and, on all occasions, patients were fit to leave the surgery and travel home unaccompanied.

Conclusions: Ear acupuncture was successful in controlling the gag reflex. It is a safe, quick, inexpensive and relatively non-invasive technique. A controlled clinical trial is required to investigate any placebo effect.





Acupuncture as a therapy for overactive bladder

Carol Lovegrove

Nature Clinical Practice Urology 2, 520-520 (01 Nov 2005)

Current therapies for overactive bladder syndrome are limited: around 50–70% of patients respond to anticholinergic medication, although significant adverse effects cause many patients to withdraw from therapy. Behavioral and physical therapies often have good initial efficacy, but patient responses tend to attenuate after about 3 months. There is, therefore, an unmet need for effective treatments for this common and socially debilitating problem.

Emmons and Otto randomly assigned 85 women with urge incontinence to receive four sessions of weekly acupuncture treatment, either a course designed specifically to address overactive bladder symptoms, or a placebo acupuncture treatment designed for relaxation. There was no significant difference between the reduction in number of incontinent episodes between the treatment group (59%) and the placebo group (40%); however, in the treatment group, but not in the placebo group, there were significant reductions in urinary frequency and urgency and significant increases in maximum cystometric capacity and maximum voided volume. There was a significantly greater improvement in both the urinary distress scale (57% versus 32% decrease, P = 0.05) and incontinence impact questionnaire (52% versus 23% decrease, P = 0.004), in the treatment group compared with the placebo group, respectively.

This single-blind study showed good results for treatment-specific acupuncture despite a large placebo effect, similar to that previously reported in the overactive bladder literature (33–56%). Use of a 7-day rather than a 3-day symptom diary and longer follow-up might have allowed the detection of differences in incontinent episodes, say the authors.

[Slyspy]

OK then we need a volunteer to undergo invasive surgery while under the effect of acupuncture. All in the name of science and Eastern mumbo-jumbo. Anyone? Anyone at all?

[A.Saturnus]

The pain-reducing and anxiolytic effects of acupuncture have been tested in double-blind studies with placebos. That acupuncture works is a scientific fact, but the question is how it works. That it does is no proof that there´s anything involved that can´t be explained by modern physiology. Contemporary hypotheses circle around the stimulation of hormone release by the intrusion of the needles.

About the carrying of people on your arm, that´s not really extraordinary. In any good circus you can see acrobats balancing up to 15 people on their shoulders. It has nothing to do with strength or ki, but the distribution of force over the body. Your arm breaks if a force is concentrated on one spot, if it is spread out over the whole arm, the bone cannot break.

[bmolsson]

The pain-reducing and anxiolytic effects of acupuncture have been tested in double-blind studies with placebos. That acupuncture works is a scientific fact, but the question is how it works. That it does is no proof that there´s anything involved that can´t be explained by modern physiology. Contemporary hypotheses circle around the stimulation of hormone release by the intrusion of the needles.


Needles.... Geez.... :hide:

[Adrian II]

For instance I would like to know how the concentration of force technique that Aurelian wrote about compares to boxing techniques that teach one to concentrate one's full power in a punch.Well, I promised to get back on this issue, but so far I have not been able to find any reliable material about comparisons between fighting techniques. Each technique has its own jargon and it is very hard to find the physiological correlates of the terms used. So if there is a physiological basis for chi or for the concentration of force technique described by Aurelian, I haven't found it. I am still open to suggestions, I hope I haven't worn out everybodys patience with my persistence.
:bow:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sapp vs Crocop:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/76778/K-1_2003_Saitama_Mirko_vs1._Bob_Sapp-To.wmv.html

[Adrian II]

Sapp vs Crocop:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/76778/K-1_2003_Saitama_Mirko_vs1._Bob_Sapp-To.wmv.htmlInteresting. So in response to Mirko's kick, Sapp drops his right to protect his abdomen (which is a nono in boxing) and goes down from Mirko's excellent left hook. I didn't see any particular concentration in Mirko's left hook, just body mass and muscle tone -- but then I am an amateur, and willing to learn. Please enlighten me what made this hook especially devastating.
:bow:

[Proletariat]

Crocop is the closest thing I've seen to a real life terminator. But I think I saw him get knocked out once too in a quick and flukey upset.

Wish I had more to add to this interesting thread.

:bow:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Interesting. So in response to Mirko's kick, Sapp drops his right to protect his abdomen (which is a nono in boxing) and goes down from Mirko's excellent left hook. I didn't see any particular concentration in Mirko's left hook, just body mass and muscle tone -- but then I am an amateur, and willing to learn. Please enlighten me what made this hook especially devastating.
:bow:

From what I read about the fight Sapp was taken to the hospital later to check if the kick had done any internal damage, and the punch shattered his orbital bone (you can see him crying actually). I think the point is you can only take so many of those kicks before it messes you up in a bad way.

[Adrian II]

Crocop is the closest thing I've seen to a real life terminator. But I think I saw him get knocked out once too in a quick and flukey upset.

Wish I had more to add to this interesting thread.

:bow:Did you notice Sapp's devastating right punch, my lady? The one that went amiss twice, but could have wasted Mirko had it ever hit home?

Does anybody else know links to instructive videos on the subject?

[Adrian II]

From what I read about the fight Sapp was taken to the hospital later to check if the kick had done any internal damage, and the punch shattered his orbital bone (you can see him crying actually). I think the point is you can only take so many of those kicks before it messes you up in a bad way.So the kick to his abdomen was so painful that Sapp was forced to drop his guard? That would be the point here. I mean both gentlemen were packing a jaw-breaking right punch, no surprise there. Is this a classic combination -- kick to abdomen, followed by right/left hook?

We need Red Harvest as well on this one.

[Proletariat]

Did you notice Sapp's devastating right punch, my lady? The one that went amiss twice, but could have wasted Mirko had it ever hit home?


Indeed. I wouldn't expect a rematch to have the same result, but who knows?

I don't know how familiar you are with these two, but from that alone it is hard to appreciate just how large of a monster Crocop is. Sapp is like Godzilla.

Thanks for the link, Sasaki.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know how familiar you are with these two, but from that alone it is hard to appreciate just how large of a monster Crocop is. Sapp is like Godzilla.



Crocop is 6'2" 220 or so but he looks tiny next to Sapps 6'5" 350. Sapp isn't really much of a fighter, just huge.


Igor vs Crocop:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/200622/IgorVsCroCop.wmv.html

[Proletariat]

Similar ending, A2's onto something.

Here's one with one of my favorites, Fedor Emelianenko versus the well respected Nogueira. These two guys don't seem particularly concerned with their chi force.

http://d.turboupload.com/d/200642/Fedor_Emelianenko_vs_Antonio_Rodorigo_Nogueira.mpg.html

[Crazed Rabbit]

I saw the Crocop vs Sapp, and that must have been a heck of a punch. If he fell down after the initial shock-it must have hurt something awful (and it looked like it did).

Crazed Rabbit

[Adrian II]

Similar ending, A2's onto something.

Here's one with one of my favorites, Fedor Emelianenko versus the well respected Nogueira. These two guys don't seem particularly concerned with their chi force.

http://d.turboupload.com/d/200642/Fedor_Emelianenko_vs_Antonio_Rodorigo_Nogueira.mpg.htmlI see what you like about Fedor, he has got a certain impassiveness that would be attractive in a man. He looks almost literate as well, which can be an advantage on those long winter nights.

Jokes aside, I see what you mean about the fight. I believe I saw one straight kick, the rest was all wrestling and boxing. And pretty one-way too. I like the way Emelianenko was taking a breather on top of Nogueira, resting his head on Nogueira's belly whilst trying to get the occasional upper-cut in. He looked very relaxed.

And you are right that Fedor's chi seems to come to him kinda, um, naturally... ~;)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Jokes aside, I see what you mean about the fight. I believe I saw one straight kick, the rest was all wrestling and boxing. And pretty one-way too. I like the way Emelianenko was taking a breather on top of Nogueira, resting his head on Nogueira's belly whilst trying to get the occasional upper-cut in. He looked very relaxed.


Yeah, you watch that and you wonder how Nogueira got into a title match. But then I saw another match with him vs crocop; crocop dominated the first round but got submitted 30 seconds into the second. When you go for submissions like that you either win or get punched a LOT.

[doc_bean]

Indeed. I wouldn't expect a rematch to have the same result, but who knows?

I don't know how familiar you are with these two, but from that alone it is hard to appreciate just how large of a monster Crocop is. Sapp is like Godzilla.

Thanks for the link, Sasaki.

I saw a match between Sap and some huge Korean guy the other week, Sap actually looked tiny in there...

The other guy won too, a knee to the face scored him a lot of points (and he broke sap's nose).

[Adrian II]

I saw a match between Sap and some huge Korean guy the other week, Sap actually looked tiny in there...

The other guy won too, a knee to the face scored him a lot of points (and he broke sap's nose).Like he said, maybe Sapp just isn't such a good fighter. He is slow, yet very compact. He can take a lot of punishment until he can land that right punch, then it's payback time. Unless someone breaks his orbital bone.

Ouch.

[Proletariat]

Like he said, maybe Sapp just isn't such a good fighter.

It makes sense he isn't much of a real fighter. Sapp was an ex-NFL player, I believe, whereas Crocop is a Chekoslavakian police officer.

[Proletariat]

I see what you like about Fedor, he has got a certain impassiveness that would be attractive in a man. He looks almost literate as well, which can be an advantage on those long winter nights.


I'd provide his ring-side attention anytime.

:nurse:



Jokes aside, I see what you mean about the fight. I believe I saw one straight kick, the rest was all wrestling and boxing. And pretty one-way too. I like the way Emelianenko was taking a breather on top of Nogueira, resting his head on Nogueira's belly whilst trying to get the occasional upper-cut in. He looked very relaxed.

And you are right that Fedor's chi seems to come to him kinda, um, naturally... ~;)

I wish I could find the match I saw between Crocop and Fedor. Another classic.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I saw a match between Sap and some huge Korean guy the other week, Sap actually looked tiny in there...

The other guy won too, a knee to the face scored him a lot of points (and he broke sap's nose).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W6FL4819

Sapp vs Choi

[Sasaki Kojiro]

http://static.hugi.is/martial_arts/movies/

25 ufc vids (high and low quality)