What did the picts look like?

[the_handsome_viking]

I was just wondering what the picts looked like in the various historical accounts.

I've looked at a lot of Pictish stones and have a general idea of what they wore in terms of clothes and how they wore their hair, but I'm not really sure as to what their hair color was like and things like that.

[RandyKapp]

Ginger, i would imagine.

[the_handsome_viking]

Ginger, i would imagine.

That's what I heard too.

[Jebus]

Dunk, ugly and constantly bickering over stuff too, I would imagine - at least, that's what their descendance would lead us to believe...

[the_handsome_viking]

Dunk, ugly and constantly bickering over stuff too, I would imagine - at least, that's what their descendance would lead us to believe...

How did the Picts wind up in Greece?

[Ranika]

Picts appearance varied by region and time period. Originally, many were said to have black hair, with long slender faces, and were sometimes considered somewhat short. Those living in the south (in the kingdom of Fibb) were sometimes described with blonde hair though (as they would have been married in with Britons and then Saxons), and in the north, as Gaels influxed from Ireland, a lot of them took on traits like brown hair, and they were no longer called short, but sometimes described as being very tall. They probably originally dressed like most Celts, but after the Gaelic invasions a lot began to dress the same as Gaels (bare-legged, wearing knee-length shirts, a lot of cloaks and robes, etc.).

Don't know why this is asked here though. Picts didn't exist yet. They confederated into a body after the end of EB's period. Till then, it's just Caledonian tribes (some of which dyed their hair a red color, which we'll be representing).

[Ergion]

It´s a pleasure read your posts, Ranika, inclusive in a language different from mine.

[Proper Gander]

i'm surprised that nobody said; "like my mother in law"

[the_handsome_viking]

Picts appearance varied by region and time period. Originally, many were said to have black hair, with long slender faces, and were sometimes considered somewhat short. Those living in the south (in the kingdom of Fibb) were sometimes described with blonde hair though (as they would have been married in with Britons and then Saxons), and in the north, as Gaels influxed from Ireland, a lot of them took on traits like brown hair, and they were no longer called short, but sometimes described as being very tall. They probably originally dressed like most Celts, but after the Gaelic invasions a lot began to dress the same as Gaels (bare-legged, wearing knee-length shirts, a lot of cloaks and robes, etc.).

Don't know why this is asked here though. Picts didn't exist yet. They confederated into a body after the end of EB's period. Till then, it's just Caledonian tribes (some of which dyed their hair a red color, which we'll be representing).

It wasn't a game related question, I was just curious and this seemed like the place to get The answer I was looking for, and well... I DID get the answer I was looking for, so thanks again Rankia ~:cheers:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

the north east of Scotland contains a lot of people who are fairly short, very pale skinned and very dark haired.

disproportionate amount of gingers too.

I figure the Picts would look pretty similar.

[BDC]

Drunk as well probably.

[Ranika]

According to St. Ninnian, the Picts mostly did not like alcohol, though they did make beer and wine was used in Christian religious services, as well as usually a staple of wealthier aristocracy (who likely wished to seem more civilized and thus idled over wine; rarer than easily attained beers). However, they seem to have often preferred a number of other drugs for recreation. St. Columba said many would inhale smoke from a mashed up gray root to cause their bodies to go limp and give them a sense of euphoria.

And onto a near completely unrelated note. It's something rarely noted today about the ancient world. Plenty of drug use. A whole lot of it. Ancient Celts used to sell slaves (which were cheap in Celtic society for their sheer number, but worth a lot elsewhere) in exchange for things likely akin to opium (which has a pretty lengthy history as an addictive substance), and countless substances were in use all over the ancient world aside from that, including drugs like what the Gaesatae imbibed, which possibly came from Egypt (I think it was...) originally. The effects of the drug are described in the exact same way; the body first goes totally limp, then the person becomes very vibrant and excitable, and completely ignores any pain or remote concern for one's own life; Gaesatae were recorded as sometimes ripping out javelins and throwing them back; I often compare it to being the ancient equivalent of PCP, to get an idea of just what it does. Modern PCP addict; shotgun blast to the torso and he's still moving. Ancient world PCP addict; disregards the fact that his lungs should be filled with blood, and his innards mashed, and that he should be certainly dead. Like PCP, the drug likely kept the neurons in the brain active despite lack of certain things the brain normally needs to run; in effect, it allows a person to be alive, while they're dead. It also allows one to exert substantially more force into the muscles (since you don't feel the strain), allowing one to perform feats of strength that would normally be well beyond one's means.

In Celtic terms, this is probably what gave rise to the myth of 'rigi' (or any myriad of other terms). They're like zombies except they're very limber, incredibly fast, and very strong. However, they're depicted as dead warriors who never speak but in nonsensical jabbering, or they're totally mute (though they can understand when being spoken to). This isn't that unlike that, and over a few generations, one could make the leap from 'drugged up warrior' to 'near invincible super strong walking dead', since there was, at least in story telling purposes, little difference between the two. ....In EB you WILL get to push Gaesatae around as the Gauls, and they are a very tough unit. Also expensive. However, they're probably one of the best shock infantry in the game for the money, with javelins, a powerful charge, and great staying power since they don't die that fast and have the highest morale of any single unit (I think... One or two may be higher). Though, they also fight naked (so no armor but their shields), and cavalry can run them down.

[RandyKapp]

I love you Ranika.

[BDC]

I love you Ranika.
Hell yes. Clearly it's racists to prevent the Pict descendents from using the drugs their oppressed ancestors used... To Scotland!

[the_handsome_viking]

Ancient world PCP addict; disregards the fact that his lungs should be filled with blood, and his innards mashed, and that he should be certainly dead. Like PCP, the drug likely kept the neurons in the brain active despite lack of certain things the brain normally needs to run; in effect, it allows a person to be alive, while they're dead. It also allows one to exert substantially more force into the muscles (since you don't feel the strain), allowing one to perform feats of strength that would normally be well beyond one's means.

That is the coolest thing I have read today.

[the_handsome_viking]

In Celtic terms, this is probably what gave rise to the myth of 'rigi' (or any myriad of other terms). They're like zombies except they're very limber, incredibly fast, and very strong. However, they're depicted as dead warriors who never speak but in nonsensical jabbering, or they're totally mute (though they can understand when being spoken to). This isn't that unlike that, and over a few generations, one could make the leap from 'drugged up warrior' to 'near invincible super strong walking dead', since there was, at least in story telling purposes, little difference between the two.

That would be good material for a movie.

A Celtic fort holding off wave after wave of super strong, super fast, nonsensical jabbering undead warriors.

I'd seriously like to see a movie like that.


....In EB you WILL get to push Gaesatae around as the Gauls, and they are a very tough unit. Also expensive. However, they're probably one of the best shock infantry in the game for the money, with javelins, a powerful charge, and great staying power since they don't die that fast and have the highest morale of any single unit (I think... One or two may be higher). Though, they also fight naked (so no armor but their shields), and cavalry can run them down.

Why did they fight naked exactly? and did the Romans ever put anything like that into practice? or would these drugged up warriors have been too hard to control?

[Ranika]

There are plenty of Irish stories involving the dead like that. The 'cauldron-born' and similar myths postulate that they were made with a magic cauldron (perhaps referencing the way the different substances to make the drug were mixed together) and that the dead warrior would be immersed in it, then crawl out.

And Gaesatae, and others, fought naked because it allowed a free range of mobility, most likely. Additionally, it's also very frightening for the enemy. I mean, we can make fun, but just try to imagine a large number of armed, naked berserkers, who all want to kill you and cut off your head as a trophy. The Romans never used that kind of thing, but Gauls, and Carthage did; at least once Carthage did (Hannibal had some private bodyguards composed of the Gaesatae). Gaesatae will not be widely available though in EB; they didn't fight for just anyone despite their status as mercenaries. In both real life and in game terms, they're meant purely as shock infantry that can also horrify an enemy. The idea is to use them to augment an attack by hurling them at weak points and opening a gap to be exploited by better disciplined soldiers once the Gaesatae have tired out (which won't be too quickly, but I still wish we could apply a number value to hardiness, since they should not tire very easily; again, the drugs). That said, they're pretty fast and versatile. You can also use them to flank (in some tests, using two units of Gaesatae to flank a few units of Roman infantry already engaged with lighter/weaker troops, it caused quite a number of near victorious Roman units to break quickly). They're for the most part an augmentive reserve or something to soften up the enemy for an attack.

[the_handsome_viking]

There are plenty of Irish stories involving the dead like that. The 'cauldron-born' and similar myths postulate that they were made with a magic cauldron (perhaps referencing the way the different substances to make the drug were mixed together) and that the dead warrior would be immersed in it, then crawl out.

Kind of like in the mabinogion? that cauldron that brought people back to life?



And Gaesatae, and others, fought naked because it allowed a free range of mobility, most likely. Additionally, it's also very frightening for the enemy. I mean, we can make fun, but just try to imagine a large number of armed, naked berserkers, who all want to kill you and cut off your head as a trophy. The Romans never used that kind of thing, but Gauls, and Carthage did; at least once Carthage did (Hannibal had some private bodyguards composed of the Gaesatae).

I read somewhere that some Greeks saw nakedness in battle as a sign of courage and skill, is that true? and if so did they ever fight naked?


Gaesatae will not be widely available though in EB; they didn't fight for just anyone despite their status as mercenaries. In both real life and in game terms, they're meant purely as shock infantry that can also horrify an enemy. The idea is to use them to augment an attack by hurling them at weak points and opening a gap to be exploited by better disciplined soldiers once the Gaesatae have tired out (which won't be too quickly, but I still wish we could apply a number value to hardiness, since they should not tire very easily; again, the drugs). That said, they're pretty fast and versatile. You can also use them to flank (in some tests, using two units of Gaesatae to flank a few units of Roman infantry already engaged with lighter/weaker troops, it caused quite a number of near victorious Roman units to break quickly). They're for the most part an augmentive reserve or something to soften up the enemy for an attack.

Aside from being augmented by drugs, how physically fit were these guys? were they basically expert fighters? and superb athletes?

Also what did they do when they weren't fighting?

[Reverend Joe]

That would be good material for a movie.

A Celtic fort holding off wave after wave of super strong, super fast, nonsensical jabbering undead warriors.

I'd seriously like to see a movie like that.

Man, that would be a good movie! "Night of the Cauldron-Born"...

[Ranika]

Kind of like in the mabinogion? that cauldron that brought people back to life?

Yes, precisely. Variants of stories about it exist depending on region. As is the habit though, most people only know the 'big stories'. I know quite a few variants and more or less unrelated stories. Irish myth is rife with the dead deciding to get up and walked about. Some really creepy stuff like rigimuir, my uncle used to tell me stories about them when I was a boy to terrify me. They're the dead come ashore at night; those who drowned at sea in a state of cowardice or hatred. They drag off anyone they find into the sea and eat their eyes. Beat that Romero. Eyeball eating long dead boatmen from the deep.


I read somewhere that some Greeks saw nakedness in battle as a sign of courage and skill, is that true? and if so did they ever fight naked?

I honestly don't know. I suppose at some point they may have, but one of our Hellenic experts is substantially better qualified to answer this than me.


Aside from being augmented by drugs, how physically fit were these guys? were they basically expert fighters? and superb athletes?

Also what did they do when they weren't fighting?

They would be quite physically fit. They were known for a cult-like devotion to their physical well-being when not fighting. They were all very experienced soldiers before they joined the Gaesatae, so they were most likely experts in some degree, and such experience brings with it a lot of physical conditioning. When not fighting, they were probably like a lot of other Celts. They would play games that increase physical aptitude, have a lot of parties, relax with various substances and more debauched activities, attend religious ceremonies, or perform a service in their down time like blacksmithing.

[the_handsome_viking]

Yes, precisely. Variants of stories about it exist depending on region. As is the habit though, most people only know the 'big stories'. I know quite a few variants and more or less unrelated stories. Irish myth is rife with the dead deciding to get up and walked about. Some really creepy stuff like rigimuir, my uncle used to tell me stories about them when I was a boy to terrify me. They're the dead come ashore at night; those who drowned at sea in a state of cowardice or hatred. They drag off anyone they find into the sea and eat their eyes. Beat that Romero. Eyeball eating long dead boatmen from the deep.

You must have loved it when your uncle babysat you.

[Ranika]

He's always been big on local and family folklore. Apparently we have an inordinately high number of stories about ghosts and the like in my family. Was great as a kid, usually, I enjoyed being scared. Usually anyway.

[Shigawire]

I was just wondering what the picts looked like in the various historical accounts.

I've looked at a lot of Pictish stones and have a general idea of what they wore in terms of clothes and how they wore their hair, but I'm not really sure as to what their hair color was like and things like that.


They were, in fact, hairy bastards. :san_smiley:

They also liked to draw pictures.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
So, what's known about who they were? I've seen accounts on them being Celts but also ones stating that they were non-Celts [more] indigenous to Britain. Bede, I think, says that they had a different language.
.

[Randarkmaan]

I read in a book once that many early celtic warriors fought naked because they believed that not even the best armour in the world would be able to protect them, Because the time you are supposed to die is predetermined and wearing armour was basically the same as cheating your own destiny.

[Ranika]

.
So, what's known about who they were? I've seen accounts on them being Celts but also ones stating that they were non-Celts [more] indigenous to Britain. Bede, I think, says that they had a different language.
.

Both the Venerable Bede and St. Columba reported their language as having been wholely different than either British or Gaelic languages. Columba even used it as an excuse not to try and convert them, and instead sent his protege to try. Columba only went himself after his protege was martyred by pagan Picts, and, despite having been trying for years to study the Pictish language, called it 'impenetrably difficult'. Columba, it should be noted, spoke many British dialects and could converse in all of Ireland, including in the regional language of what is now presumed to be Ivernic. He was no linguistic slouch, and if he says Pictish was a difficult language, he was probably deadly serious about it.

That said, what is a Celt to us? A Celt is a member of the Celtic superculture, itself broken into many sub-cultures. We can discern that later Picts were 'Celtic', if by nothing else than their culture being so similar to Celts, with similar art styles, customs, and livliehoods. At the same time, they possessed some uniquely non-Celtic traits, such as prigomeniture laws (the passing of titles by bloodline; Celts elected tanists, and many Gaels of the period saw the Pictish system as 'tyranny', though it was ultimately used against the Picts to consolidate rule of Pictland under a Gaelic king). Ancient Caledonians may have well not been Celts by any stretch. They had a very unique culture in many places. However, some were incontrovertibly a Celtic people.

Even in the dark ages, some of the northernmost Picts may not have been Celtic by a strict definition, but the southerners were most certainly, even for a few non-Celtic traits, and much of the highlands were steadily Gaelicized (Picts even took to wearing Gaelic clothing much of the time, and their language may have been replaced by a mixture of British and Gaelic depending on the regions, before the last Pictish king was killed).


Also;



I read in a book once that many early celtic warriors fought naked because they believed that not even the best armour in the world would be able to protect them, Because the time you are supposed to die is predetermined and wearing armour was basically the same as cheating your own destiny.

This is speculation, and poor speculation at that. It overlooks the proliferation of armor amongst high society, and religious combatants such as Carnutes. It is unlikely Celts believed in fate to such an extent they wouldn't defend their bodies. I suppose it is possible some groups held this superstition, but the fact that they developed armor doesn't mesh with it as being a 'Celtic' trait, so much as probably a 'local' trait. Gaesatae, for example, did not want to die. They fought nude because it made them appear more frightening and allowed them to move freely. Potentially, they also didn't wish to get cloth in wounds they sustained for fear of infection after their drugs wore off. There are a lot of reasons to fight nude in the ancient world, and we don't need to immediately jump to superstition.

There are practical values in nude or near-nude combat, which are the most likely reasons because they're the most obvious. They also fit with a culture that develops armor, and especially a specifically war-like culture, in which various concepts of how to fight would come about. Make no mistake, Celts were clearly making a science of how to fight. Irish myth is filled with references to different fighting styles and philosophies (including fighting nude for sake of mobility). It is largely an argument based on flexibility; one can be rigidly armored and slower, but well-defended. Or, you can be very agile, and rely on your physical speed to protect you, rather than armor. Most accounts of Celts hurling themselves on enemy spears come long after the fact by authors who had never seen Celts in battle. Even contemporary accounts may be misleading or confused. For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans). That'd be pretty hectic, and a few may not manage to get under those pikeheads in time. Now, if you saw a man essentially run into a spear (without realizing he was trying to get under it) you may think he's so disregarding of his own life that he's just trying to render your weapon useless by sticking his body on it.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mouz:
Bede listed the languages of Britains and included British (i.e. Welsh), Irish (i.e. Gaelic) alongside Pictish,

However, every reliable Pictish placename is Celtic. Even the famous "Pitt" place names have a Brythonic first element ("Pitt" which is basically Welsh "Peth") with a Gaelic second element. The other ones could just as easily be either Welsh or Gaelic.

I'd treat Bede in many areas just as you would any other early medieval source, with caution.

Kenneth Jackson suggested that Pictish was non-Celtic but the consensus amongst the current Pict scholars is that he was incorrect and that it was a Brythonic language.

[the_handsome_viking]

For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans).

Will this tactic be in the opening beta? I seriously hope it will be.

[Simetrical]

I read somewhere that some Greeks saw nakedness in battle as a sign of courage and skill, is that true? and if so did they ever fight naked?I'm not an expert, but I do seem to recall that at some points hoplites of certain areas fought nude or near-nude. I guess it doesn't make much of a difference if you wear a breastplate under your huge shield, does it? Certainly going to be hotter if you do.

[Julian the Apostrophe]

Ranika, please, write a book collecting your uncle's stories, and others you know. The whole world is waiting to learn more about Celtic literary tropes than faeries and big dogs.

[Ranika]

Will this tactic be in the opening beta? I seriously hope it will be.

I don't think we can do this with the engine.

And there are already some common stories of other things from Gaelic myth. Just, they aren't as popular for some reason. A quasi-recent one that has a few versions would be the English-language 'Ned Kelly's Bones', which is about a man who dies, but doesn't feel dead, so he gets up out of his grave and goes home, and his wife can't get rid of him. Ned Kelly is a 'rigi' (though no version says it; I don't know the modern term to be honest, 'rigi' is a dark age term). Normal rigi cannot resist dancing, so his wife gets a fiddler, who has been courting her since Ned died, to play music until Ned dances, and his dry, decaying body breaks apart. In some versions, that's pretty much it, in one of the older versions, Ned goes mad as he's dancing and starts screaming and tries to kill his wife, but since a rigi can't stop dancing, he can't actually hurt her. In any ending, his bones are placed back in his coffin all mixed up so he can't get out.

The stories I was told often include a lot of violence or just abject horror though. Some involve things like that though, and some involve odd jokes or tricks to overcome evil beings. I was told some stories about faeries as a child, and they were generally pretty scary. Though, real Irish faerie myth is usually pretty disturbing, or at least weird.

[QwertyMIDX]

I like that story. Tell us another. :san_grin:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Ranika:
Bede wrote:
"This island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine law was written, contains five nations, the English, Britons, Scots, Picts, and Latins, each in its own peculiar dialect cultivating the sublime study of Divine truth. "
and
"In short, he brought under his dominion all the nations and provinces of Britain, which are divided into four languages, viz. the Britons, the Picts, the Scots, and the English".

which does not rule it out from being a Celtic language, even a Celtic language related to that of the Britons

Edit: edited out misreading of a text.

I couldn't find anything about language in Adomnan's "life of Columba".

Why do all the people who spend their lives researching the Picts (Scottish University academics) tend to agree that they spoke a Brythonic language now?

[Ranika]

Ranika:
Bede wrote:
"This island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine law was written, contains five nations, the English, Britons, Scots, Picts, and Latins, each in its own peculiar dialect cultivating the sublime study of Divine truth. "
and
"In short, he brought under his dominion all the nations and provinces of Britain, which are divided into four languages, viz. the Britons, the Picts, the Scots, and the English".

which does not rule it out from being a Celtic language, even a Celtic language related to that of the Britons

Edit: Bede also differentiates between the related Old English languages (well, I can think of one instance of that).

I couldn't find anything about language in Adomnan's "life of Columba".

Why do all the people who spend their lives researching the Picts (Scottish University academics) tend to agree that they spoke a Brythonic language now?

I think it's a simplification. Personally, I'm part of a small crowd that advocates the recognition of two potential sub-families of P-Celtic; those being Romanized an un-Romanized. This could explain Picts using a P-Celtic language, but a language different enough from the other Britons, who had copious Latin influence on their languages. And I've never heard anyone say that the Picts, without doubt, spoke a Brythonic language, but that it is a good possibility. However, if they did, it doesn't explain their differentiation from the Britons, unless it was a drastically different P-Celtic language.

Also, the reference to language is in the private letters of Bt. Aedhmuna, who accompanied Columba briefly, but had to return home with sickness. Aedhmuna commented that it was unusual that Columba couldn't understand the Picts. This would be explainable under the above hypothesis; even if it was a 'Brythonic' language by today's standards, then it would have been seen as entirely different. I was also already aware of what the Venerable Bede had said. However, I'd not count that the same way as inter-related Anglo-Saxon languages. The Picts had never experienced Roman conquest, and wouldn't have had the same linguistic influences and introduction, and I find it unlikely by Bede's time that the languages would've sounded remotely similar except under a scrutinous examination of grammatical rules, accents, and similar.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

oh, ok, fair enough, that definitely explains your views, cheers.
I couldn't help but feel the same way about roman influenced and non-Roman influenced P-Celtic languages (that's one of the reasons I reckon the Pictish is marked out as being different rather than it being a pre-Indo-European language/ a Scandinavian language/ other strange suggestion).

Edit: yeah, you're right, nobody will come out and give a definite answer because it's impossible to be certain. I should have said something about the general consenus or suchlike.

Oh, and that thing about the English languages was just a mistake on my part. I was using an English translation and read an English name that was then said to be spelt differently in the language of some of the Southern English: I didn't think that a Latinised version of the name would look so Germanic but I guess it did.

[Ranika]

In any event, about Pictish language, I'd never actually call it 'Brythonic', because that brings to mind languages like Welsh and Bretonic. I'd prefer we view it merely as P-Celtic, or give it its own sub-heading, as I stated before, as being 'Pictish'. Even if it is a P-Celtic language, all evidence still points to it having been quite different, and it's a bit dangerous, academically, to just class it as another Brythonic language, because that could lead to some very confusing points. Imagine trying to reconstruct Pictish the way we do languages like Cambrian, on the auspice that it's 'Brythonic'. It may lead to making some very wrong assumptions about the language, even it is a P-Celtic one.

[the_handsome_viking]

Hey Ranika I was wondering...

Sometimes I have come across information that has said that the picts were related to the scythians, is there any truth to this? or is this complete nonsense? and if the latter, how did that rumor come into being?

Also do you know anything about what kind of instruments the celts played? I know they played harps and I'd assume they played drums, but do you know of anything else they would play?

[Ranika]

Hey Ranika I was wondering...

Sometimes I have come across information that has said that the picts were related to the scythians, is there any truth to this? or is this complete nonsense? and if the latter, how did that rumor come into being?

Probably a bit of nonsense, though there were potentially some Scythians in Ireland based on a few relics, but presumably they were hired by the invaders to help quell the natives (a lot of pieces of equipment from various cultures are found in Ireland though, as many were brought to conquer the island). It's probably quite an amount of nonsense though all the same, a lot of the inhabitants of the region were call Scythians at some point or another, but this is unlikely in most cases.


Also do you know anything about what kind of instruments the celts played? I know they played harps and I'd assume they played drums, but do you know of anything else they would play?

Celts also played various types of bronze horns and pipes, fiddles were introduced by the Romans to Britain and exported from there to Ireland, and the earliest bagpipes were exported out of Galatia, though they were likely the invention of the Phrygians; the Romans, some Gauls, and potentially some Britons and Goidils played them, but the bagpipes wouldn't be that popular after the fall of the Roman Empire, and were not a big instrument in Scotland until late in the middle ages, though they had been a Welsh marching instrument for some years, and served the same purpose in Munster, in Ireland, since around 600 AD (in fact, the banner of Comumu, a mercenary subset of the Urmumu, featured an early style of bagpipes over a sword). A great variety of drums were used, from small hand drums, to larger marching drums, and yes, harps were used. Dulcimers were also used later.

I'll note here that a Carnyx is not so much an instrument as it is a tool for directing soldiers and to disarray cavalry and infantry in battle.

[the_handsome_viking]

Great answers so far Ranika.

One other thing I was wondering about the celts and well... the classical world in general, When it came to close combat was there any sort code of honor or any moves that simply were looked down upon?

I've read from time to time that there were fighting schools within celtic societies I'd assume various forms of martial arts would be taught there which makes me wonder how fights would be organized within Celtic society.

Would you challenge someone to a duel? or would you just attack them out right? could you kick them in the groin? or kick them on the ground? was biting, gouging or stamping allowed? or were these moves looked down upon? or did it really depend on the tribe? and if so was there any particularly vicious tribe that had an "anything goes" kind of outlook when it came to violence?

Also A lot of Celts seemed to have long hair which leads me to wonder, was hair pulling frowned upon? or did they tie their hair in a certain way to make hair pulling a less obvious option, I know hair pulling seems a bit girly but, it seems like an obvious thing to do in a fight.

[Ranika]

Great answers so far Ranika.

One other thing I was wondering about the celts and well... the classical world in general, When it came to close combat was there any sort code of honor or any moves that simply were looked down upon?

I've read from time to time that there were fighting schools within celtic societies I'd assume various forms of martial arts would be taught there which makes me wonder how fights would be organized within Celtic society.

Would you challenge someone to a duel? or would you just attack them out right? could you kick them in the groin? or kick them on the ground? was biting, gouging or stamping allowed? or were these moves looked down upon? or did it really depend on the tribe? and if so was there any particularly vicious tribe that had an "anything goes" kind of outlook when it came to violence?

Also A lot of Celts seemed to have long hair which leads me to wonder, was hair pulling frowned upon? or did they tie their hair in a certain way to make hair pulling a less obvious option, I know hair pulling seems a bit girly but, it seems like an obvious thing to do in a fight.

Celtic duelling was extremely formal. Duellists were usually experienced warriors, or professional combatants. Most of what we know about Celtic martial arts tradition come from oral histories copied by Christian Celts. A fine example is Comrac Fir dead inso (The Combat of Ferdiad and Cu Chullain). Ferdiad and Cu Chullain had a formal challenge issued. Before the fight, they discuss what weapons are acceptable. Before the duel, they perform a few feats of combat (like weapon kata) to display their skill. In the fight itself, anything appears to be allowed, but one is expected to use some level of formal conduct. If your opponent yields, it is cowardly to attack them because they're already beaten.

For the matter of 'just attack them out right', this would most definitely not be allowed. Without a formal challenge, you're just attempting to commit murder. Brehon law is very clear about this. No matter what offense your opponent has commited, unless they accept a challenge to a duel, you can't harm them. You can sue them for compensation, but if you killed him, you'd be arrested and fined or banished, or sacrificed if it was during certain festivals.

Not all Celts had long hair. The Cisalpine Gauls, the Bononnae (Boii) in both Cisalpine Gaul and Central Europe, the southern Britons, and some Caledonians all cut their hair, and spiked it back using lye to give them a fearsome appearance; their hair wouldn't be that long in most cases. Long-haired Celts used braids and other hairstyles of various types to keep their hair out of the way.

Pulling hair was used in battle. You could yank a man's hair back and expose his throat. It's why Romans began to shave their heads, if I recall correctly (the same reason was used by the Tuatuann clan in Ireland, who shaved themselves bald, which was extremely unusual; Goidils/Gaels wore their hair long with elaborate braids and took great pride in their hair; shaving their heads was a pretty radical idea.)

[the_handsome_viking]

Celtic duelling was extremely formal. Duellists were usually experienced warriors, or professional combatants. Most of what we know about Celtic martial arts tradition come from oral histories copied by Christian Celts. A fine example is Comrac Fir dead inso (The Combat of Ferdiad and Cu Chullain). Ferdiad and Cu Chullain had a formal challenge issued. Before the fight, they discuss what weapons are acceptable. Before the duel, they perform a few feats of combat (like weapon kata) to display their skill. In the fight itself, anything appears to be allowed, but one is expected to use some level of formal conduct. If your opponent yields, it is cowardly to attack them because they're already beaten.

For the matter of 'just attack them out right', this would most definitely not be allowed. Without a formal challenge, you're just attempting to commit murder. Brehon law is very clear about this. No matter what offense your opponent has commited, unless they accept a challenge to a duel, you can't harm them. You can sue them for compensation, but if you killed him, you'd be arrested and fined or banished, or sacrificed if it was during certain festivals.

Not all Celts had long hair. The Cisalpine Gauls, the Bononnae (Boii) in both Cisalpine Gaul and Central Europe, the southern Britons, and some Caledonians all cut their hair, and spiked it back using lye to give them a fearsome appearance; their hair wouldn't be that long in most cases. Long-haired Celts used braids and other hairstyles of various types to keep their hair out of the way.

Pulling hair was used in battle. You could yank a man's hair back and expose his throat. It's why Romans began to shave their heads, if I recall correctly (the same reason was used by the Tuatuann clan in Ireland, who shaved themselves bald, which was extremely unusual; Goidils/Gaels wore their hair long with elaborate braids and took great pride in their hair; shaving their heads was a pretty radical idea.)


Amazing information Ranika.

the story of Cu Chullain is one I'm fairly familiar with, infact it was the story the that drew my attention to the fact that there were fighting schools within Celtic society, for example hes sent to train under Scáthach, I think I came across the story through either looking up the "war-spasm" or perhaps it was referred to in something I was reading, that was about How the Celts treated women, (Scáthach was a female fighting teacher, which is quite impressive)... hmmm I think it was just the war spasm, but anyway...

It's also quite impressive that you could sue people back then for violence.

The more I find about about these societies the more apparent it becomes that a lot of the views and ideals we consider as "modern" today have been around for a very long time.

[GoreBag]

The Cisalpine Gauls, the Bononnae (Boii) in both Cisalpine Gaul and Central Europe, the southern Britons, and some Caledonians all cut their hair, and spiked it back using lye to give them a fearsome appearance;

Lye? Wouldn't that...burn a little?

[khelvan]

Lye? Wouldn't that...burn a little?Wait until he tells you what they did to get rid of their pubic hair. :san_lipsrsealed:

[the_handsome_viking]

Wait until he tells you what they did to get rid of their pubic hair. :san_lipsrsealed:

???

[GoreBag]

Wait until he tells you what they did to get rid of their pubic hair. :san_lipsrsealed:

I can see removal with lye, but..spiking it with lye?

[Ranika]

They would make different compounds using lye. Some were fairly benign, such as soap, some were probably extremely painful, such as what they used to remove hair (though it was only used in some places, others used more conventional shaving implements; however, the lye would keep hair removed much longer). Somewhere in the middle was probably what they used on their hair. It would essentially be a type of soap. They, except the Caledonians, would first lime wash their hair to bleach it (that alone would burn), but then used a type of lye soap to harden it while spiking it back. The soap used probably tingled more than burned; it'd be compounded with powdered grain or other simpler substances to help reduce the burn, and make it safer to use.

[Ranika]

Amazing information Ranika.

the story of Cu Chullain is one I'm fairly familiar with, infact it was the story the that drew my attention to the fact that there were fighting schools within Celtic society, for example hes sent to train under Scáthach, I think I came across the story through either looking up the "war-spasm" or perhaps it was referred to in something I was reading, that was about How the Celts treated women, (Scáthach was a female fighting teacher, which is quite impressive)... hmmm I think it was just the war spasm, but anyway...

It's also quite impressive that you could sue people back then for violence.

The more I find about about these societies the more apparent it becomes that a lot of the views and ideals we consider as "modern" today have been around for a very long time.

When one was offended in Celtic society, the first and most common way by far was to seek compensation from the offender's family. If they didn't settle the issue, one could get the local brehon (an elected 'judge', selected from the wisest locals, and had to be educated in the law, which was very exact in many matters and slow to change because it relied on public votes) involved.

Every crime was settled in this way. An appropriate fine would be issued based on the crime. If it was property damage, one had to pay a fine equal to the damage done. If one could not afford the fines, they would have to work as a servant to the family until it was paid. Even in cases of murder, one would be fined, based on the social station of the person killed. Also, murder is special because only the offender is punished. In other cases, an entire family has to help pay the fine; this encouraged them to ensure eachother remained within the law. However, in all cases, the fine is changed based on social status of the person who commited the crime; the higher one's station, the more they paid, and judges, kings, and magistrates paid the most, because they were meant to be exemplars of the law.

Duelling was usually a solution for disputes that could not be settled in court, but wasn't always lethal; this more depended on what the dispute was over, and how serious the disagreement. Terms for the fight would be discussed beforehand between the combatants, determining what was fair, if it was to be lethal, to the yield, to the death, etc.

And our views today have to stem from somewhere. Very few ideals appear from nowhere.

[the_handsome_viking]

Did the celts have hot baths? and also, what did they use for toilets?

[Ranika]

Depended on the place. They used cesspools, running water flumes in others, etc. In the bigger oppida, they'd use flumes running from a heated cistern into the homes of the wealthy locals who lived in the fort itself. Water would drain into a flume that was also used for waste, and carried to a cesspool.

[the_handsome_viking]

Wow, that was a quick response, what time is it over there dude?

04:38 here.

I really hope pictures of these flumes show up one day on the net and get spread around a lot. Sanitation in general is pretty important in influencing the way we think of people, especially historical people.

OK heres another question...

Did the Celts build cities out of stone? and if not, why not? I typically only know of the basic Celtic roundhouse and iron age hill forts when it comes to the homes of the Celts and I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make stuff out of stone.

I think the la tene site had some stone houses but I'm not really sure if this was just a one of as far as Celtic homes went.

[Sarcasm]

Today, in the USA for example, wood is still prefered over stone in building houses, simply because it is a readily available resource.

While, here where I live, there are no great forests left, and as such, I know of no house built mainly of wood.

[Ranika]

Wow, that was a quick response, what time is it over there dude?

04:38 here.

I really hope pictures of these flumes show up one day on the net and get spread around a lot. Sanitation in general is pretty important in influencing the way we think of people, especially historical people.

OK heres another question...

Did the Celts build cities out of stone? and if not, why not? I typically only know of the basic Celtic roundhouse and iron age hill forts when it comes to the homes of the Celts and I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make stuff out of stone.

I think the la tene site had some stone houses but I'm not really sure if this was just a one of as far as Celtic homes went.

Most such flumes were replaced with Roman pipes and the like. And Celts used what was on hand. The walls of oppida, for example, were faced with stone, but filled with stone and earthwork, and built at a slant (similar to renaissance era forts, actually). In places with plentiful sturdy stone, one could make plenty of stone homes, but wood was in use over a wide area because of the abundance of lumber available; one uses what is available.

[Shigawire]

you guys got it all wrong :san_cool:

they were hairy bastards

and they liked to draw

[Riadach]

Ehen did columba say this? We have no written records from him.


Both the Venerable Bede and St. Columba reported their language as having been wholely different than either British or Gaelic languages. Columba even used it as an excuse not to try and convert them, and instead sent his protege to try. Columba only went himself after his protege was martyred by pagan Picts, and, despite having been trying for years to study the Pictish language, called it 'impenetrably difficult'. Columba, it should be noted, spoke many British dialects and could converse in all of Ireland, including in the regional language of what is now presumed to be Ivernic. He was no linguistic slouch, and if he says Pictish was a difficult language, he was probably deadly serious about it.

That said, what is a Celt to us? A Celt is a member of the Celtic superculture, itself broken into many sub-cultures. We can discern that later Picts were 'Celtic', if by nothing else than their culture being so similar to Celts, with similar art styles, customs, and livliehoods. At the same time, they possessed some uniquely non-Celtic traits, such as prigomeniture laws (the passing of titles by bloodline; Celts elected tanists, and many Gaels of the period saw the Pictish system as 'tyranny', though it was ultimately used against the Picts to consolidate rule of Pictland under a Gaelic king). Ancient Caledonians may have well not been Celts by any stretch. They had a very unique culture in many places. However, some were incontrovertibly a Celtic people.

Even in the dark ages, some of the northernmost Picts may not have been Celtic by a strict definition, but the southerners were most certainly, even for a few non-Celtic traits, and much of the highlands were steadily Gaelicized (Picts even took to wearing Gaelic clothing much of the time, and their language may have been replaced by a mixture of British and Gaelic depending on the regions, before the last Pictish king was killed).


Also;



This is speculation, and poor speculation at that. It overlooks the proliferation of armor amongst high society, and religious combatants such as Carnutes. It is unlikely Celts believed in fate to such an extent they wouldn't defend their bodies. I suppose it is possible some groups held this superstition, but the fact that they developed armor doesn't mesh with it as being a 'Celtic' trait, so much as probably a 'local' trait. Gaesatae, for example, did not want to die. They fought nude because it made them appear more frightening and allowed them to move freely. Potentially, they also didn't wish to get cloth in wounds they sustained for fear of infection after their drugs wore off. There are a lot of reasons to fight nude in the ancient world, and we don't need to immediately jump to superstition.

There are practical values in nude or near-nude combat, which are the most likely reasons because they're the most obvious. They also fit with a culture that develops armor, and especially a specifically war-like culture, in which various concepts of how to fight would come about. Make no mistake, Celts were clearly making a science of how to fight. Irish myth is filled with references to different fighting styles and philosophies (including fighting nude for sake of mobility). It is largely an argument based on flexibility; one can be rigidly armored and slower, but well-defended. Or, you can be very agile, and rely on your physical speed to protect you, rather than armor. Most accounts of Celts hurling themselves on enemy spears come long after the fact by authors who had never seen Celts in battle. Even contemporary accounts may be misleading or confused. For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans). That'd be pretty hectic, and a few may not manage to get under those pikeheads in time. Now, if you saw a man essentially run into a spear (without realizing he was trying to get under it) you may think he's so disregarding of his own life that he's just trying to render your weapon useless by sticking his body on it.

[Dux Corvanus]

While, here where I live, there are no great forests left, and as such, I know of no house built mainly of wood.

I thought you lived in a hobbit hole in the Shire. :laugh4:

BTW, I know how picts looked like: they were picturesque.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

I thought you lived in a hobbit hole in the Shire. :laugh4:
He's frm Khazad-dûm. You know, that large cave in Spain! ~D

:hide:
.

[The Pict]

The Picts were a small-statured, black-haired, dark-eyed people. Their descendants can often be seen in the Scottish people. They probably came from Iberia having crossed into what later was the UK from France. Many Scots are dark or short-statured or both. This is a genetic legacy of the Picts.

[Gabriel Oi Taurisia]

The Picts were a small-statured, black-haired, dark-eyed people. Their descendants can often be seen in the Scottish people. They probably came from Iberia having crossed into what later was the UK from France. Many Scots are dark or short-statured or both. This is a genetic legacy of the Picts.

Interesting and stunning.
Perhaps, that's the reason why in M2TW the Portuguese always try and invade Ireland. :laugh4: They try to imitate their ancestors!