View Full Version : Faith healers
i have read some stuff about faith healing recently and I wanted to ask around here what you guys think. Personally I think it's not possible.
InsaneApache
12-02-2005, 13:41
What!!!! ~:eek: the laying on of hands is a load of old bollox and a right con job? Who said that? ~:confused:
Ohh...that's right ..... I did ~D :hide:
Of course not.
Might help people cope because of all the human contact plus the placedbo effect etc.
But can't cure you of anything.
If anyone votes "yes", please contact me.........I have this great bridge to sell and I can make you a killer deal on it ~D
Until I see it, I don`t believe. However, I cannot vote in the poll because we cannot know.
Of course the placebo effect is generally useful. The mental as well as the physical strength of the patient can be critical to recovery. As a cure in itself though faith healing, like so many "new age" remedies is a useless money sink.
You should never underestimate the placebo effect. I have experienced it myself.
I have an aggressive arthritis (fortunately I am still relatively young and I only have it in my toes… still).
When I studied in Australia I had to take pills 3 times a day to “survive”. When I got back home this continued a year. Then it lessened and I barely take any pills today.
I still have bad days where I need to take them.
One such particular day, the aching was bad and I took a pill, so I thought. The effect came soon as it always do and I could finally sit down with a book.
My wife came out of the kitchen and asked why I had just left the pill on the table top; “You know those are dangerous for the kids…”
I had left the pill and had just drunk/drank/drunken a glass of water.
Knowing that the ache will just continue and continue without those pills, I was kind of baffled.
My wife who is studying to become a pharmaceutical chemist told me about the placebo effect and how it miraculously works.
I did believe I took the pill but the evidence lay in my wife’s hand. I was healed by faith.
I haven’t taken a pill since because there has not been a need to (one month and counting).
[edit]: I did vote no by the way... the self proclaimed healers are quacks.
The placebo effect can’t be transmitted; it is only the individual’s own faith that can heal that individual.
[edit2]: english ~:rolleyes:
yesdachi
12-02-2005, 14:56
I say no. However I believe that it might give the person in need of healing a positive attitude and that will generally help healing, but I don’t think it would cure anything. Of course it often builds a false sense of security and may cause the one in need of healing to not seek real treatment that could indeed cure them. I would imagine many people die because they put their health in “gods” hands.:bow:
Kralizec
12-02-2005, 15:42
No. Faith healers are at best completely useless, and at the worst they implant their gullible customers with false hopes of remedy. A couple of years back a Dutch faith healer called Jomanda convinced a Dutch TV star (Silvia Millecam) not to get medical treatment for her cancer (IIRC Jomanda told her that she didn't even have cancer), but instead rely on her healing power to do the trick. Then she died. The Inspection for Health Care tried to put her behind bars, but failed.
DemonArchangel
12-02-2005, 16:34
Ah, the good old placebo effect. Sadly though, most people actually believe that some "god" or whatever will cure them, which is probably the biggest load of "medical" bullshit out there today. A positive attidue always helps. "God" doesn't.
I really don't understand why rational people misunderstand the significance of the placebo effect. It is a point of dismissal, when in fact it is the cheapest and most widely effective cure-all ever known.
Say the placebo effect accounts for 10% of all cures. Therefore any rational chronically sick person should go and try at least 10 alternative therapies. Swim with dolphins, stick a magic crystal up your *$&% whatever -if you are on a 10 to 1 shot to be cured, go for it.
Kralizec
12-02-2005, 16:53
For faith healing to work as a placebo, the patient must first believe that the faith healer is not a crook. But if you believe in such things, you could fall in the hands of faith healers who are incompetent or don't even care about your health. It could lead to people dismissing the advice of real doctors because the faith healer tells them too. If you want to employ alternative medicine for their possible placebo effects (wich I acknowledge might work on some), it should be administered through official channels, preferably the doctor himself. We should not let desperate patients fall for crooks with no medical education and who don't know the first thing what they're talking about.
At Southampton Solent University (formerly an institute), England you can get a degree in animal healing, which is putting your hands on an animal and pretending you're connecting "energies". It's amazing what the education system is coming to. I say healing is a load of rubbish, though I do think you can convince yourself through self-determination out of something. With things like acupuncture, on Braniac:Science Abuse (good TV show ^_^) they managed to make a man give up smoking with pretend acupuncture which was using a geometry set and a man from the local chinese. The man gave up smoking, but these results could have been faked. Acupuncture and other such treatments give people the sense that they can give up/get better because they are being helped, and gives them the force of will required to get better/give up.
Geoffrey S
12-02-2005, 18:06
No, but some sort of research into the subject is necessary.
doc_bean
12-02-2005, 18:07
Acupuncture and other such treatments give people the sense that they can give up/get better because they are being helped, and gives them the force of will required to get better/give up.
There's a discussion about acupuncture in the martial arts thread. It seems that acupuncture can have an effect besides the placebo effect.
But curing aids ? Nah.
When I have a headache my wife lays hands on me and massages my head - and the headache goes away.
~:cool:
Marcellus
12-03-2005, 00:59
Can faith healers cure people of disease such as AIDS ?
Yes 0 0%
No 31 100.00%
Voters: 31. You have already voted on this poll
I think the results say everything that has to be said.
Soulforged
12-03-2005, 01:23
No. It doesn't heal, in the best case the placebo effect can decrease it significantly and help you to convince yourself that it's healed, but it's all about the power of sugestion. Faith doesn't do a squat...
Faith doesn't do a squat...
Oh but I have faith that I can squat...~:eek:
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-03-2005, 01:29
~D I voted yes for a laugh.~D
The_Doctor
12-03-2005, 01:32
Laughter is the best medicine?
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-03-2005, 01:48
I have faith in that.
~:cheers:
Yes 3 7.50%
No 37 92.50%
How worrying.
Still, I see a business opportuinity.
LeftEyeNine
12-03-2005, 17:21
There was once an experiment that a group of people suffering depression were gathered. Then they were split into two groups. One group took anti-depressants actually while the other group was told to be taking antidepressants but were given placebo instead.
At the end of a particular period, the healing ratio of both groups were rated the same. Believing that you will recover with true faith works. Believe it.
Marcellus
12-03-2005, 17:50
There was once an experiment that a group of people suffering depression were gathered. Then they were split into two groups. One group took anti-depressants actually while the other group was told to be taking antidepressants but were given placebo instead.
At the end of a particular period, the healing ratio of both groups were rated the same. Believing that you will recover with true faith works. Believe it.
Against problems such as depression, the placebo effect might work sometimes. But against diseases caused by microorganisms, no. You don't kill the HIV virus just by thinking that you can.
InsaneApache
12-03-2005, 18:01
Amen to that. :bow:
LeftEyeNine
12-03-2005, 18:07
Against problems such as depression, the placebo effect might just work sometimes. But against actual diseases, no. You don't kill the HIV virus just by thinking that you can.
Faith and its forms (like religion) strengthens your body's immune system. I don't think you can kill HIV with thinking and staying away from therapies either. But it helps with endurance that is almost proved.
InsaneApache
12-03-2005, 18:30
Faith and its forms (like religion) strengthens your body's immune system. I don't think you can kill HIV with thinking and staying away from therapies either. But it helps with endurance that is almost proved.
Well as they say, a miss is a good as a mile.
Faith and its forms (like religion) strengthens your body's immune system. I don't think you can kill HIV with thinking and staying away from therapies either. But it helps with endurance that is almost proved.
What they are missing is that faith - will often keep you from getting the disease in the first place. :bow:
Strike For The South
12-03-2005, 18:39
*puts hand on head*
And Jesus God almighty shall set you free
*random old person falls and starts having convulsions most likely due to the shock of SFTS hitting him in the head*
Just A Girl
12-03-2005, 18:44
Some people get better with no help from faith healers or dr's
some people stay ill with help from faith healers and doctors.
I dont think theres any Magical power that helps,
the pacibo affect could always make you Feel better,
but that dosent mean you are better,
I doubt faith healers could cure aids or cancer or the such,
but some say they did,
Many people in africa have been reported to rid them selfs of aids like one would rid them selfs of the cold, (no cure for the cold either)
atleast 1 documented case where a person cured them selfs "by being posative".
So i dunno,
I personaly Dont think faith healers work,
I do beleve that the placebo afect is a good thing though so there not a problem,
But really Its much more likley that some 1's imune system rid them of an illness,
Than for a faith healer to have.
Having said that,
If you think it works go 4 it.
p.s
A placebo isnt faith,
its just that you fooled your self in to thinking Your toe no longer hurts,
or those pills do make me feel better after all,
thats just accidental mind over matter,
Not a religious miracle
Soulforged
12-03-2005, 19:07
Faith and its forms (like religion) strengthens your body's immune system. I don't think you can kill HIV with thinking and staying away from therapies either. But it helps with endurance that is almost proved.
What are you talking about? Faith has nothing to do with the organs and biology, it cannot alter organic objects...~:confused:
What they are missing is that faith - will often keep you from getting the disease in the first place.And how will that be Red, believing that premarital sex is bad or that all sex is bad...~:rolleyes:
LeftEyeNine
12-03-2005, 23:16
Soulforged
Words of a psychologist :
"You know what an emotion is ? You think it is your heart or something ? It is all about the chemical interactions in your brain."
Your words are the same as :
"You see the sun is born in the east and it moves and there it sets in the west ? How the heck can you say that it is earth turning around it ?"
All the problem is that I am not a scientist that have not the knowledge to prove it to you in experimental terms. Take the experiment I mentioned previous posts above into account - that was a scientific experiment.
However, I do not have to prove out anything, faith is all about feeling, why force one if he/she does not feel or does not wish to ? You have my respect after all :bow:
A.Saturnus
12-04-2005, 00:32
Against problems such as depression, the placebo effect might work sometimes. But against actual diseases, no. You don't kill the HIV virus just by thinking that you can.
I´d appreciate it if you wouldn´t make a distinction between depression and "actual diseases". Depression is a hormonal imbalance that can have very serious - even fatal - consequences. It is one of the major health concerns in the Western countries.
BTW, all anti-depressant drugs must undergo double-blind tests against placebos in which they have to preform better than placebos to be legalized.
What are you talking about? Faith has nothing to do with the organs and biology, it cannot alter organic objects...
Faith can influence the release of hormones which can do all sorts of things to organic objects.
Marcellus
12-04-2005, 01:53
I´d appreciate it if you wouldn´t make a distinction between depression and "actual diseases". Depression is a hormonal imbalance that can have very serious - even fatal - consequences. It is one of the major health concerns in the Western countries.
Gah! Sorry, I didn't mean to write 'actual disease' - I meant to type something along the lines of 'infection' or 'microorganism caused disease', but I wasn't thinking as I was typing. I shall edit my original post. Thanks for pointing that out.
Soulforged
12-04-2005, 02:02
However, I do not have to prove out anything, faith is all about feeling, why force one if he/she does not feel or does not wish to ? You have my respect after all :bow:You've my respect also (why is that every conversation in the Backroom has to turn in a personal matter...whatever). But you didn't present that study to me, if you do I'll be able to see if I can at least "buy" it, that's all.
An expert Psychologist has come however:
Faith can influence the release of hormones which can do all sorts of things to organic objects.I did said that the power of sugestion works, didn't I...However is a different thing to put faith as a direct causal of the stimulus. One could say that it's the same auto-sugestion that achieves that, not faith.
And how will that be Red, believing that premarital sex is bad or that all sex is bad...~:rolleyes:
Now if I have to explain it to you - then your to young to know...~:eek:
There was once an experiment that a group of people suffering depression were gathered. Then they were split into two groups. One group took anti-depressants actually while the other group was told to be taking antidepressants but were given placebo instead.
At the end of a particular period, the healing ratio of both groups were rated the same. Believing that you will recover with true faith works. Believe it.
Err... before even being allowed on the market all potential medicines, and that includes anti-depressants, have to undergo randomized, double blind testing to prove that they have more effect than a placebo.
The problem with antidepressants is that their effectivity is not that great, and that a considerable anti-depressant effect can be achieved with just a placebo, even in double blind tests. Some scientists therefor believe that antidepressants do not work, and that the relatively small differences seen in the clinical trails are the result of human (often it is possible to determine whether a patient has been given antidepressent or placebo by paying attention to the side-effects, so the tests are not double-blind) or methodological (problems with sleep and anxiety are part of the scale on which depression is measured, so any drug with sedative properties will "improve" the depression) errors.
To get back to the topic, faith does work. Stress increases cortisol levels in our blood, which in turn inhibits our imune system. This is probably a survival function: an animal under pressure cannot afford to be weakened by an inflammation, so the body puts it "on hold" until the danger is no longer immediate. However, chronic stress leaves us vulnerable to pathogens as our immune system is permanently supressed. The idea that you are doing something about a disease, whether by persuading the doctor to give you a pill or by visiting your favourite herbalist, helps relieve stress, thus lowering cortisol and activating our immune system.
So, faith helps. But I truly doubt if it is able to stop such a powerful pathogen as HIV.
Mind you, what I wrote above about stress and the immune system is rather simplistic. There is a lot more going on, and most of it we don't understand.
A.Saturnus
12-04-2005, 19:38
I did said that the power of sugestion works, didn't I...However is a different thing to put faith as a direct causal of the stimulus. One could say that it's the same auto-sugestion that achieves that, not faith.
That´s a matter of point of view, but if you grant that stress (to take up Luden´s lead) can influence health, then faith can to.
Soulforged
12-04-2005, 20:12
Now if I have to explain it to you - then your to young to know...~:eek:
You know what I mean: tired priest's speeches...~D.
That´s a matter of point of view, but if you grant that stress (to take up Luden´s lead) can influence health, then faith can to.Yes but, correct me if I'm wrong, stress has an organic origin, faith is purely psychological, so stress can be an inmediat causal while faith is mediat, wich means that there has to be some organic element between the element "faith" and the reaction "X".
Stress also causes problems to all, it doesn't matter if you want to deny it or not. However I could take away faith of the equation and the reaction "X" could happen anyway because it's not a direct causal, the same could happen to a person that it's not influenceable and denies the power of faith, making the suggestion null, wich does not means however that reaction "X" could happen or not.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that most of you are missing the point. It's not the question whether or not placebos help out, but if Faith Healers (in my understanding people that lay their hands on you and pretend as if theyre feeling something) help.
No, they do not.
The so-called healed are simply placed in a hynotic trance, that lasts for a few days. It as well known mind-control trick used to fleece suckers of their hard-earned money, and often people who can least afford it too.
Papewaio
12-05-2005, 01:23
There was once an experiment that a group of people suffering depression were gathered. Then they were split into two groups. One group took anti-depressants actually while the other group was told to be taking antidepressants but were given placebo instead.
At the end of a particular period, the healing ratio of both groups were rated the same. Believing that you will recover with true faith works. Believe it.
Incorrect interpretation of data.
What this study showed is that the particular anti-depressants had no more effect then placebo group therefore the chemical touted as an anti-depressant was not one.
It is not showing that true faith works, it just shows that brand of anti-depressants is not a viable choice.
Papewaio
12-05-2005, 01:26
Mind you, what I wrote above about stress and the immune system is rather simplistic. There is a lot more going on, and most of it we don't understand.
Interesting research on that one:
Stress 'makes you sick': research (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17462799-29277,00.html)
AUSTRALIAN scientists have proved what many people have suspected for years: stress makes you sick.
Researchers at Sydney's Garvan Institute have discovered how a hormone known as neuropeptide Y (NPY), often released during times of stress, can prevent our immune system functioning properly.The institute's Associate Professors Fabienne Mackay and Herbert Herzog said their findings, published in today's edition of the Journal of Experimental Medicine, prove a link between the brain and the immune system.
The research paves the way for understanding and preventing stress-related colds, flu, depression and even cancer, they said.
"Until now there has mostly been circumstantial evidence of a link between the brain and the immune system, but now we have that connection," Prof Mackay said.
"During periods of stress, nerves release a lot of NPY and it gets into the bloodstream, where it inhibits the cells in the immune system that look out for and destroy pathogens (bacteria and viruses) in the body."
LeftEyeNine
12-05-2005, 01:46
Incorrect interpretation of data.
What this study showed is that the particular anti-depressants had no more effect then placebo group therefore the chemical touted as an anti-depressant was not one.
It is not showing that true faith works, it just shows that brand of anti-depressants is not a viable choice.
That was not my interpretation - that was what the news was all about.
And you may be in a pitfall interpreting the experiment that way, may not you ?
Papewaio
12-05-2005, 02:12
Hardly in a pitfall.
The way to prove that a drug is an anti-depressant is that it has to pass double-blind trials. So the test for an anti-depressant is that it has to be more effective then a placebo.
If it does not beat a placebo that means the drug has no pharmaceutical effect. It does not mean that the placebo effect is faith based, it just shows that you can make yourself feel better by thinking that you feel better... just that some drugs may do an even better job at it.
Placebo and depression
A brain-imaging study (Leuchter, 2002) found that depressed patients who responded to the placebo effect showed changes in cerebral blood flow, which were different to the changes in brain function seen in patients who responded to anti-depressant medication. Other studies such as (Khan, 2000) have shown that up to 75% of the effectiveness of anti-depressant medication is due to the placebo-effect rather than the treatment itself.
LeftEyeNine
12-05-2005, 02:57
..it just shows that you can make yourself feel better by thinking that you feel better..
You wisely choose your words ~:) You just defined the faith in simplistic terms.
Papewaio
12-05-2005, 03:08
Well not everyone believes in a higher power, it can be self belief or just plain egotistical people that have a more postive placebo effect. Atheists also have the placebo effect work on them.
Placebo is faith in the little pill you are taking will heal you... it is not the same as Faith in the form of religion... although there might be a link that people who are inclined to one are more inclined to the other.
LeftEyeNine
12-05-2005, 03:16
I took the term "faith" in all terms expanding from its religious referrals as well.
By the way, lazy me just noticed that the poll question was :
Can faith healers cure people of disease such as AIDS ?
My answer ? No. An absolute one. No way of it being the sole element of curing AIDS. Medicine stands out there for such a pathogen.. Maybe a supportive element but not solely itself.
A.Saturnus
12-05-2005, 23:01
Yes but, correct me if I'm wrong, stress has an organic origin, faith is purely psychological, so stress can be an inmediat causal while faith is mediat, wich means that there has to be some organic element between the element "faith" and the reaction "X".
Stress also causes problems to all, it doesn't matter if you want to deny it or not. However I could take away faith of the equation and the reaction "X" could happen anyway because it's not a direct causal, the same could happen to a person that it's not influenceable and denies the power of faith, making the suggestion null, wich does not means however that reaction "X" could happen or not.
I´d argue that everything psychological has an organic origin (or what else, unorganic?) but that would lead to far here. Stress is clearly a psychological concept. It is not defined (as far as it is defined at all) in terms of fysiology or endocrinology but behavioural and emotional conditions. It can not be equated with cortisol level. Stress is a psychological concept that can influence the hormonal circuit. Likewise faith is a psychological concept that can do such. It is likely that stress acts in a more direct (and stronger) way than faith, but both are of the same category.
Soulforged
12-06-2005, 05:51
I´d argue that everything psychological has an organic origin (or what else, unorganic?) but that would lead to far here. Stress is clearly a psychological concept. It is not defined (as far as it is defined at all) in terms of fysiology or endocrinology but behavioural and emotional conditions. It can not be equated with cortisol level. Stress is a psychological concept that can influence the hormonal circuit. Likewise faith is a psychological concept that can do such. It is likely that stress acts in a more direct (and stronger) way than faith, but both are of the same category.
Well thanks then.:bow:
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 06:25
.
Yes, if you meet a true healer. The chances are lower than that of the "yes" votes though.
Antidepressants should go to the flush. It's ridiculous that they are legal, let alone prescribed. ~:rolleyes:
.
I don't know. Can they? Isn't the whole point of faith healing supposed to make it a miracle? So...if it's a miracle, there are no boundaries.
I´d argue that everything psychological has an organic origin (or what else, unorganic?) but that would lead to far here. Stress is clearly a psychological concept. It is not defined (as far as it is defined at all) in terms of fysiology or endocrinology but behavioural and emotional conditions. It can not be equated with cortisol level. Stress is a psychological concept that can influence the hormonal circuit. Likewise faith is a psychological concept that can do such. It is likely that stress acts in a more direct (and stronger) way than faith, but both are of the same category. You have it backward though. The origin of stress is organic, not the other way around.
LeftEyeNine
12-06-2005, 12:55
I don't know. Can they? Isn't the whole point of faith healing supposed to make it a miracle? So...if it's a miracle, there are no boundaries.
Nah. I don't think so. Faith may work like a homeopathic solution to your problem as well. Healing it slowly but doing it absolutely.
yesdachi
12-06-2005, 15:52
.Antidepressants should go to the flush. It's ridiculous that they are legal, let alone prescribed. ~:rolleyes:
.
Why are you opposed to antidepressants? I think if used properly they are ok.~:)
When my step-dad passed away my mom was having a difficult time and went to counseling and was prescribed an antidepressant, she was on it for a few months and doesn’t need it any more. There are some that misuse them but that is the case with almost all drugs.:bow:
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 18:16
.
I used one of the most popular ones (on prescription) for over a year. Just makes things worse. :rtwno:
They do have some use though; a very close friend's mother has recently been diagnosed with cancer causing extreme pains around her stomach. She's being given antidepressants to help recover from what the pains cause.
In somatic cases can they be of use. :yes:
.
yesdachi
12-06-2005, 20:31
.
I used one of the most popular ones (on prescription) for over a year. Just makes things worse. :rtwno:
Bummer, I hope things are better.:bow:
A.Saturnus
12-06-2005, 23:39
You have it backward though. The origin of stress is organic, not the other way around.
I don´t have it backwards. Actually I have aknowledged what you said in my post. I just did not elaborate on it. But that stress is organic does not mean it cannot have organic effects.
I used one of the most popular ones (on prescription) for over a year. Just makes things worse.
I´m sorry for you but there are thousands of people who are alive thanks to anti-depressants.
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 23:45
Bummer, I hope things are better.:bow:
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I hope so. ~;)
.
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 23:47
.
I´m sorry for you but there are thousands of people who are alive thanks to anti-depressants.
They do have some use though; a very close friend's mother has recently been diagnosed with cancer causing extreme pains around her stomach. She's being given antidepressants to help recover from what the pains cause.
In somatic cases can they be of use. :yes:
:bow:
.
.
I used one of the most popular ones (on prescription) for over a year. Just makes things worse. :rtwno:
They do have some use though; a very close friend's mother has recently been diagnosed with cancer causing extreme pains around her stomach. She's being given antidepressants to help recover from what the pains cause.
In somatic cases can they be of use. :yes:
.
I do wonder if there is such a thing as somatic depression. AFAIK all depressions are alike from a neurochemical point of view.
I grant that antidepressants are not exactly the finest medicine known to man, but they do work to some extent.
Mind you, I am now taking lectures from a proffesor who has expressed serious doubts about current scientific theories on depression. One of the most commonly used classes antidepressants, the SSRI's, work by prolonging serotonergic stimulation, but my lecturer has done experiments indicating that serotonergic depletion is not the cause (or at least the only cause) of depression. Which implies SSRI's are garbage. However, he is very careful about stating that, as the evidence is not all on his side and he does not have an alternative hypothesis.
Mouzafphaerre
12-07-2005, 21:30
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I didn't imply there could be "somatic depression". In the example, a somatic disease causes extreme pains that have utter impact on the patient's morale. Antidepressants are called for help and they are reportedly working for now.
Bugging with the neurochemical or hormonal balance of the body won't help with psychological problems, that's all I have to say.
.
A.Saturnus
12-07-2005, 22:34
Mind you, I am now taking lectures from a proffesor who has expressed serious doubts about current scientific theories on depression. One of the most commonly used classes antidepressants, the SSRI's, work by prolonging serotonergic stimulation, but my lecturer has done experiments indicating that serotonergic depletion is not the cause (or at least the only cause) of depression. Which implies SSRI's are garbage. However, he is very careful about stating that, as the evidence is not all on his side and he does not have an alternative hypothesis.
Although we´re going off topic, I think that proffesor is right, at least in parts. There´s enough evidence to say that serotonergic depletion can´t be the cause or at least not the whole story. The psychical effect of SSRI´s appears after a period of weeks whereas their serotonergic stimulation appears minutes after intake. The serotonine-hypothesis has a serious problem to explain that gap.
However, one should keep in mind that SSRI´s haven´t been chosen as antidepressiva because of the serotonine-hypothesis but the serotonine-hypothesis was established because SSRI´s (and similar drugs) work antidepressant. The antidepressant effect is a statistical finding. To explain it is something else than to know that it exists.
Bugging with the neurochemical or hormonal balance of the body won't help with psychological problems, that's all I have to say.
Depression is what I meant. Please consider that depression is itself a hormonal imbalance that kills millions of people. Since the chance of survival increases when taking antidepressiva I don´t see an alternative.
Mouzafphaerre
12-08-2005, 00:50
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Depression is what I meant. Please consider that depression is itself a hormonal imbalance that kills millions of people. Since the chance of survival increases when taking antidepressiva I don´t see an alternative.
I have no problem with them being used as a means of support, as long as they are not seen and treated as the ultimate cure of anything. ~;)
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Nah. I don't think so. Faith may work like a homeopathic solution to your problem as well. Healing it slowly but doing it absolutely.
I didn't mean the 'inner strength' of one's personal faith, but rather the act of being healed by an evangelist. However, one might chalk up your point as also being a miracle, since the it comes, however, indirectly, from the deity in question.
My point was thus: If I'm Superman, can I win the Olympic 100 metre dash? Of course I can; I'm faster than a friggin' locomotive. Faith healing, as an ideal, has no bounds - it's a miracle. Therefore, it can heal anything, provided, well, that it's not bogus (I think that's where the big problem lies).
LeftEyeNine
12-08-2005, 16:40
I didn't mean the 'inner strength' of one's personal faith,
Ok then, that's what I get from "faith healing" :bow:
The world is not all about what we can perceive. Absolute knowledge will be avoided from the humanity says Qoran. However, this does not mean that there is much playground for charlatans.
For the anti-depressants part,
Well, these kind of medicines generally help you build a "shell" around you so that you do not think over and over about what disturbs for too long - that is an effect that comes into action around 6 months of regular dosage. As long as it is not a severe organic malfunction with your brain, the rest of the healing process is up to you to discover and eliminate what was lying under the iceberg - that is generally the deposit which you did not notice while it was piling up throughout your life.
It takes time to determine what causes a depression actually - generally you confuse what the ignitor is and where the root really lays.
However one should not rely on antidepressants for all the "living" process, it's obviously a better way to attempt coping with it by "thinking".
Byzantine Prince
12-08-2005, 16:45
If anything, faith in the supernatural corrupts the mind and eventually destroys the body as well. It has crippled human beings since the beggining, and needs to be exterminated. We need to be able to ccept the world as it is not as some fantasy world with overlords called angels and a big leader.
Healing does not hapen by accident or miracle. I feel bad for people who think that, because they have already lost the battle, by their own doing.
If anything, faith in the supernatural corrupts the mind and eventually destroys the body as well. It has crippled human beings since the beggining, and needs to be exterminated. We need to be able to ccept the world as it is not as some fantasy world with overlords called angels and a big leader.
You would make the weak strong? What's the difference between looking to supernatural and looking at a pile of rocks?
A.Saturnus
12-08-2005, 23:41
I have no problem with them being used as a means of support, as long as they are not seen and treated as the ultimate cure of anything. ~;)
.
Anyone claiming that antidepressiva are a "cure" for anything shouldn´t be able to prescribe them. Antidepressiva are meant to ease the symptomes of mood disorders. There are currently no known therapies to cure clinical depression.
KukriKhan
12-09-2005, 06:55
faith in the supernatural corrupts the mind and eventually destroys the body as well. It has crippled human beings since the beggining, and needs to be exterminated...by BP
Let us be very careful in our choice of words in this matter. Faith in the supernatural as an affliction is an intrigueing concept, and I wouldn't mind hearing more of your ideas about it.
But, suggesting extermination as a solution carries a connotation of human death (of those 'afflicted' with faith), which I'm sure you do NOT advocate...right?
LeftEyeNine
12-09-2005, 07:12
Anyone claiming that antidepressiva are a "cure" for anything shouldn´t be able to prescribe them. Antidepressiva are meant to ease the symptomes of mood disorders. There are currently no known therapies to cure clinical depression.
Well, these kind of medicines generally help you build a "shell" around you so that you do not think over and over about what disturbs for too long - that is an effect that comes into action around 6 months of regular dosage. As long as it is not a severe organic malfunction with your brain, the rest of the healing process is up to you to discover and eliminate what was lying under the iceberg - that is generally the deposit which you did not notice while it was piling up throughout your life.
:bow:
Mouzafphaerre
12-09-2005, 15:54
.
Anyone claiming that antidepressiva are a "cure" for anything shouldn´t be able to prescribe them.
I know at least one professor/colonel, head of the psychiatry clinic of the largest military hospital in the city, that qualifies. ~;)
.
But, suggesting extermination as a solution carries a connotation of human death (of those 'afflicted' with faith), which I'm sure you do NOT advocate...right?
I'm quite sure he meant that the idea must be utterly destroyed.
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