What book are you reading?

[Centurion1]

Ah i loved catch-22. Possibly the funniest war book i have ever read.

[Martok]

Am currently in the midst of reading the Orcs: First Blood Trilogy by Stan Nicholls. An interesting take on a stock fantasy race, wherein they're the protagonists and (most) humans are the rampaging marauders.

It's not the best fantasy literature I've ever read, but it's definitely not bad either. It's been keeping me turning to the next page on a pretty consistent basis.



Red Storm Rising

so far, about halfway through, its amazing.
That's probably my favorite Clancy novel, believe it or not (although Without Remorse and Debt of Honor come very close). :2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

Finished The Odyssey last night and am now moving on to the Aeneid.

[naut]

Defamation Act 2005. :wall:

[CountArach]

Defamation Act 2005. :wall:
I've heard that's a real page turner. The plot twist is excellent.

[Subotan]

Finished The Odyssey last night

I found the Odyssey to be a lot more gripping than I expected it would be. It read like a good fantasy novel, and not only that, but it felt like that since the Greeks actually believed in it, then it had a lot more meaning than you would normally get from a fantasy book.

[naut]

I've heard that's a real page turner. The plot twist is excellent.
A good sequel to the Trade Practices Act 1974.

[Hooahguy]

finishes Red Storm Rising
currently has the record for fastest Tom clancy novel i finished. started it on Wednesday, finished yesterday.
back to Cath-22.

[rajpoot]

The Last Wish. been trying to find it ever since I bought the Witcher. Finally had to get it shipped from the other side of the world, paying an arm and a leg.....but man I'm happy now :beam:

[Subotan]

I'm currently waiting for BPRD: The Black Goddess to come from Amazon.

I'm so excited :beam:

[Zradha Pahlavan]

High Crusade. Funny book it is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Freakonomics.

[CountArach]

Give Me Combat, which are the memoirs of Republican Spain's foreign minister during the war. Quite interesting, though I'm only up to what he was like in University.

[Ser Clegane]

Louis Fischer's Gandhi biography (almost finished) - quite an interesting read.

[CountArach]

Give Me Combat, which are the memoirs of Republican Spain's foreign minister during the war. Quite interesting, though I'm only up to what he was like in University.
Update: About 130 pages into it now... and I'm growing quite sick of the author's fawning over Russian revolutionary literature. Still, he gives a very interesting behind-the-scenes account of what was occurring in the League of Nations in 1935.

[CountArach]

Update: About 130 pages into it now... and I'm growing quite sick of the author's fawning over Russian revolutionary literature. Still, he gives a very interesting behind-the-scenes account of what was occurring in the League of Nations in 1935.
Finished it now... well, sort of. I skipped the last few chapters on China because:
1) They weren't relevant to my essay.
2) He was blind to human rights abuses, etc and was again completely fawning. This was just irritating so I stopped.

About to move on to one of Paul Preston's books on the Spanish Civil War.

[Furunculus]

Andrew Lamberts book on the admirals that shaped the royal navy, and thus made great britain:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Admirals-Andrew-D-Lambert/dp/057123156X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256567680&sr=1-2

very good so far, would thoroughly recommend it.

[Hooahguy]

just started Clear and Present Danger.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"The Expedition of Humphrey Clinker" by Tobias Smollet, born just down the road from me.

[Centurion1]

ciceros oration against catiline. Read it before but this is in latin. Part project, part fun.



Edit: had another book on my mind, oops

[Martok]

Am currently in the midst of reading the Orcs: First Blood Trilogy by Stan Nicholls. An interesting take on a stock fantasy race, wherein they're the protagonists and (most) humans are the rampaging marauders.

It's not the best fantasy literature I've ever read, but it's definitely not bad either. It's been keeping me turning to the next page on a pretty consistent basis.
I would like to downgrade my earlier assessment of this series. I'd been enjoying it overall, but the third (and final) book ended up being a huge disappointment.

It was everything the final entry in a trilogy should *not* be: It was anti-climactic, had little character development (and in some cases, characters displayed qualities that went almost completely against their pre-existing personality), the dialog was stilted, and the plot meandered more than than the Mississippi River.

I suspect that after the first two books (which are pretty decent), the author didn't know how to finish the story -- or if he did, then his execution was lacking. Either way, the ending was a big letdown compared to how the books started out.

I can recommend checking out the trilogy at your local library, but don't make the mistake I did of actually purchasing it. While far from horrible, it was definitely was not worth the money.



Tomorrow, I start on (re)reading Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. I first read it about six years ago, and really enjoyed it. I've since purchased my own copy earlier this year (I originally borrowed it from a friend), and am now finally ready to give it another go. Should be fun. :2thumbsup:

[the tokai]

Currently reading Victor Hugo's Les Miserables, Charitons Chaireas and Kallirhoë, a book containing some of Lenins essays and letters and a book of short story's by Lovecraft.

[Lemur]

Just finished re-reading Vernor Vinge's epic space-opera books, A Fire Upon the Deep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep) and A Deepness in the Sky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_deepness_in_the_sky). The first one is definitely better, but they're both masterpieces of weird ideas made flesh.

[CountArach]

Alright I'm biting the bullet. I have 4 months off Uni so plenty of time to read. I am once again embarking upon a grand re-reading of the Wheel of Time, towards which end I bought The Gathering Storm today.

[Martok]

Alright I'm biting the bullet. I have 4 months off Uni so plenty of time to read. I am once again embarking upon a grand re-reading of the Wheel of Time, towards which end I bought The Gathering Storm today.
Holy crap! I didn't realize Book Twelve was out already.

Gah. Now I have to decide if I want to go out and get it, or wait until all three final volumes are available. :sweatdrop:

[pevergreen]

Isn't the guy no longer with us.

:inquisitive:

I prefer Feist anyway.

On that note: Re-reading Magician (again) think this makes number 12 read through. :beam:

[Owen Glyndwr]

I'm currently reading Rome and its Enemies, a Penguin Book. Excellent quality, a good investment I think.

I'm nearly finished with that, and once I do, I'm probably going to go back and re-read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is my favorite book.

[CountArach]

Holy crap! I didn't realize Book Twelve was out already.
Released during the last week.

Isn't the guy no longer with us.
Robert Jordan did pass away, yes. However, his wife arranged for Brandon Sanderson to do the writing that Jordan didn't do before he died. The entire plot was already fleshed out, and various sections written, however.

[Subotan]

Back in Style: Dungeon, Zenith Vol. 3 - Lewis Trondheim, et al.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm currently reading Make Room, Make Room! by Harry Harrison. It's the book that Soylent Green is based off. Pretty good so far, the movie seems to be a decent adaptation about a third of the way through the book.

[Sevis]

I've discovered Poe recently, and have been reading his works, although very slowly. Now took a small break to get through "Mind Hacks", wonderful stuff.

[Ja'chyra]

I'm almost finished The Gathering Storm and while it isn't bad the new author has changed the personalities of all the main characters, and not for the better I think.

[Ja'chyra]

So I've just finished The Gathering Storm, what can I say?

I think the story has gone in the direction intended by Robert Jordan even if it's already past the 10 originally planned books. I think he's chosen a good place to split the books and there's not too much of the waffling that I saw in earlier books. Like all good stories there's periods of calm and action and twists that you may or may not see coming, still though my major grief is that he has changed almost all of the personalities and made them all, well, darker, more angry. Even Mat has become a darker character with Egwene becoming downright cold and Min being sidetracked into an almost inconsequential role. Some of this is a natural reflection of the story as it moves towards the final battle but I felt he could have eased us into the change throughout the book more than he has.

All in all though I don't grudge the money I paid for it and will be buying the other two to see the series ended.

[CountArach]

So I've just finished The Gathering Storm, what can I say?

I think the story has gone in the direction intended by Robert Jordan even if it's already past the 10 originally planned books. I think he's chosen a good place to split the books and there's not too much of the waffling that I saw in earlier books. Like all good stories there's periods of calm and action and twists that you may or may not see coming, still though my major grief is that he has changed almost all of the personalities and made them all, well, darker, more angry. Even Mat has become a darker character with Egwene becoming downright cold and Min being sidetracked into an almost inconsequential role. Some of this is a natural reflection of the story as it moves towards the final battle but I felt he could have eased us into the change throughout the book more than he has.

All in all though I don't grudge the money I paid for it and will be buying the other two to see the series ended.
I have yet to commence the grand re-reading that will lead me to the Gathering Storm, but I had found that by the end of Books 10 and 11 most of the characters were incredibly dark anyway. Though hearing that Mat changes is a bit depressing - he always seemed far more optimistic than everyone else to me.

[Martok]

Have just started reading Agincourt by Bernard Cornwell. I purchased a copy earlier this year, but hadn't gotten around to reading it til now. I've enjoyed most of his other works thus far, though, and am looking forward to it. As it's apparently one of his (relatively) rare stand-alone novels, it'll be interesting to see how it turns out.



So I've just finished The Gathering Storm, what can I say?

I think the story has gone in the direction intended by Robert Jordan even if it's already past the 10 originally planned books. I think he's chosen a good place to split the books and there's not too much of the waffling that I saw in earlier books. Like all good stories there's periods of calm and action and twists that you may or may not see coming, still though my major grief is that he has changed almost all of the personalities and made them all, well, darker, more angry. Even Mat has become a darker character with Egwene becoming downright cold and Min being sidetracked into an almost inconsequential role. Some of this is a natural reflection of the story as it moves towards the final battle but I felt he could have eased us into the change throughout the book more than he has.

All in all though I don't grudge the money I paid for it and will be buying the other two to see the series ended.
One of my good friends is in the middle of reading it right now. Thus far, his opinion largely coincides with your own, although I think he's probably enjoying it a little more than you did.

His main complaint at the moment is that the book has fewer scenes of internal dialogue & self-introspection. However, he acknowledges that this may have more to do with the necessarily increased pacing as the series races towards Tarmon Gaidon.


Personally, I think I'm going to wait until all three volumes are out. I've already read (and re-read) the WoT 3-4 times; at this point, it would take so long to get through all the books that I'm not sure I'd have the patience to do a re-read every single time another book comes out. (And yes, I would have to re-read the series for every new release, as I find it otherwise impossible to remember everything that's happened before.)

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
About to finish Barry Strauss's Trojan War. Recommended.
.

[Martok]

I'm now over halfway through Hood, the first novel in Stephen R. Lawhead's King Raven trilogy. I'm not quite sure what I think of it overall, but I am enjoying myself thus far. It's an interesting take on the Legend of Sherwood Forest.

[A Nerd]

I don't read much, and I can't often remember authors names but there have been a few that I really enjoyed. Carl Sandburg's Cornhuskers, the idiot by some russian guy, Jack Kerouac's Desolation Angels, some classics I read in High School like A Tale of Two Cities, Silas Marner and one teacher translated Hamlet and Macbeth to the class which was fascianating. I want to read Knights of the round table soon. It would make good beach reading. That's all I can think of at the moment.

edit: How could I forget Authur Millers Death of a Salesman!!!

[Ja'chyra]

I'm now over halfway through Hood, the first novel in Stephen R. Lawhead's King Raven trilogy. I'm not quite sure what I think of it overall, but I am enjoying myself thus far. It's an interesting take on the Legend of Sherwood Forest.

Have you read Lawheads Celtic trilogy? Can't remember what they were called now but they were entertaining if not great writing.

[Martok]

Have you read Lawheads Celtic trilogy? Can't remember what they were called now but they were entertaining if not great writing.
Are you referring to the Albion trilogy, or the Celtic Crusades trilogy? Either way, the answer is "yes, I've read it" -- I'm a big Lawhead fan. :yes:


One thing to add: For those who (understandably) tend to be turned off by Lawhead's typically strong emphasis on Christianity in his novels, it may be worth noting that he seems to have turned down the "volume" in this trilogy. Not that it doesn't still play a fairly important part, but it's not as ubiquitous as in a lot of his other novels (such as his Celtic Crusades or Pendragon Cycle books).

Incidentally, I've already finished Hood and have moved onto Scarlet. 'Twill be interesting to see how this one goes, since it appears to be largely narrated from Will's point of view.

[CountArach]

The QI Book of General Ignorance. Such a great tv show and the book is basically a reference source for those of us who reference the show all the time in day-to-day conversation.

[Centurion1]

Am rereading through the clavell series AND George R.R. Martin's famous series.

anyone else a fan of martin of clavell, clavell is one of my top authors and i daresay i enjoy martin.

Im reading the asian saga of clavell and im on Gai-jin (ive read them all before though) and im on a feast for crows in Martin.

I hear martins book is out very soon at my local library reserving my copy? anyone care to disprove me on that, my library may just be preparing for someth9ing six months from now.

[Myrddraal]

This may seem incredibly predictable to people like CountArach and Ja'chyra and those other members who know the books, but I'm currently re-reading the Wheel of Time books. I haven't yet read the new installment, but seeing as I hadn't read the books in so long I thought I'd re-read the series before I bought the new book. There's a lot of stuff I had forgotten. So far my (newly decided) favourite is the Shadow Rising. Robert Jordan has started to repeat himself a lot in this book, but the plot lines are great:

Spoil tags used for their intended purpose:
Rhuidean and the glimpse of the age of legends is gripping, and the whole concept of a society so bound up in rules of honour and obligation. So proud of themselves, so superior to the 'Lost Ones' and the 'Wetlanders' and yet who by their own rules would be shamed to the core if they knew their history.


A stir ran through the men around Mandein. Most of them liked the Jenn claiming to be Aiel no better than he did. “Why have you called us here?” he demanded, though it burned his tongue to admit being summoned.
Instead of answering, Dermon said, “Why do you not carry a sword?” That brought angry mutters.
“It is forbidden,” Mandein growled. “Even Jenn should know that.”

The clan chiefs chosen because they are humble enough to face it. It's a brilliantly constructed plot.


“Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”
“Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da’shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid.”
Her hand tightened painfully in his hair. “The citizens have already fled Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da’shain yet have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you.”
“As you say,” he said reluctantly. “We will care for what you have given into our charge until you want them again.”
“Of course. The things we gave you.” She smiled at him and loosened her grip, smoothing his hair once more before folding her hands. “You will carry the . . . things . . . to safety, Jonai. Keep moving, always moving, until you find a place of safety, where no one can harm you.”
“As you say, Aes Sedai.”
“What of Coumin, Jonai? Has he calmed?”
He did not know any way but to tell her; he would rather have bitten his tongue out. “My father is hiding somewhere in the city. He tried to talk us into . . . resisting. He would not listen, Aes Sedai. He would not listen. He found an old shocklance somewhere, and . . . .” He could not go on. He expected her to be angry, but her eyes glistened with tears.
“Keep the Covenant, Jonai. If the Da’shain lose everything else, see they keep the Way of the Leaf. Promise me.”
“Of course, Aes Sedai,” he said, shocked. The Covenant was the Aiel, and the Aiel were the Covenant; to abandon the Way would be to abandon what they were.

And then of course there's Perrin and Fain's sub plot and the attacks on Emonds Field, also a classic. Corny as hell, but great nonetheless.

[Secura]

The QI Book of General Ignorance. Such a great tv show and the book is basically a reference source for those of us who reference the show all the time in day-to-day conversation.

I think I have that... the book with a foreword by Stephen Fry, four words by Alan Davies?

Fantastic book, a veritable treasure of completely useless, yet still quite interesting, trivia.

[Rhyfelwyr]

How could I forget Authur Millers Death of a Salesman!!!

Ah, how could I forget about that classic. I still remember all the characters... Willie, Linda, Biff...

Along with the Great Gatsby (gah! but the film is hilarious where the car runs over the woman's head), that was what my Higher English was about.

[Subotan]

The Rise and Fall of Communism - Archie Brown

[A Nerd]

(Death of a Salesmen) The flash-backs and all the mood they evoked was just SOOOO brilliantly inspireing! Oh Ben, what a perfect life it would have been if I hadn't been so wrongly practical and considerate...

[CountArach]

This may seem incredibly predictable to people like CountArach and Ja'chyra and those other members who know the books, but I'm currently re-reading the Wheel of Time books.
Gah! I have to do this again! I also haven't read the latest one, I suspect the next one will also be release by the time I get up to it.

Currently getting through Pride and Prejudice and Zombies for some very light-hearted reading.

[Myrddraal]

I read the back of that and the idea seemed appealing, but I read a few pages and though that it looked like the execution was going to make it a boring read... :shrug:

[Scienter]

I'm reading The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. I saw the movie and liked it so much that I wanted to read the book.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
History of the Goths by Herwig Wolfram (read The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples first.) :book2:
.

[Subotan]

Porterhouse Blue, by Tom Sharpe

[naut]

Slaughterhouse 5, by Vonnegut again. I love Vonnegut. :yes:

[Centurion1]

^ love that book.....

catch-22

[Ja'chyra]

This may seem incredibly predictable to people like CountArach and Ja'chyra and those other members who know the books, but I'm currently re-reading the Wheel of Time books. I haven't yet read the new installment, but seeing as I hadn't read the books in so long I thought I'd re-read the series before I bought the new book. There's a lot of stuff I had forgotten. So far my (newly decided) favourite is the Shadow Rising. Robert Jordan has started to repeat himself a lot in this book, but the plot lines are great:



I tend to do this when a new book comes out for a series I like.

[Decker]

Can somebody tell me what makes the Wheel of Time Books good? I've seen many many people mention that they are good and I see them in packs at my local book stores but I don't get what makes em good?? (I also don't want to read reviews on Amazon because of spoilers).

[naut]

Can somebody tell me what makes the Wheel of Time Books good? I've seen many many people mention that they are good and I see them in packs at my local book stores but I don't get what makes em good?? (I also don't want to read reviews on Amazon because of spoilers).
They're meant to good. A few of my friends like them, from what they've said about them they sound pretty good.

[CountArach]

Can somebody tell me what makes the Wheel of Time Books good? I've seen many many people mention that they are good and I see them in packs at my local book stores but I don't get what makes em good?? (I also don't want to read reviews on Amazon because of spoilers).
The world is incredibly deep, the plotlines are intertwined to a level I haven't seen before, all teh characters have their own goals and pursue them relentlessly and (what I like best of all) - sometimes things go wrong for the main characters and they have to work within those constraints. The characters seem incredibly human (except some of the women, but for the most part) and all of them have some character flaw.

[Decker]

The world is incredibly deep, the plotlines are intertwined to a level I haven't seen before, all teh characters have their own goals and pursue them relentlessly and (what I like best of all) - sometimes things go wrong for the main characters and they have to work within those constraints. The characters seem incredibly human (except some of the women, but for the most part) and all of them have some character flaw.Ah, so it's a fully fleshed out world with all the stuff one see's in Tolkien's work? (Just using him as a reference.) Alright, and since I see that there are quite a few books in the Wheel of Time series, are they all seperate storylines with different characters each time? I am asking because at my local book stores they are packeged into sets of four.

I also just finished reading The Art of War by Sun Tzu. I'll say while he covered quite a few topics in the simplist of ways I don't see how this is a huge classic. Granted it is a good read and a fast one at that, but it just seems little overrated, it's good but not great/legendary.

[drone]

I also just finished reading The Art of War by Sun Tzu. I'll say while he covered quite a few topics in the simplist of ways I don't see how this is a huge classic. Granted it is a good read and a fast one at that, but it just seems little overrated, it's good but not great/legendary.
The simplicity is the key. Being able to relate the simple scenarios to modern situations is the challenge.

Started Anathem, another Neal Stephenson book.

[Cyclops]

...
I also just finished reading The Art of War by Sun Tzu. I'll say while he covered quite a few topics in the simplist of ways I don't see how this is a huge classic. Granted it is a good read and a fast one at that, but it just seems little overrated, it's good but not great/legendary.

Context.

He was up against a literary culture with a lot of bogus stuff in it like "if the wind is in the east the army camped on the plain will be victorious, but if the goose is sacrificed and its liver has a spot do not pass Go".

The bit where he says "make decisions based on information from people with military knowledge" is golden, a great moment in military theory: likewise when he does the cost/risk analysis of paying bribes to spies. Its obvious to us but he's the giant who first expressed this rational maxim.

It's the moment war stops being a noble pastime and becomes a profession. You're very right it is simple, its very stripped back because it has no ********.

I'm awaiting the third Cornish book, lovely little series that with the Lamplighters. In the meantime I'm reading everything I can find on Phillip 2 of Macedon.

[woad&fangs]

I just finished The Travels of Marco Polo. I'm not sure what to read next but I'm leaning towards Bram Stoker's Dracula.

[Marshal Murat]

Reading "Assegai" by Wilbur Smith. Some escapist British empire literature isn't too bad these days. Also working on the biography of Mandela, which is one thick book as you might imagine.

[Ser Clegane]

The Fall of the West - the Death of the Roman Superpower by Adrian Goldsworthy, Last Night in Twisted River by John Irving is next.

[Martok]

I'm halfway through By Schism Rent Asunder, the second book in David Weber's Safehold series. I'm definitely enjoying it, almost more so than even his Honor Harrington novels; I haven't plowed through the pages of a book at this frenetic a pace in a while!

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Lessee...

Herwig Wolfram's History of the Goths is awaiting completion. Miranda Carter's triple biography of George, Nikolai [sic.] and Wilhelm is a leisurely reading. For professional or academic purposes I'm reading On Tyranny: An Interpretation of Xenphon's Hiero by Leo Strauss and re-reading (since I'm working on translating it) W. Sidney Allen's Vox Graeca: The Pronunciation of Classical Greek. Bed times are, as has become habitual for a few years now, accompanied by Tolkien, presently The Return of the Shadow, which is the first volume of the textual history of The Lord of the Rings, as the familiar ones would recognize.

It's great to be able to read again! :book2:
.

[woad&fangs]

Finished Bram Stoker's Dracula. Turns out it was 50% vampires and 50% commentary on Victorian gender roles. It was still a good book though.

[Caesar the IIIV]

Needful things.

[Beskar]

Reading "Assegai" by Wilbur Smith. Some escapist British empire literature isn't too bad these days. Also working on the biography of Mandela, which is one thick book as you might imagine.

I read it, unfortunately, I read so many of Wilbur's books, I knew the ending near the beginning. :cry:

Not as bad as Scott Mariani though. I read the back of the cover of his last Ben Hope and I actually could tell you who the main characters were in it and the entire plot and sub-plots (Even the Romance and lost re-union). What made it even worse, I read it and I was correct. Now he went and wrote some Vampire Federation nonsense which I have zero interest in.

[Myrddraal]

The world is incredibly deep, the plotlines are intertwined to a level I haven't seen before, all teh characters have their own goals and pursue them relentlessly and (what I like best of all) - sometimes things go wrong for the main characters and they have to work within those constraints. The characters seem incredibly human (except some of the women, but for the most part) and all of them have some character flaw.

I think one difference between Tolkein and Jordan is that Lord of the Rings is truly an epic. The Wheel of Time has a little more realism in the realms of human politics. The politics of the world are very deep and add so much to the books.

EDIT: except for the first book. Politics doesn't really feature in that book, but then I think the series is finding it's feet in that book.

Each book is a continuation of the same story. Some books focus on one character or the other more, but they are all always mentioned, and the plotline runs through all of them.

[Decker]

Okay as you meantion that Myrddraal, someone told me the books start to dry out as the series dragged out... are they still solid through till the latest?

[Myrddraal]

Well there is certainly some truth to that. It's not so much that the books dry out as the pace getting very slow. Not very much happens in about three of the books, then suddenly the pace picks up again (almost as if RJ realised he wouldn't have time to write twenty books at the rate he was writing). So I'd say it's more of a lull than a drying out. Some people prefer the slower pace of the mid-series books but I didn't, and it's one of my few gripes about the series.


An example of what bugged me in Knife of Dreams in these spoilers, don't read if you don't want the story spoiled :smile:

An example that really bugged me was Aram. For about three books he follows Perrin around, loyal to a fault, then suddenly in Knife of Dreams he decides to kill Perrin, having been convinced he is a darkfriend. What?

Couldn't RJ have spent those three books describing Arams fall into Masema's grip? I really get the feeling that RJ, knowing he didn't have long to live, decided to wrap up some loose ends, and did so in a manner which was completely inconsistent with his previous writing.

Perhaps I'm being unfair, but that particular sub-plot really struck a negative chord with me. Don't get me wrong, I still love the series, but I wish I could reach back in time to ask RJ to re-write that one.

[Decker]

Thanks! The guy I talked to pretty much bemoaned those parts lol. And I shall not spoil the story for myself. I have yet to read the first book (got LOTS of books to cover atm but having info of the ones I am going to read is nice). Mind pming me more about the series??

[vartan]

Chahin's Kingdom of Armenia for the bazillionth time because nothing fun is happening until I leave for vacation next month.

[Centurion1]

Steven Pressfields Gates of Fire, i read Virtues of war last week. This is about the gazillionnith time ive read them. Um after gates of fire; have about ten pages left im thinking Gunga Din for some quick enjoyment.

[Martok]

I just started A Mighty Fortress, the fourth and most recent novel in David Weber's Safehold series. The third book (By Heresies Distressed) ended what was more or less the first "arc" of the storyline, so I'm curious to see where this one goes.




Steven Pressfields Gates of Fire, i read Virtues of war last week. This is about the gazillionnith time ive read them. Um after gates of fire; have about ten pages left im thinking Gunga Din for some quick enjoyment.
Have you read Pressfield's Tides of War yet? That one's probably my personal favorite of his, even ahead of Gates of Fire.

[gaelic cowboy]

Just started rereading Gardens of the Moon I have them all up to the new one I usually wait till they come out in paperback I cant stand big hardback books.

It is fast becoming another group of book's I reread regular along with the Dune and Foundation saga's.

[Centurion1]

I just started A Mighty Fortress, the fourth and most recent novel in David Weber's Safehold series. The third book (By Heresies Distressed) ended what was more or less the first "arc" of the storyline, so I'm curious to see where this one goes.




Have you read Pressfield's Tides of War yet? That one's probably my personal favorite of his, even ahead of Gates of Fire.


No I have to get all my pressfield books from the library and I don't think they have it. After seeing what it is about I may buy it.

My father is reading last of the amazons and hunting rommel so we will see how those go.

[naut]

Breakfast of Champions. Vonnegut, who else? :wink2:

[Centurion1]

Ah i do love some of kurts work.

[Cyclops]

Lao Tzu again, thinking about a Spring/Autumn or Warring States boardgame with philosophers roaming the map affecting the states they settle in, and armies that eat one a village per turn (so war is really disasterous).

How to embody Chinese philosophical principles in a board game? The game that can be played is not the eternal game...

[Centurion1]

Lao Tzu again, thinking about a Spring/Autumn or Warring States boardgame with philosophers roaming the map affecting the states they settle in, and armies that eat one a village per turn (so war is really disasterous).

How to embody Chinese philosophical principles in a board game? The game that can be played is not the eternal game...

Thread?

depends on what philosophers we talking the classic ones? Confucius, Lao Tzu, the legalist bro?

[Ferret]

Finished Bram Stoker's Dracula. Turns out it was 50% vampires and 50% commentary on Victorian gender roles. It was still a good book though.

Best book I have ever read, only half way through at the moment though.

[Cyclops]

Thread?...

I don't understand. I'nm reading the Tao Te Ching, isn't this thread about what book I'm reading?


..depends on what philosophers we talking the classic ones? Confucius, Lao Tzu, the legalist bro?

Yes all of them. I thought it'd be interesting to have a number of schools embodied by certain famous names eg Master Kung, Master Mo, that legalist bloke, the egoist bloke, maybe a "Way of Heaven" to represent the Chou mindset. Maybe throw in Master Sun (or both, Sun Wu and Sun Pin). Not central to the game, just flavouring a players approach if the opportunity arose.

Each philosopher would move around the map and if they entered your kingdom you could employ them and gain certain bonuses. Eg Confucius might give you a legitimacy bonus for extra filial piety. Mo Tzu might give more benevolence, the legalist might make ruler actions more decisive (but with higher stability costs for being more cruel or whatever), Sun Tzu might guive a military bonus, haven't thought it through really.

Lao Tzu would be the joker in the pack, sort of a Socratic smartalec who negates other master's bonuses (he's reputed to have shut Confucius up one time) or maybe give some bonus if the player refrains from action that turn.

Of course there'd be action/event cards (with cool names and matching qoutes eg Straw Dogs card: remove one official from a neighbouring state The fates treat people like straw dogs : Lao Tzu) and a "Chou Ruler" piece in Loy Yang. If you control the Chou Ruler you win under the "Spring and Autumn" victory conditions, but if he's killed or you've lost too much legitimacy then you have to win under the warring states victory conditions (aka Total Victory).

[Subotan]

Just finished a Very Short Introduction to the European Union. It's so refreshing to read a pro-Europe viewpoint in English for once.

I'll probably start on some more Nietzsche after exams finish on Wednesday, or (God help me) Leviathan, by Hobbes.

[Secura]

I'm reading Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows for only the second time since I bought it way back in July '07... s'actually a good book, really enjoying it. :3

*prepares flame-retardant and anti-troll charms*

[Myrddraal]

Just started reading the Flashman Papers I... what a scumbag, although a shamefully believable depiction of the Victorian upper classes.

[God Emperor]

Dune Will ofc always be a master piece
But right now I read The Count of Monte Cristo

[Lemur]

I was jonesing for some good history lit, so I picked up Julian by Gore Vidal at the library. About halfway through, haven't been disappointed. It's not I, Claudius, but it's quite excellent in its own way.

[CountArach]

A Clash of Kings by George Martin - the second book in the series. He is very close to becoming my favourite author. Martin takes a brutal view of what humanity is capable of and he pulls no punches. The only people who seem to be untainted by any sort of major character flaws are the children and even they are forced into horrible situations and are clearly affected by what occurs around them. The 5-way civil war is just astounding and the plot lines are amazing in their complexity. Yet, unlike Robert Jordan, Martin manages to immerse you in a complex web of plots whilst also keeping the pace very high. The gritty realism is also a refreshing change in a genre that sometimes takes itself too seriously - Martin is not ashamed of swearing or detailed sex scenes.

[Centurion1]

What may I ask is wrong with Leviathan by thomas hobbes? It is a read everyone should have to do.some of his ideas on the nation were inspired.

[Centurion1]

Oh and ca look ahead a little bit just finished rereading all martins books. Some of my favorites. Please engage me in discussion about them I don't know who to talk with about them your the first other reader I've met

[CountArach]

What may I ask is wrong with Leviathan by thomas hobbes? It is a read everyone should have to do.some of his ideas on the nation were inspired.
Leviathan from a purely philosophical standpoint has so many problems. I took a philosophy course that touched on it at University a couple of years ago and the largest issue boils down to his natural state where he assumes two things:
1) All people are relatively equal
2) The strong will prey on the weak
These two things are not at all philosophically coherent and then the conclusions that he draws from them are bizarre. One that leaps to mind is "We need a strong state that has the right to censor whatever it wants" without proving the underlying basis for censorship. Large logical leaps such as this are replete throughout the text.

Oh and ca look ahead a little bit just finished rereading all martins books. Some of my favorites. Please engage me in discussion about them I don't know who to talk with about them your the first other reader I've met
I want your opinion on something - did you find that the people you were drawn to like the most were the people who had physical disabilities or were in some way 'other'? For me the people I most like are Bran, Jon and Tyrion. A cripple, a bastard and a dwarf respectively. Very few of the true 'heroes' of the story seem to be 'normal'. That brings me to another thing that I found interesting - you are constantly questioning who could be considered the person most deserving of the throne.

[Centurion1]

One of my favorite characters is tyrion. And jon is also another favorite. Arya rounds out my top three individuall characters. I'm not really a fan of bran not because he himself is a bland character but because his storyline is not the thread I especially like. My personaly favorite storyline (not nessecarily character) is daenarys.

I hate cersei and lady arryn mostly because one is evil and one is a weak mother who raised a weak child.

Characters I like but are imo relatively minor, robb, lady stark, most northmen I like.

Characters I'm ambivalent towards, samwell (hate his cowardice love his kindness) lord lannister (he is in the end a good leader), shocking one probably for you jaime lannister.

Ugh you haven't read so many new developments my development and opinions of the characters is going to be completely different, you have no idea what's going to go down, you say what you like martin ain't afriad to kill his characters off.

As for leviathan I never said it was perfect just that some of its ideas are good. And hobbes writing style is pretty reminiscent of his time for philosophy.

[Subotan]

What may I ask is wrong with Leviathan by thomas hobbes? It is a read everyone should have to do.some of his ideas on the nation were inspired.
Mainly it is the Ye Olde Englishe that fills me with dread, as well as the thickness of the book.


Leviathan from a purely philosophical standpoint has so many problems. I took a philosophy course that touched on it at University a couple of years ago and the largest issue boils down to his natural state where he assumes two things:
1) All people are relatively equal
2) The strong will prey on the weak
These two things are not at all philosophically coherent and then the conclusions that he draws from them are bizarre. One that leaps to mind is "We need a strong state that has the right to censor whatever it wants" without proving the underlying basis for censorship. Large logical leaps such as this are replete throughout the text.
Which is particularly ironic, since his book was banned..

[Centurion1]

Ah can't argue there subo the language can be a real pain. But I find with things like that its much easier when you get into a rhythm

[Rhyfelwyr]

In fairness to Hobbes he was actually trying to find a compromise for the two sides in the civil war, combining the idea that the king governed by contract for one side, with monarchical absolutism on the other.

Although today it does appear like he supported a very authoritarian government.

[Martok]

For me the people I most like are Bran, Jon and Tyrion. A cripple, a bastard and a dwarf respectively.
Those were, in fact, the *only* three characters I liked at all. Everyone one else is either evil and/or too dumb/annoying to live.

I will never understand the appeal of that series, especially as the characters are almost universally unlikeable (with the exception of the afore-mentioned three). But then, I generally don't care for stories taking place in a crapsack world either. :shrug:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Worse then War is what I am reading. :yes:

[Centurion1]

Martok what about arya and daenerys?

[johnhughthom]

Reading Mr X by Peter Straub, pretty much the only fiction I read now.

[Myrddraal]

Well I finished the Flashman Papers. Overall I was underwhelmed. The most entertaining thing about this book is the historical setting, and the descriptions of the scenarios in which Flashman finds himself. These gave me a real taste for the history of the region at the time, but it's a shame that his personal plot is so predictable.

[Togakure]

For light reading, I just finished the Faded Sun trilogy by C. J. Cherryh. 70s sci-fi. Enjoyed it.

[Magraev]

Well I finished the Flashman Papers. Overall I was underwhelmed. The most entertaining thing about this book is the historical setting, and the descriptions of the scenarios in which Flashman finds himself. These gave me a real taste for the history of the region at the time, but it's a shame that his personal plot is so predictable.

I enjoy the Flashman saga for what it is: Historical adventures with the lusty tales of a self-confessed coward and cad to glue it together. A lot of fun in small doses. Funny how you end up rooting for such an unpleasant fellow (well at least he's not a hypocrite).

[Myrddraal]

I think the problem with Flashman is he is too black and white. Just as it's annoying when a character is predictably good all the time, it's equally annoying to me when a character is consistently bad/lucky. Let's face it, there's never any doubt about the ending of Flashman, from the very beginning of the book you know how he'll turn out. There's no tension when he is taken prisoner, no character development. His personal plot is simply very poor.

On the other hand, the atmosphere of the books is great, and he really immerses you in the world that Flashman lives in. It's just Flashman himself that I found a bore.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Reading A Storm of Swords. The third book in the Song of Ice and Fire series.

Martin has built an extraordinarily complex world in terms of myth, history, characters, and plots.

One thing that peeves me is how it seems like every woman who fights (and the books being relatively realistically set (aside from the magic and whatnot) in medieval times, this is a small number) being described as ugly. Not fair or average, but ugly.

CR

[Ja'chyra]

The Martin books are good but I don't think the world he has built is as deep or engrossing as other series, like Eriksson or Jordan. A good series but by no means the best, the characters are all black and white as well with, maybe, the sole excpetion of Tyrion, who I really dislike.

I have just reread the Raven series from Barcaly while waiting for my Amazon order, a fun series but not too heavy.

I don't know whether to reread the Martin series next in preparation for his next book or start on the bundle of new ones I just bought.

[Lord Winter]

The Martin books are good but I don't think the world he has built is as deep or engrossing as other series, like Eriksson or Jordan. A good series but by no means the best, the characters are all black and white as well with, maybe, the sole excpetion of Tyrion, who I really dislike.

Really? I found the characters much more round and complex then your typical fantasty or even most modern fiction in general. Sure there are some one sided characters like Dany, but those are balanced out by people like the hound.

Currently finishing up the Martian Chronicles by Bradbury. It takes the form of a series of interconnected short stories outlining the colonization of Mars and the effects that it has on that world. The thing that I enjoyed about it the most is the strong characterization that Bradbury manages to achieve in such a short space. There are few recurring characters but few if any feel like filler or one dimensional.

[Cyclops]

Re-reading the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam.

Wake! for Morning in the bowl of night
Has flung the stone that puts the stars to flight
And Lo! the hunter of the East
Has caught the Sultan's turret in a noose of light.

I'm trying to memorise a little poetry now and then, I have 1/5th of Horatius Holds the Bridge by TBabs locked down but its boring as hell, aside from a couple of great moments.

[Xiahou]

Reading A Storm of Swords. The third book in the Song of Ice and Fire series.

Martin has built an extraordinarily complex world in terms of myth, history, characters, and plots.:yes:
Pity that he'll probably never finish the series..... I thought the first three were fantastic.

I recently purchased a Nook and have been doing alot more reading lately as a result. I just finished "Surviving the Fog" and am well into "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"- you can watch the trailer for it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X58RPS665V0).... yes, it has a trailer.

[CountArach]

A good series but by no means the best, the characters are all black and white as well with, maybe, the sole excpetion of Tyrion, who I really dislike.
I'm about half way through the second book and I don't see how people could dislike Tyrion. The constant height puns iritate me, but I can look past that to see a character who is deeply flawed, but largely due to his physical problems.

Really? I found the characters much more round and complex then your typical fantasty or even most modern fiction in general. Sure there are some one sided characters like Dany, but those are balanced out by people like the hound.
Yeah I have to agree - I think Martin creates a world with many shades of grey.

[Lemur]

Pity that he'll probably never finish the series..... I thought the first three were fantastic.
Linky? Article? Last I heard Mr. Martin was in excellent health and still writing. Did I miss some major literary news?

[Xiahou]

Linky? Article? Last I heard Mr. Martin was in excellent health and still writing. Did I miss some major literary news?It's based on the fact that it's been 5 years since the the last volume was published. Originally, Feast for Crows was huge and the publisher balked at printing it so the plan was to split the manuscript in two. The first part came out in 2005. The second part still has no release date. I think he's lost interest.

[Ja'chyra]

I don't know I just couldn't really empathise with most of them although he left it well with Jaime (?) for the next book if he bothers writing it.

Out of all the one's I've read I think Steven Erikson is my favourite, I still like Gemmel for some light heroic fantasy and Brooks and Feist are good too, Brooks seems to get better whereas Feist seems to get worse as the publish more.

Martin is good but just not up there for me.

Scott Lynch is a good read as well, for something a bit different just don't look at his picture on amazon.

[Ronin]

'Kitchen Confidential' - Anthony Bourdain
and
'Homicide' - David Simon

[Hosakawa Tito]

Just finishing up "Receding Tide" by Edwin Bearss.

With his passion for his subject, knowledge, and flair for presentation, Ed Bearss (b. 1923) is America's premier Civil War tour guide. A former historian at Vicksburg and Chief Historian of the National Park Service, Bearss continues to give selflessly of his time to increase understanding of one of the defining moments of American history. In 2007, the National Geographic Society published "Fields of Honor" Fields of Honor: Pivotal Battles of the Civil War (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1426200935/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk) a book of transcripts of Bearss' tour presentations for several major Civil War Battlefields. In this new book, "Receding Tide", readers receive the benefit of more Bearss tours but with a focus. The book concentrates on the conflict during late 1862 to mid- 1863. The focus is on Vicksburg and Gettysburg, "The Campaigns that Changed the Civil War", but the campaign in Tennessee during this time period also receives much attention.

Other than books that give an overview of the Civil War, most books that explore the military conflict in depth focus on one campaign or the other. Thus, there are many books on the Gettysburg campaign and a smaller though still substantial number of books about Vicksburg. I have read many books about individual battles and about the Civil War, but Bearss' book taught me a good deal. He weaves together the stories of the three primary theaters of the war: the East in Virginia and Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Vicksburg and the Mississippi River and shows their interrelationship. The narrative shifts back and forth among the different theaters and various points and helped me understand how they held together. Besides offering a broad strategic picture, Bearss' account is full of detail about the battles and their participants, from generals to privates. His battle accounts frequently have a Homeric sweep.

The single most important focus of the book is on the Vicksburg campaign. Bearss begins with an overview of the importance of the Mississippi River to Union commerce and to its war effort. The story picks up in late 1862 with Grant's many unsuccessful early attempts to capture Vicksburg and gain control over the river. During this time, Lee was winning his victory at Fredericksburg. Also during this time, The Army of the Tennessee under its commander, Rosecrans, had fought a difficult battle at Stone's River after which the Confederate general, Braxton Bragg, made an impolitic decision to retreat. Bearss sees Stones River as the beginning of the end for the Confederacy that would carry through Vicksburg and Gettysburg.

Again, Bearss juxtaposes Grant's brilliant campaign south of Vicksburg with Lee's victory at Chancellorsville and with Rosecrans' reluctance to take action in Tennessee. He shows how the Vicksburg campaign impacted strategy and affected decision making for both sides in these two other theaters of the war. In particular, following Lee's success at Chancellorsville, the Confederacy gave a great deal of consideration to moving troops from Virginia and Tennessee to assist in the increasingly beleagered defense of Vicksburg. Lee persuaded the Confederate government to support his invasion of Pennsylvania instead. This book gave me the impression that the decision was unwise.

Bearss offers his own thoughts on the leadership on both sides. I was surprised with his sympathy for Union General John McClernand, a political general who many students see as a liability to the Federal effort because he tried to take command away from Grant. Bearss offers a positive assessment of McClernand's role in the Vicksburg campaign, and he is critical of Grant's efforts to shunt McClernand aside.

The Gettysburg Campaign occupies only about the final third of the book. Bearss narrates the events of the battle with a sweep and intensity that kept me riveted. Bearss has an eye for the telling detail as well as for the broad picture of the battle. He gives a great deal of attention to the frequently overlooked fighting on Culp's Hill on the far right of the Union line. Bearss makes a great deal of the role of Col David Ireland of the 137th New York in saving Culp's Hill for the Union against numerioally superior forces during the night of July 2. Ireland's actions were, Bearss argues, as important to the Union effort as the more hearalded role of Colonel Joshua Chamberlain on the Union left at Little Round Top earlier in the afternoon of July 2.

Parker Hills, a retired military officer and the author of a tour guide to the Vicksburg Campaign has prepared introductory and supplemental material to the transcripts from Bearss' tours. Hills' materials add a great deal to the book. This is an outstanding book which added to my knowledge of and passion for the Civil War. It will be of most interest to readers who already know the battlefields and who want to hear the unique voice of Ed Bearss.

Robin Friedman

Bearss is the premier Civil War Battlefield historian. I've had the pleasure to be at two of his guided tours, Vicksburg & Gettysburg. He's a national treasure.

[Lemur]

'Kitchen Confidential' - Anthony Bourdain
That book is a load of fun. I gave it to Mrs. Lemur, who is a professional chef, and asked her if it was an accurate depiction of kitchen life. She said it was. Yikes!

[Decker]

That book is a load of fun. I gave it to Mrs. Lemur, who is a professional chef, and asked her if it was an accurate depiction of kitchen life. She said it was. Yikes!
Why you lucky sonofa..... of course I type this while starving :sweatdrop:

Anyways I'm reading Roman Warfare by Jonathon P. Roth.

[Subotan]

Just finished Nothing to Envy, a collection of biographies of North Korean defectors, both pre and post-defection.

[Lemur]

I'm trying to finish The Sword of the Lady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_the_Lady), which is a slow slog of a boring book. My reward for finishing will be The Fuller Memorandum, (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/charles-stross/fuller-memorandum.htm) which I expect will rock my world.

[Tony Furze]

Lord of the Rings : The Two Towers.

Finished Fellowship last week.

[Xiahou]

Finished Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter and after reading a few different short stories, have started The God of the Machine by Isabel Paterson.

[Myrddraal]

Well I'm reading "The Goal" because I was told I should. My thoughts so far are these:

- The protagonist is pretty dumb. Most of the great revelations so far I guessed immediately, so I'm pretty unimpressed by these moments of clarity in the book.
- The protagonist (and the author) apply the principle of generalising 'goals' ruthlessly to his company and work, but never even stop to consider applying the same ideas to his personal goals as an individual. The story of his relationship with his wife seems almost to be thrown in to keep the reader entertained between the lectures on business strategy.
- The book is well written. Despite it's faults, it does keep you reading. You want to find out what happens next. Whether this will last I can't guess.

[CountArach]

Finished Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter
Thoughts? It is sitting on my bookshelf at the moment.

[Xiahou]

Thoughts? It is sitting on my bookshelf at the moment.I'd say it was good, but not great. It didn't quite live up to my expectations- but with a name like that, how could it? I think I was expecting far more action and general cheesiness than was actually in the book. Still, it was entertaining to see how the auther blended historical fact with.... vampires- and I thought the end was satisfying. :shrug:

[Ronin]

‘Yippee Ki-Yay Moviegoer! Writings on Bruce Willis, Badass Cinema, and Other Important Topics’ - Vern

A very funny, down to earth collection of movie reviews.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
The Treason of Isengard (Tolkien)
Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar (Gildersleeve & Lodge)
A sub-par translation of Slave Trade in the Ottoman Empire (Toledano)
Vox Graeca; you can't translate a book without reading it can you? (Allen)
Arbitrary sections of countless e-books.
.

[Ferret]

Day of the Triffids

[Sigurd]

Just finished 'Assassin's Apprentice' and Royal Assassin by Robin Hobb. They are book one and two in the Farseer trilogy.
Oh my.. If you enjoyed the emotional roller-coaster of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' by Gorge R.R. Martin, then Hobb's books are for you.

The books that let you immerse far enough to want to punch certain character's faces are just my cup of tea.
George R.R. praises Hobb's work in both books.
The books are in the Medieval time fantasy genre, and like George R.R, the focus is on the interaction of characters rather than the fantasy bit.

[CountArach]

The books that let you immerse far enough to want to punch certain character's faces are just my cup of tea.
George R.R. praises Hobb's work in both books.
The books are in the Medieval time fantasy genre, and like George R.R, the focus is on the interaction of characters rather than the fantasy bit.
I've heard good things about them before and I'll give them a look some time soon.

I've been reading The Social and Economic History of the Roman Empire by Michael Rostovtzeff lately. A huge piece of scholarship that is deeply flawed in several of its premises (I'm doing an analysis of it for Uni) but is still worth reading for an in-depth view of the fall of the Empire, particularly in the 3rd Century. I'm also reading some Suetonius for Latin. I just finished Otho, my favourite Emperor by far, and I've just started Vitellius.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
William Saroyan, Here Comes, There Goes, You Know Who

Beautiful! :2thumbsup:
.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Just just done reading Columbine by Dave Cullen. Read it in a week. Now I'm reading Vienna 1814 and Frederick The Great on The Art of War.

[johnhughthom]

Farewell, my lovely by Raymond Chandler. It has the best line I've read in quite a while. "A hand I could have sat in came out of the dimness..."

[Martok]

Just finished reading Mission of Honor, the most recent book in David Weber's Honor Harrington series. Good lord, that man knows how to ratchet up the HSQ! ~:eek:

Next on the agenda is Roma Eterna by Robert Silverberg. I haven't read any alternate history novels in a while, so I'm looking forward to it.





Just finished 'Assassin's Apprentice' and Royal Assassin by Robin Hobb. They are book one and two in the Farseer trilogy.
Oh my.. If you enjoyed the emotional roller-coaster of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' by Gorge R.R. Martin, then Hobb's books are for you.

The books that let you immerse far enough to want to punch certain character's faces are just my cup of tea.
George R.R. praises Hobb's work in both books.
The books are in the Medieval time fantasy genre, and like George R.R, the focus is on the interaction of characters rather than the fantasy bit.
I think I'm going to have resign myself to the fact that I'll never understand the appeal of either of those two authors.

They're both extremely good at creating a cast of characters I loathe, although Martin isn't quite as bad (there's at least a couple characters from his Ice & Fire series that I somewhat enjoy). Hobb takes the prize, though -- when I find myself wanting to even punch and/or strangle every single one of the eponymous "good guys", something has definitely gone awry.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Finished The War in Spain, nonfiction overview of the Spanish Civil War. Depressing stuff (unless you're a real callous fascist) but also good for rooting for lost causes (the Catalonian anarchists got screwed and they mostly didn't deserve it!). Too many Spanish names for me to keep them all straight, though I could follow most of it.

Starting the Hobbit, which I'll always be able to go back to. Will also start to reread The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress which I enjoyed the first time but can only remember the outline of.

May do The Screwtape Letters again after that.

[Fragony]

'The Road' by McCarthy, loved the movie and the book ain't too bad either, haunting stuff.

edit, done. The movie > the book

[Motep]

Crown of Swords - Robert Jordan. I love the wheel of time.

The Awakening - Chopin. By god, kill her (Edna, btw)!!! I will never forgive Swart.

[rory_20_uk]

The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White.
ISBN 1 899505 01 6

I think that dear Ellen is from the deep south central USA where effigys of Darwin are burnt daily, the rapture is awaited and Christianity appears to be more dualism than monotheism - although I'm not yet convinced she grasps this herself.

Well worth a read into the very scary inner workings of luckily the few.

~:smoking:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Just finished Footfall, by Niven and Pournelle.

A very good science fiction novel all the way through; one that examines what might happen if alien invaders were to try and take earth and not the inner workings of technical details, in a hard science way. And the final part is thrilling.

CR

[Lemur]

A woman I used to have, um, relations with has a bestseller. And I don't. Which fills me with envy and greed. I checked her book out of the library since I could not bear to add to her sales. It's probably great. I'll start reading it tonight. Damn her!

[Decker]

May do The Screwtape Letters again after that.Enjoyed that book in high school and still remember it (slightly anyways). Should probably add that one to my library when I get the chance.


Just finished Footfall, by Niven and Pournelle.

A very good science fiction novel all the way through; one that examines what might happen if alien invaders were to try and take earth and not the inner workings of technical details, in a hard science way. And the final part is thrilling.

CROooo I'll be checking this one out thanks!


A woman I used to have, um, relations with has a bestseller. And I don't. Which fills me with envy and greed. I checked her book out of the library since I could not bear to add to her sales. It's probably great. I'll start reading it tonight. Damn her!
What's it called?

I'm currently reading The Rule of Saint Benedict (http://www.amazon.com/Rule-Benedict-Image-Book-Original/dp/0385009488/ref=sr_1_4?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285023364&sr=8-4), Beowulf (http://www.amazon.com/Beowulf-New-Verse-Translation-Bilingual/dp/0393320979/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285023406&sr=8-1), and Japan's Medieval Population (http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Medieval-Population-Transformative-Outstanding/dp/0824834240/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285023432&sr=8-1). Those are for classes but I'm enjoying them nonetheless, the first two are for a medieval history course from 300-1000 and the last book is for a Japanese history class that stops at 1750. Good times.

[Lemur]

What's it called?
Ain't gonna say. You might run out and add to her sales, and I'm sick with envy as is.

[Beskar]

It was the author of the Harry Potter series, Joanne Rowling.

[Decker]

Ain't gonna say. You might run out and add to her sales, and I'm sick with envy as is.

Eh I actually have many books on my to by list already, fiction and non-fiction, you have nothing to worry about. (I've already denied myself some books recently that I've wanted to buy for a long time due to already having to many to read!!!! :sweatdrop:)

[naut]

Breakfast of Champions. Vonnegut, who else? :wink2:
Oh how the wheel does turn, and find itself back at its beginnings. Once again I find myself reading Breakfast of Champions.

[Kagemusha]

The Culture of Civil War in Kyoto, by Mary Elisabeth Perry

[Veho Nex]

The Ghost King, Book 3 of the Transitions series by: R. A. Salvatore.

[Fragony]

It was the author of the Harry Potter series, Joanne Rowling.

Funny story in that she was absolutely in shambles financially, just divorced without arangements, and was turned down by just about all publishers. They must feel pretty stupid as Harry Potter is tons of fun, not as good as Roald Dahl, but good, she set up a great fantasy-world with all the daily chores and red tape, filled with genuinely likable/hateble characters.

Very attractive woman as well.

[Ser Clegane]

Just finished John Irving's "Setting Free the Bears" and now started with Edmund Morris' Roosevelt biography "Theodore Rex" (per Don Corleone's recommendation)

[Beirut]

Just finished John Irving's "Setting Free the Bears" and now started with Edmund Morris' Roosevelt biography "Theodore Rex" (per Don Corleone's recommendation)

Hey Ser,

I read "Theodore Rex". Great book! You'll love it.

I just started, and I mean Page 1, of Tim Cook's two-volume set of Canadian WWI history; "At the Sharp End. 1914-1916" and "Shock Troops. 1917-1918". About 1250 pages all together. Should keep me occupied for a night or two. :book:

Gotta love Amazon. Twice now I ordered books on a Sunday night and they are at the door, UPS, Tuesday morning. Sweet!

[SwordsMaster]

'For whom the bell tolls' - Hemingway. I try to read a classic for every airport novel i pick up....

[Motep]

I am reading a 250 page Wicked fanfiction that my girlfriend wrote.

[Peasant Phill]

ATM I'm reading 'Siegfried' by Alice. A BD/strip/comic based on The Nibelungen saga. I really like his work.

[johnhughthom]

I am reading a 250 page Wicked fanfiction that my girlfriend wrote.

I think that is the ultimate answer to the question, "what is love?".

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Working on the Sharpe's series, or at least the ones they have in the library. I've read:

Sharpe's Fortress
Sharpe's Prey
Sharpe's Rifles

Almost done with Havoc, then going to do Gold and the one after that.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Saggs, HWE. Civilization Before Greece and Rome.
.

[Ser Clegane]

Peter Wilson's Europe's Tragedy (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Europes-Tragedy-History-Thirty-Years/dp/0141006145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294696375&sr=1-1)

[naut]

Banksy Wall and Piece.

[Subotan]

Just finished Truman by David McCullough

Harry S. Truman was so AWESOME

[pevergreen]

The Belgariad, The Malloreon by Eddings.

Will have to start reading that stuff by George Martin.

[Cyprian2]

Trainspotting - Irvine Welsh

(His first and best.)

[Ser Clegane]

Trainspotting - Irvine Welsh

(His first and best.)

Hehe - I remember the first time I read one of his books (Glue) in English* - I hardly understood a word and was wondering if I really had an English edition... (after a while I got used to it though ... I think)


*Trainspotting was the first book I read from him - but at that time I read the German translation

[drone]

*Trainspotting was the first book I read from him - but at that time I read the German translation
How did they translate the Scottish dialect into German?

[Motep]

WoT...again...

[Ser Clegane]

How did they translate the Scottish dialect into German?

They use a very colloquial language - while that conveys the social status of the characters I do not think that it comes across as strong as the Scottish dialect in the original.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Talking Music by William Duckworth :drummer:

Excerpts of it were crappily translated on a magazine issue back in late 90's, which thankfully introduced the name of Steve Reich into my little world. Then I went out and bought a copy of Drumming and have been a happy soul ever since. :sunny:

Now, years later, I ordered the original book. :book2:
.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Most recently,

Berlin Diary: Shirer. Very interesting to see someone writing about the build up to war without knowing what is going to happen next.

Homage to Catalonia: Orwell. Alternates between the personal narrative of his experience in the Spanish civil war and a description of the politics and events of the time.

The Stranger, The Plague: Camus. He's very good...

[Motep]

My girlfriend is making me read a five hundred page fan fiction shoe wrote based on Wicked. : /

[Decker]

My girlfriend is making me read a five hundred page fan fiction shoe wrote based on Wicked. : /
As much as you may not like that I think that it's pretty cool she went and done that. However, I do hope it is good! (decent, okay, whatever :wink: )

[Motep]

As much as you may not like that I think that it's pretty cool she went and done that. However, I do hope it is good! (decent, okay, whatever :wink: )

It is not bad.

[phonicsmonkey]

Homage to Catalonia: Orwell. Alternates between the personal narrative of his experience in the Spanish civil war and a description of the politics and events of the time.

That's one of my favourite by Orwell. I also like Down and Out in London and Paris.

Right now I'm reading Every Parent: A Positive Approach to Children's Behaviour by Matthew R. Sanders PhD, because I have a two year old and a wife who's a clinical psychologist. :laugh4:

[Nachtmeister]

"BE READY WHEN THE SH*T GOES DOWN
a survival guide to the apocalypse"

by Forrest Griffin (and Erich Krauss)

[Furunculus]

Lord Kinross on the Ottoman empire:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ottoman-Centuries-Rise-Turkish-Empire/dp/0688080936/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297899389&sr=1-1

[Beirut]

The Second World War, by A.J.P. Taylor. 1976 print. Just bought it today at my favorite used book store in Montreal. $10, good book, good deal.

It's not like I need another history of WWII, but I've become a fan of Taylor. I'll read anything he wrote.

[Populus Romanus]

History of Rome
Titvs Livivs

[Strike For The South]

Radio Free Dixie

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The Great War and modern memory: Paul Fussell. Came across it after looking up "flander's fields" on wikipedia and seeing a quote of his in the criticism section. Not sure what I expected but it was very interesting. It focuses on poetry, literature, and theater--how it affected people's beliefs pre-war, how it shaped their experience of the war itself, how they wrote the war, how they remembered the war, how they understood the war.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The Citadel by John Ringo. Half of me is bored by it, half of me is fascinated by how repulsive it is. The short of it is aliens are threatening earth who just recently became a space-faring race in a crowded neighborhood (stop me if you've heard *that* before). The twist is that TEAM AMERICA WORLD POLICE are going to deliver righteous justice into those slimy lizards' faces, despite being held back by... Russia, China, and France. It's sort of like Republican propaganda but not very thought out - it presents what is essentially Republican foreign policy as a good idea if we're threatened by advanced alien races.

And the non-expository parts are mostly detailed stories about welding things and doing maintenance on shuttles. Which is boring. Get to the shooty bits or the silly politics because you're doing a terrible job at making me interested in the people.

Also in the middle of The Great Betrayal (The Story of the Fourth Crusade) by Ernle Bradford. Which is what it says on the tin, but it's a little simplistic. The Venetian Doge was a jerk. The Crusaders were weak willed. The Pope was naive. The Byzantines had frittered away their previous majesty. It really sucked that it all went down. It's informative at least, but I can't help but feel there are angles that I'm missing (and it may just be because its written for an audience with a better understanding of the historical context than I have).

I also picked up Jules Verne's The Begum's Millions because I never heard of it and the book jacket made it sound interesting. Will start it after The Citadel unless it melts my brain.

[Xiahou]

I recently finished the Farseer Trilogy. Is the follow-up Tawny Man trilogy as good as the first?

[Ser Clegane]

I liked the "Tawny Man" as well (although I slightly preferred Farseer - cannot really say why, though).

While I do not believe that it is necessary you might want to read the "Lifeship" trilogy first. The trilogy is pretty much standalone but some of the characters and events there are taken up in "Tawny Man" and it might "enrich" the reading experience, even if it does not seem like "required pre-reading" ~:)

[G. Septimus]

I am currently reading the Flames of Rome by John Maier and The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas pere

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A strange defeat: Marc Bloch.


He fought in the trenches of the Western Front for four years. In 1919 he became Lecturer in Medieval history at Strasbourg University, after the German professors were all expelled; he was called to the Sorbonne in Paris in 1936 as professor of economic history. He is best known for his pioneering studies French Rural History and Feudal Society and his posthumously-published unfinished meditation on the writing of history, The Historian's Craft. In 1939 France declared war on Germany after its invasion and occupation of Poland. As France mobilized its troops, Marc Bloch left his position at the Sorbonne and took up his reserve status as a captain in the French Army at the age of 52. He was encouraged at the time by colleagues both in France and abroad to leave the country. He said it was his personal obligation to stand for the moral imperative. He was captured and shot by the Gestapo during the German occupation of France for his work in the French Resistance.

Strange defeat was written in 1940, it's a very interesting book. He tells of his experience and then gives his theory on why france was defeated so quickly.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Dante's Divine Comedy

Dante Alighieri

[phonicsmonkey]

All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque

And for some light entertainment in between the harrowing accounts of trench warfare, The Second World War Volume Two: Their Finest Hour, by Winston Churchill.

[Beirut]

Dante's Divine Comedy

Dante Alighieri

How are you finding the "comfort" of reading it? I've heard it is a difficult book to get through.

[Strike For The South]

Working Class War; Combat Soliders in Vietnam By: Christian G Appy

The Jungle By: Upton Sinclar

[drone]

Full Dark, No Stars - Stephen King. And I continue to like his short stories/novellas better than his full novels.

[Prussian to the Iron]

How are you finding the "comfort" of reading it? I've heard it is a difficult book to get through.

Really? I don't find it very difficult language-wise or any other way.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Napoleon's Wars: An International History by Charles Esdaile.

A slightly different perspective on things as the book looks at Napoleon from a truly European lens and how each power thought of the man at certain times. I'm only at the Peace of Amiens so far, but it's pretty good. :yes:

[a completely inoffensive name]

"Lies my Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen

[Beirut]

Really? I don't find it very difficult language-wise or any other way.

Ah, thank you. I was listening to a lecture about books and the speaker said The Divine Comedy was a difficult book. Maybe he was talking about the references in the book to people or events most don't know about.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
<shameless self-plug>

A friend gave me as a present a special print of Inferno, probably a custom print. Each page has a blank one across, on which it's crazily annotated in manuscript. 19th century Italian vs. the printed Tuscan original. A true gem that I shall treasure all my life. :yes:
.

[Beirut]

.
<shameless self-plug>

A friend gave me as a present a special print of Inferno, probably a custom print. Each page has a blank one across, on which it's crazily annotated in manuscript. 19th century Italian vs. the printed Tuscan original. A true gem that I shall treasure all my life. :yes:
.

Nice!

Would love to see a pic of it, or you could just mail it to me. :smiley:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

Nice!

Would love to see a pic of it, or you could just mail it to me. :smiley:

As soon as I re-install my scanner or convince bro to take a few shots for me. ~:)
.

[Fragony]

Ah, thank you. I was listening to a lecture about books and the speaker said The Divine Comedy was a difficult book. Maybe he was talking about the references in the book to people or events most don't know about.

It isn't really a book, it's a series of 3 poems that were released independently. No persons or events specifically, it's a social commentary in a more general way. It's also a horrible read I have no idea why people like reading that old crap.

Which brings me to 'The Hunger Game" by Suzanne Collins, courtesy of my sister, almost done with the first book 354 pages so far without a break, two more await. Same story as Battle Royale, kids who have to kill eachother, and of course there can only be one. Might sound crappy but it really isn't.

[Prussian to the Iron]

It isn't really a book, it's a series of 3 poems that were released independently. No persons or events specifically, it's a social commentary in a more general way. It's also a horrible read I have no idea why people like reading that old crap.

It's a statement on the Medieval Catholic view of Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.

[Fragony]

It's a statement on the Medieval Catholic view of Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.

Wasn't written as such, there are various levels of hell depending on the sin.

[Motep]

The Awakening - Chopin

It is very hard to like a book when you hate the protagonist and are constantly infuriated at the writing style. I get it chopin, and I made the connection, and I got my nerdy thrill out of it. Now, STOP MAKING THE CONNECTION FOR ME TWO SENTENCES LATER!!!!!

EDIT: I know she has been dead for over a hundred years now, but I hope my yells transcend time.

[Vuk]

I just got done reading Warman's new book. :)

[Xiahou]

Whoah... I thought it'd never happen....
A Dance with Dragons (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/A-Dance-with-Dragons/George-R-R-Martin/e/9780553905656/?pt=BK&stage=bookproduct&pwb=2&cm_mmc=Facebook-_-NOOK-_-product_page-_-dance_with_dragons), book 5 of the "a Song of Ice and Fire" series gets a release date.

Should I wait for book 6 to get a release date before I read it? I'd hate to think it's going to take another six years for the following book.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wow, book five is actually coming out. Huh.

Anyways, I'm reading "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" by Bruce Tremper.

CR

[Jaguara]

I am totally stalled on Machiavelli's "The Prince". I have not picked it up in over a month. Before that I read "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoevsky...it was great, and I was amazed at how well it translated into English. I will likely go light for my next one.

What is up with Dante lately? My son came to me out of the blue and asked to borrow my copy because he wants to read it. It is not like he saw it on the shelf and got curious, because it is in storage. Is there something going on in pop-culture right now that is bringing people's attention to it?

[Prussian to the Iron]

I'm not sure, to be totally honest I don't know why I wanted to read it really. Hmm. Subliminal advertisements?

[johnhughthom]

Isn't there a game in development based on Dante?

[Jaguara]

Isn't there a game in development based on Dante?

If true, that could totally explain my son's interest.

I could not find my copy of "The Divine Comedy", but I offered him Milton's Paradise Lost...he wasn' interested. I eventually found him a link to read Inferno online (it is in the public domain).

He is not particularly interested in Religion or Spirituality, I have never heard a word from him about Poetry or the Classics. All his knowledge of history and mythology seems to be based on what he has picked up from video games :rolleyes:. I have not yet decided if that is "better than nothing".

[drone]

Isn't there a game in development based on Dante?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante%27s_Inferno_%28video_game%29
Released last year.

[Passion]

With my course I do a lot of reading, and every now and again one or two pieces of literature stand out and you go back and re-read them for pleasure which is always better. One such play is 'Stuff happens' by David Hare.

It is basically a play of the build up to the Iraq War, featuring all the major players (Bush, Blair, Powell etc). Extremely interesting, shocking at times, and surprisingly funny.

[Beirut]

1915: The Death of Innocence, by Lyn Mcdonald

Good WWI book. Excellent account of gas warfare and the battle of Loos. Lots of long quotes from diaries and letters of the soldiers. Used, perfect condition hardcover edition, for $7.50. Sweet! Apparently the book is part of a series, covering 1914 to 1918. Will definetly look for the others.

Macdonald also wrote "They called it Passchendaele". It's considered one of the classic books on that battle. Have had that one on the shelf for a while already. She's a great writer; covers the facts and the people without ever being tedious.

[Motep]

I am reading old cookbooks, marking things that look good to eat.

Also: rereading the bible and Howard's End

[Beirut]

I am reading old cookbooks, marking things that look good to eat.

Also: rereading the bible and Howard's End

How old are the cookbooks?

Are you reading the Bible from start to finish or selected books?

[Vuk]

I am reading old cookbooks, marking things that look good to eat.

Also: rereading the bible and Howard's End

lol, I have not read the Bible in ages. :P After I graduate, I am going to devote myself to studying the Bible (from a historical perspective) and Machiavelli. (I am going to write a paper about Machiavelli and Biblical doctrine :P)

[Motep]

Start to finish for the bible, and the cookbooks are from early last century. Not too old, but old enough to have squirrel recipes....

And Vuk, that will be an interesting paper to read.

[Vuk]

Start to finish for the bible, and the cookbooks are from early last century. Not too old, but old enough to have squirrel recipes....

And Vuk, that will be an interesting paper to read.
Thanks. I am aiming for 100+pages. I am writing it with the hopes that it will get me into Madison's grad program.

[Motep]

Thanks. I am aiming for 100+pages. I am writing it with the hopes that it will get me into Madison's grad program.

Best of luck to you. Also: that is quite some paper.

[Martok]

[Martok takes deep breath; casts "Greater Thread Necromancy" (7th-level spell)....]




After all these years, I've *finally* gotten around to reading the Star Wars: X-Wing series; am currently halfway through Book 4, The Bacta War.

I'm enjoying the series thus far. I think between these first four books and his other Star Wars novel I, Jedi (I refuse to read any of the NJO books), Stackpole has solidified himself as my second-favorite SW author (after Timothy Zahn, of course). I'm a little nervous about when I get to Books 5-7, as author Aaron Allston is an unknown quantity for me, but so far I'd have to give the the series a nod of approval.

[The Wizard]

Currently reading The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. Very well-written and interesting so far.

[CountArach]

Currently The Battle: A New History of Waterloo which is marvellously written and very authoritative. I'm really enjoying it.

After this probably going to dip into some Foucault...

[Nowake]

Oh, this is a much better idea than the recommend a good book thread, those always divide between the classics, the very obscure or plain long lists.

Ahem, that aside, currently in the middle of Wild Swans: Three daughters of China (http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Swans-Three-Daughters-China/dp/0385425473) by Jung Chang.

[Ja'chyra]

I'm winding my way thorugh a number of free fantasy, swords and sorcery, books on my kindle.

Reading the Palladins by David Dalglish, I think, not bad but not that inspiring reading so far, quite a traditional storyline so far but it has the potential to be quite good. Not sure I'd recommend it yet but I did enjoy the Shadows of the Apt books by Adrian Tchaikovsky although they take a bit of getting in to, and they're not free

[Silver Jan]

Why do all the books have to be "high brow" books? Don't any of you read for fun. Yes, I have read :Grapes of Wrath" and "The Pearl" but reading to me is as if some one is telling me a bedtime story. I want to sink into the book and live it. Shakespeare did write for the masses

[Ja'chyra]

Shakespeare did write for the masses

Or maybe he didn't write at all, either way I think his stuff is crap.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
The Lord of the Rings for a zillionth time. I think (hope!) I'll keep re-reading it to the end of my days. :book2:
.

[Martok]

Hey Mouza! Long time no see! ~:wave:




.
The Lord of the Rings for a zillionth time. I think (hope!) I'll keep re-reading it to the end of my days. :book2:
.
Same here. I make a point of reading them (plus The Hobbit) once a year, and I still enjoy them as much now as I did the first time I read them over 15 years ago. :yes:

[Fragony]

Am I really the only one who can't stand Tolkien.

Reading 'Sphere' by Crighton, sometimes I like stuff like that, movie in book-form. Slick and stupid, perfect entertainment

As Silver Jan said, why do all the books have to be "high brow" books?

[edyzmedieval]

Game of Thrones, part II, A Clash of Kings. :yes:

[Martok]

Also, am now re-reading (concurrently with the X-Wing series) The Princess Bride by William Goldman. I really do enjoy it as much as the film; I forget how the humor is even drier (and funnier) in the book than in the movie!





Am I really the only one who can't stand Tolkien.
Not at all. I know of at least a few people who find him to be verbose and/or overly prosaic. While I personally don't feel that way about Tolkien, I can see where they (and you) are coming from.

[phonicsmonkey]

"Moneyball" by Michael Lewis

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Just finished "Freedom just around the corner: a new American history 1584-1828" by Walter McDougall.

A great book, first of a planned trilogy. I've read three by him now and plan to read the rest he's written.

[Nowake]

Sunday afternoon I went through the rest of Wild Swans: Three daughters of China (http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Swans-Three-Daughters-China/dp/B000YTFMU0/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320830703&sr=1-1) by Jung Chang. I am bemused to observe that after Wild Swans, last night I began Cabrera Infante's Three trapped tigers (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Trapped-Tigers-Cabrera-Infante/dp/1569247137). Authors and their titles... However, I enjoyed the first couple of chapters, would definitely recommend it, just mind to find a good translation, preferably use the English one, because one must do justice to the book's slang.

:book2:

[The Wizard]

Am I really the only one who can't stand Tolkien.

No, it took me three years and much effort just to read the LotR trilogy and I thoroughly dislike it to this day. Great world, but cardboard characters and a completely unbelievable black-and-white plot. I think fantasy's done much better since (and before, if you count the "low" fantasy of Robert E. Howard et al).

[leonardo davinci]

reading 'the color of magic, a dsic world novel'. very funny and good book to read:book2:, sadly there are over 37 parts in the series. just started in part 1....:stars:

[Peasant Phill]

reading 'the color of magic, a dsic world novel'. very funny and good book to read:book2:, sadly there are over 37 parts in the series. just started in part 1....:stars:

Yes but the series is divided in storylines. Pick a protagonist and read those books in succession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld#Storylines).

[edyzmedieval]

Started in parallel John Le Carre, The Spy who Came in from the Cold. :book:

[Lemur]

Best Served Cold (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Served-Cold-Joe-Abercrombie/dp/0316044954) by Joe Abercrombie.

[Ja'chyra]

Best Served Cold (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Served-Cold-Joe-Abercrombie/dp/0316044954) by Joe Abercrombie.

I'm sure I have that book but I can't remember if I've read it, I'll need to dig it out of the cupboard. Is it worth the bother?

[Lemur]

Is it worth the bother?
I'm enjoying it a great deal, but your mileage may vary. It's no masterpiece, but it's plenty of fun for bedtime or commute reading.

[Ja'chyra]

I'm enjoying it a great deal, but your mileage may vary. It's no masterpiece, but it's plenty of fun for bedtime or commute reading.

In that case I'll open the cupboard of no return tomorrow

[easytarget]

Here's what I've got going at the moment:

A clash of Kings, 2nd of the Game of Thrones, fun read, would make an excellent MTW2 mod

The Call of Cthulhu on Kindle, recently got a kindle and found quite a few books for free and grabbed them, this was one, never read this short Lovecraft work, but always wanted to

And lastly, The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Path to Power, first in a series on Johnson by Robert Caro (considered one the greatest living biographers, who has spent 30+ years writing just this series alone, each book sometimes take upwards of a decade for him to complete)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Just finished The Name of The Wind. A marvelous book.

About to start on Gaiman's Neverwhere.

CR

[CountArach]

About to start on Gaiman's Neverwhere.

CR
Let me know what you think of it. My GF loves Gaiman's writing and I was thinking of getting her one of his books for Christmas.

I'm reading A Storm of Swords.

[Ser Clegane]

Bill Bryson - At Home: A short history of private life (http://www.amazon.co.uk/At-Home-short-history-private/dp/0552772550/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321289120&sr=1-1)

Quite entertaining - and I enjoy his way of telling little stories/anecdote, even if this approach tends to be somewhat superficial (but it encourages to find out more, IMO)

[JagRoss]

I'm reading (finished everything but the second appendix) "Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell.
This is the second of his books that I've read so far, the first being "Animal Farm".
I've enjoyed both of them, there're both about communism and his tone is both lighthearted and serious at the same time.

[Martok]

Am now halfway through Wraith Squadron, the fifth book in the X-Wing series.

I'm almost enjoying it more than the previous books (the ones written by Michael A. Stackpole), which comes as a pleasant surprise. There's a lot more humor in this book, and the characters are definitely quirkier. Aarron Allston's writing style is noticeably different from Stackpole's, but I'd say no less inferior (at least so far).

[rajpoot]

Finished A Feast for Crows.
Going to get a A Dance with Dragons soon.
Wikipedia says that there are two more books left after this. Considering the number of loose ends and unanswered questions though, I cannot see how GRRM can tie them all up in just two books, satisfactorily.
Pretty intriguing names though.
Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Makes one wonder if there is going to be a happy ending to books. The last book's name seems to suggest otherwise.

[Nowake]

Going through Snow (http://www.amazon.com/Everymans-Library-Cloth-Orhan-Pamuk/dp/0307700887/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322914116&sr=1-1) by Orhan Pamuk at a leisurely pace. If you've read My name is Red (http://www.amazon.com/Name-Everymans-Library-Classics-Contemporary/dp/0307593924/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1), you should pick Snow up as well, in spite of the chronological gap.



Oh and rajpoot, I actually went through the whole ASoIaF series while on a two-weeks vacation this summer. On the porch of the small mountain lodge we rented, it made a great read! The first fantasy series to have laid my hands on to date, I thought I should after seeing the HBO release.

Personally, I enjoyed A Dance with Dragons as well, because I actually enjoy the world-building side-details the most.
Yet to be honest, only the first two books maintain a solid narrative. From A Storm of Swords onwards, the plot just stumbles into some gaping non sequitur issues it never recovers from and the presence of fantasy elements is increased too much for my tolerance level.
The series is definitely not tripe however, despite the genre.

I believe I read in an interview Martin wished initially to stay well clear of fantasy, and simply create an alternate world.
A pity he did not follow up on that, I think he would have come very, very close to Maurice Druon's Les Roi Maudits (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-King-Accursed-Kings/dp/0712608761). In fact, the vivid medieval world ASoIaF depicts seems to me to have been very much modelled on Les Roi Maudits and A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings could have very well taken place in Druon's setting, while a host of Martin's characters were almost transposed from the French historical novel - compare Martin's Tywin Lannister to Druon's Phillipe the Fair for an exact mirror. Plus, despite it being a historical novel, Druon takes great care to render the collective mental horizon of the age by illustrating belief in magic as an element almost as present and real as it seemed in Martin's first two books. But I'm totally rambling off-topic by now, apologies!

[Montmorency]

The series is definitely not tripe however, despite the genre.


So, several years back, I asked myself what genre of fiction was most universally despised by literature professors, reasoning that this was where literature was most likely to happen. So I started with fantasy...

What do you say to that?

[Nowake]

I would say that I perceive 90% of fantasy to be tolkienesque.
And to why that is utter tripe, I would reply with:



Why is the Rings being widely read today? At a time when perhaps the world was never more in need of authentic experience, this story seems to provide a pattern of it. A businessman in Oxford told me that when tired or out of sorts he went to theRings for restoration. Lewis and various other critics believe that no book is more relevant to the human situation. W. H. Auden says that it "holds up the mirror to the only nature we know, our own." As for myself I was rereading the Rings at the time of Winston Churchill's funeral and I felt a distinct parallel between the two. For a few short hours the trivia which normally absorbs us was suspended and people experienced in common the meaning of leadership, greatness, valor, time redolent of timelessness, and common traits. Men became temporarily human and felt the life within them and about. Their corporate life lived for a little and made possible the sign of renewal alter a realisation such as occurs only once or twice in a lifetime.
For a century at least the world has been increasingly demythologized. But such a condition is apparently alien to the real nature of men. Now comes a writer such as John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and, as remythologizer, strangely warms our souls.

Clyde S. Kilby: "Meaning in the Lord of the Rings",
Shadows of Imagination, 1969





I have sometimes wondered how much the advent of steam influenced Victorian ballad poetry and romantic prose. Reading Dunsany, for instance, it often occurs to me that his early stories were all written during train journeys:
Up from the platform and onto the train
Got Welleran, Rollory and young Iraine.
Forgetful of sex and income tax
Were Sooranard, Mammolek, Akanax:
And in their dreams Dunsany's lord
Mislaid the communication cord.



The sort of prose most often identified with "high" fantasy is the prose of the nursery-room. It is a lullaby; it is meant to soothe and console. It is mouth-music. It is frequently enjoyed not for its tensions but for its lack of tensions. It coddles; it makes friends with you; it tells you comforting lies. It is soft:
One day when the sun had come back over the forest, bringing with it the scent of May, and all the streams of the Forest were tinkling happily to find themselves their own pretty shape again, and the little pools lay dreaming of the life they had seen and the big things they had done, and in the warmth and quiet of the Forest the cuckoo was trying over his voice carefully and listening to see if he liked it, and wood-pigeons were complaining gently to themselves in their lazy comfortable way that it was the other fellow's fault, but it didn't matter very much; on such a day as this Christopher Robin whistled in a special way he had, and Owl came flying out of the Hundred Acre Wood to see what was wanted.

Winnie-the-Pooh, 1926





It is the predominant tone of The Lord of the Rings and Watership Down and it is the main reason why these books, like many similar ones in the past, are successful. It is the tone of many forgotten British and American bestsellers, well-remembered children's books, like The Wind in the Willows, you often hear it in regional fiction addressed to a local audience, or, in a more sophisticated form, James Barrie (Dear Brutus, Mary Rose and, of course, Peter Pan). Unlike the tone of E.Nesbit (Five Children and It etc.), Richmal Crompton (the 'William' books) Terry Pratchett or the redoubtable J.K.Rowling, it is sentimental, slightly distanced, often wistful, a trifle retrospective; it contains little wit and much whimsy. The humour is often unconscious because, as with Tolkien (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953#), the authors take words seriously but without pleasure:
One summer's evening an astonishing piece of news reached the Ivy Bush and Green Dragon. Giants and other portents on the borders of the Shire were forgotten for more important matters; Mr. Frodo was selling Bag End, indeed he had already sold it-to the Sackville-Bagginses!
"For a nice bit, too," said some. "At a bargain price," said others, "and that's more likely when Mistress Lobelia's the buyer." (Otho had died some years before, at the ripe but disappointed age of 102.)
Just why Mr. Frodo was selling his beautiful hole was even more debatable than the price...

The Fellowship of the Ring, 1954





I have been told it is not fair to quote from the earlier parts of The Lord of the Rings, that I should look elsewhere to find much better stuff so, opening it entirely at random, I find some improvement in substance and writing, but that tone is still there:
Pippin became drowsy again and paid little attention to Gandalf telling him of the customs of Gondor, and how the Lord of the City had beacons built on the tops of outlying hills along both borders of the great range, and maintained posts at these points where fresh horses were always in readiness to bear his errand-riders to Rohan in the North, or to Belfalas in the South. "It is long since the beacons of the North were lit," he said; "and in the ancient days of Gondor they were not needed, for they had the Seven Stones."
Pippin stirred uneasily.

The Return of the King, 1955





Tolkien does, admittedly, rise above this sort of thing on occasions, in some key scenes, but often such a scene will be ruined by ghastly verse and it is remarkable how frequently he will draw back from the implications of the subject matter. Like Chesterton, and other orthodox Christian writers who substituted faith for artistic rigour he sees the petit bourgeoisie, the honest artisans and peasants, as the bulwark against Chaos. These people are always sentimentalized in such fiction because traditionally, they are always the last to complain about any deficiencies in the social status quo. They are a type familiar to anyone who ever watched an English film of the thirties and forties, particularly a war-film, where they represented solid good sense opposed to a perverted intellectualism. In many ways The Lord of the Rings is, if not exactly anti-romantic, an anti-romance. Tolkien, and his fellow "Inklings" (the dons who met in Lewis's Oxford rooms to read their work in progress to one another), had extraordinarily ambiguous attitudes towards Romance (and just about everything else), which is doubtless why his trilogy has so many confused moments when the tension flags completely. But he could, at his best, produce prose much better than that of his Oxford contemporaries who perhaps lacked his respect for middle-English poetry. He claimed that his work was primarily linguistic in its original conception, that there were no symbols or allegories to be found in it, but his beliefs permeate the book as thoroughly as they do the books of Charles Williams and C. S. Lewis, who, consciously or unconsciously, promoted their orthodox Toryism in everything they wrote. While there is an argument for the reactionary nature of the books, they are certainly deeply conservative and strongly anti-urban, which is what leads some to associate them with a kind of Wagnerish hitlerism. I don't think these books are 'fascist', but they certainly don't exactly argue with the 18th century enlightened Toryism with which the English comfort themselves so frequently in these upsetting times. They don't ask any questions of white men in grey clothing who somehow have a handle on what's best for us.

I suppose I respond so antipathetically to Lewis and Tolkien because I find this sort of consolatory orthodoxy as distasteful as any other self-serving misanthropic doctrine. One should perhaps feel some sympathy for the nervousness occasionally revealed beneath their thick layers of stuffy self-satisfaction, typical of the second-rate schoolmaster so cheerfully mocked by Peake and Rowling, but sympathy is hard to sustain in the teeth of their hidden aggression which is so often accompanied by a deep-rooted hypocrisy. Their theories dignify the mood of a disenchanted and thoroughly discredited section of the repressed English middle-class too afraid, even as it falls, to make any sort of direct complaint ("They kicked us out of Rhodesia, you know"), least of all to the Higher Authority, their Tory God who has evidently failed them.
It was best-selling novelists, like Warwick Deeping (Sorrell and Son), who, after the First World War, adapted the sentimental myths (particularly the myth of Sacrifice) which had made war bearable (and helped ensure that we should be able to bear further wars), providing us with the wretched ethic of passive "decency" and self-sacrifice, by means of which we British were able to console ourselves in our moral apathy (even Buchan paused in his anti-Semitic diatribes to provide a few of these). Moderation was the rule and it is moderation which ruins Tolkien's fantasy and causes it to fail as a genuine romance, let alone an epic. The little hills and woods of that Surrey of the mind, the Shire, are "safe", but the wild landscapes everywhere beyond the Shire are "dangerous". Experience of life itself is dangerous. The Lord of the Rings is a pernicious confirmation of the values of a declining nation with a morally bankrupt class whose cowardly self-protection is primarily responsible for the problems England answered with the ruthless logic of Thatcherism. Humanity was derided and marginalised. Sentimentality became the acceptable subsitute. So few people seem to be able to tell the difference.

The Lord of the Rings is much more deep-rooted in its infantilism than a good many of the more obviously juvenile books it influenced. It is Winnie-the-Pooh posing as an epic. If the Shire is a suburban garden, Sauron and his henchmen are that old bourgeois bugaboo, the Mob - mindless football supporters throwing their beer-bottles over the fence the worst aspects of modern urban society represented as the whole by a fearful, backward-yearning class for whom "good taste" is synonymous with "restraint" (pastel colours, murmured protest) and "civilized" behaviour means "conventional behaviour in all circumstances". This is not to deny that courageous characters are found in The Lord of the Rings, or a willingness to fight Evil (never really defined), but somehow those courageous characters take on the aspect of retired colonels at last driven to write a letter to The Times and we are not sure - because Tolkien cannot really bring himself to get close to his proles and their satanic leaders - if Sauron and Co. are quite as evil as we're told. After all, anyone who hates hobbits can't be all bad.
The appeal of the Shire has certain similarities with the appeal of the "Greenwood" which is, unquestionably, rooted in most of us:
In summer when the sheves be shene
And leaves be large and long,
It is full merry in fair forest
In hear the fowle's song;
To see the deer draw to the dale,
And leave the Hilles hee,
And shadow them in levès green,
Under the greenwood tree.
A Tale of Robin Hood
(quoted in Ancient Metrical Tales, 1829)


There is no happy ending to the Romance of Robin Hood, however, whereas Tolkien, going against the grain of his subject matter, forces one on us - as a matter of policy:
And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy stories provide many examples and modes of this - which might be called the genuine escapist, or (I would say) fugitive spirit. But so do other stories (notably those of scientific inspiration), and so do other studies... But the "consolation" of fairy-tales has another aspect than the imaginative satisfaction of ancient desires. For more important is the Consolation of the Happy Ending.

J. R. R. Tolkien, "On Fairy Stories"




The great epics dignified death, but they did not ignore it, and it is one of the reasons why they are superior to the artificial romances of which Lord of the Rings is merely one of the most recent.

Since the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, at least, people have been yearning for an ideal rural world they believe to have vanished - yearning for a mythical state of innocence (as Morris did) as heartily as the Israelites yearned for the Garden of Eden. This refusal to face or derive any pleasure from the realities of urban industrial life, this longing to possess, again, the infant's eye view of the countryside, is a fundamental theme in popular English literature. Novels set in the countryside probably always outsell novels set in the city, perhaps because most people now live in cities.

If I find this nostalgia for a "vanished" landscape a bit strange it is probably because as I write I can look from my window over twenty miles of superb countryside to the sea and a sparsely populated coast. This county, like many others, has seemingly limitless landscapes of great beauty and variety, unspoiled by excessive tourism or the uglier forms of industry. Elsewhere big cities have certainly destroyed the surrounding countryside but rapid transport now makes it possible for a Londoner to spend the time they would have needed to get to Box Hill forty years ago in getting to Northumberland. I think it is simple neophobia which makes people hate the modern world and its changing society; it is xenophobia which makes them unable to imagine what rural beauty might lie beyond the boundaries of their particular Shire. They would rather read Miss Read and The Horse Whisperer and share a miserable complaint or two on the commuter train while planning to take their holidays in Bournemouth, as usual, because they can't afford to go to Spain this year. They don't want rural beauty anyway; they want a sunny day, a pretty view.
Writers like Tolkien take you to the edge of the Abyss and point out the excellent tea-garden at the bottom, showing you the steps carved into the cliff and reminding you to be a bit careful because the hand-rails are a trifle shaky as you go down; they haven't got the approval yet to put a new one in.

I never liked A. A. Milne, even when I was very young. There is an element of conspiratorial persuasion in his tone that a suspicious child can detect early in life. Let's all be cosy, it seems to say (children's books are, after all, often written by conservative adults anxious to maintain an unreal attitude to childhood); let's forget about our troubles and go to sleep. At which I would find myself stirring to a sitting position in my little bed and responding with uncivilized bad taste.
According to C. S. Lewis his fantasies for children - his Narnia series of seven books beginning with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and ending with The Last Battle - were deliberate works of Christian propaganda. The books are a kind of Religious Tract Society version of the Oz books as written by E. Nesbit; but E. Nesbit would rarely have allowed herself Lewis's awful syntax, full of tacked-on clauses, lame qualifications, vague adjectives and unconscious repetitions; neither would she have written down to children as thoroughly as this childless don who remained a devoutly committed bachelor most of his life. Both Baum and Nesbit wrote more vigorously and more carefully:
Old Mombi had thought herself very wise to choose the form of a Griffin, for its legs were exceedingly fleet and its strength more enduring than that of other animals. But she had not reckoned on the untiring energy of the Saw-Horse, whose wooden limbs could run for days without slacking their speed. Therefore, after an hour's hard running, the Griffin's breath began to fail, and it panted and gasped painfully, and moved more slowly than before. Then it reached the edge of the desert and began racing across the deep sands. But its tired feet sank far into the sand, and in a few minutes the Griffin fell forward, completely exhausted, and lay still upon the desert waste.
Glinda came up a moment later, riding the still vigorous Saw-Horse; and having unwound a slender golden thread from her girdle the Sorceress threw it over the head of the panting and helpless Griffin, and so destroyed the magical power of Mombi's transformation.
For the animal, with one fierce shudder, disappeared from view, while in its place was discovered the form of the old Witch, glaring savagely at the serene and beautiful face of the Sorceress.

L. Frank Baum, The Land of Oz, 1904



Elfrida fired away, and the next moment it was plain that Elfrida's poetry was more potent than Edred's; also that a little bad grammar is a trifle to a mighty Mouldiwarp.
For the walls of Edred's room receded further and further till the children found themselves in a great white hall with avenues of tall pillars stretching in every direction as far as you could see. The hall was crowded with people dressed in costumes of all countries and all ages - Chinamen, Indians, Crusaders in armour, powdered ladies, doubleted gentlemen, Cavaliers in curls, Turks in turbans, Arabs, monks, abbesses, jesters, grandees with ruffs round their necks, and savages with kilts of thatch. Every kind of dress you can think of was there. Only all the dresses were white. It was like a redoute, which is a fancy-dress ball where the guests may wear any dress they choose, only the dresses must be of one colour.
The people round the children pushed them gently forward. And then they saw that in the middle of the hall was a throne of silver, spread with a fringed cloth of chequered silver and green, and on it, with the Mouldiwarp standing on one side and the Mouldierwarp on the other, the Mouldiestwarp was seated in state and splendour. He was much larger than either of the other moles, and his fur was as silvery as the feathers of a swan.

E. Nesbit, Harding's Luck, 1909




Here is a typical extract from Lewis's first Narnia book, which was superior to some which followed it and is a better than average example of Lewis's prose fiction for children or for adults:
It was nearly midday when they found themselves looking down a steep hillside at a castle - a little toy castle it looked from where they stood which seemed to be all pointed towers. But the Lion was rushing down at such a speed that it grew larger every moment and before they had time even to ask themselves what it was they were already on a level with it. And now it no longer looked like a toy castle but rose frowning in front of them. No face looked over the battlements and the gates were fast shut. And Aslan, not at all slacking his pace, rushed straight as a bullet towards it.
"The Witch's home!" he cried. "Now, children, hold tight."
Next moment the whole world seemed to turn upside down and the children felt as if they had left their insides behind them; for the Lion had gathered himself together for a greater leap than any he had yet made and jumped - or you may call it flying rather than jumping - right over the castle wall. The two girls, breathless but unhurt, found themselves tumbling off his back in the middle of a wide stone courtyard full of statues.

The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, 1950




As a child, I found that these books did not show me the respect I was used to from Nesbit or Baum, who also gave me denser, better writing and a wider vocabulary. The Cowardly Lion was a far more attractive character than Aslan and Crompton's William books were notably free from moral lessons. I think I would have enjoyed the work of Alan Garner, Susan Cooper and Ursula Le Guin much more. They display a greater respect for children and considerably more talent as writers. Here is Garner:
But as his head cleared, Cohn heard another sound, so beautiful that he never found rest again; the sound of a horn, like the moon on snow, and another answered it from the limits of the sky; and through the Brollachan ran silver lightnings, and he heard hoofs, and voices calling, "We ride! We ride!" and the whole cloud was silver, so that he could not look.
The hoof-beats drew near, and the earth throbbed. Cohn opened his eyes. Now the cloud raced over the ground, breaking into separate glories that wisped and sharpened the skeins of starlight, and were horsemen, and at their head was majesty, crowned with antlers, like the sun.
But as they crossed the valley, one of the riders dropped behind, and Colin saw that it was Susan. She lost ground though her speed was no less, and the light that formed her died, and in its place was a smaller, solid figure that halted, forlorn, in the white wake of the riding.
The horsemen climbed from the hillside to the air, growing vast in the sky, and to meet them came nine women, their hair like wind. And away they rode together across the night, over the waves, and beyond the isles, and the Old Magic was free forever, and the moon was new.

The Moon of Gomrath (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0152017968/revolutionsf-20), (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0152017968/revolutionsf-20) 1963




Evidently, Garner is a better writer than Lewis or Tolkien. In the three fantasy novels The Weirdstone of Brisingamen (1961), The Moon of Gomrath (1963) and Elidor (1965) his weakness, in common with similar writers, is his plot structure. In a later, better-structured book,The Owl Service (1970), he improved considerably (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953&page=3#).

This deficiency of structure is by no means evident in Ursula K. Le Guin, Gillian Bradshaw or Susan Cooper. For my taste Susan Cooper has produced one of the very best sequences of novels of their type (modern children involved in ancient mystical conflicts). They have much of Masefield's Box of Delights magic. Her sequence, The Dark is Rising, has some fine moments. The strongest books are the title volume and the final volume Silver in the Tree (1977), while some of the best writing can he found in The Grey King (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0689829841/revolutionsf-20) (1975):
They were no longer where they had been. They stood somewhere in another time, on the roof of the world. All around them was the open night sky, like a huge black inverted bowl, and in it blazed the stars, thousand upon thousand brilliant prickles of fire. Will heard Bran draw in a quick breath. They stood, looking up. The stars blazed round them. There was no sound anywhere, in all the immensity of space. Will felt a wave of giddiness; it was as if they stood on the last edge of the universe, and if they fell, they would fall out of Time... As he gazed about him, gradually he recognised the strange inversion of reality in which they were held. He and Bran were not standing in a timeless dark night observing the stars in the heavens. It was the other way around. They themselves were observed. Every blazing point in that great depthless hemisphere of stars and suns was focussed upon them, contemplating, considering, judging. For by following the quest for the golden harp, he and Bran were challenging the boundless might of the High Magic of the Universe. They must stand unprotected before it, on their way, and they would be allowed to pass only if they had the right by birth. Under that merciless starlight of infinity any unrightful challenger would be brushed into nothingness as effortlessly as a man might brush an ant from his sleeve.


Ursula K. Le Guin in her trilogy A Wizard of Earthsea (1968), The Tombs of Atuan (1971) andThe Farthest Shore (1972) is the only one of these three to set her stories entirely in a wholly invented world. She writes her books for children as conscientiously as she writes for adults (she is a leading and much admired sf author whose work has won many awards). Here is a passage from near the beginning, again with its echoes of Frazer's Golden Bough:
On the day the boy was thirteen years old, a day in the early splendour of autumn while still the bright leaves are on the trees, Ogion returned to the village from his rovings over Gont Mountain, and the ceremony of Passage was held. The witch took from the boy his name Duny, the name his mother had given him as a baby. Nameless and naked he walked into the cold springs of the Ar where it rises among the rocks under the high cliffs. As he entered the water clouds crossed the sun's face and great shadows slid and mingled over the water of the pool about him. He crossed to the far bank, shuddering with cold but walking slow and erect as he should through that icy, living water. As he came to the bank Ogion, waiting, reached out his hand and clasping the boy's arm whispered to him his true name: Ged.
Thus was he given his name by one very wise in the use of power.

A Wizard of Earthsea (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553262505/revolutionsf-20)




Lloyd Alexander is another American writer who has had considerable success with his books set in an invented and decidedly Celtic fantasy world, but for my taste he never quite succeeds in matching the three I have mentioned. He uses more clichés and writes a trifle flaccidly:
The Horned King stood motionless, his arm upraised. Lightning played about his sword. The giant flamed like a burning tree. The stag horns turned to crimson streaks, the skull mask ran like molten iron. A roar of pain and rage rose from the Antlered King's throat.
With a cry, Taran flung an arm across his face. The ground rumbled and seemed to open beneath him. Then there was nothing.

The Book of Three, 1964




One does become a little tired, too, of Hern the Hunter turning up here. Another legacy from Frazer. Sometimes he appears in books of this kind almost as an embarrassment, as if convention demands his presence: an aging and rather vague bishop doing his bit at official services.
There are a good many more such fantasies now being written for children and on the whole they are considerably better than the imitations written ostensibly for adults. Perhaps the authors feel more at ease when writing about and for children - as if they are forced to tell fewer lies (or at least answer fewer fundamental questions) to themselves or their audience.
Among these newer writers, Gillian Bradshaw has produced yet another Arthurian trilogy. This one, however, is written from the point of view of Gwalchmai, the son of the King of Orkney and Queen Morgawse (who might be a sorceress). He encounters the Sidhe, some of whom help him as he journeys to be with King who is fighting a desperate battle against the Saxon invaders. Bradshaw's writing is clear and vibrant, her story-telling has pace and verve.
She lifted her arms and the Darkness leapt. But she was distant again, and I stood at Camlann. I looked up and saw Lugh standing in the west, opposite Morgawse, holding his arm above the island so that the Queen could not touch it. Behind was light too brilliant, too glorious to be seen. For a moment I saw these two confronting one another, and then my field of vision narrowed. I saw the island and the figures of armies. I saw the Family and myself in it. The armies began to move, and the sounds of battle arose. I realized that I saw things that were yet to come, and was terrified. I covered my face with my arms and cried, "No more!"
And abruptly there was silence.

Hawk of May (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671250930/revolutionsf-20), 1981




The subsequent books in this sequence are Kingdom of Summer (1982) and In Winter's Shadow (1983).
Several of the emerging children's novelists actually display more original gifts and greater talent than the majority of those ostensibly for adults. In my view Robin McKinley is one of the very best of these. Her The Blue Sword (1982) won the John Newbery Medal in 1984 and she is building an excellent reputation. The Blue Sword is the first of her Chronicles of Damar. She has a fresh and interesting approach to the genre which immediately makes it into something of her own. Her style is robust, elegant and considered, qualities which are a great relief after so many clunking archaicisms and cuticisms which inhabit the great majority of present-day fantasies. Angharad Crewe, the young woman who is her central character, is far more likeable than the tribe of leggy, slightly awkward, pony-loving teenagers appearing all too frequently in recent fantasies. Again McKinley's writing makes me wish I had been able to read them when I was young. They would have been a wonderful antidote to the bland fare which generally became acceptable on all the myriad planes and demi-planes of the English middle-class when I was young.
The power that washed over that face, that rolled down the arms and into the sword and shield, was that of demonkind, and Harry knew she was no match for this one, and in spite of the heat of Gonturan in her hand her heart was cold with fear. The two stallions reared again and reached out to tear each other; the white stallion's neck was now ribboned with blood, like the real ribbons he wore in his mane. Harry raised her sword arm and felt the shock of the answer, the hilts of the swords ring together, and sparks flew from the crash, and it seemed that the smoke rose from them and blinded her. The other rider's hot breath was in her face. His lips parted and she saw his tongue: it was scarlet, and looked more like fire than living flesh.

The Blue Sword (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441068804/revolutionsf-20)




After reading a good many of these contemporary fantasy stories I remained impressed by the number of authors of adult books who described their characters as children and the number of children's writers who produce perfectly mature and sensible characters who think and act intelligently. I found myself wishing that the likes of McKinley would choose to do more work for grown-ups. Perhaps the reason they don't is that they find they can, writing for teenagers, preserve a greater respect for their audience.

Another variety of book has begun to appear, a sort of Pooh-fights-back fiction of the kind produced by Richard Adams, which substitutes animals for human protagonists, contains a familiar set of middle-class Anglican Tory undertones (all these books seem to be written with a slight lisp) and is certainly already more corrupt than Tolkien. Adams is a worse writer but he must appeal enormously to all those many readers who have never quite lost their yearning for the frisson first felt when Peter Rabbit was expelled from Mr. Macgregor's garden:
As Dandelion ended, Acorn, who was on the windward side of the little group, suddenly started and sat back, with ears up and nostrils twitching. The strange, rank smell was stronger than ever and after a few moments they all heard a heavy movement close by. Suddenly, on the other side of the path, the fern parted and there looked out a long, dog-like head, striped black and white. It was pointed downward, the jaws grinning, the muzzle close to the ground. Behind, they could just discern great, powerful paws and a shaggy black body. The eyes were peering at them, full of savage cunning. The head moved slowly, taking in the dusky lengths of the wood ride in both directions, and then fixed them once more with its fierce, terrible stare. The jaws opened wider and they could see the teeth, glimmering white as the stripes along the head. For long moments it gazed and the rabbits remained motionless, staring back without a sound. Then Bigwig, who was nearest to the path, turned and slipped back among the others.
"A lendri," he muttered as he passed through them. "It may be dangerous and it may not, but I'm taking no chances with it. Let's get away."

Watership Down, 1972




Adams's follow-up to this was Shardik (1974), better written, apparently for adults, and quite as silly. It was about a big bear who died four our sins: Martyred Pooh. Later, The Plague Dogs(1977) displayed an almost paranoid conservative misanthropism.

I sometimes think that as Britain declines, dreaming of a sweeter past, entertaining few hopes for a finer future, her middle-classes turn increasingly to the fantasy of rural life and talking animals, the safety of the woods that are the pattern of the paper on the nursery room wall. Old hippies, housewives, civil servants, share in this wistful trance; eating nothing as dangerous or exotic as the lotus, but chewing instead on a form of mildly anaesthetic British cabbage. If the bulk of American sf could be said to be written by robots, about robots, for robots, then the bulk of English fantasy seems to be written by rabbits, about rabbits and for rabbits.
How much further can it go?

Of the children's writers only Lewis and Adams are guilty, in my opinion, of producing thoroughly corrupted romanticism - sentimentalized pleas for moderation of aspiration which are at the root of their kind of conservatism. In Lewis's case this consolatory, anxiety-stilling "Why try to play Mozart when it's easier to play Rodgers and Hammerstein?" attitude extended to his non-fiction, particularly the dreadful but influential Experiment in Criticism. But these are, anyway, minor figures. It is Tolkien who is most widely read and worshipped. And it was Tolkien who most betrayed the romantic discipline, more so than ever Tennyson could in Idylls of the King, which enjoyed a similar vogue in Victorian England.

Corrupted romanticism is as unwholesome as the corrupted realism of, say, Ayn Rand. Cabell's somewhat obvious irony is easier to take than Tolkien's less obvious sentimentality, largely because Cabell's writing is wittier, more inventive and better disciplined. I find William Morris naïve and silly but essentially good-hearted (and a better utopianist than a fantasist); Dunsany I find slight but inoffensive. Lewis speaks for the middle-class status quo, as, more subtly, does Charles Williams. Lewis uses the stuff of fantasy to preach sermons quite as nasty as any to be found in Victorian sentimental fiction, and he writes badly. A group of self-congratulatory friends can often ensure that any writing emerging from it remains hasty and unpolished.

Ideally fiction should offer us escape and force us, at least, to ask questions; it should provide a release from anxiety but give us some insight into the causes of anxiety. Lin Carter, in hisImaginary Worlds - the only book I have been able to find on the general subject of epic fantasy (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953&page=5#) - uses an argument familiar to those who are used to reading apologies from that kind of sf or thriller buff who feels compelled to justify his philistinism: "The charge of 'escapist reading,'" says Carter, "is most often levelled against fantasy and science fiction by those who have forgotten or overlooked the simple fact that virtually all reading - all music and poetry and art and drama and philosophy for that matter - is a temporary escape from what is around us." Like so many of his colleagues in the professional sf world, Carter expresses distaste for fiction which is not predominantly escapist by charging it with being "depressing" or "negative" if it does not provide him with the moral and psychological comforts he seems to need. An unorthodox view, such as that of Tolkien's contemporary David Lindsay (Voyage to Arcturus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0803280041/revolutionsf-20)), is regarded as a negative view. This, of course, is the response of those deeply and often unconsciously wedded to their cultural presumptions, who regard examination of them as an attack.

Carter dismisses Spenser as "dull" and Joyce as "a titanic bore" and writes in clichés, euphemisms and wretchedly distorted syntax, telling us that the PreRaphaelites were "lisping exquisites" and that Ford Madox Brown (1821-93) was a young man attracted to the movement by Morris's (1834-96) fiery Welsh (born Walthamstow, near London) dynamism and that because Tolkien got a CBE (not a knighthood) we must now call him "Sir John" - but Carter, at least, is not the snob some American adherents are (and there is nobody more risible than the provincial American literary snob - Gore Vidal being the most developed example). In a recent anthology compiled by Robert H. Boyer and Kenneth J. Zahorski, The Fantastic Imagination, we find the following: "In addition to their all being high fantasy, the stories selected here are good literature." Amongst the writers to be found in the volume are C. S. Lewis, John Buchan, Frank R. Stockton and Lloyd Alexander, not one of whom can match the literary talents of, say, Fritz Leiber (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565048741/revolutionsf-20), whose work has primarily been published in commercial magazines and genre paperback series. For years American thriller buffs with pretensions ignored Hammett and Chandler in favour of inferior English writers like D. L. Sayers and here we see the same thing occurring with American fantasy writers. Those who produce the closest approximation to an English style are most praised. Those who use more vigorous American models are regarded as less literary! The crux of the thing remains: the writers admired are not "literary" or "literate". As often as not they flatter middle-brow sensibilities and reinforce middle-class sentimentality and therefore do not threaten a carefully maintained set of social and intellectual assumptions.
Yet Tennyson, who had his moments, inspired better poets who followed him, who sought the origin of his inspiration and made nobler use of it. Both Swinburne and Morris could, for instance, employ the old ballad metres more effectively than Tennyson himself, refusing, unlike him, to modify their toughness. Doubtless Tolkien will also inspire writers who will take his raw materials and put them to nobler uses. I would love to believe that the day of the rural romance is done at last.

The commercial genre which has developed from Tolkien is probably the most dismaying effect of all. I grew up in a world where Joyce was considered to be the best Anglophone writer of the 20th century. I happen to believe that Faulkner is better, while others would pick Conrad, say. Thomas Mann is an exemplary giant of moral, mythic fiction. But to introduce Tolkien's fantasy into such a debate is a sad comment on our standards and our ambitions. Is it a sign of our dumber times that Lord of the Rings can replace Ulysses as the exemplary book of its century? Some of the writers who most slavishly imitate him seem to be using English as a rather inexpertly-learned second language. So many of them are unbelievably bad that they defy description and are scarcely worth listing individually. Terry Pratchett once remarked that all his readers were called Kevin. He is lucky in that he appears to be the only Terry in fantasy land who is able to write a decent complex sentence. That such writers also depend upon recycling the plots of their literary superiors and are rewarded for this bland repetition isn't surprising in a world of sensation movies and manufactured pop bands. That they are rewarded with the lavish lifestyles of the most successful whores is also unsurprising. To pretend that this addictive cabbage is anything more than the worst sort of pulp historical romance or western is, however, a depressing sign of our intellectual decline and our free-falling academic standards.

[Nowake]

That might be one of the most articulate and insightful reviews I've ever read. If you make a post without pointing out the flaws in his reasoning, you are the one who seems to simply not like what his "revision" taught you about the author and who decides to dismiss without being able to disprove it.

Lets be fair :bow:

[Nowake]

he’s trying to tout his opinion as the unspoken truth
I think this is where we disagree. He of course wishes to express his thoughts. Those being overly critical, they may seem to cut deep, yet I cannot see how he could develop his train of thought or how is he claiming the infallibility you write of.

I also think nothing there talked about Tolkien’s fault for not producing the very best fantasy; it addressed the shallowness of the cultural anxieties expressed in his prose and the corrupting influence those had on the genre.
There are a few passages where I simply cannot find any fault in his logic; boldfaced a few :bow:



The sort of prose most often identified with "high" fantasy is the prose of the nursery-room
. It is a lullaby; it is meant to soothe and console. It is mouth-music. It is frequently enjoyed not for its tensions but for its lack of tensions. It coddles; it makes friends with you; it tells you comforting lies. (...) It is the predominant tone of The Lord of the Rings and Watership Down and it is the main reason why these books, like many similar ones in the past, are successful.

(...) The great epics dignified death, but they did not ignore it, and it is one of the reasons why they are superior to the artificial romances of which Lord of the Rings is merely one of the most recent.


Since the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, at least, people have been yearning for an ideal rural world they believe to have vanished - yearning for a mythical state of innocence (as Morris did) as heartily as the Israelites yearned for the Garden of Eden. This refusal to face or derive any pleasure from the realities of urban industrial life, this longing to possess, again, the infant's eye view of the countryside, is a fundamental theme in popular English literature. Novels set in the countryside probably always outsell novels set in the city, perhaps because most people now live in cities.
If I find this nostalgia for a "vanished" landscape a bit strange it is probably because as I write I can look from my window over twenty miles of superb countryside to the sea and a sparsely populated coast. This county, like many others, has seemingly limitless landscapes of great beauty and variety, unspoiled by excessive tourism or the uglier forms of industry. Elsewhere big cities have certainly destroyed the surrounding countryside but rapid transport now makes it possible for a Londoner to spend the time they would have needed to get to Box Hill forty years ago in getting to Northumberland. I think it is simple neophobia which makes people hate the modern world and its changing society; it is xenophobia which makes them unable to imagine what rural beauty might lie beyond the boundaries of their particular Shire. They would rather read Miss Read and The Horse Whisperer and share a miserable complaint or two on the commuter train while planning to take their holidays in Bournemouth, as usual, because they can't afford to go to Spain this year. They don't want rural beauty anyway; they want a sunny day, a pretty view.
Writers like Tolkien take you to the edge of the Abyss and point out the excellent tea-garden at the bottom, showing you the steps carved into the cliff and reminding you to be a bit careful because the hand-rails are a trifle shaky as you go down; they haven't got the approval yet to put a new one in.

(...) After reading a good many of these contemporary fantasy stories I remained impressed by the number of authors of adult books who described their characters as children and the number of children's writers who produce perfectly mature and sensible characters who think and act intelligently.

(...) Of the children's writers only Lewis and Adams are guilty, in my opinion, of producing thoroughly corrupted romanticism - sentimentalized pleas for moderation of aspiration which are at the root of their kind of conservatism. In Lewis's case this consolatory, anxiety-stilling "Why try to play Mozart when it's easier to play Rodgers and Hammerstein?" attitude extended to his non-fiction, particularly the dreadful but influential Experiment in Criticism. But these are, anyway, minor figures. It is Tolkien who is most widely read and worshipped. And it was Tolkien who most betrayed the romantic discipline, more so than ever Tennyson could in Idylls of the King, which enjoyed a similar vogue in Victorian England.

Corrupted romanticism is as unwholesome as the corrupted realism of, say, Ayn Rand. Cabell's somewhat obvious irony is easier to take than Tolkien's less obvious sentimentality, largely because Cabell's writing is wittier, more inventive and better disciplined. I find William Morris naïve and silly but essentially good-hearted (and a better utopianist than a fantasist); Dunsany I find slight but inoffensive. Lewis speaks for the middle-class status quo, as, more subtly, does Charles Williams. Lewis uses the stuff of fantasy to preach sermons quite as nasty as any to be found in Victorian sentimental fiction, and he writes badly. A group of self-congratulatory friends can often ensure that any writing emerging from it remains hasty and unpolished.


Ideally fiction should offer us escape and force us, at least, to ask questions; it should provide a release from anxiety but give us some insight into the causes of anxiety. Lin Carter, in his Imaginary Worlds - the only book I have been able to find on the general subject of epic fantasy - uses an argument familiar to those who are used to reading apologies from that kind of sf or thriller buff who feels compelled to justify his philistinism: "The charge of 'escapist reading,'" says Carter, "is most often levelled against fantasy and science fiction by those who have forgotten or overlooked the simple fact that virtually all reading - all music and poetry and art and drama and philosophy for that matter - is a temporary escape from what is around us." Like so many of his colleagues in the professional sf world, Carter expresses distaste for fiction which is not predominantly escapist by charging it with being "depressing" or "negative" if it does not provide him with the moral and psychological comforts he seems to need. An unorthodox view, such as that of Tolkien's contemporary David Lindsay (Voyage to Arcturus), is regarded as a negative view. This, of course, is the response of those deeply and often unconsciously wedded to their cultural presumptions, who regard examination of them as an attack.

(...)The commercial genre which has developed from Tolkien is probably the most dismaying effect of all. I grew up in a world where Joyce was considered to be the best Anglophone writer of the 20th century. I happen to believe that Faulkner is better, while others would pick Conrad, say. Thomas Mann is an exemplary giant of moral, mythic fiction. But to introduce Tolkien's fantasy into such a debate is a sad comment on our standards and our ambitions. Is it a sign of our dumber times that Lord of the Rings can replace Ulysses as the exemplary book of its century? Some of the writers who most slavishly imitate him seem to be using English as a rather inexpertly-learned second language. So many of them are unbelievably bad that they defy description and are scarcely worth listing individually. Terry Pratchett once remarked that all his readers were called Kevin. He is lucky in that he appears to be the only Terry in fantasy land who is able to write a decent complex sentence. That such writers also depend upon recycling the plots of their literary superiors and are rewarded for this bland repetition isn't surprising in a world of sensation movies and manufactured pop bands. That they are rewarded with the lavish lifestyles of the most successful whores is also unsurprising. To pretend that this addictive cabbage is anything more than the worst sort of pulp historical romance or western is, however, a depressing sign of our intellectual decline and our free-falling academic standards.

[Montmorency]

Sounds exemplary of the arrogance of the Eng. Lit. elites.


The great epics dignified death, but they did not ignore it

In what sense does LOTR "ignore" death? Is it literal, referring to the Gandalfian resurrection?



Since the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, at least, people have been yearning for an ideal rural world they believe to have vanished

That's Tolkien's idea, not necessarily his readers'.


I think it is simple neophobia which makes people hate the modern world and its changing society; it is xenophobia which makes them unable to imagine what rural beauty might lie beyond the boundaries of their particular Shire.

It's not parochialism that fantasy readers seem to be motivated by, but rather a thirst for the exotic.

The authors' biggest mistake is taking the fact of fantasy as a typically escapist genre, and somehow coming to the conclusion that readers and Roman consumers of pastoralist poetry are identical.



This, of course, is the response of those deeply and often unconsciously wedded to their cultural presumptions,

*ahem*


Corrupted romanticism

Is there an uncorrupted romanticism? Wouldn't all those 19th c. novels be guilty of "coddling" and "telling comforting lies" as well?


The commercial genre which has developed from Tolkien is probably the most dismaying effect of all.

Inspired by Tolkien, but not really like Tolkien. Important thing to note.

What does Watership Down have to do with any of this, though. I remember it as a book concerning the massacre of anthropomorphized rabbits. Doesn't seem to jive with


expresses distaste for fiction which is not predominantly escapist by charging it with being "depressing" or "negative"

Neither does LOTR, for that matter. Unless he's merely against happy endings. Hm, maybe that's the problem. Has this guy ever actually read any fantasy?

Meh. While we're dropping 'erudite' essays - this one actually takes the idea of escapism and examines it critically, instead of wailing about WESTERN INTELLECTUAL DECLINE FANTASY BOOGEYMAN.

Dragons Over Spaceships: Fantasy and Science Fiction as Cultural Prostheses
OPENING REMARKS

I should begin by saying that I’m not qualified to make any of the claims that follow. I think I have something interesting to say, but there’s a damn good chance I don’t. I leave that for you to decide, while sheltering behind that ancient axiom of informal reasoning which asserts that the truth or falsity of claims is independent of those foolish enough to make them.

INTRODUCTION

I want to talk about the relation between our contemporary experience of time and the genres of fantasy and science fiction. In particular, I want to discuss the process of what might be called ‘stranding,’ the way in which technological innovation and theoretical disenchantment, the twin dividends of institutionalized science, have marooned us outside of time.

ARGUMENT

My argument then, might run something as follows: Both genres, I will argue, are a result of a pernicious way ‘scientific progress’ has transformed our experience of the world.

To model this transformation of experience, I will adapt what the conceptual historian Reinhart Koselleck calls the ‘horizon of expectation’ and the ‘space of experience.’ Science fiction and fantasy, I will contend, are the result of the way the applications and implications of science have crippled these two fundamental features of our experience. On the one hand, the applications of science have pressed our horizon of expectation to the point of collapse by accelerating the pace of change. On the other hand, the implications of science threaten to collapse our space of experience by eradicating, rather than simply discrediting, intentionality.

Both science fiction and fantasy are attempts to compensate for these impending phenomenological disasters. Both genres are consolatory. Where science fiction attempts to recover our lost horizon of expectation through narrative, fantasy attempts to recover our lost space of experience through narrative.

REINHART KOSELLECK: AN ADAPTATION

Since the Enlightenment, science has gradually supplanted traditional forms of cognition, becoming the very paradigm of rationality in contemporary society. In addition to telling us how the world works, science now tells us what to eat, how to live, even how to raise our children. And well it should. Science is, without any doubt, the most powerful instrument of discovery humanity has ever known.

Insofar as scientific truth claims make things like cures for smallpox and thermonuclear explosions possible, science cannot simply be one network of ‘language games’ among others. Declaring that scientific truth claims ultimately stand upon the same consensual or formal quicksand as, say, literary or philosophical truth claims elides the very distinction that demands explanation. Theoretical truth claims generated by scientific institutions empower in a way at drastic odds with theoretical truth claims generated elsewhere–end of story. Any theory of meaning that cannot convincingly explain this remarkable difference is either incomplete or insolvant.

My point here is not so much to dismiss ‘fiction friendly’ theories such as contextualism, social constructivism, post-structuralism, and the like as to recall the incontrovertible difference between science and other institutional modes of theoretical cognition. When it comes to efficacious theoretical cognition, science really is the only game in town. We should be as much in awe of science as we are of the horrors and marvels that it makes possible. Whatever knowledge is, science is its most powerful expression. Whatever rationality is, science is its most forceful example. Far and away.

Before science, we largely relied on intentional explanations to understand ourselves and the world. Intentional explanations, crudely put, generate understanding by giving reasons and purposes for things and events. They also reference norms and values. Whenever we give reasons for our actions, we are not only providing others with explanations, we are often providing justifications as well. We ground our children ‘to teach them a lesson.’ We buy a bottle of fine wine ‘to make an impression.’ We give to charity ‘to do the right thing.’ And so on.

We moderns generally confine such explanations to human interactions and activities. Our premodern ancestors, on the other hand, used them to understand the entire world. For them, everything possessed ‘intent,’ criminal or otherwise. Storms, animals, madness, menstrual cycles, nearly everything was understood intentionally, attributed either to invisible agencies or to grand designs. For our premodern ancestors, the world was simply an extension of their community, constrained by similar codes of conduct, and moved by similar passions and purposes.

But storms are the result of complex meteorological processes, not the instruments of vengeful gods. Likewise, madness is the result of complex neurophysiological processes, not the sign of demonic possession. Our ancestors, in other words, were deluded. Our intentional understanding of ourselves and one another, it turns out, is entirely inappropriate to the world.

Since the Enlightenment, our understanding of the world has become less and less intentional and more and more functional. What is commonly referred to as ‘the scientific disenchantment of the world,’ is in fact a scientific ‘deintentionalization’ or ‘functionalization’ of the world. Wherever science has turned its scrutiny, intentionality has evaporated, to be replaced by functional accounts that have given us extraordinary power. The world, it seems, is a vast, stochastic mechanism. After four scant centuries of substituting intentional with functional explanations, we have acquired a power that our forebears would consider godlike.

Both the picture and the power, the theories and the technological applications of science, have irrevocably changed the status and character of our experience when compared to that of our ancestors. In order to chart this transformation, I will adapt a schema used by the German intellectual historian, Reinhart Koselleck. The specifics of his account, and the problems he encounters (such as equivocating categories like expectation and hope), stand outside the scope of this paper. For those of you interested in exploring his ideas further, I refer you to his Futures Past: On the Semantics of Historical Time.

In Futures Past, Reinhart Koselleck investigates the history of our modern experience of historical time–what he calls Neuzeit. The first problem posed by such an investigation, he realizes, is the fact that we, as moderns, are forced to study the history of Neuzeit through the lense of Neuzeit. We become embroiled in what Koselleck calls ‘the vortex of historicization.’ (271). We can never quite be certain what belongs to the history and what belongs to the lense.

Rather than adopting a hermeneutic methodology, where the circular relation between our initial implicit understanding and our final explicit understanding is virtuous rather than vicious, Koselleck turns to what can only be called a phenomenology of time consciousness, namely, the relation between experience and expectation. Experience and expectation, he claims, provide the fixed phenomenological framework needed to map the mutation of our premodern experience of historical time into Neuzeit.

Though Koselleck poses experience and expectation as transcendental categories, what he means by the terms is quite straightforward. Experience, for Koselleck, is simply what has been lived, whereas expectation is simply the apprehension of what will be lived. Since we experience what has been lived as a kind of differential totality, Koselleck refers to the ‘space of experience.’ Since we experience our apprehension of what will be lived as a kind of limit, he refers to the ‘horizon of expectation.’

For Koselleck, our continually mutating experience of historical time is constituted by the shifting relationship between the space of our experience and the horizon of our expectation. By considering the impact of different socio-cultural phenomena on experience and expectation, we can infer crucial differences between the contemporary experience of time as opposed to say, the ancient experience.

So for example, the fact that the accelerating pace of technological innovation has rendered us the first generation in the history of the human race that cannot reliably anticipate that even fundamental social institutions such as universities will exist in a recognizable form in a generation’s time, means that our horizon of expectation differs profoundly from that of, say, a pre-Enlightenment yeoman. Add to that the false ideology of individualism (which produces an exaggerated sense of individual agency), the myth of ‘upward mobility’ (which produces an exaggerated sense of economic possibility), and what are essentially theological concepts of ‘progress,’ and our experience of the future is even further transformed.

Given the slow pace of technological innovation, our pre-Enlightenment ancestors could reliably expect that their children and their grandchildren would live much the same as they lived, work much the same as they worked, and that the social institutions they served would remain largely unchanged. Also, locked into a rigid social hierarchy and lacking any concept of secular ‘self-improvement,’* they would not hope for much beyond what experience had already offered them.

What this suggests is that the horizon of expectation for our pre-Enlightenment ancestors was continuous with the space of their experience, whereas ours has become discontinuous in the extreme, to the point that we now expect　the obsolescence of our experience, which is to say, we expect the unexpected.

For our ancestors, the future could be known on the basis of past and present experience. Not so for us, primarily because of science (and it’s evil twin, capitalism, but that’s another story. In modernity, everyone ‘hopes to be a millionaire,’ which is to say, everyone hopes to join the largely hereditary elite that subsists on the surplus labour of the masses. We are accustomed to entertaining hopes detached from our daily experience).

Some might suggest that losing cognitive access to the future is a small price to pay for the cognitive access to the present we moderns have gained as a result of science. Our ancestors may have been assured a future that conformed to the space of their experience, but in so many ways that experience was utterly deluded. The intentional explanations they adduced for the world were at best flattering palliatives and at worst subreptive rationalizations of oppression. Good riddance.

The problem, however, is that experience is fundamentally intentional. Not only is it intentional in Brentano’s sense of ‘aboutness,’ it is also intentional in the umbrella sense of the term, which includes normativity, affectivity, and purposiveness. Experience is intentional through and through. This is why we say the intentional explanation of the world results in anthropomorphism, the erroneous attribution of human norms, affects, and purposes to what is in truth an arbitrary and indifferent world.

In addition to closing down our horizon of expectation, science also assails our space of experience. In order to cognize the world we must filter out the intentional malapropisms that fundamentally characterize our experience. What this means is that in a large measure, we no longer recognize the world we presently experience. We quite literally live in an alien world. Since we are part of that world this also means we no longer recognize ourselves. We are ourselves alien.

So for instance, where our pre-Enlightenment ancestors lived in a world steeped in moral significance, we live in a world where value is an illusion. Evolutionary biology, for instance, states that ‘moral intuitions’ are experiential subreptions selected for because they provide the requisite social cohesion necessary for the successful rearing of offspring. There’s no good, no evil, not really, only the effective transmission of genetic material. The same might be said of familial cohesion and ‘love,’ or should we say ‘pair bonding.’ Or how about babies? Infants are cute, not because they are in fact cute, but because cuteness as an experiential response was selected for because it facilitated parent-child pair bonding, which in turn effected the successful transmission of genetic material… And so on, and so on.

Of course the same goes for that other cherished feature of experience, purposiveness. In contrast to our pre-Enlightenment ancestors, we moderns know ‘shit just happens’–though a great many of us hope otherwise. There’s no reasons, only causes. The power of science to monopolize rationality has reached such an extent that one can no longer ask the question, ‘What is the meaning of life?’ and still be ‘rational.’ Since there’s no scientific answer to this question, and since science is the paradigm of rationality, the question becomes irrational, silly, the subject matter of Monty Python spoofs.

Compared to our ancestors then, we are stranded, shipwrecked, not just in the present, but in a present that isn’t real. Our horizon of expectation has collapsed, and the space of our experience has been dispossessed. And it is this state of affairs, I would like to argue, that provides the socio-phenomenological foundations of science fiction and fantasy. Both genres, I want to suggest, are best understood as symbolic compensatory mechanisms for our stranded souls. In other words, both genres are best understood as cultural prostheses.

THE SOCIO-PHENOMENOLOGY OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY

If a culture were trying to compensate for phenomenologico-cognitive deficits such as these, for our contemporary experience of stranding, what might we expect to arise as a result?

Given the cognitive opacity of the future one might expect a culture to offer ‘cognitive seeming’ accounts of what we might expect. Since we know only that the future will be different, and since what we want is cognition–or the semblance of it, anyway–what need is someway of getting from here and now to there and then which gives the impression of cognition. What we need, in other words, are pseudo-cognitive transformation rules that provide the semblance of a horizon of expectation. Since science is the paradigm of knowledge, one might expect these rules to be ‘apparently scientific.’ Since technological innovation is the obvious ‘problem,’ one might expect it to constitute the primary locus for these rules.

In other words, one might expect the development of science fiction or something like it.

Given the gap between the intentional world of our experience (what is commonly called, following Husserl, the Lebenswelt, or ‘lifeworld’)–the world we recognize–and the deintentionalized world described by scientific theory–the world we cognize–one might expect a culture to generate surrogates, worlds where recognition is cognition. Since the scientific deintentionalization of the world has caused this lacuna, one might expect these alternate worlds to repudiate the validity of science. Since all we possess are pre-scientific, historical contexts as models for ‘intentional worlds without science,’ one might expect these to provide the models for these alternate worlds. Put differently, one might expect culture to provide ‘associative elimination rules,’ ways to abstract from the present, for the production of alternate intentional contexts which conform to, and so repatriate, the otherwise displaced space of our experience.

One might expect the development of fantasy literature or something like it.

For us, the future world is as opaque to cognition as the present world is transparent and alien. For our prescientific ancestors, the situation was the opposite: the future world was as transparent to cognition as the present world was opaque and familiar. Where the future is our mirror, the present was theirs. We now bounce light off the future to symbolically illuminate ourselves, while our ancestors, unable to penetrate experience, saw themselves literally reflected across their present–they anthropomorphized. Where we write science fiction and fantasy, they wrote scripture–what we now call myth.

SOME SUGGESTIVE HIGHLIGHTS

1) The prevailing assumption seems to be that science fiction and fantasy are wedded in the vague sense that both are ‘speculative,’ and that, for arbitrary historical reasons, they share the same cultural industrial outputs–the publishers of the one tend to be the publishers of the other. The suggestion here is that their connection is both far more intimate and far more profound. We have already considered how, socio-historically, they are both a consequence of the institutional dominance of science.

2) The novum or nova which as as I can tell, are typically thought of as points of differentiation, should be seen the points of extension, the points which explain, and therefore domesticate, the differences which define the alternate context at hand. Science fiction is primarily involved in establishing pseudo-cognitive continuities. The ‘encounter with difference’ characteristic of science fiction, on this account, is simply a side-effect of rule-governed mapping of the familiar onto the alien–which is the structure of cognition. In this account, estrangement is the phenomenological origin, rather than the result of science fiction. Science fiction, in other words, is primarily a literature of recovery. On this account, otherness or alterity belong first and foremost to the future.

3) If science fiction is comparatively ‘socially progressive,’ it has more to do with the implicit understanding that traditional biases against various groups will be progressively discredited, (leaving only the economically rationalized biases against the longest suffering and most systematically oppressed: the poor). In other words, it belongs to the transformation rules. Likewise, if fantasy is comparatively ‘socially conservative,’ it has to do with the elimination rules: the associative connections between traditional biases and traditional conceptions of the world are difficult to overcome.

4) Both genres are invested in providing the semblance of recovery, which is why science fiction is no more about the actual future than fantasy is about the actual past. Both genres offer the illusion of cognition, be it functional or intentional.

5) In terms of what Heidegger calls the ‘ontological difference,’ science fiction is primarily an ontic discourse, a discourse concerned with beings within the world, whereas fantasy is primarily an ontological one, a discourse concerned with Being itself. What this suggests is that the socio-phenomenological stakes involved in fantasy are more radical than those involved in science fiction. In Adornian terms, science fiction, it could be said, is primarily engaged in the extension of identity thinking, whereas fantasy, through its wilful denial of cognition, points to the ‘messianic moment,’ the necessity of finding some way out of our functional nightmare.