The Spartans

[normanng]

My copy of RTW is on its way to me and I cannot wait to try out EB. My question is... are the Spartan hoplites in the mod? I know they are not as legendary as they used to be, but I wonder if the Spartiates are modelled. Can someone post screenshots of them? Thanks a bunch!

Norm

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Not done yet. I am also unable confidently to say that they will be in any near build. They are on the books, and we want them in, but we desperately need help skinning/modelling. Desperately.

[Malrubius]

Desperately.

:helloo:

There's probably somebody out there who'd like to see them in the game, enough to model and/or skin them.

[Jebus]

Couldn't you just - perhaps - ask if you could use one of the zillion Spartan hoplite skins that are out there?


I mean, at least one of them has to be historically correct...

[Kampfduck]

as i most of the time play as the greek, now in eb before in rtr, the spartan unit was always myu favorite, and i used it a lot, only a few of them where often enough to conquer a much bigger armee, so the spartans are my favorite, hope it shows up in the next patch. wait and see.

thx for this mod, its great and even better then rtr in my opinion.

[khelvan]

I am afraid that none of us have the time to go searching through the forum for them - if people can post examples here, that would be great.

[Jebus]

I am afraid that none of us have the time to go searching through the forum for them - if people can post examples here, that would be great.


Doesn't really take much time - I just searched for 'Spartan' in the TWC download section, and Voilà! (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?act=search&sub=02)


Enjoy.


*EDIT* Linking directly to search results obviously doesn't work. Anyway, these (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25275) seem like good skins... I can't vouch for the historical correctness of them, though.

*EDIT2* And these (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=177) bear the name of 'historic Spartans', so I guess these might have a good chance of being historically correct. The artist did not give any sources, though.

[Kampfduck]

ive looked to the models,
but im afraid that these are totally outdated for the eb mod, these models are from around 400 bc.

[normanng]

Is the vanilla Spartans in RTW pretty accurate? With the pylos (sp?) helmet and the crimson cloak. But form what I understand they do not wear the red cloaks in combat. Do they wear armor too?

There seems to be a drought of information on the Spartans during the RTW time period.

Norm

[khelvan]

Doesn't really take much time - I just searched for 'Spartan' in the TWC download section, and Voilà! (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?act=search&sub=02)I think you missed my point. It takes two seconds to enter "Spartan" and run the search. It takes a good deal of time to search through the threads and find attractive candidates.

Thank you for your attempt to help, however.

[Kampfduck]

yes, they didnt wear there red cloaks in battle, so most of the skins are wrong!

In the timeperiod of the mod, called the hellenistic era, the popularity of the hoplon
shield was falling, and the smaller pikemans shield was favorite, so maybe the spartans also
were using this kind of shield and not the hoplon.


If i find more info i will post it here.

[EdwardL]

no, i dont believe the spartans lost touch with the hoplon, even up to the timeframe EB is in. It was a sacred item in spartan society that would not have been tarnished in time. Spartans were also too traditional and too idealogically egocentric, to adapt to such an insulting shield.

"Come home with this shield, or upon it"

[Kampfduck]

Maybe a good argument, yes, for sure is that the hoplon was still used in this timeframe, so maybe they still would carry one.

But how about there armor and helmet type? and would they still use the old style hoplites?

Like said before, its difficult to find information abput sparta in this period on the net, but im still searching ;)

[edyzmedieval]

Why don't you use the Spartan Royal Guards?!(check ER's tutorial on how to add new units)

They are well made, and you basically need to change their name.

[Zenith Darksea]

The appearance of the Spartan in this period is generally disputed. But we can be fairly sure of the following, I think:

1. They did not wear red cloaks into battle. They wore these on marches and used them for sleeping in.
2. They did not wear Corinthian style helmets. The Pylos style helmet is probably the most likely, but without plumes.
3. I personally think that they kept the traditional aspis shield of the old hoplite, as well as the old phalanx fighting-style.

As for their body armour, I couldn't be at all certain, though I'd guess that they wore leather cuirasses. I don't believe as some do that they had ditched armour entirely, as I can't see any reason (or evidence) for this.

[Spitful]

It wouldnt have made any sense to drop body armour, there were simply not enough of them for them ot lose people to wounds that could have been stopped by armour of reasonable price.

Cant you put in a spartan model and skin as a place holder until you get someone of your own onto it? It would add to the players experience and it would take about 2 minutes to do.

[QwertyMIDX]

Why is everyone so obbessed with the Spartans? This is 272 their hour in the sun was LONG gone. Their trouncing at the hands of the Thebans, the loss of Messinia, and the rising level of professionalism in armed forces had left them with little for their 5th century shine.

[jerby]

it's just the fact there's no EB-like game/mod for 500BC....

teh spartans indeed fascinate me, and I hope there's at least 1 spartiatae in the game. Even tough i Know they won't be juggernauts...

as a historical Question: were spartans aroudn this time still heavy-infantry? or have they adopted a bit of iphikrates? do they were linothorax? or a breast-plate?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Why is everyone so obbessed with the Spartans? This is 272 their hour in the sun was LONG gone. Their trouncing at the hands of the Thebans, the loss of Messinia, and the rising level of professionalism in armed forces had left them with little for their 5th century shine.
C'mon - let the KH-lovers dream of getting their one really elite unit - even if it will cost them an arm and a leg with upkeep. At least it's something to build towards :laugh4:

[QwertyMIDX]

I'm fine with you people having them, I even want to use them at some point. I just don't understand why everyone is so fixated on them. These aren't the guys from Thermopylae :help:.

[normanng]

Wasn't the once mighty Sparta turned into a quasi tourist spot after they were conquered by the romans? For upper class romans to come see and meet the people of Sparta and their way of life. The only thing I heard about Spartans in battle during this time was when they were used by the Romans against the barbarians (Visigoths, no?) during like 2nd century AD.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Lots going on in Hellenistic and Roman Sparta. Paul Cartledge and Anthony Spawforth have a wonderful and thick paperback out on it recently. Take a look. :grin:

[Marinakis]

Wasn't the once mighty Sparta turned into a quasi tourist spot after they were conquered by the romans? For upper class romans to come see and meet the people of Sparta and their way of life. The only thing I heard about Spartans in battle during this time was when they were used by the Romans against the barbarians (Visigoths, no?) during like 2nd century AD.

why does someone always say that... this happens to every great people who have fallen from power. Exactly how Rome, Egypt and the rest of Greece are tourist traps today.

So i ask again, why does everyone say that... :inquisitive:

Sorry, i know, im an idiot

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, it's true actually. You just need to look at, say, Pausanias' Guide to Greece to see that. However, at this time (272 BC), the Spartans could still field Spartiate hoplites, though naturally they weren't nearly as feared as they once were. Even so, in the interests of historical accuracy, you have to have Spartiatai in the mod. Plus, it makes the Koinon quite special.

[Dayve]

Yeah Koinon Hellenon need something... When they start Sparta can't build anything but skirmishers... Not even the good peltasts, the cheap poor ones... It amazed me that Sparta couldn't produce even those cheap nasty taxeis hoplitai, yet when i captured Chalkis they had a third level barracks... Something isn't right methinks.

[Kampfduck]

so maybe its an idea, to make an old style hoplite with a hoplon (spartasymbol on it ofcourse), no red cloak, heavier army and a newer
type of helmet, maybe the one thye use in rtr, the conehead type (forgott
the name ;) )

and:
still as furious as in the older days, but only a very few to build, and very expensive.
it would fit fine in the game., because everybody knows that spartans didnt like changes,
so they would com up with an old style unit.

[QwertyMIDX]

Well, it's true actually. You just need to look at, say, Pausanias' Guide to Greece to see that. However, at this time (272 BC), the Spartans could still field Spartiate hoplites, though naturally they weren't nearly as feared as they once were. Even so, in the interests of historical accuracy, you have to have Spartiatai in the mod. Plus, it makes the Koinon quite special.

Obviously they'll go in eventually, but they are definatly a polish unit, not a pressing concern.

[Dayve]

No they're not... They're Greek. :2thumbsup:

[O'ETAIPOS]

Yeah Koinon Hellenon need something... When they start Sparta can't build anything but skirmishers... Not even the good peltasts, the cheap poor ones... It amazed me that Sparta couldn't produce even those cheap nasty taxeis hoplitai, yet when i captured Chalkis they had a third level barracks... Something isn't right methinks.

Yeah ... It is unfair ... as KH you start with II level barraks in Atens ... as Epeiros you have one in Ambrakia ... Mak's have only I level ones in theire cities~:mecry: they are unable to train even simplest pikeman if not asault athens imediately after the start. Only those pesant hoplitai ~:mecry:

[Elthore]

I believe the spatans adopted the linothorax, however after it had been around in the rest of the hellenes for some time.

also, the extended greek mod has a very nice spartan skin wearing a linothorax...winkwink

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah ... It is unfair ... as KH you start with II level barraks in Atens ...
At least in regard to the MIC buildings, Sparta will be bumped up a level and Athens bumped down a level in the next patch.

[infierno]

if you wanna give us some eyecandy...

http://img.freeforumzone.it/upload/481406_av_greek3%5B1%5D.jpg

[Kampfduck]

plz no, not another wrong timeperiod skin, they didnt wear the red cloak
in battle, and the helmet is hugely outdated.

[infierno]

what about 2 skins? 1 historical accuarate, then a bonus skien for thos spartan lovers this could be at the botton of the what-to-do list

[Ergion]

Could someone post an image or a link to see a "correct" spartan?

[MeroFromVero]

...then a bonus skien for thos spartan lovers this could be at the botton of the what-to-do list

Or, more likely, done by somebody/anybody else as a mini-mod.

[QwertyMIDX]

what about 2 skins? 1 historical accuarate, then a bonus skien for thos spartan lovers this could be at the botton of the what-to-do list

The minute EB supplies a 5th century Spartan skin I'm leaving and I'd bet at least half the team would too.

[Dayve]

Wouldn't blame you Qwerty... I'm not fascinated with them but i'd love to play a Greek campaign when they are finished because at the moment it's a bit boring to play as the Greeks... You have to wait 50 turns before you can build anything interesting. :no:

Also i'd love to see a mod made of EB that focused on the Greek peninsula around the time when Sparte was the most feared and influential of all the Greek states... Although it would have to be made by people absolutely dedicated fanatical history realism lovers like the EB guys... Not something unrealistic...

[Kampfduck]

hmm, look at modern armies, our the ones in the past, armies always addopting newer/better equipment/ideas, maybe invented by themself our
already used by other states (also enemies), i can give numerous
examples.

we all now its difficult to find information about the spartan army (whats
left of it) in the hellenistic age, but look at the rest of greece in that
period, the old style hopite was almost gone, most of the time lighter
equipment was used by infantr troops in favor of mobility. Ofcourse sparta
had still an own army at that time, but not like the one in 4th bc.

I think, to come close, you have to look to the other greek states, this is
easier, because we have more information about there soldiers types,
i think the spartans would have addopted some ideas, maybe not the newer
shield types, because like said before, the hoplon was almost an sacred item.

As a symbol on there shield they would still use the spartan symbol, there
armour would be the same as used by the other states, maybe the chainmail,
or still a bronze kurass.

How these soldiers were used, is more difficult, i dont know. Maybe they would
addopted the iphikrates type of hoplite, or would stick on a more older type,
more heavily armed hoplite, like in the old days.

For sure no red cloak! these were never worn in battle, a red cloak would be
unrealistic! About the helmet, because sparta was by these time not the most
rich state ;) , i would give them a more common inexpensive type of helmet.

The best way to show a spartan unit in eb, in my opinion, would be a unit made of
a mixture, of old an newer ideas.

[Dayve]

But would i be right in thinking that the Spartans of the EB time were still brought up in the old fashioned way, i mean being trained to fight from, 7 years old was it? Up until it's time for war...? If that is the case, then i think they would still have the fighting spirit of the Spartans 200 years before them, and i also believe they would still be as ferrocious(sp), but maybe not exactly feared and dreaded by the enemy anymore... And also much less in numbers... And although i know nothing about their armour, i propose that this unit should be the Gaestae of the Greek faction, identical in number to all other Greek phalanx units and with an upkeep cost of 4 figures... Who agrees!?

[normanng]

There is this documentary series 'The Spartans' somewhere out there. It should be on Netflix on a 2-disc DVD. it gives a good account on the lives of the Spartans on and off the battlefield - maybe it can be of some help. From what I remember from the documentary, I think there was a time when Sparta actually withered away to nothing... it had to be rebuilt. The Spartans were good but there was always never enough of them. I guess their lifestyle was not conducive to population growth.

[Divinus Arma]

I can understand the passion about Spartans. There exists such a wealth of lore, legend, and truth all mixed together that is a recipe for fascination. The lifestyle and sacrifice of this culture is very interesting. Sure, their relevance in the time is limited, but the history behind them is still powerful.


As has already been mentioned, Spartans will be added to EB.:2thumbsup:

As was also already mentioned, Spartans were a low priority for efficiency reasons. Because we are hurting in the modeler/skinner department, our talent works on units that offer the most bang for the buck first. That is why common lower units are done, while elites are still "in the wings". There are exceptions of course, and that seems to stem from some very impassioned modeler getting work done on something he personally loves. That, IMHO is to our benefit.


If you would like to assist us in getting a Spartan unit in the game faster, there a number of ways to do this:

(1) Create it yourself. We have historians that can give you the information you need. All you need is the creative modeling ability. And if you do, please join our team as we will be happy to have you.

or probably more likely (2): Find a currently existing spartan unit that has been created elsewhere and post a picture of it in this thread. I recommend imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us/)for hosting. Then explain why you think this unit should be included. Once you think you have a good spartan unit from another mod, we have to negotiate with the creator to see if they are willing to less us use their creation. We won't steal it. So even if you find a historically accurate Spartan, the author may not even want to share it.

Remember, EB is about historical accuracy first and foremost. No fantasy units, no guesswork. The pride and joy of EB is to create the most realistic representation of the time period as possible. That is also what makes EB so much fun!

:2thumbsup:

[Kampfduck]

the problem with the spartan info that you see on the net is,
that its always information about sparta in the better ages,
around 500-400bc.

We all know how a hoplite looks in 500-400 bc, with there big
corinthian helmets, but ive looked on numerous sites for more
info about there army in the hellenistic era,
untill now i couldnt find anything :no:

So please, all the gamers out there who like to play with the
greeks and spartans, pls help us with our quest, and look for
information. :)

This is something i found on a internetsite, it say something about
the size of the army of Sparta around 250 bc:

Frequent wars in Greece increased the population of slaves, causing unemployment, increasing mercenaries, and leading to more wars. The poet Leonidas of Tarentum indicated that one had to wear weapons to live in Sparta, for the city had gone weapons-crazy. The number of citizens in Sparta was reduced to 700 hoplites; many of the remaining landowners were women, and wealth was concentrated in the hundred who owned more than their own lots.


Returning to Sparta to institute the reforms, Cleomenes had his soldiers murder the ephors; he exiled eighty citizens and removed the ephors' seats, except for the one he sat in to conduct business. Cleomenes gave his property to the state and assigned a lot to each of those he had exiled. He made citizens of 4,000 men who lived around Sparta, arming and training them as hoplites with traditional Spartan discipline.


Spartan power grew, but Aratus still refused to accept Cleomenes' leadership of the Achaean league. Instead in 224 BC Aratus turned to the Macedonian regent for young Philip V, Antigonus Doson, who formed an alliance not only with the Achaean league but also with Thessaly, Epirus, Acarnania, Boeotia, Euboea, and Phocis. Doson was elected commander-in-chief (hegemon), took Mantinea and gave it to the Achaean league, which killed or sold into slavery all its people in revenge for the Mantineans having murdered the Achaean garrison. Cleomenes freed 6,000 Helots, who could pay five minae each, raising 500 talents and equipping 2,000 of them for his phalanx.

Theres lots of information to be found on this site, also about all sort of events in this era.



http://www.san.beck.org/EC23-Hellenistic.html

[Kampfduck]

another feature for a spartan unit should/could be the long hair, wich still was
very common by spartan soldiers at that time, this also would let them look different from the other units.

Also ive put a pic in of a type of helmet that was used in the later greek period, its an thracien model of helmet, used a lot within the greek states at this period. Maybe we could use it for the spartan unit.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/images/avatars/gallery/Graeculi/pezet.jpg

[Kampfduck]

after visiting a forum about greek warfare,
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewforum.php?f=19&sid=f52ca601c4e4612f515d82d354fa8298

and asking a few questions about the spartan military, ive got an
answer from somebody that very usefull,


As Sparta is concerned Leuktra was bat but Mantinea was catastrofic.
The decimation of the citizen body and the eroding of the social fabric messed things baddly.
Debt, poverty and indiference abolished Lycourgos laws.
Until the attempt of Agis and Cleomenes Sparta had virtualy sank in misery and oblivion.
These guys increased the citizen body restablished Lycurgus laws and reformed the Army as pike armed infantry with peltast support.
Mercenary Cretan archers and cavalry were added.
It ended tragicaly because Agis was too trusting and Cleomenies too much of a demagogue and soundrel.

Navis who tried as alast chance reduced the pikemen brought more horsemen and upgraded the peltast with armor THORAKITAE.
He was a good leader but he was murdered by treason and that was the end.
Possibly spartan Thorakitae fought at LEFKOPETRA at 146 B.C and were given by the Roamns to the Aetolians who promptly murdered them.
Kind regards

another one,


Kampfduck wrote:
There is a lot of talking about sparta and how there hoplites would look in this timeframe, we know that most of the greek states would have addopted iphikrates hoplite, and that the heavy armed hoplites more and more dissepeared from the battlefield.

Actually, we don't know that. A couple of late sources (Diodoros and Nepos) mention Iphikrates' reform and imply that such re-armed troops became popular, but there is remarkably little evidence that the Iphikratean equipment was ever widely adopted, and plenty of depictions and descriptions of the "traditional" hoplite gear with the big Argive shield well after Iphikrates' day.

For one take on the significance of Iphikrates' "reform", have a look at http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MilHist.html - thought-provoking at the very least.

Kampfduck wrote:
but what about the spartan army at this period?

The Spartan kings Agis IV and Kleomenes III changed the equipment of at least part of the Spartan army from the old hoplite gear to the Macedonian-style pike-phalanx in the late 3rd century. The main sources for this are Plutarch's Lives of Agis and Kleomenes - translations online at http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/index.html - and Book II of Polybios' Histories, which describes the defeat of Kleomenes' "reformed" Spartan army by the Macedonians at Sellasia in 222 BC - see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/home.html

Under Roman rule, Spartan troops fought for Pompey at Pharsalus and for Octavian at Philippi, but I don't think there's any evidence on how they were equipped.

As for appearance, Plutarch writes that Agis insisted on wearing the traditional Spartan cloak, though implying that not many Spartans still did. Pausanias says that the traditional Spartan clothing and hairstyle were still worn in the Roman period, but it is possible that this was a revival of "tradition", rather than that the Spartan soldiers had worn the same style of clothing throughout the Hellenistic period.

A good modern introduction is Paul Cartledge and Antony Spawforth, Hellenistic and Roman Sparta (Routledge, 2nd edition 2002).

another answer,


Spartans in Pharsalus could either be thorakitae peltast or even Legionaries.
Given the situation of most Greek cities at the time I wouldn´t be surprized if they were psiloi.
Kind regards

very usefull information i think :)

[O'ETAIPOS]

distinctive type of spartan helmet at the end of Peloponesian war was pilos - the one used in vanilla RTW, exomis tunic - short (half tight long), without sleeves, joined on the arms, usualy right arm wasn't joined to give more movment ability. It is still over hundred years before game start thugh.

In game period exomis was still used, and pilos may also be relevant.
If armour was used then linothorax probably.

[Kampfduck]

which programm do your guys use, for making a new model unit, or a new skin?
time is on my side these days and because im a quick learner, i could try to make a skin, based on the little information that i know have. Like said at least a small part of the spartan army was "reformed" as a macedonian style of pikefighter, maybe we can do something with this information.

[QwertyMIDX]

You need 3DMax or GMax for the model and photoshop for the skin.

[Kampfduck]

ive got 3d max8, but is there somewhere a good turetorial how to work with rtw models?

[QwertyMIDX]

Not sure, check the scriptiorum.

[Spitful]

Do you have a description or picture of what they should look like for me?

[Kampfduck]

hi, some sources are saying that part of the spartan army was reformed
and gain more power under the kings Agis and Cleomenes, before them Sparta was one big misery.

PLutarch writes about this (timeperiod 250-220 bc), and theres suggested
that part of the army where armed like the Macedonian pikemen,
and its also talking about heavy hoplites and traditional big phalanxes.

This would suggest that sparta used more then one type of hoplite, the lighter armed pikeman and the traditional heavy
armed hoplite..

if i had to choose, i would go for the heavy hoplite, with the
traditional heavy armor and hoplon shield and with a newer type of helmet.

Plutarch also writes that the spartan still had the traditional long hairstyle,
so give them long curreled black hair beneath the helmet, and plz no red cloak, Agis tried to bring them back as traditionall gear, but he says that
most men wouldnt, and for sure they didnt wear them in battle.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, sparta gets to recruit any of the other KH units, so there will be a lot of choices for them, but only one "Spartans" unit which does have the traditional armor, hoplon shield, probably pilos helmet, and overhand spear style.

[jerby]

traditional armor meaning a breastplate?

[hellenes]

Well, sparta gets to recruit any of the other KH units, so there will be a lot of choices for them, but only one "Spartans" unit which does have the traditional armor, hoplon shield, probably pilos helmet, and overhand spear style.

Will it be bronze "bell" armour? Or linen?
And on a sidenote:
Shield=ΑΣΠΙΣ-ASPIS
Weapon=ΟΠΛΟ-OPLO

Hellenes

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I hope I'll be forgiven if I only use the dictionary-entry meaning for hoplon. There's no need to go looking for a war in every instance of a word.

[hellenes]

I hope I'll be forgiven if I only use the dictionary-entry meaning for hoplon. There's no need to go looking for a war in every instance of a word.

No war :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: ....
Its just a common western misconception about the fact that "OPLO" didint mean shield but it was and is the word for weapons in general...

Hellenes

[Kampfduck]

i think the army should be not the linnen, because we are talking about heavy armed hoplites, this should be the bronze breast plates, maybe with inderneath
some red clothes, to give a touch of the red cloack,that they didnt wearing in battle.

greetz. :book:

[O'ETAIPOS]

This is popular misconception - muscle cuirases that we know are thin as papier (almost :) ) it is not heavy medieval plate or even "bell" type from archaic period. Muscle ones were either parade or had to be strenghted with thick leather.

[jerby]

your meaning the total armor was thin? or teh bronze upper 'sheet' was thin?

I could imagine a breast of bronze only to be very ineffective....imagine teh blunt trauma...and off course it woudl be piercable, no matter how thick...

additional layers of compessed linnen/leather/other stuff was crucial for surviving...i guess

[O'ETAIPOS]

Yes, I mean bronze part (only that survived)

[SpartanPhalanx]

Yes, I mean bronze part (only that survived)
Quick question

Any chance that Koinon Hellenon could have a type of Senate?

Despite the face that it's an Alliance would a group of "Ephors" be appropriate? Or perhaps members of a league akin to that which Sparta held with Corinth?

Any other ideas?

and is it even a posibility?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Koinon means 'alliance'; not 'federation'. So no, a US style Congress would seem unlikely. That said who knows what socio-politic features EB2 will bring?

[SpartanPhalanx]

Koinon means 'alliance'; not 'federation'. So no, a US style Congress would seem unlikely. That said who knows what socio-politic features EB2 will bring?
But given this is an ahistorical alliance surely we can come up with an adequete ahistorical solution to this problem.

Do you have any ideas?

[Spartan198]

The only thing I heard about Spartans in battle during this time was when they were used by the Romans against the barbarians (Visigoths, no?) during like 2nd century AD.
As much as I'd like to believe that Spartan phalanxes drove off raiding Visigoths after Valens' defeat at Adrianople in AD 378, I have yet to find any kind of proof that it's anything more than Roman propaganda.

Tempting to believe, though...

[Ludens]

But given this is an ahistorical alliance surely we can come up with an adequete ahistorical solution to this problem.
Methinks you should read the KH faction description (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_koinon-hellenon_history.html). The KH is based on the Cremonidean Alliance between Athens and Sparta. This alliance was not formed in 272 BC yet, but obviously it could not have been made overnight, and given it was bankrolled by the Ptolemeans the involvement of Rhodos was a safe bet. The name Koinon Hellenon comes from the decree announcing the alliance itself.

Anyway, alliances between Greek cities are very historical, however an overruling senate is not.

BTW, why did you necro this old thread to post a question that is only marginally related?

[Vorian]

BTW, why did you necro this old thread to post a question that is only marginally related?


I had the same question

[Ibrahim]

But given this is an ahistorical alliance surely we can come up with an adequete ahistorical solution to this problem.

Do you have any ideas?
the one in EB1? no it isn't. thaat's the chremonidean(I misspelled it) alliance. it was wooped in a short time though, at the hands of Antigonos Gonatas.

[Flying Pig]

The appearance of the Spartan in this period is generally disputed. But we can be fairly sure of the following, I think:

1. They did not wear red cloaks into battle. They wore these on marches and used them for sleeping in.
2. They did not wear Corinthian style helmets. The Pylos style helmet is probably the most likely, but without plumes.
3. I personally think that they kept the traditional aspis shield of the old hoplite, as well as the old phalanx fighting-style.

As for their body armour, I couldn't be at all certain, though I'd guess that they wore leather cuirasses. I don't believe as some do that they had ditched armour entirely, as I can't see any reason (or evidence) for this.

I reckon they would have still had their old curaisses as the local peroikoi had a long tradition of these. Spartans seem almost immune to reform.

[Zarax]

If anyone is really passionated about Sparta they'd rather try Hic est Sparta, the newest XGM submod.
BTW, rather than being shameless advertising this is just a way to divert rather hopeless requests from the EB team.

[SpartanPhalanx]

Methinks you should read the KH faction description (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_koinon-hellenon_history.html). The KH is based on the Cremonidean Alliance between Athens and Sparta. This alliance was not formed in 272 BC yet, but obviously it could not have been made overnight, and given it was bankrolled by the Ptolemeans the involvement of Rhodos was a safe bet. The name Koinon Hellenon comes from the decree announcing the alliance itself.

Anyway, alliances between Greek cities are very historical, however an overruling senate is not.

BTW, why did you necro this old thread to post a question that is only marginally related?
I only would have started a thread with exactly the same title and I thought I would have been stoned for being a n00b and not using the search function.

BTW Sorry my history is shit especially comparatively to you guys. I didn't mean to be rude regarding the 'ahistorical' nature on Koinon Hellenon I had just never heard of it. My bad.

[Spartan198]

If anyone is really passionated about Sparta they'd rather try Hic est Sparta, the newest XGM submod.
Just mentioning this, but last I looked, there won't be a beta release until sometime after summer.

[Dutchhoplite]

In Ancient warfare magazine #6 is a good description of the battle of Sellasia (222 BC) between the Spartans and Macedonians/ Achaeans, it includes some interesting artwork.

[Flying Pig]

Hic est Sparta? αυτό είναι Σπαρτε surely? or Auto Einai Sparte? Why use latin about greeks?

[Zarax]

Hic est Sparta? αυτό είναι Σπαρτε surely? or Auto Einai Sparte? Why use latin about greeks?


I think mostly because they couldn't find anybody to translate for them... It looks like a quite nice XGM submod though.