Princepes

[Arman616]

I noticed that the princepes only use their spears, yet they have a short sword at their disposal. Is there a way, or will there be a way, to allow they to switch between spear and sword? I know there is the javelin to factor in too. I would very much like the ability for such units to be able to switch between sword and spear, like hoplites. I don't know if the triarii do this or not.

I didn't post this in the bug section because i don't know if its a bug or not.
Thx.

[econ21]

Triarii definitely switch between sword and spear. I'm finding them a little hard to use (the early phalanx ones) because sometimes cavalry get among them, causing them to draw swords and cut them up. They seem to do best against enemy heavy infantry. Principes seem more robust against cavalry - they have no phalanx formation that can be disrupted - perhaps because they don't seem to automatically draw swords?

[Slider6977]

I noticed that the princepes only use their spears, yet they have a short sword at their disposal. Is there a way, or will there be a way, to allow they to switch between spear and sword? I know there is the javelin to factor in too. I would very much like the ability for such units to be able to switch between sword and spear, like hoplites. I don't know if the triarii do this or not.

I didn't post this in the bug section because i don't know if its a bug or not.
Thx.

No its not a bug. The TW engine, as it stands now, only allows for two weapon types to be used by a single unit. For infantry units such as Roman hastati, principes and similiar units, their first weapon is their pilum, and the second would be either a sword, spear, etc. The engine simply does not allow more than this. So for phalanx units, it is different, their have their spear for when in formation, and a sword for when on walls or out of formation.

So they can only use two types of weapons. Principes throw their pilum and then only have their spears. It would be cool if you could have three or more weapons. Some units historically had a bow, a mace, a sword, a lance, etc., all equiped for battle. I would personally like to see this, if only for the reason you brought up - that principes and similar units that use spears, but also have swords, could use both when the right situation calls for it. But it is simply not possible.

[Arman616]

No its not a bug. The TW engine, as it stands now, only allows for two weapon types to be used by a single unit. For infantry units such as Roman hastati, principes and similiar units, their first weapon is their pilum, and the second would be either a sword, spear, etc. The engine simply does not allow more than this. So for phalanx units, it is different, their have their spear for when in formation, and a sword for when on walls or out of formation.

So they can only use two types of weapons. Principes throw their pilum and then only have their spears. It would be cool if you could have three or more weapons. Some units historically had a bow, a mace, a sword, a lance, etc., all equiped for battle. I would personally like to see this, if only for the reason you brought up - that principes and similar units that use spears, but also have swords, could use both when the right situation calls for it. But it is simply not possible.

But it is possible, with units that have only 2 weapons. The triarii don't throw javelins, so they can only switch between spear and sword, right? But then again, I saw the bactrian body guard units (the ones with the big round hoplon shield and the macedonian style helmets and red capes) use non-phalanx spears and swords, but it seemed that they arbitrarily switched between the two. I saw another celtic unit do this as well.

What determines when when non-phalanx units switch between spear and sword? Can we control it?

[econ21]

What determines when when non-phalanx units switch between spear and sword? Can we control it?

Doesn't ALT+attack make the unit use their secondary weapon?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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It sure makes missiles and missile-ables (pila throwers) melee :yes: but I'm not sure of a global secondary weapon switcher. :rolleyes4:
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[Slider6977]

What determines when when non-phalanx units switch between spear and sword? Can we control it?

Well, yes I have read of units with a pilum or other attack switching spear and sword in melee with virtually no control over which to use when. I'm thinking this has something to do with a conflict between weapon animation (from the models folders) and the actual weapons the unit are given in the actual animations. However I did not think this was possible as usually this conflict would cause an instant CTD. So I don't really know whats going on. But the fact remains that it is not possible to control what they use when. There is some type of conflict there.

[QwertyMIDX]

Using alt+attacks makes a unit use it's secondary weapon.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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You learn something new everyday... :stupido:
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[jebes]

OMG, if you have never done that with your cavalry, you are missing out. Well, if you never put cavalry into pitched battle, then maybe not, but their killing power just about doubles.

[Arman616]

Using alt+attacks makes a unit use it's secondary weapon.

This only works with cavaerly or units who have javelins available.

The question is how to get regular non-phalanx spear units with no javelins to switch between spear and the secondary weapon.

Can a dev give us a heads up on this?

[Turin]

Oh I can answer this one LOL

In Pre 1.3 versions of RTW, a non-phalanx spear unit can only use a melee secondary weapon without causing a CTD if and only if the skeleton assigned to the seconday weapon is the same skeleton.

This is an extremely odd bug. It was fixed in 1.3 though. Now non-phalanx spearmen (i.e. late Triarii) will have no problem pulling out a sword to deal with infantry.

Also, spear units get a variable "anti-cavalry-bonus". So you can make the spear's basic attack very weak, but give it a huge anti-cav-bonus. Then you give it a secondary sword with a high base attack and no bonus. The AI (God bless the 1.5 AI) is smart enough to use the proper weapon automatically without you having to use Alt-attack!

So yeah, it all lies in porting to 1.5

[Arman616]

Oh I can answer this one LOL

In Pre 1.3 versions of RTW, a non-phalanx spear unit can only use a melee secondary weapon without causing a CTD if and only if the skeleton assigned to the seconday weapon is the same skeleton.

This is an extremely odd bug. It was fixed in 1.3 though. Now non-phalanx spearmen (i.e. late Triarii) will have no problem pulling out a sword to deal with infantry.

Also, spear units get a variable "anti-cavalry-bonus". So you can make the spear's basic attack very weak, but give it a huge anti-cav-bonus. Then you give it a secondary sword with a high base attack and no bonus. The AI (God bless the 1.5 AI) is smart enough to use the proper weapon automatically without you having to use Alt-attack!

So yeah, it all lies in porting to 1.5

Excellent! Let's not make the spear damage THAT low though, but lower than swords, for sure.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Can I jump in here? If you want to be historically accurate then spears should have a fairly high attack. A friend told me about a set of Lorica Segmentata he excavated which had a whole in one of the plates from a spear, it did happen. Historically the problem with spears were that they were unwieldly and easy to grab, so if you miss and your enemy has a free hand he can grab your spear and then you have to either get it back off him or draw your sword.

The Camillian Princeps weren't armed with spears because they were a bad thing and it wasn't just for fighting cavalry either.

[QwertyMIDX]

That is true, but I think they were just suggesting making spears (at least underhand ones) less effective anti-infantry weapons than swords, which is generally accurate. As long as we don't take it too far that is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well maybe a moderate bonus for swords, is it possible to change the frequency of attack for different weapons? Because you can strike faster with a sword.

[QwertyMIDX]

It's all in the animations.

[Cheexsta]

IIRC, this is a RTW1.2 bug when infantry units with spears as primary weapons can't switch to their secondary swords. It works for cavalry and missiles, but it doesn't seem to work for infantry.

I've heard that it's fixed in 1.5/6, but I haven't played it enough to have seen it myself.

Edit: damn the Org and its crazy forum layout! I missed half of the thread's posts...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Its all in the animations? Does that mean by making the animation faster you can make them cut faster you can only make it look like they do?

[QwertyMIDX]

The animation of an attack has effect of how the attack works in game.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well you learn something new every day.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Deja vu! :stunned:
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[Dux Corvanus]

A friend told me about a set of Lorica Segmentata he excavated which had a whole in one of the plates from a spear, it did happen.

Where did he find it? Iron armor, and specially a full lorica segmentata, is a very valuable archaeological item. 99 times out of 100, the thin, flexible iron plates have completely fallen to corrosion, and all that is left are the tin parts (hinges, buckles and so). A piece that has, besides, combat damage -and probably a cause of death for his owner- is an unique item. Such a piece deserves an exhaustive research and should be a visitor-attractor for any museum.

I'd really like to know more about that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I can't remember sorry. It was several years ago and he only mentioned it in passing. What I do remember was it was a Gallic spear that did for the guy. Actually it may have been someone he knew; as I say, several years ago.

His point was that the plates were only 0.7mm thick on the chest and given a choice he's rather have chainmail. He had a theory that only certain cohorts were equipped with Sorrica Segmentata, as "shock troops" as the armour really isn't that great in a lot of ways. It takes a minute to put on if two Legionaries do each other up and provides no protection to the groin or legs at all. However it was light, he thought maybe the Second Cohort, being the youngest and fittest troops would wear it and be first into battle, like Hastartii.