VI: Irish vs. Vikings

[GeoD]

Hi all!

While I've read quite a bit of good info on the forums (and some fantastic guides), this is my first post. But I have to tell all of you....this is one of the best forums that I've seen. No spamming, flaming...... good news.

Anyhow, I desparately need some help as I'm getting crushed in VI.

First, let me say that I'm fairly new to the game. Played 3 campaigns in MTW, and won #2 & #3 with 100% domination, so I THOUGHT I knew what I was doing! :san_rolleyes:

But I'm on my second campaign in VI, this time with Irish on normal (first time as Scots, and I gave up quickly). After I started the campaign I read in the forums to build boats to keep the Vikings from invading, but it's too late for me. :san_shocked:

My question is on strategy on defeating the Viking Huscarles. I've found that no Irish troops can take them mano on mano..... they all get crushed. But even when using proper flaking procedures (I think), I still don't do well. Here's an example...1 unit of Huscarles was attacking. I let my shield wall (100) take the attack and I used 2 units of Galloglasses, 1 on each flank, to attack. I also used 1 unit of Horsemen (40) to attack from the rear, although that did take awhile. I did win this battle, but I still lost almost 200 men (out of 260):san_shocked:

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help.

[Antagonist]

I played a VI campaign as the Irish and won, just trying to remember what strategies I used, it's been a while... :san_wink:

The Irish are perhaps the most difficult faction to play in VI because they lack "easy" units (at least, I have always found that the easiest units to use in TW are heavily-armoured shock troops and archers, neither of which the Irish have access to) and also because most of their units have low morale (which is stupid IMO) Still, it's possible to beat the Vikings. The Irish use lots of skirmish troops, which is probably not most people's preferred way of fighting but it can be very effective if used correctly.

The main thing I remember about my campaign is that Gallowglasses can, with the right upgrades and bonuses, function effectively as shock troops, and eventually I was able to pretty much steamroller anything with them, including Huscarles. I think the religious line of buildings is particularly important to the Irish because IIRC they give a morale bonus to units created in the region. Also try and upgrade your weapons and armour, Gallowglasses with max weapon upgrade are lethal. Oh, and boats. Build lots of ships, as naval superiority is a vital step on the path to victory, particularly in VI.

It's been such a long time since I played the VI campaign (didn't really like it TBH) that I'm probably mistaken in some of my recollections, but I do know that total victory with the Irish is possible, though a challenge.

Antagonist

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, GeoD! ~:wave:


Having played as the Vikings a bit, I can tell you what is probably the Irish's most deadly weapon against Huscarles: Kerns. You wouldn't think it to look at them (given that they're one of the skirmishing-type troops Antagonist just mentioned), but they can be very effective against heavy infantry. Their darts are armour-piercing, and they're fast enough to keep Huscarles (or just about any other infantry) from closing with them.

I had one battle where my 2 units of Viking Huscarles spent over an hour chasing down 3 units of Kerns. I eventually did catch up with them and won, but it was basically a Phyrric victory for me. The Kerns didn't stay in melee combat with me for very long before they turned and ran, so I didn't inflict that many casualties upon them--they lost maybe 1/4 of their men. I, on the other hand, had lost over 3/4 of my Huscarles, most of them to the Kerns' *@#%! darts. (Grrr.... :san_angry: .)

The bad news about Kerns is that they do seem to require a certain amount of micromanagement--you want to make sure they don't get cornered and caught in melee combat, or they will get slaughtered. If you can keep them on the move, though, you'll piss off the Vikings to no end as you merrily lead them all around the battle map while you pick off their guys one by one! :san_laugh:

[Microwavegerbil]

Yeah, pretty much what martok said. You don't ever wanna go head to head with Viking Huscarles until you have to. In my last Welsh Campaign I had a battle against a smaller Viking force in which I charged downhill with cav and very quickly routed all the Vikings except their King (who is a huscarl). Against the King I feinted a unit of horsemen near them to break their formation, and had a unit of celtic warriors charge downhill into their side. Immediately after I had two units of other horsemen charge the flanks. The King proceeded to kill every or rout every last man in that group. So I repeated the same thing with my remaining three units of horsemen, side charge, then a double rear charge with my other two units. The King handily cleared them out as well and won the battle with 15 or so men remaining. Before engaging the King the kill bar was full green, after mixing with him it had turned all the way red.

Needless to say, I always autocalc vs the King now, I get much less casualties that way.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think that must have also been the Jedi King phenomenom, because I don't think normal huscarles would hold up to that, but you never know they are pretty tough.

[IrishMike]

Huscarles are tough devils, but not that tough. UK is right. Must have come from Constantinople and learned the way of the jedi. Blasted jedis, sometimes you wish you could execute that code in Episode III and kill em all instantly.

[Microwavegerbil]

Yeah, he was 7 stars or so and had (I think) silver shields, this guy continued to piss me off for a long time.

[Geezer57]

Having played as the Vikings a bit, I can tell you what is probably the Irish's most deadly weapon against Huscarles: Kerns. You wouldn't think it to look at them (given that they're one of the skirmishing-type troops Antagonist just mentioned), but they can be very effective against heavy infantry. Their darts are armour-piercing, and they're fast enough to keep Huscarles (or just about any other infantry) from closing with them.
Kerns are what you use against Huscarles at the start, due to their low build requirements (Drinking Hall). As soon as you can, though, build some Bonnachts also - they need a Royal Palace. They're a 100-man unit, similar to Kerns, except for much better melee attack (5 vs. 2) and a single volley of heavy throwing spears instead of javelins (4 volleys). If you can pin a unit of Huscarles with an expendable unit (preferably spears or other holding types), and get the full Bonnacht volley on a stationary target, you'll see the enemy literally melt away. When they're out of ammo, charge them into the rear - they'll do much more damage than the average Irish unit. They still have low defense, armor, and morale values (same as Kerns), so don't just throw them into melee willy-nilly. If you can't flank/rear attack a pinned heavy enemy, skirmish with them instead. You'd be surprised how much easier Huscarles and Joms Vikings are to beat when they're exhausted!

[Loucipher]

True said, as I can back it up with my achievements as an Irish chieftain in my first-ever VI campaign.
Initial battles were fought mainly with Irish Dartmen, Spearmen and Kerns. Nonetheless I was able to pull a decent bodycount on enemy armies by exploiting the tactics elaborated on by my predecessors. Either halt an enemy unit with a Spearmen or other solid block of troops, then outflank with Kerns (if your target has armour) or Dartmen (if it hasn't). Then watch them fall as they get pelted from behind.
Once you get Bonnachts, you can use a "hammer and anvil" strategy with two of them. One unit of Bonnachts acts as an anvil - they wait for an incoming enemy, throw spears in his face, then receive the charge. The second one is the hammer - it gets on the flank/rear, throws spears in the back, then charges. In sum, enemy gets 200 thrown spears and same number of fighting men against him - something to be reckoned with. This tactic works on anything up to and including Viking Landsmenn, and once I managed to dispatch a unit of Saxon Huscarles, whose commander prematurely met his demise from a thrown Bonnacht spear...

[ajaxfetish]

You will also eventually get one definite heavy/shock unit when you can build mounted nobles, which will be another good unit to throw at their back. Also, as said, kerns, bonnachts, and gallowglasses while another unit holds them, but regardless you can expect to usually have higher casualties when fighting the Vikings. Just expect it, realize most of your troops are pretty cheap to begin with, and always fight with significant numerical superiority.

Ajax

[KrooK]

You got bad luck because they were leading by good general.
Normally they would run easy.
When you play Irish troops you have to remember about skirmish units.
When they attack you, use javelins and hide behind gallowglasses.
Normal huscarles should run soon - these with 7stars general are hard to defeat, but keep trying :2thumbsup: If you kill 7star general, it will be painful for enemy.

[ajaxfetish]

One more thought about bonnachts (may not apply to Kerns, I haven't used them much, and Martok's experience suggests they skirmish very well). Be sure to take your bonnachts off of skirmish. They'll run before they get off their massive volley, then they'll get hit in the back, then they'll fight hard but you'll lose much of the unit without getting to use their most powerful abilities. Micromanage them on hold formation to get one big volley and a charge, especially if you're hitting from the flank or rear.

Ajax

[Roark]

Great advice so far.

I love playing the Irish. Anytime I see a unit of Huscarles on the field of battle, I do my best to separate them from their army. Dartmen are good for this.

My formulaic strategy for Joms and Huscarles:

- Volleys of Kern javelins
- Charge Gallowglasses with slight wraparound on one flank
- Run Bonnachts to opposite flank, deliver volley of large javelins, and charge
- Run any horses to rear of Huscarles and charge
- Charge empty Kerns for extra morale penalty

[Ludens]

Normal huscarles should run soon - these with 7stars general are hard to defeat, but keep trying :2thumbsup: If you kill 7star general, it will be painful for enemy.
I second that. Once you kill their general they will become a lot less though. However, taking down a high-command general can be a pain, as they have multiple hitpoints. Fortunatly, valour does not protect against missiles.

Incidentally, all javelin troops have a range less than the skirmish distance, so you need to take them of skirmish for them to work. Put them back on again when the enemy charges.

[Gealai]

Hallo :laugh4:

I might add that it will help to attack under extreme weather conditions. Rain is good but is there a finer weather to destroy Husacerls than snowfall?

Heavily armored troops tire quickly in such conditions, archers get punished while the light troops and javelins & darts & heavy spears enjoy.


To ease micro you should use, if possible only a part of the army at once. This works well if you can counter the enemy cavalry reliably with our own and if your enemy has few archers or crossbows.

A light screen of Dartmen with Cavalry ready for support advances and pulls enemy troops out, while your second line, mostly Kerns stiffened by Gallows and Bonnachts prepares missile pockets.

Gealai

[Ghost of Rom]

Usually when I play against the AI I hold myself to certain rules. Such as I wont us Horse Archers to pick the hapless AI apart one piece at a time. But after a few battles against those Jedi viking generals who singlehandedly route hundred man units with impunity, I pretty much said anything goes here! One trick I used was to lure the vikings inland where I could surround them and keep them from sailing off when I attack. After awhile those Jedi's units are whittled down to nothing and they do eventually die. Preferably to a shower of javs or arrows. :viking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Another thing to bear in mind is that Vikings breed Huscarles, so they often have a couple of valour enhancing traits. Your Gallowglases are your best hand to hand fighters, try to have some with the weapon but not the armour upgrade as that will nulify the axe bonus the Huscarles get.

Also, consider Mercs. Saxon Huscarles are, pound for pound, the equel of their Viking cousans! Use the Sais against each other, or failing that see if you can get hold of some Welsh relations with longbows.

I can however testify that Royal Huscarles all seem to be Jedi, even the idiot no hoper inbreads. I've seen those guys take on thousands of peasants with about a 10/1 disadvantage and come out with barely a scratch.

[Ludens]

Your Gallowglases are your best hand to hand fighters, try to have some with the weapon but not the armour upgrade as that will nulify the axe bonus the Huscarles get.
Not quite. The AP bonus gives +1 attack for every 2 points of armour, so armour never makes units more vulnerable to AP.

So, if your Gallowglasses (base armour 2) have one armour upgrade (total armour 3), the Huscarles get +1 attack, nullifying the effect of the upgrade but not exceeding it. However, if you add another armour upgrade (total armour 4), the Huscarles still get +1 attack, so your Gallowglasses are better protected. The third and fourth amour upgrades will give +2 attack to the Huscarles, but the Gallowglas now have +3 or +4 armour, so they are still ahead.

(Though AP misiles work a bit differently, the principle is stil the same: armour upgrades are always useful, except when going into the desert.)

[Gealai]

Ludens is right

Armor will always increase your survival rate - it just makes your unit tire faster, expecially in the desert and in rough conditions like snow.
Against missiles armor helps much and as ludens pointed out even AP missiles will earn less when flying into an armored crowd.

All irish troops cry for armor upgrades, as they are all lacking in this regard, with expection of the Mounted Nobles and the armored spearmen.

Those Jedi vikings need careful, proper missile treatment. I still remember that one unit of mercenary Kerns killed far more than four units of value 4 Highlanders with cavalry support, charging over and over again into the rear, flanks, using the hill advantage against a full bodyguard unit led by a eight! star general with a valor of 10 . Not funny for sure.... :wall: