Alternative factions

[Geoffrey S]

Considering the state of affairs with regards to the Yuezhi who would you like to see replacing them should they abandoned in later release? Any particular regions which you think could use an additional faction? Do share your thoughts!

Personally, I'd like to see a counter to the Ptolemaioi or Arche Seleukeia in the Arabian peninsular in the form of a faction such as the Nabataeans, or perhaps another Germanic faction

[Conqueror]

Nabataeans would be good for they could be set as the "creator" faction for provinces on the Arabian peninsula. They would also slow down other AI factions expansion in that area.

[QwertyMIDX]

The Sabeans are much more likely than the Nabataeans as the Nabataeans hadn't even become sedentary until the very end of the mod's time frame.

[GoreBag]

I'd like to some more action in Africa. Nubia would be a good choice, even if their political influence in the period wasn't huge.

[Big_John]

if the yuezhi are removed, i'd also like to see saba or kush replace them. not sure if there is enough space on the map to represent kush properly, though.

[moeman]

yep yep yep saudi arabia the peninsuala is too big to be empty and imagine how much more fun it would be to be the bactrians or ptolamies to have more options then turkey and the meditaranian, its just europe is crowded youve got macedon, greece and epyrose all in the one peninsuala which is very fun but if you play the mid eaastern ones its just plane
well thats my 2 cents

[Byzantine Mercenary]

ive always thought that a middle east faction is needed, to counter the ptolmaics

[menander]

A Galatian faction, maybe? There are two Gallic factions already, though...

[Geoffrey S]

The reason I like the idea of an Arabic faction is that it seems either the Seleucids or the Ptolemaioi dominate in the region, which is neither entirely realistic nor that good for the gameplay. On the other hand, a new Germanic faction would fill out the rather empty northern end of the map quite nicely, though the loose tribes up that way may be better represented by rebel provinces.

The Sabeans are much more likely than the Nabataeans as the Nabataeans hadn't even become sedentary until the very end of the mod's time frame.
Sounds good. Is there anywhere you'd recommend to find more (accurate) information on the Sabeans, because I know next to nothing about them.

Would I be correct in assuming that there's very little (primary) information on the Sabeans? I wouldn't have thought they left much behind in the form of written records, though I'd have thought that about the Yuehzi too.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

An African faction would be great with that huge expanse there.

[QwertyMIDX]

Over 10,000 Southern Arabian inscriptions have been found, the large plurality of which are Sabean. They are also mentioned briefly in Pliny, who was part of a Roman expedition sent ton conquer southern arabia (didn't manage it, but more because their guide, a Nabataean, betrayed them). Ptolemy also talks about the peoples and cities of Southern Arabia.

[Justiciar]

The Cimbri perhaps? Kush? Or maybe the Mauryan Empire?

[Geoffrey S]

Over 10,000 Southern Arabian inscriptions have been found, the large plurality of which are Sabean. They are also mentioned briefly in Pliny, who was part of a Roman expedition sent ton conquer southern arabia (didn't manage it, but more because their guide, a Nabataean, betrayed them). Ptolemy also talks about the peoples and cities of Southern Arabia.
Sounds good. Are there any books/articles on the subject you'd recommend?

Or maybe the Mauryan Empire?
It's one I'd love to play as, but I can't realistically see enough room on the campaignmap to represent their true size and power, or enough unit slots to accurately portray them.

[Greek_fire19]

The only problem with the sabeans is that (i'v only read a few articles on them but this seems to be the general consensus) they were an important trading power on the route from the west to the east, and they had a virtual monopoly on the frankinsense trade, which was used as an incense in temples across the western world, so they were a small put wealthy power, however, they didn't have a particularly large population and would rely mostly on mercenaries. They wouldnt have a particularly diverse or interesting military.

I might be wrong though, I havent seen any studies of them which dwell on their military prowess, except that they were occupied throughout this period with fighting between themselves and one of their neighbour states, whose name I forget

[QwertyMIDX]

They were actually a rather expansionistic power, they conquered all of Southern Arabia at one point and ruled over large parts of Ethiopia as well. Their Military would likely be made up of rather well armed nobels from the cities, some what less well armed citizen soilders (also from the cities), large numbers of Arabia tribesmen who were supplied by the nomadic Arabian tribes that owed alliegence to the Sabeans and perhaps some Ethiopians. Other than the Arabic tribesmen none of the forces they field could even been broadly called mercs, and they aren't really mercs except in the sense that the Sabeans (or some other urban power) would usally give certain tribes gifts in exchange for their allegience.

The 3 other Southern Arabian states at the time were Qataban, Ma'in and Hadramaut with Himyar emerging later.

The Sabeans were indeed generally occupied with trying to restablish dominance over the other southern Arabian kingdoms during this period, and it should be very hard for them to do so, but they had managed to conquer the entire area in the past, and were things to have gone a little differently they could have managed it again.

[Dayve]

Are there enough cities in southern Africa to put in a new faction? It wouldn't be wise because the distance between each city is HUGE... Then again armies in EB can move much further than in any other mod so maybe it is a possibility...

A faction on the Arabian peninsula would be awesome... I've no knowledge at all of any people from this area but i'd definately play a faction there...

[MeroFromVero]

The only problem with the sabeans is that (i'v only read a few articles on them but this seems to be the general consensus) they were an important trading power on the route from the west to the east, and they had a virtual monopoly on the frankinsense trade, which was used as an incense in temples across the western world...

Why would that be a problem? One of the big reasons the Casse got factionized was their control of the tin trade, right?

[QwertyMIDX]

Turn your FOW off and look at the area around Marib, there are 3 cities within easy attacking distance of it.

[DocHolliday2006]

As I said in my other post, Syracuse.

[Stormy]

Sabeans!! :2thumbsup:

The Nabataeans and the Kush is nice choice also.

[The_Mark]

Lugians. If eadingas can gather enough information about them.

[Warlord 11]

An Arabian faction would be my choice

[wolftrapper78]

I will have to go with Sabeans.
They are the best choice as far as I am concerned.
Didn't they beat back a small Roman invasion or raiding party (if the Romans ever did that)?
And their expansion gives them as much reason for being 'factionized' as the Casse.
And one other question, what would have to happen to get this implemented in the greatest mod of all time, EB?

[QwertyMIDX]

They sort of repelled a roman invasion yes, it was the one Strabo was a part of, I think I mentioned it (I think I actually said Pliny was on that expedition, don't know where that came from, must have been tired, it was Strabo). Their ability to defeat them had more to do with the harsh climate, the high walls of Marib and the betrayal of the romans by their guide than the combat prowess of the Sabeans though.

[saulot333]

Sabaeans sounds like a good choice to me

[Justiciar]

No one else in favour of the Cimbri? Some company for those poor Sweboz fellas?

[GeneticFlea]

I kind of would like to play the sabaeans as well... there already seems to be a plethora of barbarian groups (two gaul, swboz, casse, dacia somewhat) And i think an arab faction would be suite..plus i like the quick speed and fighting style of the desert cultures like numidea and arab forces.

[QwertyMIDX]

You'd probably be disappointed by the rather stolid urbanites that the Sabeans are then.

[Krusader]

Sakae for me.

[GeneticFlea]

lol shows my knowledge of the ancient world eh? i just assumed if they were precursors to the arab world, theyd be like that...did they use warriors from the bedouin and other nomadic groups though? like as mercs or tribute for living on "sabean" teritory?

[Dayve]

Yeah what kind of units would we be looking at for the Sabeans? Phalanx troops? Weak infantry strong cavalry or vice versa?

[QwertyMIDX]

Their Military would likely be made up of rather well armed nobels from the cities, some what less well armed citizen soilders (also from the cities), large numbers of Arabia tribesmen who were supplied by the nomadic Arabian tribes that owed alliegence to the Sabeans and perhaps some Ethiopians.

Mostly infantry both Urbanized Southern Arabia and Arabic tribal from the north, with some arabic tribal cav (light, also from the north) and probably a small amount of more heavily armored nobel cav from the city. The problem here was that in arabia most soliders play many roles. RTW doesn't handle that so well.

[VandalCarthage]

did they use warriors from the bedouin and other nomadic groups though? like as mercs or tribute for living on "sabean" teritory?

They did actually employ a good many Bedouin tribes in particular.

Fortunately for us, an enormous percentage of Sabaean inscriptions deal with their military, which describe in specific detail tribal levies, levies of conquored subjects, citizen soldiers, citizen soldiers in Africa, elite royal soldiers, Bedouin cavalry, Bedouin mercenaries, general Arab mercenaries, and a variety of cavalry. Though books on the subject aren't well circulated, the Sabaean dialect is one of the best reconstructed dead languages of the South Semitic family.

[tk-421]

I think that it ought to be Numidia. Carthage always conquers all of North Africa really quickly. A Numidian faction might slow that down some. Sabaeans would be cool too.

[jebes]

I think the Sabeans would also slow down Carthage by forcing Ptolemi to concentrate more on thier western borders to expand

[Hildico]

The choice of which alternative faction to add seems to me to depend on which factions people play- personally, I want more action and more detail in the part of the map I'm playing. I mostly play as the Romans or Greeks so I would probably be looking at Syracuse or a Balkan faction. If I was playing as the Sweboz, I might want to have a rival for control of a unified Germanic nation. To me, as long as any added faction can be supported from an historical point of view, it's a gameplay question not absolutely an historical accuracy question (I'll probably get tarred and feathered for suggesting that on this forum). So is the question to ask: What factions do most people choose for their campaigns? There may be a case for leaving out a more "historically significant" faction in place of a less important faction that would have a greater effect on a player. At the end of the day, this is still a game and should be played for enjoyment.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sabeans would prevent the crumbling seleucid empire from always ending becoming a small kingdom in the Arabian peninsula instead of being destroyed. But this would probably overpower Baktria. Maybe if seleucid eastern territories and Pahlava were powered up the removal of Yuezhi would be compensated without making Baktria too powerful... In any case Sabeans would IMO be a very interesting campaign and good for balance.

[Spendios]

The best thing about Sabeans is that they will surely have camels units, I miss these funny beasts in EB now...

[VandalCarthage]

They'll probably have one; but like the Baktrians, their camels were largely geared towards transport, and traded for horses in combat.

[Sahran]

I think that it ought to be Numidia. Carthage always conquers all of North Africa really quickly. A Numidian faction might slow that down some. Sabaeans would be cool too.

Yeah, but the ptolemies do too. It would be a good arguement for either Numidia or one of the southern Nile kingdoms.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Best cavalry ever!

Rohirrim. :yes:
.

[jebes]

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Best cavalry ever!

Rohirrim. :yes:
.


Phew. I was honestly hesitant to click that button. I have seen enough Gaesatae "units" in the past week to be afraid to go anywhere on this forum.

[Malrubius]

I, too, was hesitant. I'm at work! :sweatdrop:

But it's ok, everybody! :laugh4:

My vote is for the Lugii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii)!

[Spendios]

Lugii seem to be very mysterious, what was their political organisation, or the military units they could field ?

[Meothar]

My vote is for an Arabian faction. In my campaigns as Bactria, the Yuezi were nothing to worry about, in fact their territorries were less defended than those rebellous areas in India. Sabeans would fill the emptyness of Arabia and would be a cool faction to play.

[Dooz]

An Arabian or Indian faction would be cool, although I really have no objections towards the Yuezhi either.

[jebes]

I think that an Indian faction would really stand out from the others because Buddhism is a very different world view than the western religions and I think that the Caste system would make for some interesting government and troop options.

In relation to the Yuehzi, I think the Eastern border of the map would also be less of an unrealistic boundary because the Indian factions did not suffer very much pressure from the Eastern front and we would not be ignoring the influence of other the Eastern factions like we must with the Yuezhi.

[Kralizec]

Pergamon, make it an emergent faction so that if the Seleucids fail to keep it under control it will emerge as an independent faction. IIRC they were quite influential. If people want to play them the EB can provide a save game (if that's possible) or someone can make a small mod that starts a little later but with Pergamon as a playable faction.
Alternatively, a second Iberian faction.

That's my :2cents:

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Any more Hellenistic factions and I'll blow up the world! :rifle:
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[Dooz]

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Any more Hellenistic factions and I'll blow up the world! :rifle:
.

I'll set the charges...

[Reenk Roink]

I suggest the team scrap EB, and start a fresh, with a mod setting of the time and place of the Diadochi kingdoms with all the Hellenistic kingdoms included (Lysachimos, Antigonos, Cassander)...

*nimbly dodges flames, rocks, and ban sticks*

[tk-421]

I suggest the team scrap EB, and start a fresh, with a mod setting of the time and place of the Diadochi kingdoms with all the Hellenistic kingdoms included (Lysachimos, Antigonos, Cassander)...

Actually, a mod about the Diadochi would be a lot of fun. Not worth scrapping EB for one though.

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

What about the Bosphoran kingdom?
Greek colonists mixed with the autochtonous nomad peoples of Crimaia(Chersonesos).Greco-Sarmatians(Μιξοβάρβαροι)
Good selection of infantry fighting in the greek type of warfare mixed with the nomad sarmatian cavalry.
~:idea:

[Reenk Roink]

Actually, a mod about the Diadochi would be a lot of fun. Not worth scrapping EB for one though.

It would...wonder why no one has started one yet...?

[Tanit]

I like the idea of the yuezhi but the Sabeans are VERY tempting.

The truth is, it would be better if EB could get them both in. I was counting the original factions versus the present ones and it seemed to me that RTW had one more faction than EB.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

It would...wonder why no one has started one yet...?It got started and got scrapped.

[Stormy]

Remember Ladies and Gentlemen, we have 2 faction slots. One of the slots being that of the soon to be replaced Yuezhi, and of course the other faction slot, #2, on the 1.5 - 1.6.

Sabeans are interesting, one of my opinions is that we could have a faction on the factionless belly, the very south of EB's map.

It's SabaMania, Ladies and Gentlemen !? ~D ~;)


What about the Bosphoran kingdom?
Greek colonists mixed with the autochtonous nomad peoples of Crimaia(Chersonesos).Greco-Sarmatians(Μιξοβάρβαροι)
Good selection of infantry fighting in the greek type of warfare mixed with the nomad sarmatian cavalry.
~:idea:


I was thinking about the Bosphorans, I will ask the team how they feel about that one. Bosphorans could improve the game-play for Armenians, Macedonia, Dacians, Sarmatians and the Pontus.

[Reenk Roink]

It got started and got scrapped.

Really? There was a Diadochi mod? And it stagnated?

Poop :furious3:, ah well, EB is still EB :2thumbsup:.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Really? There was a Diadochi mod? And it stagnated?Yeah. At TWC. I don't remember the name though. Meneldil (now EB member) worked on it. He could reply better than me...


Poop :furious3:, ah well, EB is still EB :2thumbsup:.Glad to hear... :smiley:

[MeroFromVero]

I was counting the original factions versus the present ones and it seemed to me that RTW had one more faction than EB.

I hear modding the Senate leads to bugs.

[QwertyMIDX]

It does, at least in any version before 1.5. Apparently in 1.5 you can do it bug free.

[Tanit]

I hear modding the Senate leads to bugs.

Very interesting.

It seems to me that there are a number of prominent historical factions that get mentioned by members and fans of EB every time this sort of debate comes up. To make it easy to see the 'most popular' list I have compiled the best one I could make on short notice and put it here for referance.

Mauritania
Numidia
Syracusa
Sabea
Nabatea
Kush/Nubia
Yuezhi
Illyria
Skythia
Pergamum
Palmyra
Bosphorans
Indian type faction
Germanic type faction
Gallic type faction

Now not all of these factions are logical choices or perfectly within the time frame of the game, but these are what people talk about. Perhaps we should have a vote on it.:juggle2:

[QwertyMIDX]

EB is sort of against letting fans vote for what they want rather than what seems most accurate. ~;)

[Reenk Roink]

Yes, EB is not a democracy...it is a dictatorship led by Lord Khelvan. Its unique hierarchy ensures that Lord Khelvan has all the power while his chosen elite of historians, modders, skinners, coders, modellers, coordinators, testers, etc... give Lord Khelvan good advice. Next we have the legions of "fans" who are essentially willing slaves because Lord Khelvan and his elite can awe us with the various "shinies" of their creation. Perhaps the only thing that the EB cult is subject to is a mystical power called "history."

[Justiciar]

Long Live Khelvan! Lord of 4 hours each day of my life for the last 10 or so days!

[Chester]

Many people want to see all types of different factions. Does anyone know what these factions would bring to the table?

Ultimately, since CA gave us a retared economic system, this game is about war. All that matters is the new faction has enough unique units to make it different, therefore exciting and playable.

I cry myself to sleep at night thinking how great this game could have been. Even if CA pilfered the Lords of the Realm economic system it would've been 100% better.

One thing I liked about Lords of the Realm was how you had to buy armour and weapons, and then you could suit up men. But the graphics sucked and the battle system was terrible.

Many people wanted a Mauryan Empire over at RTR. I asked these same people what the army looked like and they didn't know. I think they just liked the name "Mauryan".

[Ergion]

I like another germanic or british islands faction.

Could be a good idea put a earth bridge between galia and britain?

[Kralizec]

How about the Etruscans? Were they able to do anything significant other then annoying the Romans?

I suspect the answer is no, but I'm running out of ideas here ~D

[Malrubius]

I like another germanic or british-isle faction.

Could be a god idea put a earth bridge between galia and britain?

The English Channel has actually proved to be a pretty significant barrier to invasions throughout history. Making it a crossable strait, as if guys on rafts could cross easily, just isn't supported by history.

A Goidil faction could inhabit Ireland, and the Lugii and Cimbri are contenders in the area of Germany.

[Ergion]

The English Channel has actually proved to be a pretty significant barrier to invasions throughout history. Making it a crossable strait, as if guys on rafts could cross easily, just isn't supported by history.

Yes, you are right, although some was some great invasions (romans with Caesar and after with Claudio, anglo-sajones, normands...etc) but yes, a earth bridge would allow the invasions as something too much easy for armies.

I have other question:

In the games I have played and the screenshots of the campaign map people show us, I saw IA can´t cross the channel in any direction, so the Casse faction can´t interact military with others continental factions. Its can be historically accurate, but you made it in this way for obtain this situation or is something you would like change?

[Justiciar]

Anglo-Saxons (for the most part) came by the North Sea, as did their later Scandanavian counterparts. Those who came by the Channel either lost half of their fleets or had to waits weeks for the erratic winds to point in the right direction.

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

Very interesting.

To make it easy to see the 'most popular' list I have compiled the best one I could make on short notice and put it here for referance.

Mauritania
Numidia
Syracusa
Sabea
Nabatea
Kush/Nubia
Yuezhi
Illyria
Skythia
Pergamum
Palmyra
Bosphorans
Indian type faction
Germanic type faction
Gallic type faction



Illyria would be a great historical inacurracy,if it is included.These people were easily crushed by the Romans and what they did most of the times was pirate raids.They didn't have any serious political structure and they were divided into tribes and clans.The illyrian kingdom of Teuta was not a serious threat neither to the Macedons nor to the Romans.

The Dardani,who were a Thraco-Illyrian tribe,could raise an army of 40,000 men but they were of poor quality soldiers.They were raiding Macedonia when they could but they were seldom successful.Even a few years before the conquest of the Macedonian kingdom by the Romans the Dardani could still be easily crushed by the Macedonians.

The Thracians(I mean the southern,not the Getai),were strong under the Odryssian Empire in the 5th century and 4th but at the time of EB,they were divided into many tribes just like the Illyrians.They were mostly bandits.Weak nations due to the lack of political structures and law.

So,in my opinion,there should be no more Balkan factions
:no:
It is not accurate,as far as history is concerned.

[Geoffrey S]

Personally, I'm for the Sabeans and the Lugii, assuming the two additional factions thing pans out. Both are historically viable, and the Sabeans would hinder excessive Seleucid and Ptolemaioi expansion into the Arabian peninsula, and the Lugii would be an excellent new Germanic faction in a relatively empty area of the map.

[Tanit]

Speaking of hindering the Ptolmaioi, I have a historical question.

Weren't the Libyans still an independant faction?

And if so, were they of any significance in history?

I know they were still sending embassadors around in Alexander's time but I have no idea what their standing wasin this time period.

And about the Etruscans, though I believe Rome had not yet conquered Veii at the game start the Etruscans had waned so much in power that even if you could start as them you could basically have no impact on the game. Romani would squash you like a bug.

My vote would be for Sabeans for sure and possibly Mauritania for a second. Though they didn't make any significant gains, they remained an independant state for a long time until their one king handed over the empire to Rome at his death.

[QwertyMIDX]

Romans conquered Veii in 396.