View Full Version : Is Santa Real ?
Do you believe in Santa ?
Arguments for Yes
If you believe that you should give gifts (i.e. acting on Santa's behalf), you should answer - Yes.
If you believe that this is a special time to be kind to your fellows and give tokens of this feeling, you should answer - Yes.
If you believe that he uses a massive team of assistants to cover the entire globe delivering presents, you should answer - Yes.
If you believe one Santa deliver all the presents personally, you should answer - Yes
Arguments for No
If you think it is a a bunch of commercial hoo-haa to get you to spend, you should answer - No.
If you think you should be nice to your fellow all the time, and not just now, you should answer - No.
If you believe, he doesn't exist at all, not even in your heart, you should answer - No.
Arguments for Gah
... You know what they are.
Kralizec
12-07-2005, 02:24
Science has long ago disproved the existence of Santa.
There are 2,000,000,000 children (people beneath 18 years) across the whole world, but because Santa (probably) skips the muslims, hindoes, jews and buddhists, the entire amount of children would be 18.9 % of the total: 378 milliion, according to reliable sources. An average of 3.5 children per household gives a total of 108 million households. We'll assume that per household there is at least one good child (this is an optimistical estimation).
Santa Claus has 31 hours time due to the different timezones and the rotation of the Earth, assuming he works from east to west (seems logical). This comes down to 3.48 million houses per hour, or 968 houses per second. This means that per christian household with good children he has 1.033 miliseconds the time to park, jump off the sledge, plant the presents under the tree, climb out of the chimney, start the sledge up agian and procede to the next house. IF we assume that these households are scattered across the world equally (wich woud not be true, but for the sake of the calculations we assume so) we are talking about 1.3 kilometres between 2 households, and a total trip of 140.4 million kilometres. That means that Santas sledge travels with a speed of 1258.1 kilometres per second: 4,194 times the speed of sound. Comparison: the fastest verhicle ever, the spaceprobe Ulysses, only reaches 46 kilometres per second. A standard reindeer wouldn't reach more then 60 kilometres per hour.
The sledges weight leads to something interesting: assuming a child receives a small box of about 1 kilogram, the sledge tows at least 108 million kilograms, of wich the weight of Santa is still ignored. On land, rendiers can't tow more then 160 kilograms. Even if a flying rendier can tow ten times as much weight as a normal one, we can't accomplish anything with 8 or 9 rendiers, we would need 675,000 (this could be the entire population, wich would explain why we never spotted one). The total weight is now 148.5 million kilograms.
148.5 million kilograms with a speed of 1258,1 kilometres per second would mean a large force of friction. The reindeers would be heated the same way as a space probe wich travels through the Earths atmosphere. The frontal 2 rendiers would abosorb an estimated amount of 14.3 billion kilojoule per second. Probably, this would make them explode and the 2 rendiers behind them would be exposed to the friction.
Also, there would be sound booms as never heard before. In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded. In the meanwhile, Santa would be exposed to G forces equal of 17,000 times normal gravity. A 600 pound Santa Claus would be tossed into the air with a force of 443,150 newton.
Conclusion: if Santa ever delivered presents on Christmas, he's probably dead.
Strike For The South
12-07-2005, 02:26
but he has magic
bmolsson
12-07-2005, 02:51
I was Santa first time when I was 12. Christmas never really been what it once was after I was let in on the secret....... :(
Mouzafphaerre
12-07-2005, 02:54
.
I believe that there are people who believe in Santa. :party:
.
Kralizec
12-07-2005, 02:57
Just to clarfiy, I didn't take time to read the topic, just the title so I voted no...I do think Christmas is a nice time to get together with the whole family etcetera, we just don't celebrate it with gifts. The gifts part is covered by a similar festivity called Saint Nicolas over here, though sadly that tradition is in decline in favour of Satan Claus ~:mecry:
Reverend Joe
12-07-2005, 03:04
The frontal 2 rendiers would abosorb an estimated amount of 14.3 billion kilojoule per second. Probably, this would make them explode
In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded.
:laugh4: :bounce: That's a hilarious image... a giant flaming sleigh with reindeer exploding like molotov cocktails in the front...
Kralizec
12-07-2005, 03:06
You sadist :fainting:
Byzantine Prince
12-07-2005, 03:11
Santa is the lie we agree to tell little children. Reminds of another lie we like to tell simpletons so they shut up and stop asking for more bread. Hmmmm... :martass:
Reverend Joe
12-07-2005, 03:12
Just to clarfiy, I didn't take time to read the topic, just the title so I voted no...I do think Christmas is a nice time to get together with the whole family etcetera, we just don't celebrate it with gifts. The gifts part is covered by a similar festivity called Saint Nicolas over here, though sadly that tradition is in decline in favour of Satan Claus ~:mecry:
I thought that in Holland Saint Nicholas was called Sinterklass, and he is a surly whacko who lives in a cave.
Reverend Joe
12-07-2005, 03:13
Santa is the lie we agree to tell little children. Reminds of another lie we like to tell simpletons so they shut up and stop asking for more bread. Hmmmm... :martass:
~:confused: Which one?
according to Henry Gee, a senior editor at Nature
Of course Father Christmas exists, and he can visit arbitrarily as many children has he pleases in as short a time as is convenient, barring mid-air reindeer pile- ups. The reason is that Father Christmas is a Macroscopic Quantum Object.
Let me explain. It is a feature of the quantum world that particles - such as electrons - can be in more than one place at a time, provided that nobody is watching. In a famous experiment known as the "two-slit" test, physicists have been able to fire a single particle at an opaque plate with two separate slits in it. The diffraction pattern seen on the other side of the slits suggests that the particle passes through both holes at once and interacts with itself. However, if detectors are placed at the slits, to see which slit the particle passes through, the diffraction pattern disappears, and the particle can be seen to pass through either one slit or the other, but not both.
The key lies in the fact of observation. Provided that nobody seeks to measure the effect with more than a certain amount of precision, the particle keeps all its options open. But if someone looks too closely, the particle makes its choice. In the language of physics, its quantum wavefunction collapses.
Now, let's think of Father Christmas as a particle, obeying the rules of the quantum world. Following the logic of the two-slit experiment, it is perfectly possible for him to visit all the good children of the world simultaneously, provided that he does so unseen. If he is spotted, his wavefunction will collapse and he will be revealed as your Dad with a comedy beard after all. The quantum nature of Father Christmas explains the taboo against seeing him do his job - which Dawkins does not explain.
But there's more. It is possible to object that Father Christmas is far too large, rubicund and jolly to be a particle. In the real-life, macroscopic world of people, elves and flying reindeer, the quantum behaviour of each of the squillions of particles from which we are made averages out, so what we see is the everyday phenomenon of causes preceding effects, and people who can never be in two places at once.
Cynics might attribute this last consequence to the deficiencies of Railtrack, but it is a fact that real people, even bearded men with red hats and big boots, tend to be found in discrete locations, irrespective of whether they are being watched or not.
This objection doesn't wash, however, because it is possible to have macroscopic quantum objects that are larger than single particles. Scientists have managed to choreograph large clusters of atoms to behave as if they were just one particle, in a kind of nanoscopic Busby Berkeley routine. Admittedly, these clusters are too small to see with the naked eye, let alone qualify as cheerful red- faced men with sacks full of gifts, but the point is made.
Importantly, these macroscopic quantum objects observe the rules of the quantum world when cooled to within a whisker of absolute zero - minus 273 C. Any warmer than this, and the choreography breaks down and the clusters behave like any old bunch of atoms.
Nevertheless, in this frigidity might lie an explanation for another feature of Father Christmas that Dawkins neglects to explain - the undeniable fact that Father Christmas traditionally inhabits cold places, such as Lapland or the North Pole. OK, so neither of these places gets as chilly as absolute zero, but it must count for something that no deserving child would address their wish list to hot places such as, say, Borneo or Brazil. The very idea is quite ridiculous. QED (which stands for Quantum Electrodynamics, as any fule kno.)
Also
Thomas Magee
I answer that, The existence of Santa Claus Can be proved in five ways.
The first and most manifest way is that taken from Christmas trees. It is certain and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are Christmas trees. Now no pine tree becomes a Christmas tree unless it is trimmed. Now to be trimmed means to receive ornaments from another. But this cannot go on to infinity in the trimming of Christmas trees. One must come to some first untrimmed trimmer; and this everyone understands to be Santa Claus.
The second way is from the nature of Christmas gifts. We see that in the world that Christmas gifts are given and received. Whoever, then, gives Christmas gifts either receives them from another or makes them in his workshop. If, however, no one makes Christmas gifts in his workshop, they are not given nor received. Therefore it is necessary to posit some first giver of Christmas gifts, who everyone calls Santa Claus.
The third way is taken from plastic images resembling Santa Claus. At all stores we see things of plastic that represent Santa Claus. These things are of such a quality that they are representations according to Santa himself or according to other images of him. But, it is not possible to proceed to infinity in images. Therefore, it is necessary to posit something which is resembling Santa Claus and hence Santa Claus exists.
The fourth way is taken from the grades which are found in Christmas spirit. Indeed, in this world, among men there are some of more and some of less Christmas spirit. But "more" and "less" is said of diverse things according as they resemble in their diverse ways something which is the "maximum." Therefore there must be something which has the most Christmas spirit, and this we call Santa Claus.
The fifth way is taken from the behavior of children. When Christmas day approaches, we see from their being good always or frequently that children, who lack understanding, are moved because of an end. But children would not be good because of the Nativity of Christ unless there were someone who strengthened them so that they were good. And this someone is known by all to be Santa Claus.
Kralizec
12-07-2005, 03:18
I thought that in Holland Saint Nicholas was called Sinterklass, and he is a surly whacko who lives in a cave.
We call him either Sint Nikolaas or Sinterklaas. What we tell our kids is that he lives in Spain (actually the place where he was burried) and comes to the Netherlands each year to deliver presents on 5 december, his supposed birthday (actually the date of his death)
Alexanderofmacedon
12-07-2005, 03:21
Science has long ago disproved the existence of Santa.
There are 2,000,000,000 children (people beneath 18 years) across the whole world, but because Santa (probably) skips the muslims, hindoes, jews and buddhists, the entire amount of children would be 18.9 % of the total: 378 milliion, according to reliable sources. An average of 3.5 children per household gives a total of 108 million households. We'll assume that per household there is at least one good child (this is an optimistical estimation).
Santa Claus has 31 hours time due to the different timezones and the rotation of the Earth, assuming he works from east to west (seems logical). This comes down to 3.48 million houses per hour, or 968 houses per second. This means that per christian household with good children he has 1.033 miliseconds the time to park, jump off the sledge, plant the presents under the tree, climb out of the chimney, start the sledge up agian and procede to the next house. IF we assume that these households are scattered across the world equally (wich woud not be true, but for the sake of the calculations we assume so) we are talking about 1.3 kilometres between 2 households, and a total trip of 140.4 million kilometres. That means that Santas sledge travels with a speed of 1258.1 kilometres per second: 4,194 times the speed of sound. Comparison: the fastest verhicle ever, the spaceprobe Ulysses, only reaches 46 kilometres per second. A standard reindeer wouldn't reach more then 60 kilometres per hour.
The sledges weight leads to something interesting: assuming a child receives a small box of about 1 kilogram, the sledge tows at least 108 million kilograms, of wich the weight of Santa is still ignored. On land, rendiers can't tow more then 160 kilograms. Even if a flying rendier can tow ten times as much weight as a normal one, we can't accomplish anything with 8 or 9 rendiers, we would need 675,000 (this could be the entire population, wich would explain why we never spotted one). The total weight is now 148.5 million kilograms.
148.5 million kilograms with a speed of 1258,1 kilometres per second would mean a large force of friction. The reindeers would be heated the same way as a space probe wich travels through the Earths atmosphere. The frontal 2 rendiers would abosorb an estimated amount of 14.3 billion kilojoule per second. Probably, this would make them explode and the 2 rendiers behind them would be exposed to the friction.
Also, there would be sound booms as never heard before. In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded. In the meanwhile, Santa would be exposed to G forces equal of 17,000 times normal gravity. A 600 pound Santa Claus would be tossed into the air with a force of 443,150 newton.
Conclusion: if Santa ever delivered presents on Christmas, he's probably dead.
LMAO...Funny, funny...
Reverend Joe
12-07-2005, 03:28
Let me explain. It is a feature of the quantum world that particles - such as electrons - can be in more than one place at a time, provided that nobody is watching. In a famous experiment known as the "two-slit" test, physicists have been able to fire a single particle at an opaque plate with two separate slits in it. The diffraction pattern seen on the other side of the slits suggests that the particle passes through both holes at once and interacts with itself.
https://img235.imageshack.us/img235/930/explodinghead5aj1ie.gif
Kanamori
12-07-2005, 03:59
My uncle liked to tell me about the two-slit experiment to screw w/ my head when I was younger.~D
"...but how?" "You mean you don't understand?"~:mecry:
Science has long ago disproved the existence of Santa.
There are 2,000,000,000 children (people beneath 18 years) across the whole world, but because Santa (probably) skips the muslims, hindoes, jews and buddhists, the entire amount of children would be 18.9 % of the total: 378 milliion, according to reliable sources. An average of 3.5 children per household gives a total of 108 million households. We'll assume that per household there is at least one good child (this is an optimistical estimation).
Santa Claus has 31 hours time due to the different timezones and the rotation of the Earth, assuming he works from east to west (seems logical). This comes down to 3.48 million houses per hour, or 968 houses per second. This means that per christian household with good children he has 1.033 miliseconds the time to park, jump off the sledge, plant the presents under the tree, climb out of the chimney, start the sledge up agian and procede to the next house. IF we assume that these households are scattered across the world equally (wich woud not be true, but for the sake of the calculations we assume so) we are talking about 1.3 kilometres between 2 households, and a total trip of 140.4 million kilometres. That means that Santas sledge travels with a speed of 1258.1 kilometres per second: 4,194 times the speed of sound. Comparison: the fastest verhicle ever, the spaceprobe Ulysses, only reaches 46 kilometres per second. A standard reindeer wouldn't reach more then 60 kilometres per hour.
The sledges weight leads to something interesting: assuming a child receives a small box of about 1 kilogram, the sledge tows at least 108 million kilograms, of wich the weight of Santa is still ignored. On land, rendiers can't tow more then 160 kilograms. Even if a flying rendier can tow ten times as much weight as a normal one, we can't accomplish anything with 8 or 9 rendiers, we would need 675,000 (this could be the entire population, wich would explain why we never spotted one). The total weight is now 148.5 million kilograms.
148.5 million kilograms with a speed of 1258,1 kilometres per second would mean a large force of friction. The reindeers would be heated the same way as a space probe wich travels through the Earths atmosphere. The frontal 2 rendiers would abosorb an estimated amount of 14.3 billion kilojoule per second. Probably, this would make them explode and the 2 rendiers behind them would be exposed to the friction.
Also, there would be sound booms as never heard before. In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded. In the meanwhile, Santa would be exposed to G forces equal of 17,000 times normal gravity. A 600 pound Santa Claus would be tossed into the air with a force of 443,150 newton.
Conclusion: if Santa ever delivered presents on Christmas, he's probably dead.
U beat me to it. I was gonna post that!
Zorba:
That is a hilarious picture.
Also, there would be sound booms as never heard before. In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded.
Adrian II
12-07-2005, 04:33
We call him either Sint Nikolaas or Sinterklaas. What we tell our kids is that he lives in Spain (actually the place where he was burried) and comes to the Netherlands each year to deliver presents on 5 december, his supposed birthday (actually the date of his death)That's right. The whacko in the cave is Balkenende. We never celebrate him.
Gregoshi
12-07-2005, 05:01
Like with so many things in this world, Santa Claus, Christmas (and Everything) is what you decide make of it. You can choose to enjoy the beauty and magical feeling of houses decked out in Christmas lights or you can skoff at the tacky commercialism of those same lights. Personally, I feel much better embracing the good aspects of this time of year and I tend to ignore those things that attempt to make it otherwise.
Mouzafphaerre
12-07-2005, 05:20
Like with so many things in this world, Santa Claus, Christmas (and Everything) is what you decide make of it. You can choose to enjoy the beauty and magical feeling of houses decked out in Christmas lights or you can skoff at the tacky commercialism of those same lights. Personally, I feel much better embracing the good aspects of this time of year and I tend to ignore those things that attempt to make it otherwise.
.
:medievalcheers:
.
Santa Claus is sure real......I have had him locked in my basement for the last 3 years.....and the old bastard is not getting out until he makes with all the presents he didn´t give me over the years.......
you probably wouldn´t recognize him as he was lost some weight (hey, I don´t make enought money to keep paying for him to stuff his fat face)..........I like to taunt him tough..."it puts the lotion on it´s skin"....~D
InsaneApache
12-07-2005, 10:35
https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9378/bushquote6ce.th.jpg (https://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bushquote6ce.jpg)
O no !!! ~:joker:
Strijder and Ichi, great stories, thanks.~D
Thinking about it, the shops here don´t tend to rely on any person anymore, just Christmas music and "buy!, buy!, buy!!!"-ads.~;)
I can´t tell for others, but my parents told me Santa and stuff is all bs from the very beginning of my childhood.~;)
I still like the atmosphere though, especially with lots of snow.~:)
Ianofsmeg16
12-07-2005, 13:56
Christmas has become way too material...ok it's nice to have just one day a year when we are all kind to each other, but we have came to break one of the commandments.
Do not worship false Idles.
:)
*Goes and waits patiently for his drum kit coming for christmas :)
Adrian II
12-07-2005, 14:31
Personally, I feel much better embracing the good aspects of this time of year and I tend to ignore those things that attempt to make it otherwise.Well said. The 'season' has probably always been marred by tacky consumerism, even in the nineteenth century. But you can always make the best of it. I like to take my kids to a nearby shopping mall and not buy anything, just listen to the Salvation Army brass band playing hymns, put some real money in their tin, look at all the Christmas trees and ornaments, the lights and candles and then take a leisurely stroll back home. We also go to care homes to have fun and give fun to elderly people. This year we will turn my Dad's care home upside down with a whole bunch of kids and adults -- it is an excellent establishment where he has a huge room of his own and all sorts of facilities where they can throw a real party. I get this profound sense of well-being when I see those kids partying with elderly people, some dancing, others sitting down and listening to an old guy or woman telling stories, the whole thing drowned in hot cocoa and sweets, yellowish pictures and memories of the past.
And I always celebrate Saint Nicholas (5th of December) with my kids as if there is no tomorrow. During this 'Sinterklaas' party in The Netherlands we don't just give presents. The gifts must be accompanied by personal poems (all on behalf of Saint Nicholas of course) and wrapped in special ways, preferably whacky. For instance for a kid who likes puzzles, you make a fake present in the shape of a puzzle. The kid has to connect dots, fill in blanks, add and subtract, until he finally deciphers the message that says 'Look in the hall cupboard' -- which is where you have hidden the real present a couple of hours before. This can be huge fun, because it is also a way for adults to write poems and devise wrappings that emphasize each others' peculiarities, tics, habits, deficiencies, all in a mild way of course.
No tv, no gameboys, just nightly walks to gaze at the stars, feed the ducks or throw snowballs. No sickening amounts of food, no binge drinking. The season, for me, is about people, about generations, about celebrating your inner life. It is about coming to terms with the past year, so you can welcome the new one with a huge bang.
doc_bean
12-07-2005, 14:47
We call him either Sint Nikolaas or Sinterklaas. What we tell our kids is that he lives in Spain (actually the place where he was burried) and comes to the Netherlands each year to deliver presents on 5 december, his supposed birthday (actually the date of his death)
Does eh deliver them so you have them in the morning of december 5 ? If so, he comes a day later in Belgium, which proves our believes are a lot more reasonable than all this quantum mumbojumbo !
Adrian II
12-07-2005, 14:58
Does eh deliver them so you have them in the morning of december 5 ? If so, he comes a day later in Belgium, which proves our believes are a lot more reasonable than all this quantum mumbojumbo !On the evening of December 5, after dark! His minions, called Black Peters, either come in by the chimney or the back door, or they ring the bell and leave a basket with presents behind as they run off into the dark.
My kids will swear that they have spotted Black Peters on roofs, behind trees, etcetera... ~;)
doc_bean
12-07-2005, 15:17
Does Sinterklaas ride hus horse on the rooftops too ? That's what he does here, I've never heard about ringing doorbells though.
We call him either Sint Nikolaas or Sinterklaas. What we tell our kids is that he lives in Spain (actually the place where he was burried) and comes to the Netherlands each year to deliver presents on 5 december, his supposed birthday (actually the date of his death)
Actually Saint Nicholas is buried in Bari (Italy), not Spain. You can read more here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57587).
Btw, Santa Claus does only exist as an updated version of Sinterklaas.
Geoffrey S
12-07-2005, 16:06
Despite consumerism running rampant during the festive season it should not detract from making Christmas the pleasant family occasion it should be; it's what you make of it. Turkey dinners are obligatory, of course.
Gregoshi
12-07-2005, 16:18
Adrian, that is beautiful holiday season you describe. :bow:
Adrian II
12-07-2005, 16:50
Does Sinterklaas ride hus horse on the rooftops too ? That's what he does here, I've never heard about ringing doorbells though.Sure he rides the rooftops on horseback. I have seen him do that when I was five. I swear I saw him!
:charge:
doc_bean
12-07-2005, 16:54
A friedn of mine once snucj down ar night and saw santa clauses placing all the toys ! I tried to do this to but I fell asleep... ~:mecry:
https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9378/bushquote6ce.th.jpg (https://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bushquote6ce.jpg)
O no !!! ~:joker:
~:joker:
That is good.
No, Santa's not real. How did he get here? Did he will himself into being after St. Nick died? Is he St. Nick? St. Nick is dead; what gives? The list goes on without even touching the logistics of gift delivery.
And no, I don't like Christ-Mass either.
While we're still on the topic, is Onkel Tom Angelripper's ,,Ich glaub' nicht an den Weihnachtsmann'' album any good? Heavy metal caroling sounds like an idea that can't be beat, but then...it also seems very risky.
Science has long ago disproved the existence of Santa.
There are 2,000,000,000 children (people beneath 18 years) across the whole world, but because Santa (probably) skips the muslims, hindoes, jews and buddhists, the entire amount of children would be 18.9 % of the total: 378 milliion, according to reliable sources. An average of 3.5 children per household gives a total of 108 million households. We'll assume that per household there is at least one good child (this is an optimistical estimation).
Santa Claus has 31 hours time due to the different timezones and the rotation of the Earth, assuming he works from east to west (seems logical). This comes down to 3.48 million houses per hour, or 968 houses per second. This means that per christian household with good children he has 1.033 miliseconds the time to park, jump off the sledge, plant the presents under the tree, climb out of the chimney, start the sledge up agian and procede to the next house. IF we assume that these households are scattered across the world equally (wich woud not be true, but for the sake of the calculations we assume so) we are talking about 1.3 kilometres between 2 households, and a total trip of 140.4 million kilometres. That means that Santas sledge travels with a speed of 1258.1 kilometres per second: 4,194 times the speed of sound. Comparison: the fastest verhicle ever, the spaceprobe Ulysses, only reaches 46 kilometres per second. A standard reindeer wouldn't reach more then 60 kilometres per hour.
The sledges weight leads to something interesting: assuming a child receives a small box of about 1 kilogram, the sledge tows at least 108 million kilograms, of wich the weight of Santa is still ignored. On land, rendiers can't tow more then 160 kilograms. Even if a flying rendier can tow ten times as much weight as a normal one, we can't accomplish anything with 8 or 9 rendiers, we would need 675,000 (this could be the entire population, wich would explain why we never spotted one). The total weight is now 148.5 million kilograms.
148.5 million kilograms with a speed of 1258,1 kilometres per second would mean a large force of friction. The reindeers would be heated the same way as a space probe wich travels through the Earths atmosphere. The frontal 2 rendiers would abosorb an estimated amount of 14.3 billion kilojoule per second. Probably, this would make them explode and the 2 rendiers behind them would be exposed to the friction.
Also, there would be sound booms as never heard before. In 0.00426 seconds the entire team of reindeers will have exploded. In the meanwhile, Santa would be exposed to G forces equal of 17,000 times normal gravity. A 600 pound Santa Claus would be tossed into the air with a force of 443,150 newton.
Conclusion: if Santa ever delivered presents on Christmas, he's probably dead.
Solution: Santa doesn`t deliver presents and have never done. He`s only sitting on the North Pole and eating reindeer meat.
Santa 17, No Santa 14, Gah! 17
It looks as if Santa is still doing quite well.
edyzmedieval
12-15-2005, 14:38
I believe in Santa.
He doesn't have to materially, but at least he exists spiritually. :san_smiley:
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-15-2005, 14:50
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am a Santaist.:san_smiley:
What's up with all you grouches?
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