View Full Version : Hardest Faction
Byzantine_Fury
12-16-2005, 03:44
Hey ya'll.... I was just wondering what you all think the hardest faction to play as in MTW is, because I am lookin for more of a challenge (since i normally play as Byz...):san_laugh:
Strike For The South
12-16-2005, 03:47
Try the HRE they are pretty weak internally and dont begin with much in the way of an infastructure. The French are also chalenging becuase of where they start. Ive also heard the Spainsh can be tough (Although I find them to be one of the easiest)
matteus the inbred
12-16-2005, 11:50
try the Turks...you get few provinces which only really come into their own once you can trade from them, largely crappy troops and have to fight the Egyptians or Byzantines pretty early, both of whom are richer and more teched up than you...and you don't get your best troops (Janissaries) till late. and you get Crusaders all over you.
oh, and to make it even more sucky, the Horde can sometimes arrive on your doorstep too. i've never got anywhere with Turks.
Hungary's pretty difficult too, surrounded by big factions...the most tempting target is the Byzantines, but you're better off stuffing Catholic factions as they don't have 9-star generals with Kats...
i have to point out, i'm rapidly developing Byzantine Kat-phobia from playing a lot of Turkish and Hungarian games recently.
Aragon's very hard too...you get 1 (one) starting province! aarrg.
The Darkhorn
12-16-2005, 15:33
France can be difficult. Poland is initially landlocked, making it quite difficult on hard or expert (harder to get money going while building defenses and tech).
matteus the inbred
12-16-2005, 16:03
my mate at work agrees with you Darkhorn, France is a cast iron b*stard to start with, apparently. it's one of only two factions i haven't used yet...(the other being Byz, too easy!)
they have a poor strategic position, the likelihood of at least one and probably two wars, on several fronts, against powerful Catholic factions, and no rebels to attack from the off.
presumably to make up for this their provinces are rich, and they start off with a fair number of troops?
France is easy.:san_huh: As is Spain.:san_undecided: Both have good quick gains to be made against rebels, and an aggressive early assault can overwhelm nearby factionAI possesions. Deprive England of her continental holdings and she crumbles, same with the Almos.
Polans now, is a real challenge. You're landlocked and without crusades you've got to really work for your GA goals (or to make your King high influence for that matter).
The Turks are great, if it suits your style of play. They were my first non catholic faction so I really struggled, heh, ghulam just aren't capable of pulling battle winning charges at will, unlike RK!
The HRE are a challenge as mentioned, poor rescources and starting forces.
If you're playing vanilla VI, grab a mod, XL is good, it balances some economic issues cripples enemy ai. It also makes it harder for the player to bankroll massive armies.
Ive also heard the Spainsh can be tough (Although I find them to be one of the easiest)
The Spanish used to be difficult in vanilla Medieval because the Almos were major badasses and were very aggressive conquerors--they were actually somewhat overpowered originally, as they quickly overran western Europe (unless I managed to stop them, which was a wonderfully difficult thing to do!). Unfortunately, the Caliphate was greatly watered down with the VI expansion pack (its AI was altered so that it was more defensive-minded), and the Spanish suddenly became one of the easiest factions in the game.
Fortunately, since I downloaded the XL mod, the Spanish has become a more difficult faction again. The Almos have been beefed up, although they're not as ridiculous as they were in the original game. Perhaps just as important, however, is the addition of the Portuguese as a playable faction. Having four factions (Spain, Portugal, Aragon, and the Almos) fighting for control of the Iberian peninsula makes things much more interesting for all parties involved. :san_grin:
matteus the inbred
12-16-2005, 17:56
now i think about lugh, your appraisal of France is correct, i forgot Flanders...and paid too much respect to the Pope. i'll have to give them a go meself one of these days! France is one of the factions the AI plays quite well, to judge from comments elsewhere about how annoying people find them.
i found the HRE to be a great challenge, with a real feeling of being barely on top of things every turn instead of sitting there pressing End Turn repeatedly while waiting for my one decent province to finish building that keep...
I agree about the HRE. The HRE also have the problem of being an easy target for every faction surrounding it (Poles, Hungarians, Italians, French, English in Early, and the Danes), and it's even worse in XL Mod. I'm not saying XL Mod is bad, it's really good, but the HRE's position is bad, although challenging might be a better word. The HRE in XL also have the Burgundians, Genoese and Bohemians to worry about. The Italians may not be a problem, but the Venetians who replace them are practically the same.
OK first of all - depend if you are talking about single or multiplayer.
In single interesting are bizantine and poland on late era, maybe arragon too.
In multiplayer hardest fraction is egypt on all terrains exept desert.
Come Together
12-17-2005, 04:26
Honestly, I didn't find france or the turks quite difficult. I would have to say Poland, I can barely do anything with them. Allthough, to be fair, i have never played the argonese, or the sicilians for that matter.
Microwavegerbil
12-17-2005, 04:37
The HRE is, IMO the hardest to play. On Hard/Very Hard and especially with mods, everyone else is so aggressive that's it's rediculously hard to fight them all off. A war on all sides is about impossible to avoid.
The Darkhorn
12-17-2005, 06:08
The HRE is, IMO the hardest to play. On Hard/Very Hard and especially with mods, everyone else is so aggressive that's it's rediculously hard to fight them all off. A war on all sides is about impossible to avoid.
Is it just me or does your avatar look like George Clooney? :san_laugh:
Microwavegerbil
12-17-2005, 17:07
Haha, I guess he does slightly resemble him. Now I wanna change it. :san_undecided:
Speaking of pictures, is it just me or does this santa:san_laugh: look absolutely insane?
Try the turks starting on High. I found that to be pretty challenging.
HRE is definetely one of the hardest factions to play, you will have to fight on2-3 (if not more) fronts at some stage. Also they don't get any light cavalry and no unique units until late. I imagine the Byzantines in Late must be a real challenge.
No-one's mentioned them, but I find the Danes really hard to play with. They do get very strong units but no cash with which to train them. Also their only route to expansion (apart from Scandinavia) goes through the HRE.
Weebeast
12-19-2005, 00:21
In XL, the small factions (with the exception of Danes, Venetians, Sicilians and Genoese) are pretty hard to play. I remember playing as Portuguese on early. Spanish and Almohad ganged up on me and I died. The starting king isn't that influential so it's hard for the player to secure its position.
Whether XL or original I find playing as HRE pretty easy on normal setting. It's just pretty much the western version of Byzantine. I find playing Poland or Aragonese more difficult.
In XL, the small factions (with the exception of Danes, Venetians, Sicilians and Genoese) are pretty hard to play. I remember playing as Portuguese on early. Spanish and Almohad ganged up on me and I died. The starting king isn't that influential so it's hard for the player to secure its position.
Whether XL or original I find playing as HRE pretty easy on normal setting. It's just pretty much the western version of Byzantine. I find playing Poland or Aragonese more difficult.
Yeah, Portugal is tough in the XL mod--although to be fair, all three Iberian Catholics factions are pretty difficult (the Spanish were pretty easy in VI, but they're much more challenging again in XL). I'm considering giving Aragon another crack, though; southern France is awfully tempting when the French get ex-commed. :san_grin:
I would rate the HRE as "fairly hard". They're not as difficult as the Polish or Aragonese, but you still get hit from all sides, and are always getting ex-commed by Rome since you're usually at war with one or more Catholic factions.
The Danes aren't too bad, as long as you expand quickly and don't turtle! Grab Scandanavia as soon as possible, of course, and then from there you have 3 main options:
1.) Send your armies east, and make the Baltic Sea your own personal mill pond. You can usually establish a strong northern kingdom this way in relatively short order.
2.) Given how they tend to be at war with multiple factions and/or excommunicated all the time, the Imperial provinces of northern Germany tend to be easy pickings, especially since their garrisons are often stripped of men to reinforce the Empire's armies on other fronts.
3.) Conquering England--although I've discovered this can be awfully risky. While they have pretty decent lands and are worth taking, I find I have to invade in large numbers, even if the island is lightly defended. The English people are surprisingly frisky, and require significant occupation forces if they're to be kept from rebelling.
Samurai Waki
12-19-2005, 09:56
hmmm....Elmo's can be hard, especially in High and Late. Also Byz in High and Late. I really haven't played a full campaign as HRE so I can't say much for them. My hardest Campaign was probably my Turkish Campaign, I started in Early, kicked the hell out of the Byzantines, and was well on my way to conquering egypt, then came the crusades, and just utterly wrecked me for like 100 years, started a civil war. Yeah Big Bloody Mess.
Then the mid 1300s came around, and I got my Janissaries, regained all of my lost territory and then some. In the end I won a minor victory, but I was happy all the same, toughest campaigns tend to be the most rewarding in the end.
I think tourkey is easy into campaing but hard using single games.
I played turkey and I noticed that one jihad cost only 500. So when i played i was conquering prowince and withdrawin from it. Computers reconqueredit and then i couldsend jihads. Not one or 2 but usually 6 :) My army was soon undefeated and I was waiting on crusades :):san_grin: :san_grin: :san_grin:
Abokasee
12-19-2005, 22:19
Try the HRE they are pretty weak internally and dont begin with much in the way of an infastructure. The French are also chalenging becuase of where they start. Ive also heard the Spainsh can be tough (Although I find them to be one of the easiest)
there hard at the begging but really easy once you killed aldohmaouds and start crusade against russian and mongols (i started from age 1)
ajaxfetish
12-20-2005, 05:43
Aragon can be very hard. You have only one province with decent farming but no trade goods or mines, plenty of powerful neighbors, and a none too impressive royal line. Unless you are very aggressive and somewhat lucky right at the beginning it's very easy to get boxed in and stagnate.
Ajax
Cowhead418
12-21-2005, 04:24
I have VI installed now but in my vanilla MTW campaigns the Almohads were never much of a threat. Only once did they conquer the Iberian peninsula. The rest of the campaigns they were usually killed by the Spanish within the first 25 turns. I never noticed this "extreme aggressiveness" because they were never a major player. The powerful factions always seemed to be the French, Byzantines, and Spanish.
I have VI installed now but in my vanilla MTW campaigns the Almohads were never much of a threat. Only once did they conquer the Iberian peninsula. The rest of the campaigns they were usually killed by the Spanish within the first 25 turns. I never noticed this "extreme aggressiveness" because they were never a major player. The powerful factions always seemed to be the French, Byzantines, and Spanish.
Damn, you must have an alternate-universe version of Medieval then. :san_tongue:
Seriously, though, I think you might be the first person I've heard say that. In the vast majority of games I and my friends played in vanilla MTW, the Caliphate would conquer all of Europe west of the Rhine, and would sometimes even have possession of the Holy Land (if they'd managed to catch the Eggies with their knickers down). From time to time a European faction (usually the Spanish, English or the HRE) would manage to keep the Caliphate in check, but that was pretty rare. Even if I myself was playing a western European faction (usually as the Spanish or English), I often was unsuccessful in stopping the Almos from crossing north over the Pyrenees.
Now it's true that in most of my games, the Almohads were eventually defeated--usually through a combination of faction re-emergences, invasions by a coalition of the surviving Catholic nations, and the Egyptians giving the Caliph a good hard shove out of Jarusalem and/or Cairo. Either way, however, a long and bloody campaign was almost always required to contain them, much less destroy them.
Microwavegerbil
12-21-2005, 21:48
Speaking of the difficult factions, in my friend's recent VI game as the Danes, the Spanish have conquered all of Western Europe (England and all through to most of Germany) and the Byzantines own all of Eastern Europe right up to Poland. The only remaining factions are the Danes who own the Meditteranean Islands and Ireland along with Scandinavia, and the Poles who own just Poland. It's look to become the battle of the century with the two largest AI factions I've ever seen already going head to head.
i would hav to say the hardest factions to play as on mtw is poland, sicily and germany. on vi i would say the picts, the welsh and the irish, as there units are not so gd but hav there purposes :rtwyes:
on rtw i would hav to say the carths as even though they hav decent units but there starting point is bad as u hav territory in spain which causes problem if u want to expand in spain. also the fact that the numadians also want a piece of u.
In MTW I used to get my arse banged while I was playing as the HRE. Another faction I found relatively irritating was (quite strangely) the Danes. It's not that her military strength would have been too weak (although pissing up wrong king-wannabe-jackasses seemed to do the trick, which is having myself destroyed big time) but my faction's treasury ended up dropping cold after a few miserable turns.
Although HRE was irritating as hell to play with (was my second MTW game, the first being an anti-triumph as the Britons) I have to admit that emptying HRE's Swedish bank accounts and sacking Rome was quite beautiful. Apparently the Pope didn't like my brightest idea that much and thus had me excommunicated - the little bastard!
Cowhead418
01-01-2006, 06:31
Damn, you must have an alternate-universe version of Medieval then. :san_tongue:
Seriously, though, I think you might be the first person I've heard say that. In the vast majority of games I and my friends played in vanilla MTW, the Caliphate would conquer all of Europe west of the Rhine, and would sometimes even have possession of the Holy Land (if they'd managed to catch the Eggies with their knickers down). From time to time a European faction (usually the Spanish, English or the HRE) would manage to keep the Caliphate in check, but that was pretty rare. Even if I myself was playing a western European faction (usually as the Spanish or English), I often was unsuccessful in stopping the Almos from crossing north over the Pyrenees.
Now it's true that in most of my games, the Almohads were eventually defeated--usually through a combination of faction re-emergences, invasions by a coalition of the surviving Catholic nations, and the Egyptians giving the Caliph a good hard shove out of Jarusalem and/or Cairo. Either way, however, a long and bloody campaign was almost always required to contain them, much less destroy them.
I was always confused why the Almohads were never a threat in my games, though they are the most powerful faction right now in my Hungarian campaign on the XL mod. On that mod, I'd have to say for a challenge try Serbia or Bohemia on Early. Serbia is hard because there are no rebels to expand to and you are surrounded by the Byzantines and Hungarians, not to mention that you only start out with one province that doesn't make much money. I haven't tried Bohemia but they are surrounded by the HRE, Poland, and Hungary so there is nowhere to go. The Scottish and Portuguese are also pretty tough.
The Scottish and Portuguese are also pretty tough.
I'll second that! They're still fun to play, though. Both factions have very...interesting starting positions. ~;)
matteus the inbred
01-03-2006, 12:54
well, Lugh and Come Together, i reappraise my opinion of the French and Turks, both are rewarding if you can get the economies and horse archers working respectively, i have very successful campaigns going on both now. Poland, on the other hand, has twice been a sad failure...! can't be bothered with Aragon, having one province to start is dull.
Sicily looks tough, but in fact is not; good heirs, lots of ships, lots of mercs available. invading north africa and using crusades can get you a huge cut-throat Mediterranean trading empire very quickly, which is just as well cos loyalty (and therefore tax rates) is often a problem, as your king is usually cut off from most of his provinces by sea! keeping him in Tunisia or 'on tour' seems to work best.
war with the Italians is inevitable though, and i really hate the unpredictability of sea battles.
following more experimenting with VI, i found Scotland to be impossible and got 'vikinged' to death immediately. the Vikings themselves are great fun, but i eventually gave up cos all the AI factions promptly allied with one another and never broke any alliances in 150 years of play. consequently it got to the point where almost any province i raided had in excess of 1500 men in it...
Keith_the_Great
01-05-2006, 04:55
Aragon's, you've got a large more powerfull spain and france on both side yet you've only got 1 provice.
then theres turkey, probably them 2 and after them maybe polish\danes
HRE: Financial problems, expansion, the Pope, Civil War, reconquest, expansion, the english and the russians, the Pope-Civil War-english-russians-danish-financial problems... :no:
I win with the HRE, but building only militia sergeants (the more cheap of make and support, with a good chance) and declining to fight the battles.
Lanemerkel1
01-06-2006, 01:32
(the other being Byz, too easy!)
easy?
say that when your playing byz and you've got crusades from all Catholic Nations, Jihads from all muslim nations and 4 full stacks of invaders from the only other orthodox heading for constantinople
I don't know where I screwed up but I really P.O.ed everyone
easy?
say that when your playing byz and you've got crusades from all Catholic Nations, Jihads from all muslim nations and 4 full stacks of invaders from the only other orthodox heading for constantinople
I don't know where I screwed up but I really P.O.ed everyone
You're the Byzantines, man. That means that pretty much everyone is gunning for you no matter what. ~D
Seriously, though, it makes a certain amount of sense when you think about it. You're the defender of Christiandom in the East, so all the Muslims are gunning for you. The Catholics in the west and the Russians in the north both envy your wealth, resent your strength, and want the glory of defending Christiandom (from both the Saracens and the barbarian hordes of the Asian steppes) for themselves. And everyone wants Constantinople--both for its immense riches, and for the status conveyed upon the master of such a magnificient city. In short, everyone wants a piece of you!
Lanemerkel1
01-06-2006, 16:21
You're the Byzantines, man. That means that pretty much everyone is gunning for you no matter what. ~D
Seriously, though, it makes a certain amount of sense when you think about it. You're the defender of Christiandom in the East, so all the Muslims are gunning for you. The Catholics in the west and the Russians in the north both envy your wealth, resent your strength, and want the glory of defending Christiandom (from both the Saracens and the barbarian hordes of the Asian steppes) for themselves. And everyone wants Constantinople--both for its immense riches, and for the status conveyed upon the master of such a magnificient city. In short, everyone wants a piece of you!
I'm in the middle of the early game, the horde hasn't even appeared yet, but you pretty much got everything else right
Well historically, this was pretty much the case as well. The "Franks" of western and central Europe greatly coveted the Empire's wealth, and actually sacked the city during one of the Crusades (I want to say the 2nd Crusade, but I could be wrong there). And taking Constantinople had been a major goal of the Islamic Caliphs for over 700 years before the city finally fell to the Ottomans in 1453.
matteus the inbred
01-06-2006, 17:39
I want to say the 2nd Crusade, but I could be wrong there
Fourth Crusade, 1204, but apart from that, dead right. The city fell in 1453 because a jealous and otherwise occupied Europe would not send enough troops...the Italians only sent troops (too late) for the money they expected to get, and on the condition that the Byzantines convert to the Catholic church. The Turks broke through on their final desperate assault, and wouldn't have had a chance had an Italian fleet and a couple of thousand more professional soldiers been there.
The initial expansion of Islam was largely halted due to their inability to take Constantinople in the 8th century.
Ironically, Byzantium is the only faction i haven't tried yet on the grounds that it's too strong...maybe time for a rethink. I should trust games developers more...!
Thanks matteus; I knew the 2nd Crusade didn't really sound right, but I just couldn't remember which one it actually was.
I must admit I'm surprised you haven't played as the Byz yet. I highly recommend giving them a try--especially now that you've been playing Medieval for a while. (They're definitely not a faction for players just learning the game; something I found out the hard way!) They have a lot of unique units, a lot of provinces, and you're at the crossroads of the known world--which means you have a LOT to keep track of! Playing the Byzantines is sort of the equivalent of trying to see how many eggs you can juggle at once. :laugh4: :juggle2:
matteus the inbred
01-06-2006, 18:06
yeah, i'm surprised at me too! my initial reaction once getting the game was...'right, i've played loads of STW, this'll be a doddle, what's the hardest faction?'
after getting creamed with whoever-it-was, went back and read the manual...! Byz sounds a bit like the HRE, which was fun, if somewhat frantic. i've got 5-6 campaigns on the go at the moment, but when they're done, i shall put on the purple and restore the Empire to it's rightful glory!
Lanemerkel1
01-06-2006, 18:15
Playing the Byzantines is sort of the equivalent of trying to see how many eggs you can juggle at once. :laugh4: :juggle2:
why do you think I have the juggle icon as my sig?
but it's not so bad
because when the crusades/jihads aren't aimed at me I can get alot of money using constantinople as a checkpoint for those tired crusade bastards (for some reason the crusaders keep paying me to let them pass through my land)
Byz sounds a bit like the HRE, which was fun, if somewhat frantic.
The difference is that as the Byz, you don't have to worry about being excommunicated every other turn. :2thumbsup:
Hmm, I think I may have to start another Byz campaign myself now. It's been a little while since I've done so!
Lanemerkel1
01-06-2006, 18:22
The difference is that as the Byz, you don't have to worry about being excommunicated every other turn. :2thumbsup:
Hmm, I think I may have to start another Byz campaign myself now. It's been a little while since I've done so!
I think whats different between me and any other byz players is that my main expansion occours NORTHWARD towards Novogrod, I also expand south and west but I usually leave Edessa, Tripoli, Antioch, and Palestine with the Eggys, because while they may be good income provinces, they cost more than they gain because your always the target of a crusade
I think whats different between me and any other byz players is that my main expansion occours NORTHWARD towards Novogrod, I also expand south and west but I usually leave Edessa, Tripoli, Antioch, and Palestine with the Eggys, because while they may be good income provinces, they cost more than they gain because your always the target of a crusade
That's a good point, but I usually take the Holy Land anyway, for 2 reasons:
1.) If I don't take them, the Eggies often become ridiculously powerful, as all that income lets them afford those huge multiple army stacks on our borders....
2.) As God's co-Vice-Regent on Earth, I feel it's my holy duty to take Outremer and safeguard it against the Muslim infedels for the sake all Christians everywhere. (Of course, I feel the same way when I play as the Eggies, except then I must drive out the Frankish barbarians.) ~D
HRE HRE HRE HRE HRE!!!!!!!!!
i may not be the best of players but i find the HRE to disorganized. its poor resources and amount of land to go with them are just discouraging.
_Aetius_
01-07-2006, 07:28
HRE HRE HRE HRE HRE!!!!!!!!!
i may not be the best of players but i find the HRE to disorganized. its poor resources and amount of land to go with them are just discouraging.
The HRE look very hard, infact they are difficult because you need abit of luck in the early years, but it has the potential to be rich and powerful if governed correctly.
You need to mirco-manage everything abit, assign governerships to good governors (4+ acumen atleast) to maximise profit, build watch towers and border forts in all provinces early on and make taxes as high as possible without causing rebellions.
Then its a matter of making as many alliances as possible and building armies, the frontiers are to long for you defend all of it so I suggest a major army in Burgundy or Lorraine to keep an eye on the French and a major army in Austria to watch the Hungarians and Poles, its also wise to have forces in Saxony because the Danes can get troublesome. Try and maintain garrisons and make as much money as possible, what your avoiding is losing alot of territory and thus civil war. Your bound to lose some territory but aslong as you can hold your own the damage will be minimal.
Once youve weathered any immediate danger, invade Italy to get access to rich trading provinces which the HRE lacks and your sorted really.
Anyway this belongs partly in the guides section, but the HRE isnt all that difficult, I think its the most satisfying faction to do well with due to the amount of effort you have to put in.
_Aetius_
01-07-2006, 07:40
Fourth Crusade, 1204, but apart from that, dead right. The city fell in 1453 because a jealous and otherwise occupied Europe would not send enough troops...the Italians only sent troops (too late) for the money they expected to get, and on the condition that the Byzantines convert to the Catholic church. The Turks broke through on their final desperate assault, and wouldn't have had a chance had an Italian fleet and a couple of thousand more professional soldiers been there.
The initial expansion of Islam was largely halted due to their inability to take Constantinople in the 8th century.
Ironically, Byzantium is the only faction i haven't tried yet on the grounds that it's too strong...maybe time for a rethink. I should trust games developers more...!
I generally agree with you, but personally I don't believe the west was jealous of Byzantium per-se (certainly not the last 250 years of its history) but more they just didnt care about its plight. Everybody knows the crusades had about 1% to do with the preservation of Byzantium and was just a vehicle for pure imperialism, aside from that the vast majority of aid came coupled with self-interest. Helping the Eastern Christians was a pious sounding excuse for war I suppose.
On the whole the west could of helped alot more than it did, but if you look at it from their point of view why should they travel the other side of Europe to help a bunch of heretic Greeks? Where the Venetians and Genoese were concerned, whatever was financially profitable was the right decision, frankly i'm confused why either sent aid to byzantium at the end, there was little in it for them and the Turks were bound to prevail sooner or later anyway.
Anyway as for the faction, i've gone the Byzantines many many more times than any other, mainly because it really does change everytime you play as them, i've had totally contrasting games, sometimes i've been hanging on for dear life sometimes I have room to breathe and consolidate and who knows what direction the Mongols might choose to attack. If you fear they are to easy then I strongly suggest trying them in the high and late periods and trying to reconquer everything that had been lost, big challenge but loads of fun. :bow:
because when the crusades/jihads aren't aimed at me I can get alot of money using constantinople as a checkpoint for those tired crusade bastards (for some reason the crusaders keep paying me to let them pass through my land)
No kidding? I don't remember the Crusades paying me to pass through their land (historically they certainly didn't!). I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for that as my new Byzantine game progresses....
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