View Full Version : "Settlement Besieged" -- what do you do?
Seamus Fermanagh
11-30-2005, 05:23
A Quiz on tactics -- comments appreciated.
Kekvit Irae
11-30-2005, 05:32
Fighting on the walls is a much safer tactic than sallying forth. Letting them come at you one at a time is much better than having to rearrange your troops once you get out of the gates. Fighting in the streets means you were too stupid or too unlucky to defend the walls.
I wait for a relief force if there is one nearby otherwise I wait on the walls.
Red Harvest
11-30-2005, 07:12
The AI is so inept with missile troops that I always sally. I always keep a missile unit or two around and start the war of attrition immediately, because I can't win the melee fight in most of these. In 95+% of sallies, even against much larger AI armies, the AI will try to turn away and set up farther from the city. The AI army is very vulnerable when it does this, so I rush archers/slingers out and close, which allows them to fire into the rear of withdrawing heavy infantry. A cav unit or two can also be used to make units rout or pick them off if they break.
I send out some light cav or family member in support of the missile units, so that I can successfully withdraw the missile units if things get hairy. I will also use any cav I have to chase down onagers and such, since they move too slow and get left behind before the AI has reset.
I usually have some spears available, and I will use these as a stop gap against cav attacks. I can actually tear up the enemy cav pretty well this way, since it tends to come in piecemeal.
Typical sally for me would be 2 slingers (or archers/horse archers combo), 1 or 2 units of spears, or moderate infantry, 1 family member, maybe 1 or 2 cav/mounted javs (if I didn't have hrose archers for missile troops--if I did then I probably wouldn't have any foot archers or foot slingers.) Typical force size is about 5-6 units total, often facing 15+.
Assuming a large enemy force, with my missile units and opportunistic cav attacks I seek to kill off at least 2 and usually 4 enemy units in my first major sally. Then, when I run out of ammo, I go back inside and take the draw. On the next turn I do the same--and if I have a bit of luck I can win on the 2nd sally. If I haven't got enough edge left to win the melee on VH/VH, I will instead withdraw again to take the draw. By the 3rd turn I am always am in position to win in the sally (or in defense if the enemy assaults.)
Rarely some major blunder will happen and I lose a sally. If I don't have enough missile units to win in time, I'll send in some relief units to produce a successful sally.
GreatEmperor
11-30-2005, 08:23
I just wait until the attack me, and then fight on/behind the walls or I position my army in the streets.
If they wait till starvation, I'll sally the 2nd last turn and the last if I lost the previous battle.
Somebody Else
11-30-2005, 09:20
I'll saunter out if it looks like I can get a few easy kills without any losses, but generally I'll wait for them to assault - it's nice and easy to clobber them on the walls, or funnel them into nasty little deathtraps in the streets. Sometimes a relief force is handy - then I'll sent that in.
All depends on the situation.
With phalanxes nothing is sweeter than a street-fight.
If I have good odds I'll sally quickly rather than being starved out. Usually I wait and see if the AI builds some siege-equipment and thus is going to assault. Otherwise I'll sally immediately - ideally with some outside aid.
Conqueror
11-30-2005, 11:08
I voted that I always sally out immediatly. That's what I usually do, except for these special cases:
- Settlement has 100% peasant garrison -> I wait for a relief force.
- I either have only infantry, or am outmatched like 10-1 -> wait for them to attack me.
Whether I fight on streets or walls depends on the type of units I have. If I have legionaries then I defend the walls. If I have just phalanxes then I fight on the streets.
When sallying, I usually leave my infantry out of the battle entirely, put my archers on the walls and use my cavalry to attack the enemy units one at a time. If they start chasing my cavalry then I retreat back to the walls where my archers and the towers will punish the chasers. Using these tactics I can win heroic victories against armies 5 times bigger, without major casualties to my own forces. It makes very boring and long winded battles though.
I usually attack from the walls, my cities usually have 5-6-7 units of archers, 2-3 cav's, rest inf. units.
Often the attackers go to right side of the field (dont ask me why), and will do that sort of in formation therefor coming within range of the archers on the wall,.. this will kill 3-400 of then in the first few minutes of the fight.
what I then do depends on the fact if I am attacked by 1 or more armies.
if it is one, I sally out for all my forces making a nice tight line with all archers behind then slowly creeping up on the army, decimating a lot of their units. What is left is then easy to kill with the infantrie and cav.
If there are more armies, you often know from what side they will join the fight, after the first sally of arrows from the walls I move my archers to side of the wall the other army has to pass killing perhaps 20-30% of them.
if the remaining army is to big I will lure unit to my walls with my general, teasing them to attack (if I have still arrows left). When nothing is left I turn game speed to max and wait the draw out...
this I will do till the sieging armies are defeated or till a supporting army arrives....
I only sally when the enemy are trying to starve me out and I usually do it on the last turn.
A heroic all or nothing attempt:charge:
If they don't then I wait for the assault.
And when they attack I will fight them on the walls and streets.
Usually put half of the infantry on the walls and the rest on the streets.
Mouzafphaerre
11-30-2005, 14:14
.
Depends:
If there's a relief force at most two turns away and the odds ―according to my observations, not the AI's calculations― are obviously against me, I rush the relief force and play a double penetration battle.
If the assaulting AI army has infantry units and a have one or two foor missile and two or more decent infantry units, I know that they will assault the next turn; kill them off on the walls. If I have light or missile cav, I also make mini-sallies from the backdoors (in case of besieging reinforcements) and decimate their often weak infantry.
If I'm behind wooden walls or lower, I sally no matter what. Even if I lost, I would take half or more of the besiegers with me to Valhalla.
:charge:
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Can a city be starved out in RTW in the first place? Whenever I try to do that, the AI always sallies forth in the last turn.
So far, I always had relief forces close enough, so I can´t recall being starved out. I haven´t seen many battles on the defender´s side, as well.
The AI sometimes surrenders without a fight when severely outclassed/outnumbered.
In my oppinion they should always sally - for no other reason than to take some of my troops with them when they go.
Mouzafphaerre
11-30-2005, 15:10
Can a city be starved out in RTW in the first place? Whenever I try to do that, the AI always sallies forth in the last turn.
So far, I always had relief forces close enough, so I can´t recall being starved out. I haven´t seen many battles on the defender´s side, as well.
.
In my recent Hun (BI) campaign I've noticed that Romans always prefer an honourable starvation while rebels always sally with their petty peasants and get grinded down. :charge:
.
Slicendice
11-30-2005, 15:49
I always sally. Especially if I have some good cavalry in the city.
I keep a unit or two of peasants in every city so usually sallying is not a good option.
Honestly though the AI is still crap. They seige and then leave the city alone and then they come back and seige it again. I am so disappointed with the AI. But that's another thread.
My cavalry rushes out when the enemy is repositioning. (just like another poster said)
Archers provide support.
Sometimes the enemy will chase my general around the city getting cut up by my archers and towers. Haven't seen that in BI yet.
I've defeated an army of thousands with just 1 general. Took a couple turns but I did it. All you really need to do is kill their infantry and then their cavalry will leave.
Somebody Else
11-30-2005, 16:10
Generally, as long as I have a halfway decent force within a city, I'm quite happy to let them try and assault me. Even if they do succeed in capturing the place, I can usually inflict such a mauling that I can waltz in the next turn or so and relieve the AI of their new settlement.
For example, taking Londinium off the WRE in BI, the Romano-British when they pop up go straight for it. Playing as the Saxons recently, 6 basic infantry units, 4 archers and 3 peasants were enough to inflict ~80% casualties on the full stack that popped up, allowing my Eburacum garrison to come in and win the place back without any problems. (Stone walls)
Also, fighting in the streets - any size settlement - effectively negates most of the advantage from numbers - was able to completely destroy a 3 quarter stack Roman army (several comitatenses, limitanei, archers, etc. oh, and a 6 star general) with 2 units of spearmen and a 3 star faction leader. (Stockade)
Basically - cities are deathtraps for assaulting armies, so let them die.
Prodigal
11-30-2005, 16:48
That's not a single answer question. If heavily outnumbered & have no relief force available sit & wait to defend. If the numbers are against me but I have a decent force & there's no relief, sally & do as much damage as possible with as little loss as possible, this has two results, you either get them to run, or at least do them some damage too. If I'm even close to their numbers, chase & destroy their army, then head straight for their nearest city; this has two benefits, you get you're own back & the follow up stacks they've probably got coming towards you, are fought on their land rather than yours.
I almost always sally out immediately.
This is because I almost alwasy garrison at least 4-5 archers and a couple spears in a border city, and can use this army to beat (or at least inflict pretty severe damage on in a "draw") most of what the AI brings.
If I don't have enough defenders (in relation to the attackers) I'll try to get a relief force there. I'll try to position them on the opposite side of the city from the besiegers, which allows me to get them inside the walls and then use my sally out tactics.
Actually defending a siege I almost never do, and if I do it's usually because I was so undermanned I couldn't sally out so it's an inevitable defeat.
Riedquat
11-30-2005, 18:27
I voted that I always sally out immediatly. That's what I usually do, except for these special cases:
- Settlement has 100% peasant garrison -> I wait for a relief force.
- I either have only infantry, or am outmatched like 10-1 -> wait for them to attack me.
Whether I fight on streets or walls depends on the type of units I have. If I have legionaries then I defend the walls. If I have just phalanxes then I fight on the streets.
When sallying, I usually leave my infantry out of the battle entirely, put my archers on the walls and use my cavalry to attack the enemy units one at a time. If they start chasing my cavalry then I retreat back to the walls where my archers and the towers will punish the chasers. Using these tactics I can win heroic victories against armies 5 times bigger, without major casualties to my own forces. It makes very boring and long winded battles though.
Word for word is exactly what I do.
Geoffrey S
11-30-2005, 18:37
Save and load.
The poll should probably be simpler:
1) Mostly sally out immediately
2) Mostly fight on the walls
3) Mostly fight in the street
4) Mostly wait to sally out (w/ relief force)
I've probably done all of the above at times, but sally out immediately 90% of the time.
gardibolt
11-30-2005, 21:00
Like others here, it's situational.
If the besiegers have lots of archers and I have a fair amount of cavalry, I'll sally and try to wipe them out.
If I see them building siege engines, I'll wait for the assault since it's like defending a bridge battle: cake.
If all I have are peasants, I scoot a relief force as fast as I can.:charge:
But I voted wait for the siege since that's what applies about half the time.
Uesugi Kenshin
11-30-2005, 22:07
I sally immediately if there is no sally force nearby, unless a victory is impossible. For example I won't sally a unit of principes against a stack or half a stack unless it is extremely peasant heavy. If there is a relief force within a couple of turns I will wait for it if I think I'll need the extra edge in a battle, but that doesn't happen too often.
Red Harvest
11-30-2005, 22:18
After responding in this thread, I had the nightmare sally scenario unfold: I was playing Numidia on VH/VH. Egypt besieged me in Siwa before I could get any long range units...still I sallied...three times...Egypt was reinforced and we fought in the streets/square where I was narrowly beaten by the surviving egyptian family member.
Initial battle, Sally 1:
Numidia (me): 1 mid size family member, 2 Numidian Mtd. Javs., 4 Numidian javelinmen (1 a merc), 2 Desert Infantry, 1 Peasant. Relatively large army, but NO long range units were available.
Egypt: ~2 mid size family members (chariot archers), 1 chariot archer, 3 bowmen, 1 javelinman, 1 slinger, 1 Numidian Cav merc., 4 Nubian spearmen, 3 peasants.
This should be an impossible match up for Numidia as it is massively outranged and would be severaly outclassed in melee both on the mounted side, and on the infantry side. However, the AI has no idea how to use all those archers or its phalanx units...and I know that.
Tough fight, but I managed to catch the bowmen on the run and kill all but 30 of them. Killed some of the peasants, which are a nuisance on VH. Set my javs loose on the chariot archer unit cutting it down to 1/3rd. Also used javs to weaken the Nubian phalanxes. Killed off the merc. cav. Losses due to chariot archer missiles were high but I still killed better than 2:1 before withdrawing.
Sally 2:
My decent general got caught by some chariots and was killed in this sally (running down bowmen and being slowed by remaining peasant speedbumps...which allowed the chariots to catch him,) fortunately I was "reinforced" by a family member coming of age in the settlement. Now with reduced morale, I couldn't keep my javs from routing, but did cause more damage to the phalanx units, etc.
Sally 3:
Situation desparate. Weak general. Pushed forward with javs to kill off phalanx, and hoped that chariots would try to engage. Nubians nearly dead at the end, chariot archer unit dead, only the two Egypian family members and a few scraps remained...but I couldn't face them until my troops were re-equipped with missiles and morale.
Assault:
AI reinforced with two units of slingers and 2 more nubian spearmen. I'm down to scraps: small general unit, small numidian cav, 2 javelinmen, 1 spearman. I sally out with puny cav force as the rams approach killing 3/4 the slingers manning them. General gets caught by an Egyptian family member and is of course mauled but makes it back into settlement. One ram makes it to the wall, my javs close to the wall inflict heavy losses on the spearman. I withdraw to the square. Rout all units of phalanx spearmen at the square, and kill the enemy general, but finally succumb to the remaining enemy family member.
Conclusion:
Had my main general not been killed in the 2nd sally, I would have won. The reinforcements Egypt received were then pivotal. Still came close to pulling it off. The AI has no idea how to use its forces. There was no way for me to reinforce, so I risked nothing by sallying. In the end I destroyed nearly a full Egyptian's stack worth of men, giving me time to take out the remaining Carthaginians in Africa at Lepcis Magna, and prepare a *real* army to meet the Egyptians near Cyrene.
Red Harvest
11-30-2005, 22:43
Main reasons I sally are:
1. Attrition of larger enemy force, with little cost to me.
2. Ending effects of siege on my economy sooner.
3. Using potential relief forces to strike at the enemy cities instead...taking the war to them, rather than fighting at home. This is normally a big part of my plan. Letting the enemy tie up its forces in a siege while I take its adjacent territories.
4. Little risk...taking the draw is nearly always an option--unless I get sloppy.
5. Relieving forces have problems at times so relying on them is risky: running into rebels on the way, getting ambushed by rebels along the way, and of course the potential for not having control of the army with the family member in it...
Kaldhore
12-01-2005, 06:27
As many others have said you cant really give one answer - at least thats the way it should be.
High Cav - Sally
Phalanx Inf - Fight in streets (If using many Archers with Phlanx - have them shoot on the walls then as the enamy gets to the walls - run along the walls to the other gates then come down off the wall to the main square - leading the enemy to your spears).
Non-Phanlanx Inf - all or nothing Wall fight
Remember tho that when you play as the Romans in RTW, you can get Phalanx Mercs from sardinia - Never wait for the Senate to tell you to take Sardinia, go for it asap, then hire the mercs when ever you can - put the merc phalanx in border towns close to enemies and see the effects - early on v the gauls they are outstanding.
Kagemusha
12-01-2005, 12:34
I dont face many assaults in the game.I mostly handle these things stratecigally. I place my defensive armys so that they are actually very near the enemy cities.If enemy army sieges my City, i usually move the war in their domain by counter sieging one of their cities.This usually leads into that the enemy army breaks the siege and tryes to lift the siege from their own city,what gives me the edge of fighting an defensive battle and usually gives me a new city.~;)
If this wont happen i bring army from the interior from my domain and attack the invading force,but this have not happened many times.:bow:
Garvanko
12-01-2005, 13:51
Save and load.
Heh.
Usually I try to relieve the besieged city and fight them in the field. I sally only if I have superior numbers and troops or where I am left with no other choice.
The AI is so inept with missile troops that I always sally. I always keep a missile unit or two around and start the war of attrition immediately, because I can't win the melee fight in most of these. In 95+% of sallies, even against much larger AI armies, the AI will try to turn away and set up farther from the city. The AI army is very vulnerable when it does this, so I rush archers/slingers out and close, which allows them to fire into the rear of withdrawing heavy infantry. A cav unit or two can also be used to make units rout or pick them off if they break.
I send out some light cav or family member in support of the missile units, so that I can successfully withdraw the missile units if things get hairy. I will also use any cav I have to chase down onagers and such, since they move too slow and get left behind before the AI has reset.
I usually have some spears available, and I will use these as a stop gap against cav attacks. I can actually tear up the enemy cav pretty well this way, since it tends to come in piecemeal.
Typical force size is about 5-6 units total, often facing 15+.
Assuming a large enemy force, with my missile units and opportunistic cav attacks I seek to kill off at least 2 and usually 4 enemy units in my first major sally. Then, when I run out of ammo, I go back inside and take the draw. On the next turn I do the same--and if I have a bit of luck I can win on the 2nd sally. If I haven't got enough edge left to win the melee on VH/VH, I will instead withdraw again to take the draw. By the 3rd turn I am always am in position to win in the sally (or in defense if the enemy assaults.)
Rarely some major blunder will happen and I lose a sally. If I don't have enough missile units to win in time, I'll send in some relief units to produce a successful sally.
I just cut and pasted this rather then just write it again in my own words. :)
Just A Girl
12-01-2005, 14:29
It depends on the seige equipment they have,
If the have tebushays and magonels and stuff, Then Sally out and attack them is what id say,
if they have ladders and battering rams,
Id say fight them on the walls,
But Usualy il try to send men down to eliviate the seige.
There wasnt an option that i would feel comfortable voting for,
So i abstained
Kekvit Irae
12-01-2005, 14:37
It depends on the seige equipment they have,
If the have tebushays and magonels and stuff, Then Sally out and attack them is what id say,
if they have ladders and battering rams,
Id say fight them on the walls,
But Usualy il try to send men down to eliviate the seige.
There wasnt an option that i would feel comfortable voting for,
So i abstained
The problem is, I have yet to see the AI build any long-range siege weapons. I guess it's different in multiplayer
gardibolt
12-01-2005, 18:24
Sallies would work much better if cavalry would go back into the city when you tell them to; this business of lining up to go through the gate, sending them into the arms of the enemy, is suicidal. Because of this behavior, I seldom can afford to make more than one sally.~:mecry:
Red Harvest
12-01-2005, 19:01
The problem is, I have yet to see the AI build any long-range siege weapons. I guess it's different in multiplayer
I've had the Julii attack me with onagers, scorpions, and ballistae... They were quite accurate but I play on VH/VH. I learned to time my cav charge to catch the lumbering siege gear while the enemy was redeploying.
I wait until the AI loses interest and wanders off. Failing that I hit the attackers with the nearest decent army stack I have safe in the knowledge that the AI will not have a competent general in charge nor a great variety of troops.
Red Harvest
12-01-2005, 19:12
Sallies would work much better if cavalry would go back into the city when you tell them to; this business of lining up to go through the gate, sending them into the arms of the enemy, is suicidal. Because of this behavior, I seldom can afford to make more than one sally.~:mecry:
With cav and horse archers I usually send them to the side gates if there are enemies in pursuit (taking the HA's off skirmish is a necessity near the walls/gates anyway.) Pursuit along the walls is a bad idea for the AI, as it will get shot at.
....but is too dumb to avoid the towers.
Red Harvest
12-01-2005, 19:26
....but is too dumb to avoid the towers.
True, but it takes casualties on the trip in, and on the way out. The casualties will make them less formidable and hurt their morale (so they might break off.) So in the end, my cav will take fewer casualties going through a less cluttered gate with a weakened enemy. And my cav will outrun foot, it is only other cav that I need worry about.
And if I have a far larger force than normal...I sometimes keep some spearmen posted near the side gates so that I can turn the tables on over eager cav pursuit.
Seamus Fermanagh
12-01-2005, 21:29
Learned a lot here. Good stuff folks.
Tried a Red Harvest punitive sally against a Selooky siege force (276 attacking troops to my 1000 or so). Broke the siege by annoying them and drawing them under the bows and towers and by slapping at them with scythes when I could get a spear group from the rear. I ended with a draw, but lost just 20 to their 180 or so. They scarpered.
Never knew the AI was so rich -- 2 phalanx units and 3 Hefalumps!
Still love a wall & street fight best in this whole game -- nice and stressful from either end.
Main reasons I sally are:
1. Attrition of larger enemy force, with little cost to me.
2. Ending effects of siege on my economy sooner.
3. Using potential relief forces to strike at the enemy cities instead...taking the war to them, rather than fighting at home. This is normally a big part of my plan. Letting the enemy tie up its forces in a siege while I take its adjacent territories.
4. Little risk...taking the draw is nearly always an option--unless I get sloppy.
5. Relieving forces have problems at times so relying on them is risky: running into rebels on the way, getting ambushed by rebels along the way, and of course the potential for not having control of the army with the family member in it...
I agree with all of the above.
The one thing I would add is that you can both sally immediately and use a relief force.
I recently had a siuation where I (as Franks on VH/VH) was besieged by Saxons with an army that contained 5 family members, 2 Hunters, but only 4 or 5 units of infantry. I only had 4 hunters garrisoned as it was not a city close to my border.
I sent some relief troops. And while waiting for them to arrive I sallied with my 4 hunters, focusing on attriting down his 2 hunters. When my first batch of relief troops arrived a turn later (which was just 4-5 units) I sallied twice focusing on attritting his infantry. By the time he had his siege engines built he didn't feel he had enough infantry left to man an attack.
A few turns later I got a second relief force there, which I also sallied out with. At this point, the remaining Saxons (literally just 4 generals units) gave up and rode away. 3 draws, 2 relief armies, siege broken.
A good thing you've made this a multi-choice poll. I picked the ones that generally apply to me: sally when under 2:1, wait for assault, fight on walls, fight in streets.
I really depends on the situation. I'll sally only if I know for sure that I will win or if it's a critical moment. For instance, if I don't do it now another stack will arrive to reinforce next turn making it impossible or if I'm on a tight budget and a long siege would put me into the red. Otherwise I wait and fight when they assault.
Whether I fight on the walls or in the streets depends on MANY factors including (1) the composition of my army (2) the composition of the enemy army (3) the type of wall (wooden or stone) (4) the layout of the city (barbarian towns are harder to defend in the streets) (5) whether I have reinforcements arriving from outside the walls and many other minor things. I will always sally on the last turn or when it becomes obvious that they will not assault (not building siege equipment or all-cav army).
edyzmedieval
12-02-2005, 18:20
Most of the time, 80%, I sally and attack.
Or I bribe the guys.....
gardibolt
12-02-2005, 18:43
With cav and horse archers I usually send them to the side gates if there are enemies in pursuit (taking the HA's off skirmish is a necessity near the walls/gates anyway.) Pursuit along the walls is a bad idea for the AI, as it will get shot at.
Hm, good tip. Thanks!
Celt Centurion
12-05-2005, 00:17
Hm, good tip. Thanks!
I almost always sally forth immediately. What I have noticed is that for the most part, the only cities and towns that get besieged are the ones more or less bordering an enemy, or on a coast directly across the water from an enemy. With this in mind, I make it a point to keep those fully stacked at all times.
My typical full stack is: (all approximate)
4 to 5 units of archers. If I am a faction with weak archers, I try to keep a lot of Cretan archers as they have better range than say, Greek, or Roman Archers. On the other hand, if I can get Roman Archer Auxilia, German archers, or Pharaoh's bowmen, they are great. I line them up on the walls facing the enemy before I sally.
Preferably 6 units of cavalry. If for example, the enemy is parked outside my North gate, I usually put half of the cavalry at the East gate, and half at the West gate.
I like to have about 3-4 groups of skirmishers. They are initially deployed just inside the gate, and how I use them depends on what the enemy does when I "start battle."
Then I like to have 5-6 heavy infantry, and they are just beside the skirmishers.
I rarely even train up onagers or other artillery because when defending a city, they usually do more damage to my walls than an enemy. I also suspect that they sometimes fire short rounds that cause casualties among my own archers. Rarely do I have a place to even put them where they don't do more damage than an enemy.
The battle begins.
In RTW vanilla, the enemy used to stand there while my archers filled them with arrows. They don't do that anymore with the 1.2 patch.
Now, they usually run to the (my) right. Once in a while to the left. They stay just outside the range of my archers.
When they move to the left or right, now I send out my skirmishers to nail them, and hopefully provoke them to come closer to the walls. Sometimes they do, usually though, they just withdraw a few yards.
While the skirmishers are spiking the enemy's canteens, I have cavalry (remember from the East and West gates) ride out and outflank them, prefering to send them right up to the red line so that the enemy has to run past them once they're routing. So now, my skirmishers are spiking them, and my cavalry are actually behind them, and at this point, they have made it clear that they are not coming up to meet my archers.
So, I march out my infantry toward the corner of the wall which is closest to the enemy, put my archers on "cease fire" and run them to the corner up on the walls. "Cease fire" is very important here.
This is where the enemy will often start to march on the infantry and skirmishers. I let them come, and when I suspect them to pretty much be "in range", I put the archers on "fire at will." At this point, the archers are shooting, the skirmishers and infantry are engaged, and I put my cavalry to gallop right into the enemy's rear, and he's wondering "What happened?", and they start to rout.
If my infantry are the types which were in phalanx formation (such as Greek or Selucid), I put them in standard formation, and double click on an enemy so that my infantry are chasing and killing them. On the other hand, if my infantry are legionary cohorts, praetorian cohorts, or urban cohorts, I simply put them on "fire at will", and I don't have to tell them anything else. Then all units chase down and kill fleeing enemy units.
On the other hand, if the enemy charges at my gate as soon as I "start battle", my archers make quick work of them, and my cavalry chases them down when they flee.
If I am besieged in a wooden wall or palisade city with a small army (early in the game when nobody has a large one yet), I still use the same basic formation, but instead of actually going out with my army, I let the General go out alone. Invariably, the enemy will chase my General. As they chase him along the wooden wall, the towers pick off whoever is chasing him. I have gotten a draw by simply letting my towers pick off an army as they chase the general. The towers have actually reduced a chaser by 30% to 50% as they gallop or march around the perimeter. Two or three turns like that, and they give up, or are whittled down enough for the army I do have to take care of them. I have only lost one general doing this when he was almost to a gate, and enemy light cavalry (faster) caught up with him (his horse was not as fast as his bodyguard's), and all of his bodyguard was out there in front of him. The only casualty was the general himself. Unfortunately the bodyguard was lost at the end of the turn.
If there is another city close by, I will also send reinforcements from there if the garrison in the one besieged is weak. (Nothing close in some places.)
I do not wait for them to attack me. There have been a few times when I was besieged, and forgot a city was under siege, (several under siege at one time) and they attacked, but in these cases, I stagger half of my infantry and all of my archers on the wall. I put the archers on "use fire" and direct fire on the siege machinery. Once it's all destroyed, "extinguish flames" and use the arrows to nail the attackers. When and if a siege tower reaches the wall, I post the infantry on the wall to hold them there. Between my infantry and my towers, their men coming out of the siege towers do not last long. If I have another infantry "behind" the enemy when one is engaging them from the other side, I send the second one to carve them up from the other side.
I have never lost a stone wall city to a siege. In my very first campaign about a year ago, I almost lost one because all it had was 6 units of town watch, exactly as Vicoria suggested. It had not occured to me to train archers and cavalry. I held on because the last of the town watch (3 men) held on at the town square against nearly 200 of the enemy, and the clock ran out.
One other time, I had a full stack in the Stone wall city of Cyrene. They were besieged, and I forgot about them. About 9 turns later, I kept noticing "riots" which killed so many of my soldiers there over about 4 turns, but I neglected to even look at them, because there was no money to retrain casualties, and I was really busy elsewhere. I finally looked at Cyrene, and to my horror, there was a full stack out there from Macedon, and all of my units were at half strength or less, and one turn to surrender. I sallied, and it was a near run thing. When the smoke cleared after the battle, I had won, but the ai had consolidated my stack to one unit of cavalry, one of archers, one of peltasts, and one of two types of infantry, and they were all badly depleted! It took over a dozen turns to get back up to full strength, because there was so little left.
I would not recommend "waiting."
If you have a strong army in there to begin with, a sally on the first turn will chase them off almost every time.
It's harder now with the 1.2 because they don't stand out there waiting for arrows anymore, but then again, I could never understand why they stood out there waiting for arrows to start with.
I certainly don't like to fight them in the streets defensively. That is a very bad indicator. The best way is to kill them just outside your wall, and let your cavalry clean up the stragglers.
Strength and Honor
Celt Centurion
lets see, If i got phalanxes even low moral militias set up on the crucial points near the town center, man i remeber in my seclucid campaign defending off 5 or 6 FULLY stacked armies with nothing but 3 or 4 militia hoplite units, needless to say my general became a legend in short time
if i got stone walls and good infantry on the walls, if i can hold off the initial drop off of the seige tower door dropping then i've won already, if i have good infantry and wood walls then set up around the breaces if i have enough if not, defend the center....
welll needless to say i prefer phalanxes in my garisons
Kickius Buttius
12-12-2005, 20:55
Very situational, as others have pointed out.
I would say that most often I bribe the offending army out of existence. I keep a diplomat within two turns of every city that I own and try to keep at least 10,000 denarii on hand at all times. I play on h/h or vh/h, so this isn't always possible, but most of the time I am able to do so.
Failing bribery, my preferred method would be to send a relief force. I think the AI makes defending the city too easy.
professorspatula
12-12-2005, 21:58
I sally if I can. The AI is very poor at sieges, and now at least the AI retreats far from the walls when you sally so you have a proper fight. That said, I've waited a bit longer than usual to sally lately. If I'm not confident of a good victory and I know the AI will just send more units to siege my settlement again, I might let the AI assault the walls in their own time. Depending on my force, I'll try and hold walls for as long as possible, but also send cavalry out to cause the enemy as much trouble as possible. The last such battle I had, the stupid AI had all its archers carry their siege equipment, so I was able to use mercenary archer cavalry and heavy cavalry outside the walls and kill off much of their force whilst my infantry held the walls. Had their archers been free to fire, they'd have killed most of my cavalry and defenders on the walls. In fact in the battle, it was the AI's pesky wardogs that caused the most trouble, chasing my cavalry back into the stronghold, and then biting at their heels down the streets. It's so embarassing to see your elite cavalry taken down by a bunch of overfed mutts.
Red Harvest
12-12-2005, 22:51
LOL, yeah, the wardogs are a real immersion killer for me, and the problems of not being able to engage them properly really get on my nerves. My solution was to remove them from the building queue. Now I get to face more historical units.
Perhaps it is just me, but I haven't found dogs intimidating since I was 8 years old.
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