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LeftEyeNine
01-03-2006, 03:36
Here is the translation of an article from a Turkish website where the author set up a hypothesis about the correlation between Mu and Antiochia. He also mentions about Ataturk's interest in Mu civilization and his efforts to find out more about them.

Note: It took around 3-4 hours for me to complete this translation. I'm quite sleepless, by the way ~:) So please forgive any mistakes, and if it gets too difficult to understand at some point, please quote it and let me explain. ~:)

Note 2: I omitted some parts distracting the focus of the subject too much..

Churchward's Story Of Mu

https://img307.imageshack.us/img307/7771/sekil12na.gif

Everything starts with the arrival of British researcher, Colonel James Churchwards in India and Tibet in 1880 on several duties. Churchward, who made incredible contributions to modern theories of evolution, sigillography and acrheology, met the head priest –Rishi- of a monastery located in Western Tibet during his researches about the roots of ancient religions. Churchward stayed with Rishi for two years after finding out the existence of Naacal tablets proven to be scribed 15.000 years ago, in order to decipher them. Could he know that he was at the threshold of a 50-years of research that would take place in North, Central and South America, Egypt, Australia, Middle Asia, Siberia and in almost all of the Southern Pacific islands -after learning the ancient and dead Naacal language from Rishi that was composed of various symbols and shapes and thus deciphering the tablets ?

Now, let’s rewind things a bit and try to think about why the head priest Rishi revealed those tablets that were hidden from sight for thousands of years to Churchward, what’s more teaching him the Naacal language that was the only way to decipher them. We ‘re not on very informatic grounds about that actually. However, when they were deciphered, it was revealing that these 15.000 year-old tablets were brought to India from the continent of Mu by the Naacal priests. They were called the Brotherhood of Naacal as well. Naacals were both scientists and priests and were governors of the land of Mu. They were using this symbolic language in order to teach about their monotheist religion –that was the first of all- to both the ones living in their lands and also to those in their colonies. However, the esoteric interpretions and meanings were only known by themselves and the emperors.

The Ottoman word for esoterism is “batınilik” – that is “içsel”, “içyüz” in Turkish. The reverse system of esoterism is called exoterism (SP?). The Ottoman word for it is “harici” – that is “dışsal” in Turkish. Esoteric information is of those that is not conveyed or explained to everyone, and that is only revealed to those who pass through specific ways of education and deserve the knowledge. In order to find out about such information, one starts with learning exoteric information and by time he gives effort into it, he deserves to learn about the esoteric information.

Esoteric info is not generally in written format and are taught to a student under a specific system by teachers and guides using symbols. This is called initiation. This concept, for example, is called “el vermek” (=giving a hand) in Shaman-Turkic traditions. What lies beneath the source of Mu, Atlantis, Uighurs, Mayans, Tibet, Hermes-Egyptian, Indian civilizations, Rama, Babylonian, Pitagor, “Saabilik”, Platon, “Yesevilik”, Neo-Platonism, Kabbala, “Ahilik” and Mevlana is the esoterism and the esoteric informations. When Churchward first deciphered the Naacal tablets, he revealed the existence of a gigantic continent located right over the Pacific Ocean between Asia and America. This continent may have been the home of the first members of the humankind approximately 200.000 years ago. The continent’s lands were so plain and wide, the climate was so warm and beautiful that the life rapidly spreaded all over. Years passed by ages, ages passed by thousands of years in a harmonic way. And before around 70.000 years from the modern day, Mu was a gigantic continent of a population over 60.000.000 with all its nature and technology. The first sparkles of colonization and motives of exploration of new lands come accross with these years. Consequently, two routes of immigration was yielded, one westwards and the other one eastwards.

Churchward was never impressed and was closer to the reality, during his 50 years of research, by anything other than the tablets archeolog William Niven’s discovery of tablets in Mexico around 1921-1923. Niven had discovered a great deal of ancient tablets in Mexico. All the deciphering job could be only done by Churchward, since they were coded through Naacal language. Eventually, all the information about the continent of Mu, the routes of migration and the collapse of it was ready to be expressed academically. James Churchward commemorates Niven’s name with respect and sincerity, because of Niven’s contributions to modern science and works that enlightened his path. It is quite likely that Churchward would not be able to push his researches further unless Niven had discovered the tablets.

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One of the westwards ways of the migration route off Mu caused the formation of the Uighur Empire. The empire was controlling a vast part of Asia and Europe and was the biggest colony of Mu. By time, Uighur Empire’s borders reached the Atlantic coasts over Europe. Chinese documents scribed around 1000 BC, tell that Uighurs were at the peak of their civilization before 17.000 years of time.


The other immigration route was the one eastwards, that follows the way over the souteastern Mexico to the continent of Atlantis. Atlantis –with Uighur- is the first secondary continent. The eastern routes of colonization reached Mediterranean Sea leaving Atlantis and Atlantic Ocean behind and thus branching seperately to Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Greece and finally into Anatolia. Mu continent was destroyed and collapsed into the deep waters by earthquakes and vulcanic eruptions approximately 12.000 years ago.

Mu and Antiochia

After examining the maps that Churchward compiled, Anatolia where is the birth place of many civilizations, acted as a blending point of the immigration routes from both Uighurs and Atlantis. And, actually, this reveals the truth that it is the interaciton of Mu, Uighur, Atlantis and Anatolian civilizations rather than those of Anatolians with Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians and Greeks. Another discovery that confirms this truth is the one of Prof. Ralph Solecki made in 1957. Solecki had found traces of modern humans with 9 skeletons that were 44.000 years old in the Cave of Şanidar and over the hilly lands that draws the curvy area starting from Toros Mt., to Ağrı Mt. And continuing from here to soutwest where Zagros Mt. are located (Iran-Iraq border) and finally towards Syria and Lebanon (Solecki calls this “The curve of civilization”). Solecki also expressed that a lot of caves longing from 13.000 to 100.000 years of age are to be discovered in this curve.Antiochia (Antakya, the modern city of Hatay that is), where was the host of numerous civilizations for ten-thousands of years, is generally –and rightfully- told of its history starting with Great Alexander ‘s acquaintance of the place after his victory of Issos battle versus Persian emperor Darius in 333 BC. This error is derived from the inability or the lack of publicization of the discoveries aging thousands of years made by the researchers, or limiting the framework or the environment of such studies/researches…

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The first researches about the ancient history of Antiochia, as a step of Amık Excavations Project, were held by Oriental Institute’s Syrian Expedition through 1932-1938 within the intenrational archeological framework such as Tell Tayinat, Tell Al-Judaidah, Chatal Höyük. The second research was held by Sir Leonard Charles Woolley in periods of 1937-1939 and 1946-1949 in Tell Atchana. Woolley’s and the other similar researches and expeditions cover the period around 1400-1800 BC. Woolley had made excavations and researches before these, in southern Egypt and northern Sudan around 1907-1911. Woolley, after this research, as the chief of the co-working research group of British Museum and University of Pensilvania, made expeditions in Ur (modern Iraq) as well. The aim of that expedition was the attempt to make discoveries of 2400-6000 years-time. Taking these two expeditions into consideration, was it a coincidence that Tell Atchana expedition had revealed discoveries of 3400-3800 years time ?

Let’s try to remember.

One of the most important settlements located on the migration routes starting From Mu and over Atlantis was Egypt. And one of the final arrival points was Antiochia.

As Solecki stated, if Ur was one of the Eastern hosts located in “The curve of civilizations”, isn’t it possible that one of the welcomers of “guests” was Antiochia ?

Now, let’s take it more up-to-date.

Remember the quote about Great Alexander, in 333 BC :,

“The land was so abundant, the water was so clear that this time, the Great Alexander looked back while leaving. The spring he drank water from was just as delicious as his mother’s milk..Said ‘May it have the name Olimpias, like my mother’s.’ and was gone.”

Who knows whether the people of Mu looked back with same emotions ? …

...

Atatürk’s Interest On The Subject

After the establishment of Türk Tarih Kurumu (Turkish Office of History, 1930) in 1932 through several researches, one day, ancient languages specialist, scientist and retired general Tahsin Mayatepek mentions about the similarities between Mayan language and Turkish language to Ataturk in one of their conversations (The Mayan word for “tepe” (=hill) was “tepek”. Footnote: People were obliged to choose surnames after the foundation of Turkey. No surnames before..). Mayatepek tells him that such similarities were counted to be over 100. Ataturk, after being impressed with the conversation, assigned Tahsin Mayatepek as the Turkish ambassador in Mexico, to give him the opportunity for a deeper research. Mayatepek, who had got to meet William Niven during his researches in Mexico, could not only have the opportunity to work on the tablets Niven discovered but also got to know the presence of Churchward’s finished piece of work after 50 years of research on Mu civilization. Following the regular and continuous acknowledgements about the improvements on the subject to Atatürk, a copy of Churchward’s book was brought to Turkey and was examined by a comission of 40-50 specialists and scientists. Ataturk had personally observed the studies about the Turkish language and symbols, the Naacal tablets of Niven, Mayan language and symbols and Churchward’s books, and held his own memos and records about it. These books that were kept by Turkish Office Of Language until 60’s, were taken to the Anıtkabir (Ataturk’s Mauseloum) Archive later on. Today, they are still kept with Ataturks original remarks and memos as well..

References
1. The Children Of Mu; James Churchward. (Ercan Arısoy, Ege Meta Yayınları)
2. The Last Continent Of Mu; James Churchward. (Rengin Ekiz, Ege Meta Yayınları)
3. The Sacred Symbols Of Mu; James Churchward. (Rengin Ekiz, Ege Meta Yayınları)
4. İnsanlığı Aydınlatan Büyük İnisiyeler Dinlerin Gizli Tarihi Rama - Krişna - Hermes - Musa - Orfe; Edouard Schure. (Yavuz Keskin, Ruh Madde Yayınları)
5. 12th Planet; Zecharia Sitchin. (Yasemin Tokatlı, Ruh Madde Yayınları)
6. Atatürk’ün Hayat Felsefesi; Mesud Fani.
7. İlk Çağ ve Orta Çağ Felsefe Tarihi; Ernst von Aster. (Uyarlayan Vural Okur, İm Yayınları)
8. Amuq Valley Projects; Chicago Universitesi.
9. “Doğunun Kraliçesi Antakya” belgeseli; Medya B.


Source : http://www.antakyarehberi.com/mu/index.htm

If you take time to read it -or not, does not matter- what are your opinions about Mu civilization ? Do you believe in existance of such legendary civilizations above all ? Why and why not ?

:bow:

Rosacrux redux
01-03-2006, 12:36
Etruscans, Sumerians, Uighur... and now... Lemurians! I mean, you people have quite an imagination. What's next? Mars? Venus? Alpha Centauri? Turks came in the known universe from the 5th plane or something? ~D

On a more serious note, there is no data to support the Mu theory (not the Turkish version of it, the Mu hypothesis in general). It's a nice fairy tale, but nothing past that. Even geological data does not support the notion that 15.000 years in the central-south pacific a large landmass existed. At least for Atlantis we have written "evidence" (if you call Plato's tales "evidential"), it is much more modest (Atlantis, by Platos tales, can be viewed as just a big islands, while Mu is supposed to have been a large continent) but for Lemuria there's absolutely nothing, besides some obscure traditions and some tablets nobody of some credibility ever saw.

Vladimir
01-03-2006, 15:40
Interesting story as I am fascinated by many things Turkish, but nothing more that that I think. As a Discovery channel junkie genetic and, um, weather related science history stuff (whatever that's called) seem to confirm the "explosion" out of Africa theory. The weather data I've seen shows that it's only been for the last 10,000 years that the weather has been stable and temperate enough for long enough to give rise to civilizations. Of course it's good to keep an open mind and challenge the dominant paradigm.

LeftEyeNine
01-03-2006, 16:34
Etruscans, Sumerians, Uighur... and now... Lemurians! I mean, you people have quite an imagination. What's next? Mars? Venus? Alpha Centauri? Turks came in the known universe from the 5th plane or something?

You did not get the idea of the whole article, did you ?

Vladimir,

the article looks like flashes of an idea after all. all data gathered for the article was written through some books only. Such a hypothesis needs a "go and see" proof, IMO. Churchward spent his 50 years on it. And it is the info after 50 years that we can call it a "fairy tale".

The reason I mentioned about Ataturk was in order to reveal some of his scientific interests. He did not spend on a lab for a human-ape army after all ~D

LeftEyeNine
01-03-2006, 18:05
There are a bunch of reports about the researches I mentioned above in TDK (Turkish Office of Language) website.. In case if anyone is interested, I may try translating them as well.

Leet Eriksson
01-03-2006, 18:19
I thought Mu existed only in Conan the barbarian fiction.. ~;p thanks for the translation LEN.

Ludens
01-03-2006, 20:37
If you take time to read it -or not, does not matter- what are your opinions about Mu civilization ? Do you believe in existance of such legendary civilizations above all ? Why and why not ?
I think it is telling that no one since Churchward has seen the tablets again. Also, I would like to know exactly what his contributions to evolution and archeology were. To be honest, I think it sounds a lot like the phantasies of Blavatsky and her tame occultists.

There is no geographical explanation for the rise and fall of these landmasses that left no trace of their existence whatsoever (if one ignores the efforts of enthusiastic fact-finders who, for some reason, stop looking when it seems to fit their theory). The face of the earth is changing, yes, but the movement of continents is horizontal, not vertical to the earth's surface.

Social, cultural and archeological finds cannot be explained entirely by scientific theories, but that is no reason to replace them with non-scientific ones made by people who are very selective when it comes to facts. I assume an archeologist specializing in early mankind would have trouble coming up with finds that do not fit with your theory. All you archeologic references are at least fifty years old. Reliable dating methods are younger and even then there is a lot of controversy about how old most ancient skeletons are.

The idea of a past golden age, when everything was possible, when Gods walked the earth and the world was nice place to live, has tremendous attraction given the usually sorry state of mankind. However, the rise of modern archeology has shown that the world was seldom a nice place, and when it was it tended to be built on the blood of conquered nations and the sweat of slaves. So people start fantasizing about an mothercivilization that was just, technologically advanced and in harmony with nature. They attribute all the good in our present day to this society, while all the bad is blamed to the barbarians that overcame the mothercivilization after it had been swept away by the sea or something similar (because a just, technologically advanced society in harmony with nature cannot be destroyed by anything but a gigantic natural disaster).

That's the way "scientific" theories like these come about.

LeftEyeNine
01-03-2006, 20:50
I think it is telling that no one since Churchward has seen the tablets again. Also, I would like to know exactly what his contributions to evolution and archeology were. To be honest, I think it sounds a lot like the phantasies of Blavatsky and her tame occultists.

There is no geographical explanation for the rise and fall of these landmasses that left no trace of their existence whatsoever (if one ignores the efforts of enthusiastic fact-finders who, for some reason, stop looking when it seems to fit their theory). The face of the earth is changing, yes, but the movement of continents is horizontal, not vertical to the earth's surface.

Social, cultural and archeological finds cannot be explained entirely by scientific theories, but that is no reason to replace them with non-scientific ones made by people who are very selective when it comes to facts. I assume an archeologist specializing in early mankind would have trouble coming up with finds that do not fit with your theory. All you archeologic references are at least fifty years old. Reliable dating methods are younger and even then there is a lot of controversy about how old most ancient skeletons are.

The idea of a past golden age, when everything was possible, when Gods walked the earth and the world was nice place to live, has tremendous attraction given the usually sorry state of mankind. However, the rise of modern archeology has shown that the world was seldom a nice place, and when it was it tended to be built on the blood of conquered nations and the sweat of slaves. So people start fantasizing about an mothercivilization that was just, technologically advanced and in harmony with nature. They attribute all the good in our present day to this society, while all the bad is blamed to the barbarians that overcame the mothercivilization after it had been swept away by the sea or something similar (because a just, technologically advanced society in harmony with nature cannot be destroyed by anything but a gigantic natural disaster).

That's the way "scientific" theories like these come about.

It is a translation from a website article that looked interesting to me. So I'm unable to answer what contributions Churchward made into archeology and theory of evolution and I'm not the person to address about the bolded parts ~:)

I just wanted your opinion on the article, you expressed it, that's all.

Vladimir
01-03-2006, 22:56
I just wanted your opinion on the article, you expressed it, that's all.

And quite an opinion it was. If you do translate similar articles I would be interested in reading them. Also if you included translations (this=that in English) I would be grateful. Hopefully with a pronunciation guide though.

Ludens
01-03-2006, 23:30
It is a translation from a website article that looked interesting to me. So I'm unable to answer what contributions Churchward made into archeology and theory of evolution and I'm not the person to address about the bolded parts ~:)

I just wanted your opinion on the article, you expressed it, that's all.
In that case, please forgive me my harsh tone. I am a bit allergic to this kind of article, as you have probably noticed ~:) . It goes straight against most geographic, archeologic and historical theories, but it is not directed to a scientific audience. The writer ought at least to inform his reader that most scientists consider it nonsense when he presents it as a scientific claim.

Papewaio
01-04-2006, 02:10
Plate tectonics (http://www.odp.usyd.edu.au/odp_CD/sr/srindex.html)

http://www.odp.usyd.edu.au/odp_CD/sr/images/textpics/Fig3.gif

Essentially all the cratons that formed the continents were part of Pangaea.

The process that creates the Hawaiian Islands and the Ring of Fire essentially disproves the existence of a continent existing in the middle of the Pacific.

Hawaiian Formation (http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/earthscience/hawaiian-island-formation-woes-01.html)


The Hawaiian archipelago is a group of 132 islands, reefs, and shoals in the North Pacific Ocean that extends about 1,525 mi (2,454 km) from Kure Atoll (29°N, 178°W) to the big island of Hawaii (19°N, 156°W). This string of geographically remote and geologically unique volcanic islands makes up the U.S. state of Hawaii, and includes the eight main Hawaiian Islands of Ni'ihau, Kauai, Oahu, Molokai, Lanai, Maui, Kahoolawe, and Hawaii. The islands are progressively younger in geologic age toward the southeast; Kauai and Ni'ihau are about 5 million years in age, and the big island of Hawaii is less than 0.5 million years old. Indeed, new volcanic rocks are being deposited at Mt. Kilauea on Hawaii today.

Since the Hawaiian Islands have existed for at least 5 million years (and new ones are being created) it disproves the idea that Mu ever existed in the Pacific in the last 200,000 years.

Either that or the Hawaiian Islands are a collective figment of our imagination.

Rosacrux redux
01-04-2006, 09:15
You did not get the idea of the whole article, did you ?


I think I got it... it says that there was a Mu continent and that Turks come from there. By that it adds up to the series of theories that try to convince us that Turks didn't came into the greater picture after 700 AD, but exist since the 16th century BC (Etruscan theory) the 30th century BC (Sumerian theory) and so on.

IF that's not the point, please enlighten me on what it is.

InsaneApache
01-04-2006, 10:18
I thought this forum was about history, not fantasy. :book:

Seleukos
01-04-2006, 10:52
well,mr Ataturk...this great man had some more interests than slaughtering...

ps:is mu near to woof or miau? :laugh4:

LeftEyeNine
01-04-2006, 12:32
Thanks on the useful info, Pape :bow:


IF that's not the point, please enlighten me on what it is..

It's about the idea of such a continent like Mu above all. Points related to Ataturk are only the means to build the structure of the article. Such a root of origin was a motive on the researches on Mu. You may dislike everything in which words like "Turks" and/or "Ataturk" is included, but backroom is the place for it. Nothing was praised in the article above but you seem well to be sick of even hearing it. Go figure..

Vladimir, thanks for the support but I'm quite convinced that this effort to share something was in vain. I love Ludens' and Pape's counter-proofs on the article, they are totally informative and scientific approaches. But it is quite clear that people have allergy on certain terms and I don't repeat mistakes, I don't want any argument here at least. Thanks anyway :bow:


I thought this forum was about history, not fantasy.

See, Vladimir ? ~:)

Brutus
01-04-2006, 13:38
Mu-menor?




Sorry LeftEyeNine, although these theories always have a tempting sound to it, they are simply unbelievable, however intruiging the 'evidence'. To me (as said by others) it seems there is just no place on earth for such a continent: sea levels would have to have been much higher if there were 2 or 3 (counting Lemuria as well) extra continents long ago: where would all the water have gone?

What to me is most annoying about these theories (although they make great bar-talk) is that people like this Churchward, Erich von Däniken and Graham Hancock seem to want to replace perfectly reasonable theories about the development of humankind (like 'natural development' (science) or 'God' (Religion)) with something that is hardly as logical as those: why does modern man need a kind of 'superhuman race' in their distant past to explain how it ever came to prominence? This actually only takes that same question further away: if humanity did get it's technology, learning, beliefs etc. from a 'superpeople', where did these superpeople get their ideas from?

Still though, thanks for the translation, didn't know this one.:bow:

Rosacrux redux
01-04-2006, 14:25
It's about the idea of such a continent like Mu above all. Points related to Ataturk are only the means to build the structure of the article. Such a root of origin was a motive on the researches on Mu. You may dislike everything in which words like "Turks" and/or "Ataturk" is included, but backroom is the place for it. Nothing was praised in the article above but you seem well to be sick of even hearing it. Go figure..



How typical a reaction! When confronted with some humorous irony, you resort to the old, tired and, frankly, cheap "yah, you dislike Turks who cares about what you say"... nice and constructive.

I haven't showed any tendancy of what you accuse me ("You may dislike everything in which words like "Turks" and/or "Ataturk" is included") during the years I post on the .Org forums, and I find such an attack rather unfounded, downright hostile and unjustified, not to mention humorless :no:

The way I read the article, the points about Ataturk were not just "the means to build the structure of the article", but a focal point of the whole idea - the fact that "the father of Turks" belived Turks to be coming from Mu, renders the otherwise unbelievable tale of Lemuria, Valid and something one could believe in. If you've read the second paragraph (you probably haven't since you seem allergic in humor, so got repulsed from the first two lines) you'd see that I was already stating that geological analysis has disproven the Mu fairy tale long ago... Why didn't you read it? Go figure...

Vladimir
01-04-2006, 14:34
Slightly OT: I've never been comfortable with the super continent Pangaea. I know all the evidence is there but why was only one, joined land mass above sea level? I know why it separated but why was it together in the first place? Do the plates keep going back and fourth? It's clear that Pangaea existed for a long period of time but why? I know science describes more than it explains (I think that's the quote). I haven't heard a description of how Pangaea formed just how it separated. It's most improbable that a continent sized mass formed and vanished but certain areas like the state of Florida are "new" land and there was a time where the central US was a shallow ocean.

I'm very much against the theory of a golden age of mankind. You know how everyone romanticizes the past, even within their lifetime, because people remember the good and try to forget the bad. That kind of thinking also held us back for thousands of years by thinking that our best days were behind us, not ahead of us. I like to think that the whole "promise of the future" is an American concept but if not, it's at least my philosophy. Fear of the unknown (future) also contributes to the belief of the past golden age. Pessimism is easy.

To all the skeptics who hold firmly to what is "accepted" science, don't fall into the trap of the dominant paradigm. New historical ideas, even if they're wacky, may hold some truth or even be truth. Anyone who knows the history of science knows that.

LeftEyeNine
01-04-2006, 15:57
Brutus, :bow:

Rosacrux Redux,

Ataturk sent Tahsin Mayatepek as an ambassador to Mexico, after getting continuous improvements on the matter, ordered a copy of the book and gathered a comission of scientists to analyse on what was in hand. What is wrong with this ? We are not told that we come from the land of Mu neither by Ataturk nor any other educative means today.

I said it was all about this research being done, it's all over. The article above was an individual effort of someone on a topic that he was interested. I'm overwhelmed by the destructive reaction like yours. Please let it stop here.

After Vladimir's last post, I came up with the question : When it was a Pangaea, how much space was left for waters ? And was it all water ? Any info on that please?

Kraxis
01-07-2006, 01:39
I'm watching...

Vladimir: Pangea needs not have been totally above water. For instance North America had a very large inlet from about Lousiana all the way up to Canada only a few million years ago.
Obviously similar possibilities are there for Pangea, but along the lines of connection there would have been land, that is how it is elsewhere now (when they bump into each other mountains form).

I have seen a few graphics about how Pangea was formed in the first place, and it seems that the tectonic plates act very much like boats. They sort of bumped into each other and formed the Pangea landmass, with massive central mountains (I have not read any ideas of how big but it is not impossible they were 15-17 km high at their peak). Then slowly the force of the impact was absorbed and turned into reactionary force, repelling the plates in various directions, just like boats would behave if they collided, but at much slower speeds and very much larger scales.
In time India will not longer push upwards as forcefully, but for it to stop it unlikely since it is a small plate (the bigger ones push it into Asia).

We can 'almost' see this in the different drifts of North America and South America. In time the North will 'race' ahead and connect with Asia while the South might very well already be on the decline since the Andes are in fact slowly getting smaller (not enough push to make up for erosion).