Internet Cafes: The untouchable Piracy?

[hellenes]

In my country (Greece) Net cafes rule...
They provide online & single player gaming, internet browsing, p2p downloading, pretty much everything.
With above average netcafe PCs costing on retail 1500-2000 euros delivering quite good performance, and loaded with 40-50 latest games that cost another 1000 euros (to the lefitimate customer) if one adds to all above the ISP cost being 50 euros a month for 384kbps for a personal use and the net cafe providing on average 1mbps (sometimes even 10mbps) FOR the price of 1.5 euros per hour on average one can see the huge blow that the hardware and game software industry recieves.
Who would pay 4200 euros for 2 years of gaming and internet access while for the same money one can get 3000 HOURS!!! Of the same experience.
Most of the net cafes have their games with no-cd cracks for convinience for the customer AND because they have 1 (or none) original copy for the entire net cafe as far as SINGLE PLAYER games are concerned, the multiplayer games (Warcraft III, WoW etc) have all legitimate original copies but still operate with nocd cracks.
The ease and convinence that the net cafes provide is combined with the logical unwillingness of parents to buy computers to their kids because of gaming addiction, so all of them just flock to the net cafes and ditch their money there.
With net cafes one doesnt have to worry about vira, upgrading (since they buy cheaper the parts and upgrade higher providing a performance that private person cant), connection speed, installation.
Living my 3rd year in the UK I havent seen a SINGLE gaming net cafe, that makes me wonder are they legal?
Is the exploitation and commercial use of software and hardware lawfull?
Because its part of life in Greece.

Hellenes

[Navaros]

Once I was in a Software Store/Internet Cafe in my city.

A customer was asking them; "so you guys must use pirated games here eh, I mean who can afford all those copies of the same game?"

Then they responded: "No, we don't do that here."

And the customer asked: "Why?"

Then they said: "We believe the developers deserve the money for their hard work."

Then the customer left the store.

And the one employee said to the other: "I hate when they mention the "P" word...of course we do that, everyone does that, but we're not gonna say that to a customer."

Of course they didn't realize I was eavesdropping on them. Anyhow that store has since shutdown, I think it was called MediaPlay or something like that. Not sure if they shutdown due to poor business, or their piracy. ~;p

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

They clearly deserve being shut down...

Maybe it's more of a city thing, but there aren't any internet cafes near me that I know of...

[doc_bean]

There are a few in Belgium, mostly in the back of game/computer stores. I'm not sure what their piracy policiy is.

BTW I find all these comments about how piracy is impossible to fight pretty dumb. There just isn't the political will to do it.

[Alrowan]

weve got a LAN place setup about 5 mins from where i live, been a while since ive been but they wernt online when they started, but it was still a great place to go with a bunch of mates and just have an evening of LAN without the hassels of setting it all up. Best part was that you can book the whole place out for a night

[Mikeus Caesar]

Living my 3rd year in the UK I havent seen a SINGLE gaming net cafe, that makes me wonder are they legal?
Is the exploitation and commercial use of software and hardware lawfull?
Because its part of life in Greece.

Hellenes

It's legal, just that there's no big demand for it. Everyone can afford their own PC, they've become part of family life. Most families have at least 1 PC (we have 2 and my grandad who can barely use a PC has 2 as well as internet), and the very large majority of them have the internet, so obviously opening up an Internet Cafe in this country would be highly unprofitable.

[AntiochusIII]

Internet Cafes are often very "compromising" when it comes to issues with piracy. They don't seem to care much about legality if it saves their costs...

Of course, Greece isn't one of the stricter countries when it comes to software piracy.

Nonetheless, it is rather sad that America isn't having such a large number of internet cafes. Games like Counter-Strike are at their best when you play them with your mates side-by-side, shouting orders and taunts at each other with no headphones needed. Or may be just peeking at their monitors to see where they are in de_dust.

[hellenes]

That's why god invented LAN parties. One doesn't need to resort to Piracy to enjoy the very industry that he/she would then be helping to destroy.

LAN parties?
Where?
Taking whole towers and CRT screens with you?
Doesnt sound that convinient to me...
Anyway, I know many people that prefer to play in Net Cafes although they have internet connection home, because they find LAN games more socialising...
The sales of PC's for gaming purposes are very low, as very low are the sales of Single Player games' otiginal copies, but the Multi player games have no problem...
We have also in many (mostly countryside) net cafes chipped Playstation2s and people playing copied games on them for 1.5 euros per hour...

Hellenes

[Kraxis]

Every first monday each month (that means tomorrow) I go out and play LAN Battlefield II (or Vietnam or 1942 for a few maps), starts at 19.00 and ends when we are tired.

That is of course done at a netcafé. We just preorder some 20-30 computers.

There are so many netcafés here that it is a very risky business. We have had two of our places die on us during the last year and a half, but now we have a stable, large and good café that seems to run everything the legit way (though all games are no-cd cracked).

[hellenes]

Every first monday each month (that means tomorrow) I go out and play LAN Battlefield II (or Vietnam or 1942 for a few maps), starts at 19.00 and ends when we are tired.

That is of course done at a netcafé. We just preorder some 20-30 computers.

There are so many netcafés here that it is a very risky business. We have had two of our places die on us during the last year and a half, but now we have a stable, large and good café that seems to run everything the legit way (though all games are no-cd cracked).

Thats the pain...
20-30 Pcs X 30 games per pc X 50 Euros per game = 45000 euros...
Thats a decent amount of money and in the competitive world if one doesnt pay all that he has the edge...
An extract from the RTW manual
"SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT:

LICENSE CONDITIONS

You shall not

1. Exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially, including but not limited to use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming centre or any other location based site. Activision may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make this Program available for commercial use;"

How many net cafes pay the publishers for License Agreements?
For 40 games?

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

The lack of IP protection is not a good thing for a country. Many companies will not invest into a country that has a poor IP track record. Those countries that have a poor IP protection record tend to be technological backward and finacially worse off.

By protecting IP countries develop quicker and become havens for technology investment.

Piracy happens around the world, but it definitly is proportional to how poor the socio-economics of the country is. In a well off country PCs, consoles and games are relatively cheap. Part of the solution in creating a more viable modern economy is IP protection, that and creating a knowledge economy... but if you don't protect the IP then there is little point in a knowledge economy... it would be the equivalent of being a primary producer but letting anyone steal farm animals because they feel like it.

Piracy is simply stealing... and a country that steals IP reflects the level of the locals... relatively uncivilised. ~:joker:

[hellenes]

The lack of IP protection is not a good thing for a country. Many companies will not invest into a country that has a poor IP track record. Those countries that have a poor IP protection record tend to be technological backward and finacially worse off.

By protecting IP countries develop quicker and become havens for technology investment.

Piracy happens around the world, but it definitly is proportional to how poor the socio-economics of the country is. In a well off country PCs, consoles and games are relatively cheap. Part of the solution in creating a more viable modern economy is IP protection, that and creating a knowledge economy... but if you don't protect the IP then there is little point in a knowledge economy... it would be the equivalent of being a primary producer but letting anyone steal farm animals because they feel like it.

Piracy is simply stealing... and a country that steals IP reflects the level of the locals... relatively uncivilised. ~:joker:

Well I wouldnt call Hellas uncivilised...
Member of EU since 1981.
Held SUCCESFUL (as far as the hosting is concerned) OLYMPIC GAMES.
Economy in a quite stable and high level.
Life standard not so low as many Greeks would like you to believe.

Pirate Bay is based in Sweden, I wouldnt call Sweden a poor or uncivilised country.
Russia has a decent share of global piracy but C.A. Officially localised RTW in Russian (using a third party company) without second thought...

In Greece the internet connections are quite expensive, 50 euros for a 384kbps line? Its 45 euros for a 8mbps line in UK...
So its very hard to download games in Greece without making ISPs rich...
There is also this sense of "rebellion" as many times the IP owners are multinantional colossal corporations, and with the whole anti corporal/anti american attitude in the Greek public one can see the rootes of the problem...

Hellenes

[hellenes]

Oh noes!? It's inconvenient for you to go out and rent a cafeteria or something for a day!? Surely that is a perfect excuse to endorse piracy!

In fact, it's inconvenient for me to work for my money! I think I'll start mugging people!

Well I didnt mean to insult anyone its just kinda heavy and bulky to walk all the street carrying a 17" CRT monitor and a Tower....
Endorse piracy?
These net cafes pay taxes they are buisnesses not some kids pirating in their moms basement, if the state has no problem with them what can I say?

Hellenes

[hellenes]

You should not be asking the state, you should be asking the developers of those games.

1st
Whatever right or wrong the US government does, as I know the people back up the troops no matter if they are fighting an unjust and unnessesary war...
2nd
Its very nice and convinient to equalise the Emploee to the employer, why nobody speaks about the PUBLISHERS? They are the bosses they dictate the patching the target group of the game and most of the VITAL production stages.
Are the payed emploees like developers losing anything? They have the risk of losing Jobs, but its the PUBLISHER that losing money directly and can go bankrupt.
3rd
My only option is to form a political party, win the Greek elections and close all net cafes.

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

, if the state has no problem with them what can I say?


Since a democratic state reflects the will of the people... doesn't it reflect poorly on the people then? ~:joker:

BTW can you name the city with the largest Greek population outside of Greece? ~;)

[hellenes]

Since a democratic state reflects the will of the people... doesn't it reflect poorly on the people then? ~:joker:

BTW can you name the city with the largest Greek population outside of Greece? ~;)

Chicago, Melburne, Sydney...
These three Im not shure what you mean though...
On the democracy, well we all know what UK people wanted about the Iraq war and what Tony Blair decided...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

Actually we will have to wait for the next elections to see if Iraq is a significant enough election point to decide things... after crime, economy, employment etc...

Melbourne has a Greek population of about 800,000...

[hellenes]

Actually we will have to wait for the next elections to see if Iraq is a significant enough election point to decide things... after crime, economy, employment etc...

Melbourne has a Greek population of about 800,000...

Thats correct...
If something isnt important people bend over it, they disagree but they tolerate...
But why you aksed me about Greeks abroad?

Hellenes

[hellenes]

Or you could simply stop patronizing them. ~:rolleyes:

Did I patronise them?
We are having a discussion here and net cafes are a fact in most western countries (like Denmark, France)...
Where did I patronise one?
But even if I did does it change anything?

hellenes

[doc_bean]

A couple of small remarks

-it's entirely possible that most cafes do run on a special license agreement, that probalby isn't as expensive to them as buying 50 copies og a game is. After all, publishers might see this as a form of advertising.

-no-cd cracks aren't always illegal, afaik, they will be in the EU soon due to a new directive.

-IP protection and anti-piracy are two different things. I don't think the average business owner cares about how we deal with pirated games, they'll worry more about our patent policy. And if they can run Windows on a few extra PCs without paying for it, I don't think they'll complain.

-Mugging people is hard work, and it's hard to predict your profit. the real money is in white collar crime ~:cheers:

[hellenes]

A couple of small remarks

-it's entirely possible that most cafes do run on a special license agreement, that probalby isn't as expensive to them as buying 50 copies og a game is. After all, publishers might see this as a form of advertising.

-no-cd cracks aren't always illegal, afaik, they will be in the EU soon due to a new directive.

-IP protection and anti-piracy are two different things. I don't think the average business owner cares about how we deal with pirated games, they'll worry more about our patent policy. And if they can run Windows on a few extra PCs without paying for it, I don't think they'll complain.

-Mugging people is hard work, and it's hard to predict your profit. the real money is in white collar crime ~:cheers:

Well this might be the case but there are still quite many game publishers for 40 latest games to be licensed...
But do the publishers care?
I havent seen any case of any publisher representative coming to Greece to react to the situation.
Rome Total War is being exploited for 1.5 euros an hour, people make huge profits out of Linage II fakeservers (set up by the net cafes networks themselves!!!)....
Windos OS on the other hand is being protected by the law, there is even a commission and an organisation set up to check all net cafes if they have legitimate Windows OS, while checking that they apparently dont notice the huge load of pirated games that are running on that OS...

Hellenes

[lugh]

Irelands had a boom of internet cafes in recent years. In Dublin city centre at least, you don't have to walk much more than a few hundred meters to find one really.
I think we have the large Asian immigrant community for it though, they're largely foreign owned and used. Hellenes, you're getting ripped off though mate, the cafe I use has 100Mbps at .50 cent an hour, and this is in Ireland, land of the €4 cup of coffee!

I thought cd cracks were legal on the basis of personsal use in the EU? ie you can use em to backup your games etc or run the game of a harddrived ghost? Sides that doesn't get arounf mp-cd key issues so I don't see it being an issue for the internet cafes.

[hellenes]

Irelands had a boom of internet cafes in recent years. In Dublin city centre at least, you don't have to walk much more than a few hundred meters to find one really.
I think we have the large Asian immigrant community for it though, they're largely foreign owned and used. Hellenes, you're getting ripped off though mate, the cafe I use has 100Mbps at .50 cent an hour, and this is in Ireland, land of the €4 cup of coffee!

I thought cd cracks were legal on the basis of personsal use in the EU? ie you can use em to backup your games etc or run the game of a harddrived ghost? Sides that doesn't get arounf mp-cd key issues so I don't see it being an issue for the internet cafes.

Well the 1,5 deal is an average for one go customers, if you are regular ~;) you can get €9 from 00:00 till 12:00...
This is Greece the land of €5 cup of coffee and €2 500ml bottle of water at the summer!!

Hellenes

edit: agree 100% with you sig!!!

[lugh]

Hah, I thought Ireland was the most overpriced!~D


agree 100% with you sig!!!
All of it? ~:cheers:

[hellenes]

Hah, I thought Ireland was the most overpriced!~D
All of it? ~:cheers:

ALL OF IT!!!
Espesially the first part...
Ive read somewhere in greek:
"Φασίστας είναι η λέξη των προδοτών για τους πατριώτες."
"Fasistas einai i leksi ton prodotwn gia tous patriwtes."
"Fasist is the word of the traitors about the patriots"
But its OT so ill end it here ~;) ~;) ~;)

Hellenes

[lugh]

Well, that's John Stewart Mill, a man who it'd be hard to be accused of being a fascist! Bah, best not to get into it here as you say, Backroom stuff.
I like the Greek saying too, very compact, I might change to it.

[doc_bean]

I thought cd cracks were legal on the basis of personsal use in the EU? ie you can use em to backup your games etc or run the game of a harddrived ghost? Sides that doesn't get arounf mp-cd key issues so I don't see it being an issue for the internet cafes.

Removal of any copyright protection will be illegal, at least in belgium, I though this was also what the EU directive said, but I might be wrong.

Back ups remain legal of course, if you can find a legal way of making them ~:rolleyes:

[frogbeastegg]

Let's keep this about the games, rather than the politics and all those other backroom sujects. Or I'll try out this smiley: https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/twsmilies/movedg.gif

Thanks.

[hellenes]

Let's keep this about the games, rather than the politics and all those other backroom sujects. Or I'll try out this smiley: https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/twsmilies/movedg.gif

Thanks.

OOps...
As I said though, and maybe that was unnoticed: END....

hellenes

[lugh]

Sorry.~:cheers:



Removal of any copyright protection will be illegal, at least in belgium, I though this was also what the EU directive said, but I might be wrong.
Back ups remain legal of course, if you can find a legal way of making them
I'll have to check it out. I like Europe and all, but this kind of thing smacks of corporate lobbyists rather than the will of the people. I hope that's on topic enough...:hide:

I doubt it's all that cost effective for a firm to pursue these things though. It's not the kind of thing that any state agency is going to pursue on their own bat, so it'd involve the company finding out the copyright infringers and reporting them to the authorities. Then cafe simply ups sticks and moves two doors down and sets up again.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Some games make some special editions for cybercafes. I think it's the case for Guild War in Korea where cybercafes are very popular.

Louis,

[hellenes]

Valve kicking some necafe @ss...
http://www.corante.com/importance/archives/004323.html
As I understand now all netcafes are Illegal if they dont buy license for each and every one game they own...

Hellenes

[doc_bean]

Buying a copy per computer seems a bit harsh, they should just give a global license.

But then they are Valve...

[lugh]

I don't like what they're doing. The café isn't allowed to simply cease and desist, what if they don't have the reserves to pay for the licenses, just close the business?
I wonder if any company has looked into publishing a stripped down mp-edition for cafés and the like. Say MTW with no SP campaign and the like.

[Dorkus]

Piracy might or might not be a good thing. If you look at the development track of most modern industrialized countries (including the US, for that matter), they start out as pirates until they start making their own IP. Then they reverse course (often due to lobbying by supposed "innovators" such as the RIAA and the MPIAA) and decide all countries (and people) should have stronger IP laws. This is true of the US, it's true of the Asian Tigers, it's true of India. And it will be true of the rest of the developing world.

There is massive deadweight loss whenever you create a monopoly. There is also massive social loss when innovators have no (or smaller) incentives to innovate. People who instinctively say that piracy is a bad thing simply haven't done their research; there are costs on both sides of the ledger and the right answer is an empirical one.

PS Incidentally, calling sharing of intellectual property "piracy" is already biased. In many countries, such sharing is not piracy any more than sharing a funny joke, or great cookie recipe.