Hugo Chavez - Man of the People and Jew Hating Master of the Funk

[Spino]

Bashes Jews yet loves Jesus. Gosh, you just can't keep a good dictator down...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1136361025285&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


A Jewish rights organization accused Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez of making anti-Semitic comments during a Christmas Eve speech.

The Los Angeles, California-based Simon Wiesenthal Center demanded an apology from Chavez in a statement issued Wednesday, saying such remarks have long been used to persecute Jews.

"Some minorities, descendants of the same ones who crucified Christ ... took all the world's wealth for themselves," Chavez said in the Dec. 24 speech.

"In your words, the two central arguments of anti-Semitism emerge ... the accusation that Jews killed Jesus (and) associating them with wealth," the Center said in a letter sent to Chavez. "Our center strongly condemns your anti-Semitic declarations."

Chavez did not did not mention the Jewish people explicitly in the speech, which was broadcast on national television. A spokeswoman for the president's office said it had no immediate response to the complaint.

During the speech, Chavez also praised Jesus Christ as a revolutionary hero, saying he was the world's first true socialist.

The letter was signed by Shimon Samuels, the Center's international relations director, and Sergio Widder, a Latin American representative based in Argentina.

They said the Center would urge the governments of Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay to "freeze the process" of incorporating Venezuela into the Mercosur trade bloc unless Chavez makes a public apology.

Widder said Thursday that the group had yet to receive a response. He said even if Chavez had not intended to refer to Jews, the possibility for that interpretation was cause for concern.

"The words of a head of state should be cautious," Widder said.

The Jewish rights organization has expressed concerns about other comments by Chavez in the past. Chavez, a fiery speaker who says he is leading Venezuela toward socialism, has said he wants to have good relations will all religious groups.

Venezuela's president is known for speaking candidly. On one occasion he used an epithet in referring to US President George W. Bush, and he once suggested US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was illiterate, offering to send her materials to learn how to read and write.

Chavez's barbs are usually aimed at opposition leaders or US officials, but he has also criticized Latin American leaders such as Mexican President Vicente Fox and former Ecuadorean President Lucio Gutierrez.

[Lazul]

Might not be liking Jews, but he isnt a Dictator.

[JAG]

A dictator?! He is more legitimate than Bush and his govt - you lost any credibility with your post there.

[Scurvy]

He's definately not a dictator...

[English assassin]

"In your words, the [ ] central arguments of anti-Semitism emerge ... the accusation that Jews killed Jesus

I'm not being funny or anti semitic here, but, IIRC correctly surely the bible claims the jews DID kill Jesus? Doesn't Pilate wash his hands and hand Jesus over to the jewish authorities?

Not that I think that has any relevance to how anyone should think of jewish people today.

[Vladimir]

Benevolent despot maybe?

[Lazul]

Benevolent despot maybe?

No, elected by the people. Not that hard to understand, sit back and think for a while.

[Spino]

This is hysterical...

The theme and content of my post deals exclusively with the subject of racism via Chavez's anti-semitic remarks and yet my inclusion of a single word, 'dictator', sends two of the Org's most notorious lefties into a tangential tizzy.

Please deal with the main issue at hand. Some time ago I caught flak by lumping Chavez into the infamous dictator club which includes Hall of Famers like Hitler and Stalin and yet here we have Hugo clearly following in their footsteps by taking a 'blame the Jews' page from their respective playbooks.


I'm not being funny or anti semitic here, but, IIRC correctly surely the bible claims the jews DID kill Jesus? Doesn't Pilate wash his hands and hand Jesus over to the jewish authorities?
Well technically they did, at least as far as Jesus' condemnation is concerned. But they condemned him under the jurisdiction of Roman law which granted them the right to pass judgment. It's the tone and timing of Chavez's speech (given on Christmas Eve and during Channukah) that makes the reference particularly alarming. The part about Jews "taking all the world's wealth for themselves" is the one that worries me the most. However, I'm thankful that Chavez is a man of the people, elected leader and global sponsor of democracy because if he were an actual 'dictator' I might be inclined to think he was laying the political groundwork for illegal seizure of private property via 'redistribution of wealth' style legislation.


A dictator?! He is more legitimate than Bush and his govt - you lost any credibility with your post there.
You've been one of Chavez's most ardent supporters here in the Org and now that your golden boy let a few of his true colors come shining through this is your your best response to my post? I'll gladly change the word 'dictator' to 'president' in my original post if you'll simply deal with the issue at hand.

I'm particularly disappointed that nobody has disputed my claim that Chavez happens to be a Master of the Funk. Are there are no George Clinton fans here in the Org?

[Byzantine Prince]

Ummm, you live in New York, you know very well who has a big part of the wealth. :wink:
I think Mister Chavez was complimenting the Jews on being so wealthy. Why would calling someone rich be an insult is beyond me. :confused:
And yes the Jews did kill Jesus. Jesus Christ!

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

"Some minorities, descendants of the same ones who crucified Christ ... took all the world's wealth for themselves," Chavez said in the Dec. 24 speech.


Doesn't sound complimentary to me.

[English assassin]

The bit about taking all the worlds wealth does seem pretty dodgy fair enough.


I'm particularly disappointed that nobody has disputed my claim that Chavez happens to be a Master of the Funk. Are there are no George Clinton fans here in the Org?

That picture didn't make him look as if he shakes his booty on a regular basis, and he is clearly neither getting up, or down on it, so I'd have to say I'm pretty doubtful about that claim.

[lars573]

So because Chavez was elected without the support of the rich and steps on them when ever he gets the chance. Steals back sorry redistriputes the countrys oil wealth to the help the poorest. Runs the country like an army regiment. Talks smack about the US. Is a hardcore socialist. And wears the presidents badges of office like bling. Hates on the Jews a little. He must be a dictator. :idea2: Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :laugh4:

Sorry I'd support Hugo Chavez over George W. "Dick Chaney's puppet" Bush 10 times out of 10.

[BDC]

"Some minorities, descendants of the same ones who crucified Christ ... took all the world's wealth for themselves," Chavez said in the Dec. 24 speech.


Romans?

[Crazed Rabbit]

He is more legitimate than Bush and his govt

And you just slipped into negative territory credibility wise.

He may have been elected freely enough, but his actions after that are those of someone striving to become a dictator. Even the recall election was full of irregularities and restrictions on voting monitering organizations.

Tell me, JAG, why would he change the constitution to give himself greater power if he wasn't trying to become a dictator?
Why would he outlaw free speech and political dissent?
Why would he pack the supreme court to ensure they never disagreed with him?
Why would he pass laws enabling him to shut down any newspaper or news station that he didn't like?

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200505070444
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18041

These are the actions of a dicator, to be sure. So why do you insist on saying he isn't a growing tyrant? Why would anyone who truly respected the democratic progress and abided by its rules do any one of the above things?

Or are you just going to ignore this all, because you can't argue against it?

Crazed Rabbit

[Ronin]

Tell me, JAG, why would he change the constitution to give himself greater power if he wasn't trying to become a dictator?
Why would he outlaw free speech and political dissent?
Why would he pack the supreme court to ensure they never disagreed with him?
Why would he pass laws enabling him to shut down any newspaper or news station that he didn't like?




you know I read those lines and I´m not 100% sure which of the 2 you are talking about :juggle2:

[Vladimir]

Interesting how socialists believe that there is a fixed amount of wealth in the universe. If you're talking gold deposits than sure, but we deal with cash money (and sometimes just numbers i.e. direct deposit). People don't get rich by stuffing money in their mattress (hoarding). If the Jews took all the worlds wealth then why do I have any money in my pocket at all?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

because you're a Jew?

:wall:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

you know I read those lines and I´m not 100% sure which of the 2 you are talking about :juggle2:

Cute line.

Have to agree, for the most part, with our org's self-named insane rodent.

Chavez was elected in open and relatively corruption free elections.

Chavez used a demagogic approach (external enemies + have-not v have populism + economic hand-outs) to secure power. This is not new, and dates back AT LEAST to the brothers Grachi if not long before. Of itself, it is not necessarily despotic -- though it often trends that way. Any shots against the Jews are simply classic examples of the "external" enemies approach -- blame any observable problems on the "external" force. Attacking the "Christ-killers" has been a distraction ploy in Western politics since the middle ages.

Chavez has moved to enhance presidential power and to create a framework through which he can't (in practical terms) be removed from power -- though no law states directly that he is a ruler for life.

Chavez' opposition, by boycotting the election in protest of Chavez' domination of the election commission, effectively handed the legislature over to Chavez supporters in its entirety. By opting out of the political process, they run the risk of allowing:

The legislature to vote itself out of existence Reichstag-style.

Chavez to re-structure things so that political dissent isn't legal on any level.

Themselves to have to foment revolution to enact change.

All-in-all, I think Chavez HAS wandered over the line from demagogic populist to Dictator. But he didn't do it alone and a majority of Venezualans appear to be happy with him in charge.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Remember kids: if you hate Jews and run a socialist state that flirts with fascism, you're not only not bad, but a great guy, to boot!

:no:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Have to agree, for the most part, with our org's self-named insane rodent.


WHAT?!?!? I'm an insane rodent? Actually, rabbits are of the family leporidae, along with hares, and of the order lagomorpha. So I'll thank you not to call me a rodent. ~;)

Crazed Rabbit

PS Oh, and crazed could mean other things besides insane, such as mad, full of rage, etc. ~D

[Major Robert Dump]

Just political grandstanding. Yes, Hitler and Stalin did it, too, but if I may, for a moment, point out THE DISTINCT LACK OF JEWS IN SOUTH AMERICA. So we are all still safe from the mighty Venezuala military machine, fellow orgies, no need to invade him yet. Him and the president of Mexico need to get together and have a black/jew fry and sell it on cable it would be a big hit.

[Xiahou]

Just political grandstanding. Yes, Hitler and Stalin did it, too, but if I may, for a moment, point out THE DISTINCT LACK OF JEWS IN SOUTH AMERICA. So we are all still safe from the mighty Venezuala military machine, fellow orgies, no need to invade him yet.
Well, there are about half a million living in South America. :book:

[Nerouin]

Good old exercises in futility, from one side that won't admit that the other side's point has any merit at all and conjures up all sorts of bullshit to decry it, to the other side that won't admit that the first side's point has any merit at all and conjures up more of the same.

Though honestly, speaking completely objectively, I can't see how a world leader speaking in a degrading, racist fashion about a certain group is anything but bad. You can admit that, and still think the guy is a decent leader overall.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Nope. Chavez is our Socialist Messiah. Just Ask JAG!(TM)

[Byzantine Prince]

Nope. Chavez is our Socialist Messiah. Just Ask JAG!(TM)
That is so lame I almost can't take it the way it was intended. :inquisitive:

[Soulforged]

As I see no question here I'll answer to the whole article:

The Los Angeles, California-based Simon Wiesenthal Center demanded an apology from Chavez in a statement issued Wednesday, saying such remarks have long been used to persecute Jews.So what's the problem. Now jews cannot receive either critics or bigotary comments? Of course it was a president...but why the hell the letter comes from California? There are some jews in Venezuela, if they're worried they'll act themselves. Again I'm not with Mr. President, but jews are lately offended by anything even if it's true.

"Some minorities, descendants of the same ones who crucified Christ ... took all the world's wealth for themselves," Chavez said in the Dec. 24 speech.The first part is well known to be truth, if Jesus ever existed. As for the second part (wich is a part of a larger statement as I can see) well it appears to resembles somebody else's opinions of the jews, but it can be truth as well. Notice that presidents usually speak with rethoric, lie and are demogogic almost by nature, so my advice will be not take any words of any president seriously, just their actions.

"In your words, the two central arguments of anti-Semitism emerge ... the accusation that Jews killed Jesus (and) associating them with wealth," the Center said in a letter sent to Chavez. "Our center strongly condemns your anti-Semitic declarations."It appears that the jewish leaders are always there to codemn. Even if Chavez didn't said it was them, and the accusations are true, and the second is not particulary wrong at all, but it seems that aimed at a "minority?" the words hurt more.

During the speech, Chavez also praised Jesus Christ as a revolutionary hero, saying he was the world's first true socialist.He's not the first.

They said the Center would urge the governments of Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay to "freeze the process" of incorporating Venezuela into the Mercosur trade bloc unless Chavez makes a public apology.LOL- It appears that in Latin America everyone has the power to do anything. This señor is just words, he surely manages great part of the wealth, as the jewish community usually does actually, but he has no power to do such thing.

Widder said Thursday that the group had yet to receive a response. He said even if Chavez had not intended to refer to Jews, the possibility for that interpretation was cause for concern.Why is it cause of concern, did Chavez take any action against jews?

Venezuela's president is known for speaking candidly. On one occasion he used an epithet in referring to US President George W. Bush, and he once suggested US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was illiterate, offering to send her materials to learn how to read and write.If I'm not mistaken, Castro, or more specifically, Cuba was menaced by Rice not so long ago, with an invasion, wich is much more an issue than Chavez comments, wich are out of place but nothing more. Rice also menaced with killing Castro if I'm not mistaken.

[Nerouin]

Did any of you know that the idea that the Jews killed Jesus was not widely accepted or even officially introduced until Constantine introduced it during his reign?

So no, I wouldn't really call it "common knowledge" or "history."

Soulforge, as for what you have said about "the Jews being offended by anything," you have reduced yourself to making categorical comments about the Jewish people.

Well, let's do one about your people-- " 'the Argentines' admit dangerous, murderous, evil war criminals, a'la Eichmann, to their country.. oh, and they were rooting for the nazis for much of world war II and indeed giving them covert or overt assistance at period throughout. Not just the government-- all of them, down to the last child."

Now, do you think that's in any way viable or accurate?

[Soulforged]

Did any of you know that the idea that the Jews killed Jesus was not widely accepted or even officially introduced until Constantine introduced it during his reign? No I didn't knew, but between one myth is hard to discover some truth, so let's talk about faith.

So no, I wouldn't really call it "common knowledge" or "history." I didn't call it common knowledge though certainly it's, and I never called it history either.

Soulforge, as for what you have said about "the Jews being offended by anything," you have reduced yourself to making categorical comments about the Jewish people.Sorry you're right I meant "some" jewsm, specially the leaders.

Well, let's do one about your people-- " 'the Argentines' admit dangerous, murderous, evil war criminals, a'la Eichmann, to their country.. oh, and they were rooting for the nazis for much of world war II and indeed giving them covert or overt assistance at period throughout. Not just the government-- all of them, down to the last child."Not offended at all actually it's pretty hilarious just for the inaccuracy of it. Eichmann was argentinian? Well that's news to me, however the analogy is pretty wrong my friend. Yes we did provided assistance to the nazis, as other countries did, however we did not entered other people's dominion and stealed their habitants. Oh but wait it has nothing to do right? You did said it was innacurate on purpose, but you're fast in pointing other people's mistake and responding in accordance making exactly the same mistake. But guess what I still defend Eichmann, not because I like the nazis or Eichmann particularily, but because he came here and was accepted and tolerated, and he deserved a fair trial as any other person. But wait that doesn't matter either...

Hey guess what the point is still there: that Jesus was encomended to the punishment of crucifixion by the jewish authorities (and that the jews today are actually the descendants of the ancient) is common knowledge, and I had not heard any categorical refutation of such an statement, but please try. And that saying that they've all the wealth in the world, is out of place, as I've admitted (all the speech is out of place actually), but tell me objectivelly what's wrong with being rich, and please do tell me when Chavez expresselly says jews.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Didn't know about the Constatine link...that chap had a lot of influence on the Church for a guy who wasn't our Holy Father.

"I wanted to be King and Pope, but I can't because I'm a..."
(Forget the show that was from:laugh4: )


Seriously though, the creed (Nicene) I say on Sundays asserts that he was:

"crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered, died and was buried."

Though the gospels clearly assert that the movers and shakers among the Sanhedrin sought his death for blasphemy, they lacked the power at that point in history. Pilate "washing his hands" of the matter was simply fig-leafing the willingness to let Christ be killed. Moreover, the gospels go on to suggest that it was Pilate's soldiers who did the job.

So we have Constantine to thank for the old tradition of anti-semitism, hmmm.



Chavez: Latin-american socialist reformer/hero, blustering dictator, or dead lettuc picker union boss -- you decide.

[solypsist]

is this still about chavez?

[Lemur]

is this still about chavez?
Of course. As well as Jews, Romans, socialism, ad hominem attacks, the proper classification of rabbits, and who really is the Master of Funk.

I think it's wrong wrong wrong to call Chavez a master of funk. Has he set the roof on fire? Has he gotten my back up off the wall? Is he the hardest working man in show biz? Can he get down on it? Will he take me to funkytown? Can he freak out, le chic?

I think not.

[lars573]

Of course. As well as Jews, Romans, socialism, ad hominem attacks, the proper classification of rabbits, and who really is the Master of Funk.

I think it's wrong wrong wrong to call Chavez a master of funk. Has he set the roof on fire? Has he gotten my back up off the wall? Is he the hardest working man in show biz? Can he get down on it? Will he take me to funkytown? Can he freak out, le chic?

I think not.
He probably could take you to the non-union Mexican equivalent of funky town, funky sierra. He has freaked out a bunch of times. The army is good for getting backs off the wall. Give him a chance he'll get down on it. Chavez is in politics they do more work in show biz in 5 minutes than James Brown did in 57.3 years (seriously I worked it out). Hell I can set a roof on fire Chavez has guys to that for him. So while he may not be a master of the funk he is a padawan of the funk.

[Tribesman]

Just out of interest, can anyone find a full transcript of this speech without the "...." bits missing from it ?

Oh , in English please , my Spanish is terrible .

[Quietus]

who really is the Master of Funk.

I think it's wrong wrong wrong to call Chavez a master of funk. Has he set the roof on fire? Has he gotten my back up off the wall? Is he the hardest working man in show biz? Can he get down on it? Will he take me to funkytown? Can he freak out, le chic?

I think not.Haha. George Clinton, Kool & the Gang, James Brown, and (I forgot Funkytown) Chic. Is Chavez a Superfreak?

[Ironside]

Only found bits of it translated from spanish on wikinews.


"some minorities, the descendants of such who crucified Christ, the descendants of such who ejected Bolivar from here and, in their way, also crucified him in Santa Marta up in Columbia. One minority became owner of the world's riches, one minority became owner of the world's gold, of the silver of the minerals, of the water, of the good lands, of the petroleum, of the riches, and concentrated the riches into the hands of the few."

The full speech in Spanish is linked on the site.

Link (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A1vez_accused_of_anti-Semitism_in_Christmas_speech)

[Major Robert Dump]

He has obviously been spending too much time with the nazis in hiding who moved to south amrerica. it's no coincidence that one sees german architecture all over the continent, the most perhaps in bolivia.

I like it when world leaders say garbage like this. It makes them look stupid and lets them experience the wonderful world of diplomatic isolation. maybe he could let all the palestenians colonize in his country, i wouldnt mind so much them being in driving distance as long as we get the wall built in time.

[Meneldil]

Well, wether you support Chavez or not, I hardly see how some people can't and apparently don't want to blame him for this statement. If it was made by Bush, Chirac, Blair or even Amadinejhad (sp), everyone would have been like "OMG OMG OMG OMFG !".

[Tribesman]

The full speech in Spanish is linked on the site.

Thanks Ironside .

So ......Critics cite this as evidence bigotry, accusing Chávez of promoting Jewish conspiracy theories. It is unclear at best, however, who exactly the leader means by "descendants of such who crucified Christ," especially in translation. .....strange that , isn't it .
I never realised the Spanish crucified Christ .:laugh4:

[L'Impresario]

It seems to me this is blown out of proportion. I read the specific passage (p.18 in the .pdf file found in the link above) and it's farfetched to accuse Chávez of anti-semitism based on this text. A close acquaitance that does most translations for the Venezuelan embassy here, didn't notice anything sinister as well, just the usual Chávez rhetoric heh

[Soulforged]

I don't see the word "judío" used at any moment in the whole transcript, not only in that particular speech but in the whole audition. Now if one could deduct something from his words then it's this: or he's a conspiracy theorist, or he really hates jews (wich I don't believe) or he's not refering to the jews, but to the rich perhaps.

[Meneldil]

It's well known that the rich descend from the people who killed Jesus :idea2:

[Soulforged]

It's well known that the rich descend from the people who killed Jesus :idea2:
Yes well you know one can always find a way to justify ones mistakes.:laugh4:

[L'Impresario]

El mundo tiene para todos, pues, pero resulta que unas minorías, los descendientes de los mismos que crucificaron a
Cristo, los descendientes de los mismos que echaron a Bolívar de aquí y también lo crucificaron a su manera en Santa Marta, allá en Colombia. Una minoría se adueñó de las riquezas del mundo, una minoría se adueñó del oro del planeta, de la plata, de los minerales, de las aguas, de las tierras buenas, del petróleo, de las riquezas, pues, y han concentrado las riquezas en pocas manos: menos del diez por ciento de la población del mundo es dueña de más de la mitad de la riqueza de todo el mundo y a la... más de la mitad de los pobladores del planeta son pobres y cada día hay más pobres en el mundo entero.

And here a rough translation:
"The world has (enough resources) for everyone, well, but it turns out that some minorities, the descendants of the same that crucified Christ, the descendants of the same that casted away Bolívar from here and also crucified him in their way in Santa Marta, there in Colombia. A minority controls the riches of the world, a minority controls the planet's gold, the silver, the ores, the water, the good lands of oil, the riches and [they] have amassed the riches in few hands: less than 10% of the world population controls more than half the wealth of the whole world and ... more than half of the planet's populace is poor and each day there are more poor throughout the entire world."

It's better reading more of the text in order to have an oppinion about it.
If you 've read previous speeches then it's easy to see that Chávez frequently tries to use the rich-poor antithesis in any subject he's talking about, even if some of his metaphores and theoretical schemes are less than successful. Bolívar is ofcourse a recurrent theme and here he just attempts to draw a parallel between him and Jesus, both revolutionaries and betrayed by petty people with vested interests (I can assume that in the case of Jesus, one can think of the hieratical elite and their doublestandards).

The usual Chávez fare heh
Actually, I wouldn't advise you to read the latest Venezuelan Constitution; it's a bit over the top with pomposity being quite a prominent element.

[Tachikaze]

I read the original post a few times. Even though I have been a supporter of Chavez, I must admit that I think that statement is anti-Jewish. I tried to read it as just anti-rich, but I think his implication is clear. I think this is sad, but I still support what he is trying to do. I hope he learns something about bigotry. In L'Impresario's post, Chavez's statement does not seem anti-Jewish.

On the issue of who killed Christ, I think it is critical to the Gospels plotline that the Pharisee priests of Jerusalem sanctioned the execution of Jesus. It is also important that the common people, who had at first followed Jesus, turned against him with mob mentality. Like fundamentalist Christians today, they were not thinking people, but people who act emotionally on hateful rhetoric.

Were they Jews? Of course, many or most were, but that is only because the populace of that area were mainly Jewish. Jesus (the hero), Mary Magdalene, Jesus' mother, and the apostles were also Jewish. For that matter, so was Moses. What I'm saying is that most of the people there except the Romans were Jewish, so they will make up the bulk of the protagonists and antagonists of any Biblical story.

If the crowd who turned against Jesus had been any ethnic group, they still would have done the same. I have no doubt that fundmentalist Christians in the US today would condemn a modern Christ with the same kind of mob mentality.

Did the Romans kill Jesus? I think they originally had no motive. But when the Pharisess convinced them that Jesus was a threat to stable Roman rule, they acquiesced.

Did the Pharisees kill Jesus because they were Jewish? No, because they were the religious power base, and they felt threatened.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The longer translation (thanks for the work!) gives the speech a bit of a different tone.

As Soulforged sugggests, its more of his familiar have v have not theme. Yes, I think that kind of phrasing reflects anti-jewish reflexive thinking, but I'd be willing to concede that his central point was mostly focused on the more classic socialist staple of completely equivalent distribution of resources and wealth.

Its sad that so many folks take such a stance in their reflexive thinking. The old steroetype of the "greedy jew" is as intellectually annoying as is Robertson's "God as Petulant vengeful child" model or that Iranian leader's harping on the need to wipe Israel off the map.

[Soulforged]

Its sad that so many folks take such a stance in their reflexive thinking. The old steroetype of the "greedy jew" is as intellectually annoying as is Robertson's "God as Petulant vengeful child" model or that Iranian leader's harping on the need to wipe Israel off the map.
Well here the stereotypes are drew in a form of joke, we always mess with the jews and make jokes about them being greedy or great negotiators, but that's just it, I think that the custom applies to all South America. This doesn't pass from a joke that's the limit, I think that the comments were misplaced as Chavez usually gets carried away in the passion, but I think that this isn't really a focus of preocupation as the jewish leaders might want to portray it.

[Sartaq]

I woulden't call it anti-Jewish so much, but rather unintelligent.

The Jews ofcourse will act like they take offence whether they really do or not. On the world stage it's more advantageous to stand up for yourself than be rolled over.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

HEIL CHAVEZ! Für immer mein Fürher!

I always knew the man was evil. Lets hang him. Seriously. It'll be fun. We'll have a barbeque and kareoke and a hanging...maybe a concert too!

[lars573]

Fine but only if I get to hang GW Bush.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Fine but only if I get to hang GW Bush.
Sure, we'd get a better man (cheney) anyway.

[lars573]

Hmm good point. Tell you what you can have Castro for the electric chair if I get Cheney too. :deal:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Hmm good point. Tell you what you can have Castro for the electric chair if I get Cheney too. :deal:
Alright but I'll trade you rice for Omar el-Bashir then.

[lars573]

Fine. A pleasure doing buisness with you.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It's a deal. The three politicians are being transferred to you as we speak. A pleasure doing buisness with you.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

And you Mr. Nolife...

[alman7272]

Alright, this post was an accident and can be deleted.

[Adrian II]

How could I miss this thread earlier on?

It is the Pharisees that Chavez was talking about. :wall:

Remember them from your Bible class? The representatives of the haves who use subterfuge and twisted logic to defend their wealth and privilege from the have-nots? The guys Christ took his whip to, and chased from the Temple, before they in turn whupped him good with Roman assistance? The same class of people (Spanish priests and landowners) chased Bolívar from his beloved Venezuela and destroyed his popular republic of Greater Colombia because they were too attached to their wealth to share it with the ordinary folk. The landed elite who isolated him from his people and who were the despair of his deathbed in Santa Maria. Learn some language and read up on your Latin American history before you judge, bunch of illiterate gringos.
The original: 'El mundo tiene para todos, pues, pero resulta que unas minorías, los descendientes de los mismos que crucificaron a Cristo, los descendientes de los mismos que echaron a Bolívar de aquí y también lo crucificaron a su manera en Santa Marta, allá en Colombia. Una minoría se adueñó de las riquezas del mundo (..)’

In English: 'The world has enough for all then, but it turns out that some minorities, the descendants of those who crucified Christ, the descendants of those who chased Bolivar from here and in their own way crucified him in Santa Marta, back in Colombia. A minority has appropriated the worlds riches (..)'.All you can say against Chavez speech is that some of his sentences are not grammatically correct, but that applies to most spoken texts particularly if improvised.

What a carfuffle about nothing. You'd think those protesting Jewish organisations had more pressing things to do than invent anti-Semitism. :dizzy2:

Link (http://www.gobiernoenlinea.gob.ve/docMgr/sharedfiles/Chavez_visita_Centro_Manantial_de_los_suenos24122005.pdf)

[Don Corleone]

You're really reaching on that one, Adrian. If Chavez meant such a particular target as the Pharisees, don't you think he would have chosen a more particular reference, or clarified just who he meant? "The people that killed Christ" is not to, to the layman, a reference to the Pharisees. Gentiles hear that and they think "Jews". If he wanted to specify the Pharisees, he could have said something along the lines of "Those that were in power over the masses that killed Christ despite what the people wanted" or some other such that would draw a distinction between the Jews in charge and Jews at large.

I know he's the perfect man to the Left, but you're gonna have to do better than that to defend him. He really put his foot in it this time. What's more, personal attacks, such as 'illiterate gringos' isn't going to do much to win hearts and minds to your viewpoint.

He leido el discurso en el espanol original. No puedo decir para seguro que Chavez definamente estaba tratando a incitar violencia en contra de los hebreos, pero puedo decir que eso es la explanacion con la mas credibilidad. No estoy como intelligente tan tu, Adrian, de curso, pero no estoy un gringo analfabeto tampoco.

[L'Impresario]

Well, at least to me, what he meant was really quite obvious, but we all do want to pass judgement on issues we don't have direct or basic knowledge of, especially when it further demonises people who can be easily caricaturized, and one must recognise that Chávez is a good target indeed.

[Fragony]

Jews always complain about antisemitism, it kind of loses it's edge. Toes that long are best ignored.

[Adrian II]

If Chavez meant such a particular target as the Pharisees, don't you think he would have chosen a more particular reference, or clarified just who he meant?Don't be ridiculous. Chavez makes a December 24 speech about elites and their antics through the ages, and as their victims he singles out Christ because it is Christmas and Simón Bolívar because, well, can you guess why?

EDIT

Oh look:


The Venezuelan Jewish community leadership and several major American Jewish groups are accusing the Simon Wiesenthal Center of rushing to judgment by charging Venezuela's leftist president, Hugo Chavez, with making antisemitic remarks.

Officials of the leading organization of Venezuelan Jewry were preparing a letter this week to the center, complaining that it had misinterpreted Chavez's words and had failed to consult with them before attacking the Venezuelan president.

"You have interfered in the political status, in the security, and in the well-being of our community. You have acted on your own, without consulting us, on issues that you don't know or understand," states a draft of the letter obtained by the Forward. Copies of the letter are also to be sent to the heads of the World Jewish Congress and the American Jewish Committee, among other Jewish groups.

"We believe the president was not talking about Jews and that the Jewish world must learn to work together," said Fred Pressner, president of the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela.

Both the AJCommittee and the American Jewish Congress seconded the Venezuelan community's view that Chavez's comments were not aimed at Jews. All three groups said he was aiming his barbs at the white oligarchy that has dominated the region since the colonial era, pointing to his reference to Bolivar as the clearest evidence of his intent.

One official noted that Latin America's so-called Liberation Theology has long depicted Jesus as a socialist and consequently speaks of gentile business elites as "Christ-killers."

Etcetera etcetera :yawn:

Link (http://www.forward.com/articles/7189)

[Soulforged]

Well I always thought that he could be talking about other people, but that presentation was very informative. Thanks Adrian II, as always.:2thumbsup:

[GoreBag]

I think Adrian's right. As far as I can tell, he was trying to say that Capitalism killed Yeshua. It's not offensive to Jews, just anyone with half a brain.