Damm Spanish Jinets!

[Legorreto]

I am playing Almohads-Easy-Early in XL Mod (Great, by the way!). I am having a terrible time fighting this Spanish Jinets... THEY ARE UNBEATABLE!!!... They are giving me a very hard time. Although I have floowed the recommendations of training lots os Almohad Urban Milita and other specific units seems to be they are still not enough to beat the SJ. I can`t make it beyond Cordoba!

I have also created spear units and desert archers, as well as some Desert Cavalry but... still nothing (this last ones have the lowest morale) and lost some High Star Generals and Heirs as well (including El Cid, Bribed early in the game)

I am still far from getting Camels but I have luckly made it safe for my lands by building boats and controling the outh waters of Spain, so that helps keeping this Spanish off.

I wonder what battle strategies would you recommend to face this SJ as they are a very expensive-to-fight enemies until I get those Camels.

Thanks in advance

[Grey_Fox]

Concentrated archer fire and Ghulam Cavalry. Send one ghulam out in a wide flanking maneuvre to get behind the Jinete then send another straight at it's front. The Jinete will skirmish straight into the first Ghulam.

[rvg]

Archers, archers, and more archers. Jinete is easily THE most annoying unit in the game, but thankfully archers take care of them quite nicely.

[Mithrandir]

Whatever 2 units you can use to manouvre

[lilljonas]

Make sure you outnumber them with your ridiculously cheap infantry, and then try to surround them. You'll lose a lot of bodies, but once they're down, they'll stay down. And don't let the spaniards build up for too long, or you'll face entire stacks of 'em, that's reeeeally annoying.

Oh, and archers are golden. I still have nightmares of my unsupported viking infantry armies running for eternity after those silly mounted spanish troops....:san_embarassed:

[.:vVv:.Monkey]

Actually, I think the Horse Archers are more annoying, the Jinets have like 4-5 javelins each? The archers have 28 arrows and they keep on shooting and running away as soon as you move towards them. All I can do is to send Light cavalry against them to match their speed and drive them off the map :)

[Weebeast]

Train Murabitin Horsemen (not sure if that's the name) or whatever you call that skinny mounted unit. It's a new unit I think. They're as fast as Jinetes. Javelins are deadly.

My 8-star german warriors died cus of them. It was French though. :(

[miho]

Jinnetes are great. They are among my favourite units but they are very,very,very annoying when you're fighting against them. The best weapon against any horse archer and jinnetes are foot archers so just spam desert archers and you'll kill them.

[Martok]

Jinnetes are great. They are among my favourite units but they are very,very,very annoying when you're fighting against them. The best weapon against any horse archer and jinnetes are foot archers so just spam desert archers and you'll kill them.


Jinettes are one of my favorite units too; yet another reason I enjoy playing as the Spanish! As for fighting against them, however, I deal with them the same way I deal with almost all MM's (mounted missle units). I employ foot archers on my flanks to pepper them with arrows (which usually keeps them at a distance), and/or I use 2 units of cavalry (preferably light cav) to pin them down and slaughter them.

Ironically, I've found foot archers to be even more effective against Jinettes than against other MM's. The reason for this is that since Jinettes chuck javelins instead of shooting arrows, they must close to within a much shorter distance of their foes. Which means that in my battles against them, they either have to wither storms of arrows as they close in on my position, thus taking heavy losses; or they get scared and never come within range of my archers at all, and therefore don't get close enough to unleash their ammo on my army. :san_grin: The trick is to have enough archers (preferably, at least one unit for every enemy Jin unit), and to position your archers so that they can start shooting the Jins before they get close enough to start throwing their javelins at you (hence why I tend to place them on my flanks). Yes, I know that placing archers on your flanks is a risky maneuver, but against Jinettes (and MM's in general), it usually pays off--at least in my experience.

[miho]

You just need to be careful cause they can still charge in melee.

[Knight Templar]

You have three methods:

1.
Whatever 2 units you can use to manouvre
2. foot archers in front of nubian spearmen or AUM
3. as you play with Almos, you are the only faction that can train Berber Camels (longer range, better melee stats vs Sp Jinetins)

[ajaxfetish]

I find jinettes much more annoying than most mounted missile troops because their javelins do so much more damage than arrows, and because they have decent melee stats, so units I could chase them with like saharan or murabitin cavalry can't take them either. I'll echo the sentiment of LOTS of archers, and be willing to lose some cheap infantry because even with the arrow fire they can still get close enough to rain death on your line. Put some nubian or muwahid spears, or AUM in front of your archers, possibly on loose formation, to absorb the damage while you wear them down.

You can also do some damage with your own harassment units, like faris or berber camels, but with faris make sure you micromanage enough to stay out of their range.

Ajax

[Martok]

You just need to be careful cause they can still charge in melee.


Yeah, you'll still want to have some spears handy so that they can deal with any Jinettes that are brave enough to ride through the missile storm and charge your archers. In fact, when fighting an army that has a large number of Jins and/or other MM's, the left and right wings of my army actually tend to be stronger than my center. I don't do this on purpose, exactly, but it usually winds up working out that way. Because of all the archers, spearmen, light cav, and any other troops I often need to station on my flanks to take care of MM's, it leaves my center somewhat deprived of units (and therefore relatively weak) simply by default.

[LoboSoulman]

Archers of course or just sacrifice some crap infantry by making them loose formation get as near as you can and let them stand there and let the jinjets throw there javelins.
Then take them out with your spearmen/infantry.
I cant really remember but i played as the almohads and I beat them quite easily....

[ajaxfetish]

Whatever 2 units you can use to manouvre
Wait a second. Didn't you mean to say 'camels'? :san_huh:

Ajax

[Martok]

Wait a second. Didn't you mean to say 'camels'? :san_huh:

Ajax


In Legorreto's specific case, yes, camels are probably be what he should use if they were available to him (which they're not, if I understood him correctly). I believe Mithrandir was directing his post at everyone, however, which is why he simply said "units" instead. He was basically saying to use 2 units of your fastest cavalry to pin down the Jinettes in a classic hammer-anvil maneuver. So if you were the French/English fighting Jinnettes, for example, you'd probably want to use Hobilars or Mounted Seargents to pin them down.

[Microwavegerbil]

Also, Mithrandir always says "camels".:san_rolleyes:

[Martok]

Also, Mithrandir always says "camels".:san_rolleyes:


True. I know he is rather fond of the Almohads in multiplayer battles!

[Mithrandir]

hehe, good to see my almos made some impression on some people :).

Haven't played in ages though..too bad :(. My almos were formidable...especially vs people who thought camels sucked :).

However, this time I was referring to any 2 units, not even cavelry.

Position the jinette's target unit on the flank of another, make sure there is enough space between them, pull them back so the jinettes will follow, and position the other unit right behind the jinettes. always make sure the flanking unit doesn't approach the jinettes from the sides though.

[Martok]

hehe, good to see my almos made some impression on some people :).

Well given you that tout them almost constantly, it'd be hard to not pick up on it after a while. :san_tongue:



Haven't played in ages though..too bad :(. My almos were formidable...especially vs people who thought camels sucked :).


I suspect a lot of people make that mistake who haven't played much against--or even with--Muslim factions. Well, maybe they'll learn eventually. :san_grin:



However, this time I was referring to any 2 units, not even cavelry.


I figured as much. It's just that with Jinnettes, that usually winds up meaning you need some type of cavalry anyway--unless you have exeptionally fast infantry that can also hold their ground against Jins....

[ajaxfetish]

Muwahids might fit that description (besides being cheap enough to afford to lose in the process).

Ajax

[Martok]

Actually, that's a very good point, Ajax. Muwahids could be the trick against Jinettes. The problem is, if Legorreto can't train Berber Camels yet, then there's a good chance he can't train Muwahids yet either. But if he *does* have a few of those guys lying around, they just might work....

[Knight Templar]

Actually, that's a very good point, Ajax. Muwahids could be the trick against Jinettes. The problem is, if Legorreto can't train Berber Camels yet, then there's a good chance he can't train Muwahids yet either. But if he *does* have a few of those guys lying around, they just might work....

Not neccessary. Almos start with Keep in Cordoba, IIRC, and all you have to do is to build Spearmaker's Workshop (4 years) and you can train Muhawids. The problem with Berber Camels is that can be trained only in African provinces (except Egypt) where you don't have Keeps yet.
Also, Nubian spearmen should do fine if you can't train Muhawids yet.

[Martok]

Not neccessary. Almos start with Keep in Cordoba, IIRC, and all you have to do is to build Spearmaker's Workshop (4 years) and you can train Muhawids. The problem with Berber Camels is that can be trained only in African provinces (except Egypt) where you don't have Keeps yet.P


[slaps self] Sheesh, I didn't think of that. (Which is particularly sad given that I play as the Spanish all the time, and am therefore well aware Cordoba has a keep.) :san_rolleyes: Yeah, I would definitely go with Muwahids then.



Also, Nubian spearmen should do fine if you can't train Muhawids yet.


I somewhat disagree with that. I mean yes, go ahead and use Nubians if that's all you can get at the moment, but in my experience they're little better than vanilla Catholic spearmen. Yes, they're supposedly more disciplined, but they don't seem to hold up terribly well against cavalry except for maybe camels and Saharan cav. Against Jinettes (who have decent melee abilities for light cav), Nubian spearmen tend to fair rather poorly, at least in my experience.

[Legorreto]

Ok, this is the scenario now:

After beeing kicked of Iberic Penninsula I re ordered my troops by securing the surrounding waters and simply eliminating all Spanish boats (and others, too!) and looked up the east and managed to kick Egypts lands. Very succesful campaign all through Sinai. At Egypt I got to train some Camel Warriors. Stayed some turns quietly only enjoyng my now increaased income thanks to Egypt and then riase buildings to get Camel Berbers and more Almohad Urban Militia. (this all ,though, took me about 21 turns... but worth it!)

I raised three armies of 16 units each (1.- 16 CW, 2.- CB, AUM, DA, Cav and 3.- AUM, Cav) Plus some other spare units of spears, Regular Urban Militia and 2 Bodygards Units (7* and 6* Princes) Then I took the chance and invaded Granada. They decided not to figth and retreated to Murcia. I moved some troops to Murcia and the same happened. I am now hopping to move to Cordoba, but want to get more renforcements of CB and CW to freight this SJ's...hope it works.

I'll follow your suggestions (thanks to all) and if there is anything else you can add I'll be pleased to pay most attention and follow any possible recommendations as I want to get all Iberic Penninsula in one single shot, so they do not get chance to rest... ALL THE WAY TO FRENCH BORDER!!!!

[Legorreto]

Well, here`s how I am doing so far...

It's around 1190 and I have not yet defeated Spanish. They are a real pain in the butt. I am still stocked in North Africa and my eastern border is Egypt, I also control Malta and Crete. Also control north african coast and Gibraltar Pass which has helped me a lot to avoid spanish to invade my homelands.

Within the last 20 turns, my beloved friends, the Spanish, and I have sustained a continuous war in South Spain. Me invading Cordoba and Grenada and in some few ocasions reached Portugal and Alvegre. But when they reenforce again, they kick me out of the peninsula again and that's the way it has been all this time. I have even successfully repelled a Crusade already to Cordoba but lost the province later. I have killed their King already twice and lost about 6 Princes (either killed in battle or captured and executed)

My last position is Morocco again. Spanish have managed to reach all the way through France and just about to enter Italy. Although their marine forces are very weak, they control a good coastal line from Spain to Italy including Cerdena.

At the moment the biggest forces are Spanish (of course), Egypt (from Sinai through Novogord - they kicked me out once using Armenian Cav), Byzantine, HRE and English (they control their islands and Scandinavia. Then me... The rest of the factions are spreed out and some other rebellions going on.

I am thinking of two options:
1.- Jihad, or
2.- Build such an exceptional big army that even God fears me

Egypt is not an option for me so far, as I have such a long peaceful relation and a great sea commerce line with them. At the moment my economics are very good. I have reached 80% agriculture in all provinces and stablish commercial links with Egypt, Byzantines, Venetians and Genoeses; and my provinces all have highest loyalty and taxing at 200%, developed mining and some Mesquite.

So money is not an issue here... I repeatedly appear as the highest income in the game

I await for suggestions as I am basically stocked like I began, but expect to enlarge. Should I face to other Factions like Italians or Byzantines or same Egypt? Should I insist with the Spanish till defeat them or at least to achieve the peninsula? Should I just wait for more turns and get richer to build the greatest army?

[Ludens]

I would not endanger your alliances or oversea trades by starting a new war. Instead, I would focus on bringing this one to conclusion. I suggest combining a big army with a jihad, and then executing a blitzkrieg. Launch an attack deep into the penninsula, ignoring their fortifications, but destroying their armies and interrupting their production before they can respond. Then you can settle back and conquer their provinces at leisure. Without their homeland they will be severly weakened.

[Keith_the_Great]

hehe yeah their a pain alright

[Roark]

Yeah, waste those Catholics and get your hands on some iron-rich provinces. You need to take and keep Cordoba, and get some boats in the water, to minimise the number of provinces you have to defend. Then consolidate for a bit and close in on the northerly Spanish provinces, taking Portugal last of all (because of its inherent rebelliousness).

Has anyone mentioned Faris yet, to counter the Jinettes? 28 missiles vs 4, and at much longer range. They'll dominate the Jinettes from afar or in melee (although you probably won't get the chance to duke it out with them in close quarters).

[Weebeast]

Why haven't I seen you use Murabitins yet? Give the spanish some javelin action too. Put your best infantry in front of them and let the murabitins chuck those javelins. They tend to rout so don't let them be touched.

[Third spearman from the left]

Hi there, my suggestion is less to do with tactics and more to with the movement of your troops. If I were you (nice and warm in mexico:laugh4: ) I'd try to hit the Spanish from a different direction. Moving up through spain is hard because the Spanish can bring in troops from any number of provinces. Try attacking them from one of there newly taken lands and head towards spain from the top taking their iron rich lands on the way.

good luck!

[Legorreto]

Year 1238

I have defeat the Spanish in their homelands. I have reached all the way through Navarra and Aragon, very difficultly but finally mine. Though the spanish have already extended and eliminated the French and HRE and just about to extend to Italy and England. They control the northern seas and have some deployments in the Med Sea (nothing important really)

The Portuguese have not yet been a problem. Only 1 single rebellion and very easy. I guess they would be calmed as I have a good garrison of AUM and Saharan Cav to support the rebellions. My actual problem is Aragon, as they have had three rebellions already during 5 years of control over them, and have forced me to increase my troops in their province, but been defeated all of those.

I still control the northern African Coastline and iberia Peninsula as well, but the Bizantines have been very hard to beat in the seas. They have better and more boats than mines. IN average we have an even number of battles won, but that costs a lot to keep safe from any invasion and trying to keep up commerce as well.

The Egypts are my allies and have grown such an empire I wish them to remain so. This way, I would only have to worry about Europe and leave middle east quite for a while.

I have already experienced battles with better enemy forces using better armoured units and I wonder what would be the best way to beat them as the Almos don't really have any high armour units, though my AUM's are really good and have lots of valour (the least is 3, the highest 7)

I implore for suggestions.

[ajaxfetish]

AUM make a good battle line, along with spearmen/nubians/muwahids to hold off cavalry. Murabitins and Ghazis can counter their armor, Berber camels their cavalry, and with Saharan cav you can capture most all of their routers once they're broken and make them really pay for attacking you (units like Saharans or Steppe cav are great for pursuing fleeing generals as you actually have a chance of catching up with that one fleeing horseman who broke free of half your army and made a beeline for the edge of the map. He may still get away but pursuing him with anything else is pretty much a waste of time).

You've also got archers and horse archers with which to harass them. You don't have the same level of heavy shock troops some of your enemies will have, though in early AUM definitely compete, but you've got plenty of good specialty troops, they just need to be deployed and maneouvered carefully to get the most out of them. And without anymore jinettes, you're frustration level should be pleasantly much lower!

Ajax

[Lanemerkel1]

I don't see why everone hates these jinettes, usually my mounted sergeants can kick the crap out of them

[Geezer57]

I don't see why everone hates these jinettes, usually my mounted sergeants can kick the crap out of them
Actually, if you ignore the charge bonus, Jinettes and Mounted Seargents are the same in melee. Jinettes are fast and have javelins, MS are normal speed and have a big charge bonus - otherwise, the same.

[Cowhead418]

Jinettes can be demons from hell if you don't have much archer units on the battlefield, as I found out the hard way in my last battle...:sweatdrop:

[x-dANGEr]

I can't really remember right.. But as far as I do, I think I used Jihad to gain all Spain. I conquered Coduba, and when I got kicked out, I launched Jihda on it, then holded it. And kept doing so Till I reached Egypt in Europe. Egypt had taken Byzntium, Turkey and all those provinces.

Against Jinets, I took the losses from them at the early war, but then they developed no real threat. Just a combination of archers/light cav.