A Nerdy Question on LOTR [Archive]

Shaka_Khan

01-02-2006, 03:27

I'm curious to what Middle Earth would be like after the reign of King Elessar. I heard that JRR Tolkien started on a sequel but changed his mind and didn't finish it. The story would've been a time when there were very few elves in Middle Earth, and the Hobbits were hard to find. Middle Earth still had orcs around but not as many and as threatening as before. What would the sequel be like?
I think one of the important elements to the sequel would be how King Elessar's son's character would be. I know that King Elessar's reign was a time of good life for Middle Earth. King Elessar and Queen Arwen were compassionate people, so I think they would've given their kids a lot of love. They seemed to be wise, so I think they would've educated their kids well. Would their kids become spoiled or kind?

Alexanderofmacedon

01-02-2006, 03:29

Uh...you know your LOTR don't you?...

Unfortunetly I can't say the same about myself. I'll put J.R.R's books on my "To read" list and I'll get back to you!:2thumbsup:

Brutus

01-02-2006, 23:21

Dutch_guy

01-02-2006, 23:40

I dont think that Middle-Earth would know War for a very long time to come,not taking in to consideration the aftermath of the War of the Ring.

I also do not think that with Aragorn and Arwen as his parents the child would grow to be spoiled.

My opinion on the matter.

:balloon2:

Gregoshi

01-03-2006, 05:40

I know there is some stuff Tolkien wrote to connect Middle Earth with England and the world we know. I haven't read any yet, just some skimming in the book stores and a section of The Book of Lost Tales 2, which I haven't finished reading yet. It talks of a man named Eriol or AElfwine (the "A" and the "E" are joined together but I don't know how to make that character) who sailed from England to Tol Eressea - the elven island just off the coast of Valinor. However, with the incomplete writings that Tolkien had done on this, men are rarely mentioned. Of the fate of the Men and the Fourth Age, I don't recall seeing, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

...and apparently there is some stuff. I just did a Google search and found this article on the Fourth Age, written by the folks that do the MERP game (Middle Earth Role Playing): Martinez Article (http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/michaelmartinezsuite101essay17[/URL) From what I gather, Tolkien did write a few pages on a LOTR sequel called The New Shadow but abandoned it as uninteresting to him. There must be enough in the story beginnings and in letters to give some hints at the future of Men in the Fourth Age.

lars573

01-05-2006, 04:44

I thought that Middle Earth was more or less meant to be an ancient, mythical precursor of our own recorded history (with the West as Europe, Harad ('South') as Africa and Rhun ('East') as Asia), so I would imagine Middle Earth would be more and more about conflicts between men, as there are hardly any other races about: no more Elves, less and less Orcs, Ents dying out and Hobbits and Dwarves not showing themselves very much (and probably dying off as well). The Lord of the Rings already mentions Elessar and Eomer campaining in Rhun against the Easterlings, I suppose this would have continued under Eldarion and beyond?
Actually Aragorn made quite a bit or war during his first years on the throne of Gondor. He was re-establishing the Gondor of the early third age after all. His campagin to restore Arnor wouldn't have been short or bloodless. He would have after all had to crush any tribe in former Arnor that didn't bend knee and swear alligance to him. Also he did campagin against the Haradrim and re-took Umbria for Gondor IIRC.

Sjakihata

01-05-2006, 13:13

AElfwine (the "A" and the "E" are joined together but I don't know how to make that character)

Ælfwine

ps. basic danish character

Weebeast

01-05-2006, 13:20

They seemed to be wise, so I think they would've educated their kids well. Would their kids become spoiled or kind?
Well, I'm guessing the children would be a great fighter and/or leader. I wonder if Arwen still had her regular power after she officially became mortal. The kids should at least inherit her talent.

It says that the gap between our time and end of Third Age is 6000 years.

Sjakihata

01-05-2006, 13:32

I think their children would be two, a girl and a boy. The girl wants to be like her father and the boy like his mother, a fighter girl and a sorcerer boy :idea2:

Papewaio

01-06-2006, 05:05

Slight OT:

Is there such a thing as a non-nerdy question on LOTR?

lars573

01-06-2006, 17:03

I think their children would be two, a girl and a boy. The girl wants to be like her father and the boy like his mother, a fighter girl and a sorcerer boy :idea2:
Hey, hey only angels can be Wizards in LOTR. :furious3:

Slight OT:

Is there such a thing as a non-nerdy question on LOTR?
Probably not. Beyond is it good or not?

Monarch

01-06-2006, 22:14

Well I tried reading the books after watching TFOTR film, but I just couldnt get into it. Kinda more difficult than a pleasure to read. So I put it down and just watched the other two films. This was when I was a few years ago now, when I was like 12 so I do have an excuse for putting them down. If I had the time I would probably enjoy reading them now. The mythology behind it I find is very interesting, I've read the wikipedia articles on the mytho and stories that are included and mentioned, very interesting.

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-07-2006, 01:52

READ THE HOBBIT!

*Beats everyone who has tried to read LOTR before the Hobbit with all of the movie extended DVD editions*

Um. Sorry about the beating. But if you haven't already, try the The Hobbit, also by JRR Tolkien.

Monk

01-07-2006, 04:02

i know i'm going to pay for this... but here comes a nerd on LOTR! :dizzy2:

Aragorn and Areyn would have one son, the heir, and a number of unnamed daughters who's number i've forgotten. The aftermath of the wotr saw a founding of a new dwarf kingdom in the back of helm's deep, Gondor raising new armies and launching campaigns to reclaim lost land. A group of dwarves restoring the walls of Minas Tirith. The Lorien elves leaving their city abandonded (the place of Arwen's death later) to travel to Valinor making The elves of mirkwood the last elves in middle earth. and yes, they stayed in middle earth afaik.

Gandalf leaving middle earth, the last 3 wizards (yep, three..) would stay out of affairs of men for the large part. Except for the two blue wizards but i cant find anything on them now,[theory] i think they founded cults far in the east.

The ents would become "treeish" without the entwives, and by the way.[theory] The ent wives are somewhere near the shire. Look for a passage in the first chapter of fotr where sam says something about a living and walking tree being spotted. Though there was only one witness to it so no one believed it.

The shire grew to incorparate buckland and westmarch. and was protected within the borders of the new united kingdom

Um. Sorry about the beating. But if you haven't already, try the The Hobbit, also by JRR Tolkien.

is it just me or was hobbit a more interesting book than lotr? i found it not as spread out and easier to read.

Gregoshi

01-07-2006, 04:34

Monk, except for the part about the Entwives (which I didn't know), my knowledge of events matches yours. I'll add that special notice should be given to Gimli, who was granted special permission to sail to Valinor with Legolas. He was the only dwarf ever given such an honour.

As for comparing The Hobbit with LotR, they are different in a few ways. The Hobbit is written as if being told around the campfire by a storyteller and has many light, humourous parts. On the other hand, LotR is written more like a traditional novel and has a very serious tone to it.

lars573

01-07-2006, 05:17

i know i'm going to pay for this... but here comes a nerd on LOTR! :dizzy2:

Aragorn and Areyn would have one son, the heir, and a number of unnamed daughters who's number i've forgotten. The aftermath of the wotr saw a founding of a new dwarf kingdom in the back of helm's deep, Gondor raising new armies and launching campaigns to reclaim lost land. A group of dwarves restoring the walls of Minas Tirith. The Lorien elves leaving their city abandonded (the place of Arwen's death later) to travel to Valinor making The elves of mirkwood the last elves in middle earth. and yes, they stayed in middle earth afaik.

Gandalf leaving middle earth, the last 3 wizards (yep, three..) would stay out of affairs of men for the large part. Except for the two blue wizards but i cant find anything on them now,[theory] i think they founded cults far in the east.

The ents would become "treeish" without the entwives, and by the way.[theory] The ent wives are somewhere near the shire. Look for a passage in the first chapter of fotr where sam says something about a living and walking tree being spotted. Though there was only one witness to it so no one believed it.

The shire grew to incorparate buckland and westmarch. and was protected within the borders of the new united kingdom.
I'll add that in TTT when Merry and Pippin tell Treebeard where the shire is he states that is where he thinks the Entwifes buggered off too. And if they'd ever seen them. M/P tell Treebeard that they've heard stories about living trees but though they were just fairy stories to enthrall the little ones. [theory] the woods that Tom Bombadil lives in is actually the Entwifes and they've just all become "treeish" and are asleep.

Meneldil

01-07-2006, 19:38

Gandalf leaving middle earth, the last 3 wizards (yep, three..) would stay out of affairs of men for the large part. Except for the two blue wizards but i cant find anything on them now,[theory] i think they founded cults far in the east.

The 2 unrecorded Wizards apparently left for the pleasures of the East. The first one is Palanto the Blue (according to the LotR cards game), but I don't remember the name of the other one (though I think he was the Purple or something among those lines).

It sounds kinda nerdy aswell, but I wish some good writer would write other LotR/Middle Earth related stuffs. There are so much things I'd like to know more, so many tales and stories that aren't really explained in the existing book. But then of course, most fans would turn mad and claim it's a bunch of ***p, doesn't have the original Tolkien feeling and so on.

lars573

01-07-2006, 23:00

The only wizard names I know are Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Rhadagast the brown.

Dutch_guy

01-07-2006, 23:07

What ever became of Radagast the Brown...?

There is no mention of him getting killed - as a matter of fact there isn't much information on him in the LOTR books.

:balloon2:

drone

01-07-2006, 23:20

After Saruman tricked Rhadagast into sending Gandalf to Saruman's trap at Isengard, I don't remember him being mentioned anymore.

Slight OT:

Is there such a thing as a non-nerdy question on LOTR?
How about this one: Does Peter Jackson have a swimming pool filled with cash, or does he just light cigars with $100 bills?

Dutch_guy

01-07-2006, 23:38

lars573

01-08-2006, 00:27

How about this one: Does Peter Jackson have a swimming pool filled with cash, or does he just light cigars with $100 bills?
I'm betting on the pool filled with cash. That's what I'd have.

Monk

01-08-2006, 10:34

well Rhadagast was still alive after he sent Gandalf to Isengard, he was the one who gave the eagles the infromation they needed to eventually help Gandalf off the tower of Isengard.
After that I don't know what happened to him...

:balloon2:

[theory on my part]
Rhadagast was said to have loved the beasts of middle-earth far more than elves, men, or dwarves. So it's likely that he would have strived to protect them and guide them much like Gandalf attempted to do in his time with the peoples of middle-earth. After a few parts in lotr he isn't mentioned at all.. iirc.

i remember he once dwelled at Rhosgobel on the very edge of Mirkwood. He was there at the time of The Hobbitfor Gandalf says 'my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood', yet when the council of Eldrond happened in LOTR, gandalf says he "at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel".

so its really anyone's guess as to where he went, and what he ended up doing.

Had to actually look that up and double check it with http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ to make sure and get the lines exactly right.

How about this one: Does Peter Jackson have a swimming pool filled with cash, or does he just light cigars with $100 bills?

i'd like the swimming pool.. just beware of paper cuts..

Mouzafphaerre

01-08-2006, 14:04

.
After Elassar and Arwen Undómiel :smitten: it would become just another kingdom of men. The overall lifelength of the Dúnedain would continue to fall as they get more and more mixed up with the lesser Men.

The Dwarves probably got extinct in time. Already before the WotR they had but 1/3rd female population and were not too much into marrying.

The elves of the Mirkwood probably left the Middle-earth gradually as well. Some inconsistency may be observed in Tolkien's dealing with their destiny but if we take his word in the appendix to LotR, then there should not have remained any elves. Another possibility is that they might have become Men --willingly or else. They might have been given the Gift of Men afterwards but I don't have anything to back this up.

The ents most probably became trees. Entwiwes, why, already migrated to Americas. What do you think the Pequoyas are?

The Hobbits must still be lurking somewhere over there.

Radagast remains as a question. So does Tom Bombadil, who stands somewhat out of the world for his entire appearance, together with his household and dominion.

:book2:
.

Dutch_guy

01-08-2006, 18:42

I think that Bombadil will simply stay where he is...deep in the forrest, untill the end of the world.

Just a theory though, haven't got the proof to back that up.

Also , is he immortal ? I do think he is, don't remember that being discussed in the books ( hobbit and LOTR ), does anyone know ?

:balloon2:

aw89

01-08-2006, 19:34

If I remember correctly (Big if) there was something about him being there since the ents were young (Or something explaining he was really old) and was going to live until men disappeared too. (Or somesuch)

Mouzafphaerre

01-08-2006, 20:01

.
I overread some talk about Fangorn (Treebeard) being inspired by C.S. Lewis; it seems like this Bombadil might be someone close to Tolkien, or inspired by him. ~;)
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The Stranger

01-08-2006, 20:12

who knows Earthsea...i saw the movie...all those stories seem to have su,thing in common and it looks very much like Harry potter has huge amounts of things that are virtually the same with Earthsea, LotR and CoNarnia

Mouzafphaerre

01-09-2006, 08:35

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So they made Narnia too into a movie finally huh? I saw the ads on the TV. Though, my only experience with it was a kiddy dramatization on the BBC.
.

Togakure

01-09-2006, 23:55

The two Istari known as the "blue wizards" were named Alatar and Pallando. They purportedly went into the East and came not again into the tales of men.

Most of the the information regarding the fourth age is found in the Appendices of the Return of the King.

Kongamato

01-10-2006, 00:52

I wonder if anyone could answer a question I have. I've only seen the movies, so this may not even be a legitimate question. When Isildur took Sauron's fingers off, Sauron apparently went nuclear and took out everyone in a quarter-mile radius. How did Isildur survive that?

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-10-2006, 01:13

The "blast" in the movie presumably only knocked people off their feet.

Mouzafphaerre

01-10-2006, 02:13

Brutus

01-10-2006, 23:49

.
Well, the only god of the movies was making me think "WTF?! Why on earth people become fanatics over such nonsense and even take nicknames and all?" Then I decided to make some research :book2: :computer: and realized that there might actually be some potential in this Tolkien fellow (being chaps with C.S. Lewis etc.). :yes: Out of curiousity I got the books and

:smitten::smitten::smitten::smitten: (one for The Hobbit and each of the LotR volumes)

Then I realized how huge a homicide those nonsense films were. :no:
.
You didn't like them? I thought they were quite good (started reading the books because I saw FOTR back in 2001) and, although they are not up to the standards of the books (which film from a good book ever is?) I thought they were pretty nice in their own right as well as being a nice illustration to the books themselves (much in the way the Harry Potter films are).

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-11-2006, 00:32

The Hobbit rocks! LOTR is very good; just a hair less something.

The movies were fun. :inquisitive:

EDIT: Though not as good, true.

Togakure

01-11-2006, 02:13

I've been a fanatical fan of the books for about 35 years, and though there are some grand liberties taken in the films, I thought they were, overall, a magnificent accomplishment. My personal imagery from many readings prior to seeing the movies is solid and will never be supplanted by Jackson's. Nevertheless, I think the films represent one of the definitive cinematic accomplishments of my lifetime, and sport some very fine acting, sets, costumes, and special effects as well. Personally, I'm very grateful to Peter Jackson and the entire crew for what they've offered up.

Mouzafphaerre

01-11-2006, 09:33

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The first film, at least, was a good time killer but never, and I say never, up to the foot of the books. I can list what grand liberties make them third rate holywood action movies but I'm in a lazy late morning mood right now. ~:handball: For the least, many of the chief characters and personalities (Frodo the crybaby, Aragorn aka Conan the barbarian, the Wizards out of a Gargamel mood dueling with the staves and all...) have been perverted and bastardized. While definitely enough darama exists in the works, more have been invented in the silliest holywood fashion such as the Aragorn - Elrond - Arwen balony...

Apart from the content, the books are true artworks. The movies aren't, which many holywood productions, no matter how much of a box office success they achieved, are. I'll take (for an extreme comparison) Terminator 2 over any of them. (To be fair I've never seen The Two Towers completely but still I saw enough of it and the rest two.)

Also, I'm not (yet) a fanatic of the books. Nothing wrong with being one but I'm not. But I admit that I love them and I'm reading The Hobbit for the second time in hardly longer than a month. As I said earlier, the movies were at least useful for me inciting a curiousity for the real stuff, but in a different way. :yes:
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Mouzafphaerre

01-22-2006, 05:02

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I've read an interesting article: Who is Tom Bombadil? (http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/tombomb.html)

A well laid out and semantically convincing writing, it seems, indifferent than almost anything about the topic, to overlook a small yet significant detail, which I have pointed out in an email to the author:

Before the final journey of the Hobbits under Bombadil's escort, when he lays the treasure salvaged from the barrow-wight's hoard and presents the them their "swords", which is yet another display of his unposessing nature hence a point supporting the analogy with Aulë, he takes a single broch for himself: "Here is a pretty toy for Tom and his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!" (I: 1/VIII, p.157, Houghton-Mifflin edition)

As I understand it, this clearly states a former lady of Bombadil's, who "was", "wore" the broch. Goldberry is apparently a later lady, found by Tom in the pool of the Withywindle, thus not with him from the beginning. It can be perceived that the former lady had been a victim of the barrow-wight, though not for certain. However, it's pretty clear that there was one, and is no more, whom "they", ie Bombadil and Goldberry, will not forget, Goldberry wearing her broch. I'll leave this overlooked yet significant detail without any conclusion.

Thoughts? :book2:
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Sardo

01-22-2006, 21:56

I've always taken this fair 'she' to be a noble lady of the Dunedain of Arnor, since the barrow-mounds were graves of that people before the wights were sent there by the Lord of the Nazgul. The treasures therein belonged also to them (like the swords Bombadil gave to the hobbits: Pippin's is later recognised by Denethor to be the work of his kinsmen of the north, long before in the wars with Angmar).

Bombadil being 'Eldest', it should come as no surprise that he had known this lady to a greater or lesser degree.

You also mention an 'analogy with Aulë'. Without having read the article (not enough time - exams), I think it is safe to assume that Bombadil was not meant to be one of the Valar, or analogous to them. Nor could any other explanation of his nature be found, because I seem to recall that Tolkien explicitly stated somewhere that Bombadil was meant to be an enigma.

Mouzafphaerre

01-23-2006, 14:15

.
Do read the article when you have time. ~;) Hargrove nearly proves his Aulë & Yavanna theory without damaging the enigma. Actually, I couldn't give up the LotR reread after getting the Silmarillion and decided to carry them on together. It's no hard since they have different styles and content anyway. So, while I was reading the Bombadil adventure it flashed in my mind:

GAH! :gah2: These chaps are Valar! Let me find them in the Silmarillion. :book2:

I didn't look them up though and went on a web search. Reading almost everything about Bombadil, I came up with this article. :computer:

He replied to the email in detail and even kindly attached another one of his articles. ~:) In summary, he doesn't think the former lady was a wife of Bombadil's and that Goldberry also knew her.
.

Sardo

01-23-2006, 17:33

Well... I've read it now, and admittedly the author makes a good case for his theory... but I'm still not entirely convinced. Some things he writes really seems like grasping at straws to me; for instance, Goldberry's green garment indicating that she is Yavanna because Yavanna also wears green, or his dismissal of the whole 'daughter of the River' thing because of the other things 'unrevealed or unexplained', such as Gandalf and the Eagles not being revealed as Maiar, the 'origin of the orcs' thing and even the rumour of Rohan's selling horses to Mordor.
Also, he rules out the possibility of Tom being a Maia because 'there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character'. Seeing as how there were supposedly hundreds of Maiar, I think the author is a bit over-eager to skip right ahead to the Valar.

On the other hand, maybe I'm simply sticking my head in the sand because the idea of two Valar taking up a life as Tom merry dol Bombadil and his spouse is just not what I want my Valar to do. I liked the simple 'enigma' solution better.

One last note: if Aulë and Yavanna became Tom and Goldberry, they must've done so immediately after the War of Wrath, as I think Elrond tells the Council that Tom was already around when he was young. I think that this would kind of rule out Aulë's supposed interest in hobbits being the reason for assuming the Bombadil persona, as hobbits aren't even mentioned until a good way into the Third Age, and Tom did apparently show himself to the Elves in this form (or at least that's what I make of Elrond's remark, without having the book to hand).

You know, I came from a Tolkien messageboard (which I haven't visited in a long long time now), where I never took part in the book discussions, and now, on a Total War forum, I'm finding myself discussing the nature of Tom Bombadil, one of the things, along with Balrog wings and the origin of orcs, that one should avoid discussing. Kind of ironic, if you ask me.

Mouzafphaerre

01-23-2006, 18:10

.
:laugh4:

Honestly, I won't challange the Aulë/Yavanna theory, nor will I subscribe to it without questioning, but for some reason I can't make out "reasonably" I feel that Tom and Goldberry must be of the Valar/Valier.

Hargrove is generally well aware of a fact and stresses it in his both articles, though he himself apparently contradicts with it at times: Tolkien doesn't tell everything from a factual third person view; most of the time he merely translates what the Hobbits, Gondorians, Elves etc. told. In that sense Silmarillion is merely Elven theology and mythology, not necessarily what exactly happened. That's why, there's enough enigma around the Ainur of whatever order already and Bombadil's enigma is apt to fit well. :yes:

His relation -or lack thereof- with the ring and behaviour against it seems reasonable enough if he is indeed Aulë. It's his apprentice's toy and however big wouldn't surpass his, the master's power. OTOH, the Maiar Gandalf and Saruman, being of a lesser order (in Elven terms) and posessing equal or less power than their "kin", are prone to its effects etc.
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gardibolt

01-27-2006, 00:31

A little late, I suppose, but the Original Poster can read what Tolkien wrote (admittedly little) of the sequel, The New Shadow, in one of the History of Middle Earth volumes edited by Christopher Tolkien. It's in volume XII, The Peoples of Middle Earth. Most of the book is devoted to the writing of the appendices to LOTR, but it has some fascinating stuff about the Fourth Age.

Mouzafphaerre

01-27-2006, 02:11

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I'm reading through Silmarillion (along with the LotR the second time ~D) and about to order Unfinished Tales! :jumping: This guy is just addictive. :book2:

There's a website with a huge loads of FAQs here (http://tolkien.slimy.com/). Badly designed its is, I have to say, and you may need to wander in the directories to discover most of the content. Seems some nerds out there don't have any life but Tolkiening! :laugh4:
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