The AI IS NOT given 30,000 per turn

[khelvan]

Whoever made up this rumor has to stop now. The AI is given 30,000 on the FIRST turn only.

Stop repeating this.

[Dooz]

No one coordinates insanity quite like Khelvan.

[MeroFromVero]

Hi,

I'm the guy who started the rumor (see my post here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1023829&postcount=7)), so I guess I should apologize if I have caused some annoyance or ill will. This was not my intent. Please allow me to explain why I posted what I posted; you may find this interesting.

You probably already know this, but I sure didn't, and I sort of stumbled across it while playing this mod. I opened up RomeShell to toggle fow on for a bit, and when I went to press shift (for the underscore), I accidentally smashed the up button instead. This caused a number of what looked like cheat codes to scroll through RomeShell; I assumed these were operations that the script peformed during the AI's turn. What particularly caught my eye was "add_money romans_julii, 30000" and about 3-6 similar commands. I just kind of assumed that the script added a whole buttload of money to AI factions unders certain conditions, and thought nothing more of it (other than to post that post that I linked above, since it kind of came up).

Then I read this thread, and I thought something along the lines of "No way. I counted the zeros, man." Now, I know that you said...


Stop repeating this.

...but I am going to be disobedient and repeat it just one more time, because I have convinced myself that I am correct. I would ordinarily keep it to myself, since I don't want to antagonize anybody, but it was my thinking that if you believe that the script does not add 30K to AI factions past the first turn, it is probably also your belief that it should not do this. I therefore have decided to bring it to your attention that it does in fact seem do this, in case it needs correcting.

Now, I didn't want to come on and just post something like "I remeber that it did it once, so you're wrong!", so I loaded a couple of my prior savegames. I have been saving every turn and keeping them for precisely such occasions.

So, I opened up my latest save game, I loaded the script, and I hit end turn. When it got to my turn again, I opened RomeShell and pressed the up button, to see what commands were there. Again, I'm assuming these were commands processed by the script during the AI's turn, but I might be wrong. The commands, in the order they appeared, in the summer of year 256BC, with the add_money commands bolded:

add_money slave, 40000
add_population Nikomedia 80
add_population Sinope 50
add_population Amaseia 80
add_money romans_julii, 30000
add_money scythia, 30000
season summer

I then hit end turn again, but encountered a CTD. So I loaded an earlier save game at the fall of 259BC, loaded the script, and hit end turn. At the beginning of my next turn, I opened RomeShell and examined the commands, which appeared in the following order:

season winter
date -259
add_money slave, 40000
add_money dacia, 30000
add_money britons, 30000
add_money germans, 30000
add_money gauls, 30000
add_population Sinope 50
add_population Amaseia 80

I then closed RomeShell and hit end turn, and opened it again on the following turn (spring 258BC).

season summer
date -258
add_population Sarmiszegethusa 80
add_population Asaak 50
add_population Kirtan 80
add_population Sucum-Murgi 80
add_population Ani-Kamah 80
add_population Baikor 80
add_population Maryab 80
add_population Sabata 80

So I closed RomeShell, hit end turn, and opened again at the beginning of my next turn, summer, 258BC.

season summer
date -258
add_money slave, 40000
add_population Chalkis 80
add_population Epidamnos 80
add_population Taras 80
add_money thrace, 30000
add_population Gader 80
add_population Numantia 80

Closed RomeShell, ended turn, opened RomeShell.

season summer
date -258
add_population Massalia 80
add_money slave, 40000
add_population Epidamnos 80
add_population Taras 80
add_population Gader 80
add_population Numantia 80
add_population Oxtraca 80

I then loaded an earlier save game, in the spring of 261BC. I loaded the script and hit end turn. On the beginning of my next turn, I opened RomeShell and scrolled up, observing the following commands:

season summer
date -261
add_money slave, 40000
add_money gauls, 30000
add_money egypt, 30000
create_building "Hekarompylos" type1lvl2
set_building_health "Hekarompylos" government_type4 0
set_building_health "Hekarompylos" government_type3 0
set_building_health "Hekarompylos" government_type2 0

Closed RomeShell, ended the turn, opened RomeShell at the beginning of my next turn.

season summer
date -261
add_money slave, 40000
create_building "Gawjam_Rugoz" type3
set_building_health "Gawjam_Rugoz" government_type4 0
set_building_health "Gawjam_Rugoz" government_type3 0
set_building_health "Gawjam_Rugoz" government_type2 0
set_building_health "Gawjam_Rugoz" government_type1 0
add_money parthia, 275

Closed RomeShell, ended turn, opened RomeShell at the beginning of my next turn.

season winter
date -261
add_money slave, 40000
add_money thrace, 30000
create_building "Kotais" type1lvl2
set_building_health "Kotais" government_type4 0
set_building_health "Kotais" government_type3 0
set_building_health "Kotais" government_type2 0
set_building_health "Kotais" government_type1 0

I stopped there. In summary, of the 8 turns I checked, 7 contained add_money commands, only one of which added under 30000.

Again, I've posted this because you seemed to think that this did not ever occur, which I guessed makes this a bug. I can e-mail some of my saves to anybody that wants to look at them, but I think that it happens enough that anybody following the procedures I performed above should be able to observe similar results in their own game (provided, of course, they are using the current publicly available build).

If, after reading this, you still think I should not have posted this, or that I have leaked some secrets or something similar, I do sincerely apologize, and you may (of course) delete my post.

[NightStar]

That explains how the AI is able to field such insane armies when the player is struggling with handful of units. If the A.I is using the same economy as the player then it would never be able to field so many units without getting bankrupt.

[Dayve]

So some factions are indeed being given 30,000 minai each turn or under certain circumstances? Makes sense really... When i took control of Makedonia yesterday to try and correct a CTD i couldn't get past i was amazed to see that they had over 500,000 minai in their treasury even though they didn't own that many cities... Although they did own most of the lower Greek peninsula but they had large armies and were at war with the Getai to the north and the Getai were huge controlling at least 3 times more land than Makedonia, so i fail to see how Makedonia could have this much cash whilst not having too many cities as well as having a large army and being at war with a very powerful faction...

[O_Stratigos]

That is strange though, because when I took over A. Seleukeia in 252 BC using PerfectSpy, they were about 12500 minai in dept.. but then again maybe they got the 30000 in the next turn..hmmm.. ~:confused:

MFV can you please explain how can I find and use the RomeShell "thingy" :inquisitive: tnx :balloon2:

O Stratigos :bow:

[MeroFromVero]

MFV can you please explain how can I find and use the RomeShell "thingy" :inquisitive: tnx :balloon2:

While you're on the campaign map, hit the button below your escape key (it's the tilde (~) button on most keyboards, but don't hold shift when you press it). This is how you use toggle_fow and other cheat codes.

[khelvan]

Sorry, I was incorrect in stating they only get it on the first turn. They get it occasionally, reducing the average amount they get to much, much less than 30,000 per turn. This will change dramatically in the next patch.

[GMT]

Sorry, I was incorrect in stating they only get it on the first turn. They get it occasionally, reducing the average amount they get to much, much less than 30,000 per turn. This will change dramatically in the next patch.

:gah2: Why??

At least now the AI is a challenge and can put up a real fight. :duel:


GMT :bow:

[QwertyMIDX]

We're going to try and help their cash flow in a more subtle manner. :idea2:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Cool, the mnai addition is powering up the AI, but makes it feel like cheating to get any AI faction as protectorate. I hope you can fix it, but if not there's no big deal. The allied state/client kingdom govt building IMO simulates protectorates/tributaries better than the RTW protectorate function.

[Sartaq]

Cool, the mnai addition is powering up the AI, but makes it feel like cheating to get any AI faction as protectorate.

Yes, that's the only thing I'm concerned about. The cash-laden AI's are easy money at that point.

[galathas]

It would be cool if blockading ports would have an actual effect on ai cash. It is such a nice subtle method of warfare.

I have also noticed something else wich has to do with cash.

I have quite a few assassins running aroud and damaging all sorts of buildings but the ai often does not repair. Same with walls that were damaged

What about the ai repairing buildings? Does this actually happen? Do they need to do this or can they use damaged buildings? And does it actually cost the ai money to repair?

.

it would be cool if someone from EB could answer this.

[Eucarionte]

:gah2: Why??

At least now the AI is a challenge and can put up a real fight. :duel:


GMT :bow:


Which eliminate all realism from the game only for more difficulty. I doubt EB wants it as it is.

It´s all about the way you play, after all :book:

Btw, the mining income has to be somewhat fixed, 200 per turn is just to low. Basically considering the initial investment is 4000, the new economic pattern (upkeep and training costs), and the strategical importance of the mines in antiquity. I can come to a financial conclusion about this and start a thread, but not now since I don´t have a good calculator available :sweatdrop:

[Geoffrey S]

Good to hear it's going to be improved. It's one of the few imbalances bugging me right now, making it less fun to fight enemies with too much cash for their efforts.

[Ano2]

Relax guys if this goes to 1.5/6 we will actually have a challenging A.I.. :2thumbsup:

[The_Mark]

Just to clear this out, the AI receives an extra 30000 mnai at the start of the campaign and 30000 at the start of their turn when the faction's treasury is below 20000. That's all. And we know, it's prolly a bit overboard in some circumstances.

[Chester]

It does help. If you're struggling on rome with VH/VH conditions, it's not entirely due to the money adding, it's more to do with the fact that you're fighting armies with more experience.

Roman's don't get experience bonuses, it's a bug, so your armies are weak and need to be built up, but the problem is the enemy amry are already built up.

[Jebus]

Roman's don't get experience bonuses, it's a bug, so your armies are weak and need to be built up, but the problem is the enemy amry are already built up.

Odd, I am playing as Rome and have had several three-gold-chevron armies.


Also, if you are REALLY so desperately annoyed at the AI recieving free money each turn, it is very easy to change in the EBBS script - either by removing those bonusses for the AI or giving yourself the same bonusses.

I wouldn't reccomend it, though - I tried it in a fresh Makedon campaign and it made everything way too easy.

[Elthanas84]

When I start playing this game yesterday with Romans. I attacked Epeiros in Kalabria immediately. The AI respons in sending his diplomat bribing Cannea and Capua withing two turns. I wondered if this has to do something with the game setting. (I play always on VH/VH). I like challenging games, but loosing two cities in the first four turns this way topped everything I have seen =)
This is not challinging any more, it is just unfair!!!
I stopped the game because I wanted to know the AI could do such things. It seems I have found my answer.

[Conqueror]

While the EB economies are largely abstractions, the game's athmosphere would still be greatly helped if the relative wealth of factions was to make sense. The Ptolemaioi should be wealthier than the Sweboz, regardless of what faction happens to be player-controlled. Certainly the AI should receive enough money that it doesn't go bankrupt because of it's own stupidity. However, if there's a good reason for a major economic crisis (such as having just lost all it's wealthiest provinces and having all ports blockaded, cities besieged) it shouldn't be negated by free money.

[QwertyMIDX]

Btw, the mining income has to be somewhat fixed, 200 per turn is just to low. Basically considering the initial investment is 4000, the new economic pattern (upkeep and training costs), and the strategical importance of the mines in antiquity. I can come to a financial conclusion about this and start a thread, but not now since I don´t have a good calculator available :sweatdrop:


Check this thread please: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=59381


While the EB economies are largely abstractions, the game's athmosphere would still be greatly helped if the relative wealth of factions was to make sense. The Ptolemaioi should be wealthier than the Sweboz, regardless of what faction happens to be player-controlled. Certainly the AI should receive enough money that it doesn't go bankrupt because of it's own stupidity. However, if there's a good reason for a major economic crisis (such as having just lost all it's wealthiest provinces and having all ports blockaded, cities besieged) it shouldn't be negated by free money.


Just wait until our farming income script is ready to roll, you'll see some serious changes to the way economics work.

[Conqueror]

Looking forward to that :bow:

[QwertyMIDX]

Me too.

[Dooz]

Mmmmm, farming income script..... *drool*

[ScionTheWorm]

Maybe the topic title should be changed to

The AI is not given 30,000 EVERY turn - just occasionally

That script sounds great, this is just getting better and better

[Dooz]

Maybe the topic title should be changed to

The AI is not given 30,000 EVERY turn - just occasionally

That script sounds great, this is just getting better and better

Heh, I was going to suggest a topic title change as well. Misleading!

[fallen851]

Which eliminate all realism from the game only for more difficulty.



How realistic does (should?) EB need to be? I mean you wouldn't play a first person shooter where when you got shot, you took 30 minute laying on the ground motionless from a stomach wound, only to be shipped to hospital somewhere and spend the next 3 months of the game sitting there. Sure it would be more realistic, but it wouldn't be fun...

Real life obviously isn't that fun, that is why we play video games in the first place.

The game simply isn't very challenging in its vanilla form, I say do all you can to make the game as hard as possible, but still make it so the player can win. Winning is better than losing, thus I play to win, and a challenging win always leaves the best taste.

[Eucarionte]

Sure. That´s the same reasoning to play VH to give the AI +7 or so to attack so the AI peasants can smash your praetorian cohorts. Now that´s a challenging game. But I won´t play it for the same reason I don´t want so much extra money for the AI.

As I said, it´s all about the way you play. In vanilla VH the AI gets 10.000 denarii per turn and pops full stacks endlessly. That would suit you, for instance. But if I play EB in Hard I don´t want the AI getting -even occasionally- 30.000 extra. However 30.000 extra only at the beginning is one thing I can agree.

Playing and expanding historically, and setting iron rules is enough of a challenge for me, and real fun. No need for superhuman AI soldiers or absurdly rich factions. It just takes away all sense of realism, at least from me. And the example you gave me has nothing to do with that, but of course your opinion is as valid as mine.

[LorDBulA]

I guess that you wont like the direction EB is going or more precise where i want it to go.
I admit that there is problem with adding AI money but i think that its necessary.
We have few options how to do it. We just have to find the best way.

And we have real problem with protectorates. I wish that we could just turn them off.

Unfortunately we are trying to mod game. We are very limited.
Sometimes IMHO its necessary to use unrealistic mean to get more realistic result in return. Its a game afther all and not real life.
I dont like it also, but i think its necessary. Afther all i prefer to get more realistic game then use more realistic means and get less realistic game.
And if you can wipe out other faction easily it is VERY unrealistic.

And for the record i dont like VH battle difficulty. Its just to much. I play on High battle difficulty VH camp.

[Dooz]

Isn't VH campaign a bit too much as well LorDBulA? I prefer H battles myself, but assume VH campaign might be taking it a bit too far. The rebels are an unecessary nuisance as it is, and when they pop up more frequently and siege, it just seems too.... blah.... no?

[fallen851]

No need for superhuman AI.... And the example you gave me has nothing to do with that, but of course your opinion is as valid as mine.

Hey if the Doom boss didn't have more life and essentially be a superhuman as compared to the player, the game wouldn't have been fun... Winning against all odds, it doesn't get any better.

I'd say it has a lot to with this example. I'd rather face a cooked up, superhuman (supercomputer rather?) AI.