Winning Eleven 9: The Total War of Football games!!!

[hellenes]

As it seems CA isnt the only one staying as a beakon of realism in the darkness of dumped down clickfest basebuiding toys.
KONAMI has assumed the same role in the field of football games with Winning Eleven Series delivering top notch SIMULATION of football at an insane level.
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/sports/winningeleven9/index.html

Hellenes

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think most Europeans will affectionately know it as Pro Evolution Soccer. Its practically an institution in my house!

[TheSilverKnight]

Damn, you guys had me all excited for a moment, until I found out it was Soccer.

~:handball:

Something wrong with 'Soccer', Gelatinous? ~;)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Not this game mate. You yanks need to watch some good sport that will sort you out~D

[hellenes]

I should say the same about you Euros and 'real' football. You've all got the notion that it is just about big guys hitting eachother while wearing pads. That's just not true. ~:mecry:

Ah well, takes all kinds.

"REAL" "football"?
You call a sport played primarly with hands (throwing catching grabbing) and with an OLIVE shaped object that is a ball as much im the Pope, "FOOTBALL"?
~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused:
Its very strange that words sometimes are just commonly agreed sounds that dont reflect their meaning.

Hellenes

[hellenes]

I call it 'real' football out of nationalism, not logic. :knight:

"Nationalism is an ideology which holds that the nation, ethnicity or national identity is a "fundamental unit" of human social life, and makes certain political claims based upon that belief; above all, the claim that the nation is "the only legitimate basis for the state", and that "each nation is entitled to its own state"."
"The nationals (the members of the "nation") are distinguished by a common identity, and almost always by a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent. The national identity refers both to the distinguishing features of the group, and to the individual’s sense of belonging to it."

Well for one to consider the EUROPEAN (mainly but also others) COLONISTS of the Northern America to be part of or constitute a nation without having a practically viable claim to history language or separate cultural development. Then the Total War global community composes a nation of Totalwarers who have about 100 languages and dialects, have "history" of roughly 6 years and live on the Planet earth.

Hellenes

[hellenes]

Despite this: http://www.konami.com/gs/gameinfo.php?id=164&pid=1

which admittedly was a page set up almost 4 months ago, there is official word now that WE9:I WILL NOT be released in the United States on any format.

I was watching a gaming show on cable this morning and it interviewed Konami America about the product line for the XBox360 and whether they had got far in development for PS3 titles given the developer kits were very late being sent out. They went on about the PS3 for about 5 minutes saying that the most exciting thing was the storage capacity of the blu-ray format for RPG etc. blah blah blah and then they went through their list of titles under production for both machines.

I figured when they listed the development line-up they just didn't bother mentioning it but they made a special point of saying, AS FOR THE COMPANY'S BEST SELLING SPORTS CONVERSION OUTSIDE OF JAPAN, THERE WILL BE NO SOCCER TITLE FROM KONAMI THIS YEAR FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN MARKET AS KONAMI AMERICA WILL BE WAITING FOR THE FIRST OFFICAL RELEASE FOR THE PS3 IN JAPAN BEFORE CONVERTING THE TITLE TO NEXT GEN MACHINES IN WESTERN EUROPE. FOR THE U.S. THIS MEANS NO TITLE UNTIL 2007 SO GAMERS WILL HAVE TO MAKE DO WITH EA SPORTS FIFA WORLD CUP REELASE AND A RUMORED CONVERSION OF FOOTBALL KINGDOM WHICH IS UNDERSTOOD TO HAVE SECURED A WIDER DISTRIBUTION THROUGH PARTNERSHIP WITH OTHER SOFTWARE HOUSES WHO WILL CONVERT THE TITLE FOR MULTI-PLATFORM RELEASE.

This came from the interview with the heads at Konami America so I'm assuming it's not BS and they had the guy talking on the screen for almost ten minutes about the companies releases so I'm figuring if he says it, it must be true!!!! The stores which have it listed are making the usual assumations of release. I got a little suspicious when I read the official Konami website as in the link at the beginning as it mentioned "New Leagues" etc. and then I realized it was the same press release almost as for WE8:I.

Sucks but then if it was only going to be a straight conversion again of PES5, we're really not missing much. Hopefull by the time we receive WE10:I, it will be an awesome title for both XBox360 & PS3

Woops...
Sorry M$

Hellenes

[GoreBag]

North American football is actually called football because one is allowed to kick the ball (punt) at any time. That being said, Canadian football is a superior game to American football.

[The Stranger]

Gelatinus should think twice before he starts calling his SISSY WANNABE MEDIEVAL ALL ARMOURED I DONT WANT TO GET HURT GAME a real game...not forget to mention that you called it a real FOOTBALL game...you guys just play the sissy rugby version and claim it for your own...you play New Seeland first and talk later

[Strike For The South]

Gelatinus should think twice before he starts calling his SISSY WANNABE MEDIEVAL ALL ARMOURED I DONT WANT TO GET HURT GAME a real game...not forget to mention that you called it a real FOOTBALL game...you guys just play the sissy rugby version and claim it for your own...you play New Seeland first and talk later

wow Do you know why the average NFL football players life is 55 22 years younger than the average american? Have you seen Eric Dickerson or Gale Sayerws latley? Does Rugby have 6'6 300 Lb men who csn run sub 5 sec 40s? Men who can bench 500 squat 1000 lbs? How many people die in Rugby each year? Last year in Texas highschool football 5 kids died from on field injuries. Rugby is a rough game of tag with tiny men.

[hellenes]

Fear your caps! Oh mighty representative of the oh-so-eloquent European peoples! I bow before your soft tongue and sharp wit!

:san_laugh:

Gelatinous Cube
*reality check*
YOURE NOT AMERICAN
YOURE A EUROPEAN IMMIGRANT
*reality check ends*
FOOT BALL
PLAYED WITH FOOT AND A BALL

Hellenes

[hellenes]

European Immigrant? Riight. That makes you an African.

Oddly enough there was a sceleton 10 million years old found in Trillia Chalkidiki cave northen Greece by Professor Poulianos...
So that makes me a Greek... :san_wink: :san_wink: :san_wink:
http://zeus.hri.org/news/greek/mpa/1996/96-11-29.mpa.html

Hellenes

[Monarch]

wow Do you know why the average NFL football players life is 55 22 years younger than the average american? Have you seen Eric Dickerson or Gale Sayerws latley? Does Rugby have 6'6 300 Lb men who csn run sub 5 sec 40s? Men who can bench 500 squat 1000 lbs? How many people die in Rugby each year? Last year in Texas highschool football 5 kids died from on field injuries. Rugby is a rough game of tag with tiny men.

Hi,

I have a few comments on that post. Now I am British but I did watch the superbowl last year to see what all you americans like about it. I must say first of all however is this (http://www.sportsdays.co.uk/images/photos/rugby/worldcup2003winners.jpg)
a tiny man? And is this (http://www.tcnj.edu/~njrugby/BloodBrothers.jpg) a man who has been playing a game of tag? Oh and sub 5 seconds for what distance, I personally can run sub 5 for the metre....Oh and have you ever seen New Zealand play, the skill, speed, fitness, coordination and everything else is brilliant.

Anyway now back to my experience of the superbowl. First of all what the hell is with all the breakdowns? Play stops every 10 seconds, it like they flick it back to the quater back, he tosses it to some guy, the guy catches it and then everyone has a breather. It is incredibly slow, yes occassionally they sprint but I wouldnt say much cardio vascular stength is needed.

All i'm saying is, how many nations play American football? How many play Rugby? (I'd wager a few more play more interesting and fast paced game that is Rugby Union, or even Union's ugly brother that's Rugby League.)

PS. Did you know one of the, if not THE most fast paced games in the world is Rugby Sevens?

PPS. Apologies for being off topic.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Agreed with Sovereign...

Dang SFTS, I just can't agree with you on anything lately!:san_laugh: :san_wink:

[Strike For The South]

Hi,

I have a few comments on that post. Now I am British but I did watch the superbowl last year to see what all you americans like about it. I must say first of all however is this (http://www.sportsdays.co.uk/images/photos/rugby/worldcup2003winners.jpg)
a tiny man? And is this (http://www.tcnj.edu/~njrugby/BloodBrothers.jpg) a man who has been playing a game of tag? Oh and sub 5 seconds for what distance, I personally can run sub 5 for the metre....Oh and have you ever seen New Zealand play, the skill, speed, fitness, coordination and everything else is brilliant.

Anyway now back to my experience of the superbowl. First of all what the hell is with all the breakdowns? Play stops every 10 seconds, it like they flick it back to the quater back, he tosses it to some guy, the guy catches it and then everyone has a breather. It is incredibly slow, yes occassionally they sprint but I wouldnt say much cardio vascular stength is needed.

All i'm saying is, how many nations play American football? How many play Rugby? (I'd wager a few more play more interesting and fast paced game that is Rugby Union, or even Union's ugly brother that's Rugby League.)

PS. Did you know one of the, if not THE most fast paced games in the world is Rugby Sevens?

PPS. Apologies for being off topic.


.... TO THE BACK ROOM Oh and I did get over the top but real football is still the best

[Sisco Americanus]

American football is an incredibly complex and nuanced game. I sincerely believe that is the only reason it isn't more popular world-wide. I think that the people who frequent this forum in particular could come to really love the sport simply because of the strategy of it. Indeed, famed Ohio State University coach Woody Hayes, a WW2 veteran, conceived of his play schemes in terms of classic military strategy and maneuver.

Let me see if I can put the game in terms all of you can appreciate-- Medieval Total War. Let's take the defensive squad of a football team:

The defensive linemen (the big guys with one hand in the dirt) are like your spearmen units-- they clog things up and maintain the front line where it is, and try not to allow any holes to form in the front.

The Linebackers (the slightly smaller-- if you can call 250 lbs. of muscle and bone small-- guys standing behind the defensive linement): these guys are like your swordsman units-- these guys fill any holes that open up in your defensive front, or are used as "blitzers," attacking either up the middle or around the flank to get to the ball carrier.

The defensive backs-- the smallest and fastest guys on the defense, these are your cavalry (you can even break it down into light (cornerbacks) and heavy (safeties) cavalry). Extremely fast and athletic, these are your playmakers (or breakers, as the case may be). Sending one of these guys on a blitz at the proper time can completely blow up a play. Also, their mobility allows them to protect the flanks and fill holes quickly to slow down an advance while reinforcements are en route, but you can't expect them to slog it out in the trenches all the time.

Of course, the exact responsibilities of the different positions vary with each team, scheme, and situation, but you get the idea. This is just the defensive side of the ball, and I didn't even get into pass coverages. Modern NFL offenses are even more complex, and teams vary greatly in their philosophies and strategies; for example, the St. Louis Rams are like a Muslim faction in MTW (emphasizing speed and precision to strike at the opponent quickly and decisively), while a "smashmouth" offense like the Pittsburgh Steelers is more like a Catholic Faction (using brute force to gradually grind the opponent into submission).

Anyway, American football is something you really have to learn about to appreciate in any capacity beyond enjoying the chili-cheese dip at the Super Bowl party. Once you do understand it more fully, I think you'll realize why it's by far the most popular sport in the U.S.

This is not to say that Soccer isn't great as well. I love soccer, and I can't wait for the World Cup. It's just that... well... American football is better. :san_grin:

By the way, the collisions in the NFL are essentially like getting into a 30 mph care wreck-- without the car. Those guys would die if they weren't wearing pads.

FYI: the reference to 300+ pound men running a certain distance in sub-5 seconds is to the 40 yard dash. "The forty" has become the standard measure of a football player's speed. If someone is said to run a 4.4 forty, that means they run the 40 yard dash in 4.4 seconds (extraordinarely fast). I don't think I could run a sub-5 second 40 at a slender 160 lbs, so for a 300 pound behemoth to do it is impressive indeed.

[frogbeastegg]

:froggy examines her special hairpins, wondering which will suit the job best. She makes her selection, aims and throws:

https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/twsmilies/movedg.gif

Football and a tiny little bit of games in the frontroom, versus a trampled conversation and forced return to just games here. Seems fair enough to move it, even before I say I don't like football, English or American :tongueg:

[Strike For The South]

There is a new thread in the backroom for any who wish to continue

[Beirut]

Seeing as the Good Lady Frostbeastegg has moved this here, be careful with your nasty nationalisms. No wars in the Frontroom. :san_wink:

[hellenes]

American football is an incredibly complex and nuanced game. I sincerely believe that is the only reason it isn't more popular world-wide. I think that the people who frequent this forum in particular could come to really love the sport simply because of the strategy of it. Indeed, famed Ohio State University coach Woody Hayes, a WW2 veteran, conceived of his play schemes in terms of classic military strategy and maneuver.

Let me see if I can put the game in terms all of you can appreciate-- Medieval Total War. Let's take the defensive squad of a football team:

The defensive linemen (the big guys with one hand in the dirt) are like your spearmen units-- they clog things up and maintain the front line where it is, and try not to allow any holes to form in the front.

The Linebackers (the slightly smaller-- if you can call 250 lbs. of muscle and bone small-- guys standing behind the defensive linement): these guys are like your swordsman units-- these guys fill any holes that open up in your defensive front, or are used as "blitzers," attacking either up the middle or around the flank to get to the ball carrier.

The defensive backs-- the smallest and fastest guys on the defense, these are your cavalry (you can even break it down into light (cornerbacks) and heavy (safeties) cavalry). Extremely fast and athletic, these are your playmakers (or breakers, as the case may be). Sending one of these guys on a blitz at the proper time can completely blow up a play. Also, their mobility allows them to protect the flanks and fill holes quickly to slow down an advance while reinforcements are en route, but you can't expect them to slog it out in the trenches all the time.

Of course, the exact responsibilities of the different positions vary with each team, scheme, and situation, but you get the idea. This is just the defensive side of the ball, and I didn't even get into pass coverages. Modern NFL offenses are even more complex, and teams vary greatly in their philosophies and strategies; for example, the St. Louis Rams are like a Muslim faction in MTW (emphasizing speed and precision to strike at the opponent quickly and decisively), while a "smashmouth" offense like the Pittsburgh Steelers is more like a Catholic Faction (using brute force to gradually grind the opponent into submission).

Anyway, American football is something you really have to learn about to appreciate in any capacity beyond enjoying the chili-cheese dip at the Super Bowl party. Once you do understand it more fully, I think you'll realize why it's by far the most popular sport in the U.S.

This is not to say that Soccer isn't great as well. I love soccer, and I can't wait for the World Cup. It's just that... well... American football is better. :san_grin:

By the way, the collisions in the NFL are essentially like getting into a 30 mph care wreck-- without the car. Those guys would die if they weren't wearing pads.

FYI: the reference to 300+ pound men running a certain distance in sub-5 seconds is to the 40 yard dash. "The forty" has become the standard measure of a football player's speed. If someone is said to run a 4.4 forty, that means they run the 40 yard dash in 4.4 seconds (extraordinarely fast). I don't think I could run a sub-5 second 40 at a slender 160 lbs, so for a 300 pound behemoth to do it is impressive indeed.

Football doesnt require brute force or any extrordinary physicall natural blessing...
Thats why its more popular worldwide ANYONE can be a star,
its that magic that takes BILLIONS of people on this planet for one month (June) each 4 years, its even more popular than the Olympics,
thats why they refuse to include the full National teams in the Olympic football sport...
Football is the most popular and the most amazing sport since the dawn of mankind...

Hellenes

[Sisco Americanus]

Football doesnt require brute force or any extrordinary physicall natural blessing...
Thats why its more popular worldwide ANYONE can be a star,

Actually, I'd say it's more popular worldwide because (A) it's an extremely simple game and is much older, and (B) it's extremely inexpensive to play-- all you need is a ball and some open space.

... and if you really think international soccer stars aren't extremely gifted athletes, well... we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Red Peasant]

Hi,
Anyway now back to my experience of the superbowl. First of all what the hell is with all the breakdowns? Play stops every 10 seconds, it like they flick it back to the quater back, he tosses it to some guy, the guy catches it and then everyone has a breather. It is incredibly slow, yes occassionally they sprint but I wouldnt say much cardio vascular stength is needed.

All i'm saying is, how many nations play American football? How many play Rugby? (I'd wager a few more play more interesting and fast paced game that is Rugby Union, or even Union's ugly brother that's Rugby League.)



I like American Football and appreciate its tactical nuances and explosive power plays, but Rugby of either code is a more complete game requiring much greater reserves of physical endurance as well as strategic planning, tactical acumen and other physical attributes. Now RU is ok but the ball is in play much more in RL, and more than in an average 'soccer' game (god, I hate calling it that!). RU is very stop-start itself, although it has improved since becoming professional and adopting RL tactics and coaching techniques. I admit that RL is, in certain respects, a simpler game, but that's its beauty...like chess.

[Geoffrey S]

As it seems CA isnt the only one staying as a beakon of realism in the darkness of dumped down clickfest basebuiding toys.
Wha... what? Realism? Excuse me while I eat one of my roast pigs with my screaming women, gentlemen.

[Viking]

Wha... what? Realism? Excuse me while I eat one of my roast pigs with my screaming women, gentlemen.

There`s a difference between realism and historical accuracy. RTW got plenty of realism, whereas there might be a lack of historical accuracy.

[Ianofsmeg16]

I call it 'real' football out of nationalism, not logic. :knight:
Ok that quotes goin in the sig!

nice one GC:san_grin:

[Geoffrey S]

There`s a difference between realism and historical accuracy. RTW got plenty of realism, whereas there might be a lack of historical accuracy.
Hardly. It's well-designed and rewards skill, but realism is something entirely different. Units react instantly, no supply lines, lack of NCOs, wrong movement speeds on the campaign map, unrealistic build times, etc.; the point I want to make is that although the TW series of games is well-designed and adapts the reality into the game in an admirable way, it remains a game and certainly not a realistic representation of the reality of warfare in the relevant timeperiods, neither on a tactical or strategic level. Beakon of realism CA is not, nor have they claimed to be such. Admittedly I didn't illustrate this properly in my earlier post, preferring the cheap-shot way out.

[hellenes]

Hardly. It's well-designed and rewards skill, but realism is something entirely different. Units react instantly, no supply lines, lack of NCOs, wrong movement speeds on the campaign map, unrealistic build times, etc.; the point I want to make is that although the TW series of games is well-designed and adapts the reality into the game in an admirable way, it remains a game and certainly not a realistic representation of the reality of warfare in the relevant timeperiods, neither on a tactical or strategic level. Beakon of realism CA is not, nor have they claimed to be such. Admittedly I didn't illustrate this properly in my earlier post, preferring the cheap-shot way out.

Agreed.
But there is a saying: Amongst the Blind the One eyed rules...
The melee warfare "RTS" genre is so simplified and dumbed down with the whole basebuilding resource collecting peasand gang fighting that CA looks almost a Battle simulator in comparison...

Hellenes

[Geoffrey S]

Well, I find the dumbed down criticism of the genre somewhat unreasonable, but I can see where you're coming from and personally don't enjoy the resource gathering style of RTS anyway; thankfully there seem to be more and more strategy games focusing less on resource gathering or which contain other interesting elements. Still, just to reiterate my point in your 'dumbed down' topic in Arena:

It is what you want, but not necessarily what a majority of players want. Just as there are highly realistic shooting games (Swat 4, for instance) as opposed to the regular shooting games (Doom 3), some players want immersion and tactical credibility in their strategy games such as HOI2 whereas others place more emphasis on the 'game' side of things. It's a matter of tastes and what you want from a game, but it's hardly fair or reasonable to consider types of games you personally don't enjoy as 'dumbed down'; that does the developers and players a disservice.

[Viking]

Hardly. It's well-designed and rewards skill, but realism is something entirely different. Units react instantly, no supply lines, lack of NCOs, wrong movement speeds on the campaign map, unrealistic build times, etc.; the point I want to make is that although the TW series of games is well-designed and adapts the reality into the game in an admirable way, it remains a game and certainly not a realistic representation of the reality of warfare in the relevant timeperiods, neither on a tactical or strategic level. Beakon of realism CA is not, nor have they claimed to be such. Admittedly I didn't illustrate this properly in my earlier post, preferring the cheap-shot way out.

Hmmm..well. The strategical part is missing some realism and some parts in the battles too, ok. But the physics in the battles, is quite realistic.

[The Stranger]

Fear your caps! Oh mighty representative of the oh-so-eloquent European peoples! I bow before your soft tongue and sharp wit!

:san_laugh:

sorry to dissapoint you but im not european nor english :san_laugh:

[Geoffrey S]

Hmmm..well. The strategical part is missing some realism and some parts in the battles too, ok. But the physics in the battles, is quite realistic.
The charge effect on pikes, the fantastic leaping foottroops? Point is, while it's more realistic when it comes to the tactics of the period compared to a large numbers of the competition, it's still far removed from reality and certainly just a game.