The blatan hypocrisy of our favorite south american socilaist

[Strike For The South]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/13/venezuela.chavez.spain.reut/index.html

So when he blocks or infunces our our trade agreements he is defending the world from the fat greed captilists sucking the south american tit dry but when the tables have turned he says were imprieaists and these are under handed tactics. Welcome to power poltics. Everyone meet Hugo Chavez bull-shit artist

[Just A Girl]

I know some 1 just like that. Lol

[Tribesman]

The blatant hypocricy of a nation that criticises Venezuela for not doing enough to secure its borders and monitor sea traffic in the war on drugs , that then blocks the purchase of maritime patrol aircraft .
Welcome to power poltics.
Bull shit on all sides .

[Reenk Roink]

The blatant hypocricy of a nation that criticises Venezuela for not doing enough to secure its borders and monitor sea traffic in the war on drugs , that then blocks the purchase of maritime patrol aircraft .
Welcome to power poltics.
Bull shit on all sides .

Touche

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The blatant hypocricy of a nation that criticises Venezuela for not doing enough to secure its borders and monitor sea traffic in the war on drugs , that then blocks the purchase of maritime patrol aircraft .


As if they were given them they would use them in the war on drugs LOL.

[Ice]

As if they were given them they would use them in the war on drugs LOL.

:idea2:

[rory_20_uk]

Newsflash:

Politician = Liar... :jawdrop:

~:smoking:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yup, Chavez is a hypocrite. Not very surprising, though. And no, Tirbesman, he doesn't need military hardware with high grade US tech to secure his borders. He's got all the resources he needs.

And before any chavez apologists come, I'm going to repost something (slightly edited) I posted in a chavez thread before about how he's a dictator.



He may have been elected freely enough, but his actions after that are those of someone striving to become a dictator. Even the recall election was full of irregularities and restrictions on voting monitering organizations.

Tell me, Chavez supporters, why would he change the constitution to give himself greater power if he wasn't trying to become a dictator?
Why would he outlaw free speech and political dissent?
Why would he pack the supreme court to ensure they never disagreed with him?
Why would he pass laws enabling him to shut down any newspaper or news station that he didn't like?

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200505070444
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18041

These are the actions of a dicator, to be sure. So why do you insist on saying he isn't a growing tyrant? Why would anyone who truly respected the democratic progress and abided by its rules do any one of the above things?

Or are you just going to ignore this all, because you can't argue against it?


Crazed Rabbit

[Reenk Roink]

Eh, he gave some free oil to people in the US...

That's what distinguishes that crazy ol' dictator from Bush...

[Tribesman]

And no, Tirbesman, he doesn't need military hardware with high grade US tech to secure his borders. He's got all the resources he needs.

What high grade US tech ? It is a European made maritime patrol aircraft working off a European satellite system . Which strangely enough your coastguard is purchasing to do the same job , I would have thought a superpower would have all the resources it needs .
It has some US made components .
As for securing its borders , it may have escaped your notice but it has a terrorist group with 1/2 a million fighters that is very heavily involved in the drugs trade just across the border , your government is asking Venezuela to do more to secure its border with Columbia .
So do you ever listen to anything your government says or do you just go off on a mindless rant without any thought to the issue at hand ?

Oh and BTW , just as you seem to have vast gaps in your knowledge , the program to upgrade the Maritime surveilance and Search and Rescue capabilities of the Air-Force and Naval Air Arm from its existing CASA , Lockheed and Cessna Airplanes and its Sikorsky , Bell and Augusta/Bell helicopters predates Chavez rise to power .
I suppose they didn't need to upgrade them back then either:dizzy2:

I wonder what they will choose to replace their aging fleet of F-5s and what they will do about the F-16 if they cannot get spares .
But of course a South American country doesn't need jet fighters unless the US is the one that is selling them eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

Eh, he gave some free oil to people in the US...

That's what distinguishes that crazy ol' dictator from Bush...
I dont know if you were joking or not but Chavez (like anyother polotician) could care less about the unfortuantes. He saw a way to stick to Bush and did end of story. He is no more of a savior of the poeple than Bush

[Reenk Roink]

I dont know if you were joking or not

Sorta both. I certainly don't like Chavez, but if you asked me if I like Bush more or thought he was a better person, then :no:.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What high grade US tech ? It is a European made maritime patrol aircraft working off a European satellite system . Which strangely enough your coastguard is purchasing to do the same job , I would have thought a superpower would have all the resources it needs. It has some US made components .

The second paragraph of the article:

Washington said on Thursday it had refused an export license for Spain to sell 12 transport and maritime surveillance planes containing U.S. technology to Venezuela.
I've highlighted it so the important part can sear itself into your skull.


As for securing its borders , it may have escaped your notice but it has a terrorist group with 1/2 a million fighters that is very heavily involved in the drugs trade just across the border , your government is asking Venezuela to do more to secure its border with Columbia .
So do you ever listen to anything your government says or do you just go off on a mindless rant without any thought to the issue at hand ?

Oh and BTW , just as you seem to have vast gaps in your knowledge , the program to upgrade the Maritime surveilance and Search and Rescue capabilities of the Air-Force and Naval Air Arm from its existing CASA , Lockheed and Cessna Airplanes and its Sikorsky , Bell and Augusta/Bell helicopters predates Chavez rise to power .
I suppose they didn't need to upgrade them back then either:dizzy2:

Vast gaps in my knowledge, eh? Are you aware of the tens of thousands of AKs Chavez has bought from Russia? He's got the army for it, he just doesn't want to secure his border.

And what the heck does your blabering about upgrade programs have to do with anything?


I wonder what they will choose to replace their aging fleet of F-5s and what they will do about the F-16 if they cannot get spares .
But of course a South American country doesn't need jet fighters unless the US is the one that is selling them eh ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

No, the issue is not about who is selling what to Chavez, but what is being sold. Basic Reading Comprehension 101.

See if you can come up with some logical arguments next time instead of innanities that have nothing to do with the situation at hand- Chavez's hypocritical criticism of the US for not letting him get his hands on our tech, while he constantly interferes with US efforts to help neighboring countries.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Vast gaps in my knowledge, eh? Are you aware of the tens of thousands of AKs Chavez has bought from Russia? He's got the army for it, he just doesn't want to secure his border.

Ah so he has got the army for the guns , now he just needs the guns :dizzy2:
Would those be the 100,000 rifles to add to the M16s he already has . Oh and he doesn't want them for defense then , so he is planning to invade someone then ????
Invade who exactly ? Are you working on some crazy conspiracy theory ?

The second paragraph of the article:

Yes read the second paragraph , that can mean anything from screens for the onboard computers to ballbearings for the wheels .:dizzy2:

And what the heck does your blabering about upgrade programs have to do with anything?

Well it might just have something to do with it being a long planned program that predates Chavez .:idea2:

No, the issue is not about who is selling what to Chavez, but what is being sold. Basic Reading Comprehension 101.

And what is being sold then , some Maritime reconnaisance planes to replace the outdated ones , some light transports to replace the C-130s as they are more suitable , some training aircraft to augment the Tucanos !!!!!! Big deal . Oh and some assault rifles that are more proven as reliable in the climate in which they are going to be used .

See if you can come up with some logical arguments next time instead of innanities that have nothing to do with the situation at hand- Chavez's hypocritical criticism of the US for not letting him get his hands on our tech, while he constantly interferes with US efforts to help neighboring countries.

What technology are you on about ???? American defense contractors are negotiating to utilise the European technology in these planes !!!!!
And in case you hadn't noticed there have been several recent elections in South American countries and their governments are telling your country to stop interfering . Is that the help you are on about ?

[Soulforged]

So let me see if I get this right: Chavez uses political influence to stop the ALCA and other trade agreements with the USA and USA actually blocks the trade...How is that even comparable?


Or are you just going to ignore this all, because you can't argue against it?No need to ignore everything. Why do you think that a dictatorship will be worst than a procedimental democracy. Elected candidates only obey to their wishes and the wishes of the supporters of their campaings (corporations, other politicians, particulars with political interest). There's no difference. If you say that the actions show that he's becoming one (actually those actions are pretty much the same that Menem, neoliberalist and friend of USA government in Clinton's times, took when he was in charge, but in addition to the courts he also managed the Congress), then it could be, but the interesting question should be: Why do you think that it's degenerative? Why do you think that will hurt the situation even more than it's on Venezuela? And finally why do you think it concerns you? Now that I think better don't answer the final question...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ah so he has got the army for the guns , now he just needs the guns :dizzy2:
Would those be the 100,000 rifles to add to the M16s he already has . Oh and he doesn't want them for defense then , so he is planning to invade someone then ????
Invade who exactly ? Are you working on some crazy conspiracy theory ?

What are you smoking?


Yes read the second paragraph , that can mean anything from screens for the onboard computers to ballbearings for the wheels .:dizzy2:

It can, but it doesn't.


Well it might just have something to do with it being a long planned program that predates Chavez .:idea2:
So? That's irrelevant.


And what is being sold then , some Maritime reconnaisance planes to replace the outdated ones , some light transports to replace the C-130s as they are more suitable , some training aircraft to augment the Tucanos !!!!!! Big deal . Oh and some assault rifles that are more proven as reliable in the climate in which they are going to be used .

Actually, it is a 'big deal' when it involves the US technology, as we don't want that to fall into the hands of our enemies. Duh.


What technology are you on about ????
Does your brain sort of go in and out of understanding what conversation you're in? Read the article.


American defense contractors are negotiating to utilise the European technology in these planes !!!!!
So?

And in case you hadn't noticed there have been several recent elections in South American countries and their governments are telling your country to stop interfering . Is that the help you are on about ?
Once again, so what? Let them say it all they want, we aren't going to sit back and let important tech. get traded to enemies.

You are, as usual, dodging the entire argument-Chavez's hypocrisy-and throwing out a bunch of red herrings.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

It can, but it doesn't.

Really , then what exactly is this technology ?

Does your brain sort of go in and out of understanding what conversation you're in? Read the article.

Ah I see , you are basing your position on a news article that is very scant when it comes to details :oops:

So? That's irrelevant.

How so ? A country impliments a long standing completely normal defense procurement and you suddenly get your knickers in a twist:dizzy2:

Actually, it is a 'big deal' when it involves the US technology, as we don't want that to fall into the hands of our enemies. Duh.

Once again , what technology ?

You are, as usual, dodging the entire argument-Chavez's hypocrisy
Errrrrr..... oh look Post #3 Bull shit on all sides .
Are you having trouble with reading and comprehension ?

[Don Corleone]

Unless I'm mistaken, the specific systems the Defense Department is objecting to disseminating to Venezuela is an anti-radar jamming pod. This unit has both offensive and defensive uses, so it's intended use is a wash.

It doesn't really matter. I don't care if the technology was the espresso machine in the back. The United States has a right to tell Spain that if they sell our technology to Venezuela, they can forget about ever getting anything from us again. If they feel that strongly about arming Chavez, they should drop out of NATO, remove all US designed hardware & software, and have at it.

Frankly, I cannot believe you are taking this position Tribesman. I'll grant you we don't usually see eye to eye, but this is pretty far fetched, even for you. The United States not only has the right, it has the responsibility to see to it that it's technology does not fall into the hands of third parties that would use the technology agains us. If the Germans decided to sell the blueprints to the M1A1 Abrahms, would you contend that the US must sit by and twiddle it's thumbs while they do it? At what point does the US have the right to control the flow of it's own technology?

[Tribesman]

Oh an anti Radar device , now would that be like the US technology that Venezuela aleady has on the F-16s anti Radar gear ?

The United States has a right to tell Spain that if they sell our technology to Venezuela, they can forget about ever getting anything from us again.
Yeah but then Spain would refuse to sell your coastguarsd the aircraft that it needs , which is exactly the same aircraft that the Venezuelans say thay need .

Frankly, I cannot believe you are taking this position Tribesman. I'll grant you we don't usually see eye to eye, but this is pretty far fetched, even for you.
My position is quite simple Don , for the US to repeatedly complain that Venezuela is not doing enough to stop Columbian drug runners passing through its territorial waters , and then try to deny Venezuela access to maritime patrol aircraft is a great example of hypocritical bull shit .

Though to be honest when I saw the title of this thread I had expected it to be about coffee and sugar . But I suppose real problems in Venezuela don't get much coverage in the US media so they come up with this six month old crap instead .:juggle2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

How so ? A country impliments a long standing completely normal defense procurement and you suddenly get your knickers in a twist

Perhaps you should study the difference between saying and doing. See, for examples, Iran's President and Hitler.


Once again , what technology ?

Irrelevant. Or see Don's post.


Errrrrr..... oh look Post #3 Bull shit on all sides .
Are you having trouble with reading and comprehension ?

I meant since then, as you have been shooting red herrings out like a flak gun.


Yeah but then Spain would refuse to sell your coastguarsd the aircraft that it needs , which is exactly the same aircraft that the Venezuelans say thay need .

Except we don't have a problem with us buying our own tech. And as you can see, Spain decided not to piss us off, and didn't sell to Chavez.


and then try to deny Venezuela access to maritime patrol aircraft is a great example of hypocritical bull shit .

We aren't denying them patrol craft, just planes with our tech. They are free to buy planes that doesn't have our tech in it. Such planes would probably be pretty similar to ours. And that is where your 'argument' falls apart.

Crazed Rabbit

[GoreBag]

I meant since then, as you have been shooting red herrings out like a flak gun.

Flak guns don't fire red herrings.

[Slyspy]

LOL! But both of those involved in this argument do. And in a pointlessly aggressive manner as well.

[Tribesman]

And as you can see, Spain decided not to piss us off, and didn't sell to Chavez.

Ummmm .....Spain protested about American interference in its commerce and is selling the planes to Chavez with the US components replaced by european ones .

Perhaps you should study the difference between saying and doing. See, for examples, Iran's President and Hitler.

???????

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ummmm .....Spain protested about American interference in its commerce and is selling the planes to Chavez with the US components replaced by european ones .

My point exactly. They didn't sell what we did not want them to sell.


???????

A country saying they are going to do something (Hitler:conquer the world Iran:wipe out Israel) is much different from that country actually doing it.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

My point exactly. They didn't sell what we did not want them to sell.

The irony is that new package is more technically advanced than the one that was denied , which means that as the US have also changed their order to get the new European technology they are going to have exactly the same aircraft as Venezuela .
You should have let them get the old US junk instead :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

A country saying they are going to do something (Hitler:conquer the world Iran:wipe out Israel) is much different from that country actually doing it.


And what exactly has Chavez said he is going to do that you are so worried about ?

[Soulforged]

And what exactly has Chavez said he is going to do that you are so worried about ?Killing Pharisees maybe?:laugh4:. This whole discussion is laughable, taking into a account that all this practices involving both, hipocresy and the use of political and economic influence to change currents, are day to day afairs of politicians.
There is two points to consider to outsiders here (pardon the expression):1- Chavez never menaced with ending agreement with any country of Latin America if they treated with USA (with the exception of Uruguay recently and Mexico, but that was consensual between the most powerful of Latin Americans country), instead USA used menace plain and straight. 2- If any of you believe that all the anti-american behavior and the common reaction against neo liberalism in general comes from the actions of Chavez and his speeches, then you're wrong. That feeling is old and lasting believe me.

[Tribesman]

This whole discussion is laughable,
OK Soulforged , something more serious about Chavez , what is your position on the coffee problem ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

And what exactly has Chavez said he is going to do that you are so worried about ?

You don't seem to be able to follow the debate very well.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

You don't seem to be able to follow the debate very well.
What you mean that laughable attempt in post #8 and the two propoganda links in it ?

You are worried about that bull ?
BTW would you like that post picked apart . It isn't hard as you have made many basic errors . Must be all the Propogana eh ?
Try this for a start Even the recall election was full of irregularities and restrictions on voting monitering organizations.

and who did the investigations and monitoring agencies find were carrying out illegal and anti-democratic actions ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I mean come on you must have read some of the reports , your government issued some , an ex-President of yours issued some , the OAS issued some , the EU issued some , so pray tell dear Rabbit , who got the majority of the blame over irregularities and attempts at vote rigging ?:oops:

Edit to add , is that civil enough Ser Clegane ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You don't seem to be able to follow the debate very well.
What you mean that laughable attempt in post #8 and the two propoganda links in it ?

No, I mean you don't seem to connect the fact that the US did nothing when Venezuela just said they were going to upgrade-like the world is doing nothing when Iran says Israel should be wiped off the map. Actually doing something gets a stronger reaction. You seemed to indicate in previous posts that since Venezuela had planned to upgrade their planes, that made it alright:
(
Oh and BTW , just as you seem to have vast gaps in your knowledge , the program to upgrade the Maritime surveilance and Search and Rescue capabilities of the Air-Force and Naval Air Arm from its existing CASA , Lockheed and Cessna Airplanes and its Sikorsky , Bell and Augusta/Bell helicopters predates Chavez rise to power .
I suppose they didn't need to upgrade them back then either)
Or something like that. It's not entirely comprehensible.
I'll try to be clearer for you next time.


You are worried about that bull ?
BTW would you like that post picked apart . It isn't hard as you have made many basic errors . Must be all the Propogana eh ?
Try this for a start Even the recall election was full of irregularities and restrictions on voting monitering organizations.

and who did the investigations and monitoring agencies find were carrying out illegal and anti-democratic actions ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I mean come on you must have read some of the reports , your government issued some , an ex-President of yours issued some , the OAS issued some , the EU issued some , so pray tell dear Rabbit , who got the majority of the blame over irregularities and attempts at vote rigging ?:oops:

Edit to add , is that civil enough Ser Clegane ?

Oh, I'd love it if you attempted to answer the questions in my post. I have a funny premonition I will be disappointed.

Funny you mention the EU. They didn't send anyone to observe the elections. (http://usinfo.state.gov/wh/Archive/2004/Sep/14-430675.html)

The EU said it regrets that it cannot deploy an observation mission to the referendum in Venezuela.
The 25-nation community of European nations said that "unfortunately, it has not been possible to secure with the Venezuelan electoral authorities the conditions to carry out observation in line" with the EU's "standard methodology used in all countries where EU election observation missions are deployed."


I.e. The elections were so rigged the EU found it useless to participate. Both the EU and OAS reports found many instances of unethical conduct-soldiers in polling areas-that would seem to indicate Chavez was the problem.

Here's a gem from the EU report:

The legal framework that governs the electoral process must be harmonized with the constitutional provisions on the elections.

I.e. They have to make the elections constitutional, which they were not.

Jimmy Carter is a America-hating idiot who just wanted to spite Bush. He's tried to undermine other presidents, such as Bush 41 by writing world leaders and telling them to not participate in ousting Saddam from Kuwait.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

No, I mean you don't seem to connect the fact that the US did nothing when Venezuela just said they were going to upgrade
What do you mean ?
In February last year America told Russia that they shouldn't sell guns and helicopters to Venezuela . Russia said bugger off (though they are still negotiating with Russia ,China and Europe for replacements for the F-5s and F-16s) . edit BTW EADS have recently tested their upgrade package on Dutch F-16s , I wonder if they will offer that as an alternative to the purchase of new fighters by Venezuela .
In September America told the European Defense group that they couldn't sell the ships and planes to Venezuela , Europe said bugger off apart from about the 12 planes that they have renegotiated over to replace components with more expensive , more modern european components .
This month they have told Brazil they cannot sell Venezuela the trainer aircraft , I wonder what the Brazilian government will say .

Who is America to say what other countries can and cannot sell , if they want a worldwide arms embargo then they have to apply to get one in place , there is absolutely no chance of that though as there is no reason for one to be in place , the only reason the US can put forward is that they don't like the government , and that ain't gonna fly .

You seemed to indicate in previous posts that since Venezuela had planned to upgrade their planes, that made it alright:

Normal defense procurements are just that , normal . Programs are in place for many years (sometimes even decades) before they are due to come into place . It just so happens that these particular programs have come into effect as America is in a panic that the coup failed . That says more about Americas paranoia than anything else .

Here's a gem from the EU report:
.e. They have to make the elections constitutional, which they were not.

Yes they raise many questions about the fraudulant signatures that brought about the recall election and question the constitutionality of a recall election bought about due to a flawed process and voter manipulation ..... by the opposition .
They also question the legality of the $23million of foriegn money to "help" the political process going exclusively to the opposition .
To that you can add their criticism of the media for its unconstitutional bias in reporting and electioneering , but as almost all of the media is owned by the opposition that isn't really a surprise is it , as they had already tried to unconstitutionally change the government through force of arms , until the people told them to bugger off .
so pray tell dear Rabbit , who got the majority of the blame over irregularities and attempts at vote rigging ?Hmmmmm?????:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'd love it if you attempted to answer the questions in my post. I have a funny premonition I will be disappointed.

Do you mean post #8 ?
Tell me, Chavez supporters, why would he change the constitution to give himself greater power if he wasn't trying to become a dictator?
Why would he outlaw free speech and political dissent?
Why would he pack the supreme court to ensure they never disagreed with him?
Why would he pass laws enabling him to shut down any newspaper or news station that he didn't like?

Do you really want answers ? you won't like them as apart from one they make your position look really silly .
So Rabbit , would you really like some answers ?

Edit to add to the first piece

[Redleg]

Who is America to say what other countries can and cannot sell , if they want a worldwide arms embargo then they have to apply to get one in place , there is absolutely no chance of that though as there is no reason for one to be in place , the only reason the US can put forward is that they don't like the government , and that ain't gonna fly .


Under the license to manafactur, depending upon how it is worded a government can impose restrictions on the manafacturing of the licensed equipment and to whom the equimpent under license can be sold to.

THe United States as a nation can ask other governments not to sell to other nations based upon economic and political means depending upon the desires of the nation. The nations asked can either ignore the suggestion, or comply, depending upon the political and economic goodwill between the two nations.

Does it have any real impact is what you should be asking, not that the United States can not say what is sold and not sold. I know several other countries that play this exact same game - its just not as visible as the United States and Venezuela.

[Tribesman]

:laugh4: Under the license to manafactur, depending upon how it is worded a government can impose restrictions on the manafacturing of the licensed equipment and to whom the equimpent under license can be sold to.


I know that Red which is why it was such a joke when they asked the Russians not to sell , there is no licensing issue in that is there .
I am surprised that they didn't object to some of EADS other sales .
The strange thing is they objected to the Spanish government , the government only has a 5% holding in the Europewide consortium (now worldwide)
Since EADS has bought outright several US companies those companies technology is not subject to license as they are solely owned by the European consortium and it can manufacture and export it wherever it likes .

Spain initially complained that this protest was going to harm the Spanish workforce , it turns out that the result has benefitted the workforce and is creating extra revenue by relying on the new European systems instead , which America has now ordered .

Now wouldn't it be funny if CASA refused the American application for a license to produce these aircraft and EADS refused the license to produce the systems . That way Europe would benefit even more as America would then have to import them instead of building them under license .
Or they could restart the whole procurement process again and rely on domestic contractors , but they really want that European technology don't they , if Venezuela can have it then surely America can have it too :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Redleg]

:laugh4: Under the license to manafactur, depending upon how it is worded a government can impose restrictions on the manafacturing of the licensed equipment and to whom the equimpent under license can be sold to.


I know that Red which is why it was such a joke when they asked the Russians not to sell , there is no licensing issue in that is there .

Pay close attention to what was actually stated because you have not completely read what was written. The United States can ask - Russia or any other nation for that matter does not have to comply.

Sometimes in your attempt to be caustic you end up looking foolish, this response is one of those times, since its obvious that you just disregarded the second paragraph, in your attempt to score points.



I am surprised that they didn't object to some of EADS other sales .

Who says there were not objections or behind the scene negotations.



The strange thing is they objected to the Spanish government , the government only has a 5% holding in the Europewide consortium (now worldwide)
Since EADS has bought outright several US companies those companies technology is not subject to license as they are solely owned by the European consortium and it can manufacture and export it wherever it likes .


Yes indeed - but that also does not prevent the United States from objecting to those sales, does not prevent the United States from emplacing economic embrago's against that companies goods, and a host of other economic and political actions if the United States government so choses. That is the nature of international trade and politics.



Spain initially complained that this protest was going to harm the Spanish workforce , it turns out that the result has benefitted the workforce and is creating extra revenue by relying on the new European systems instead , which America has now ordered .

Nothing wrong with buying a better product now is there?



Now wouldn't it be funny if CASA refused the American application for a license to produce these aircraft and EADS refused the license to produce the systems . That way Europe would benefit even more as America would then have to import them instead of building them under license .
Or they could restart the whole procurement process again and rely on domestic contractors , but they really want that European technology don't they , if Venezuela can have it then surely America can have it too :laugh4: :laugh4:

Again its politics and economics. A country can chose to do what it desires passed upon treaties and the concept of goodwill between nations. Your statements here only support that conclusion.

[Redleg]

double post

[Tribesman]

Sometimes in your attempt to be caustic you end up looking foolish, this response is one of those times, since its obvious that you just disregarded the second paragraph, in your attempt to score points.


They asked Russia to turn down a sale and the chance to earn some brownie points with an expanding oil exporting economy , and expected Putin to say "oh OK then since you asked so nicely" .:no:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Russia doesn't need to get in with oil exporting countries, does it?

[Tribesman]

Russia doesn't need to get in with oil exporting countries, does it?
Of course it does , oil exports = lots of money to spend .
Arms sales = follow up sales on parts , maintainance and replacements .

For another example of Russia cosying up to an oil exporter look at Iran .

[Redleg]

Sometimes in your attempt to be caustic you end up looking foolish, this response is one of those times, since its obvious that you just disregarded the second paragraph, in your attempt to score points.


They asked Russia to turn down a sale and the chance to earn some brownie points with an expanding oil exporting economy , and expected Putin to say "oh OK then since you asked so nicely" .:no:

Nations have the ability to ask each other to do certain things, normally at some cost either political or economic trade in kind. Nothing at all prevents the United States from asking, and nothing prevents any nation that is asked to either comply or disregard depending on the interested of the nation involved.

Your not recovering very well from your attempt to be caustic with me concerning my point, in fact you continue to actually support what I stated. :dizzy2:

[Tribesman]

Your not recovering very well from your attempt to be caustic with me concerning my point, in fact you continue to actually support what I stated.
Red do you understand at all what I wrote ?
I know that Red which is why it was such a joke when they asked the Russians not to sell , there is no licensing issue in that is there .

It was a joke that they even bothered to ask the Russians Red , they had no leverage at all and there was absolutely no chance that the Russians would comply .

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Russia doesn't need to get in with oil exporting countries, does it?
Of course it does , oil exports = lots of money to spend .
Arms sales = follow up sales on parts , maintainance and replacements .

For another example of Russia cosying up to an oil exporter look at Iran .


So that would be a no.

It does not need to cosy up to oil exporters,
it's just beneficial to have somebody to export to == your argument.

Edit: now then, if being an importer of Russian goods were synonymous with being an oil producer then it would make perfect sense but it isn't so it doesn't.

I was just asking because the only real NEED for foreign-oil-producer-buddy-buddiness would be if Russia did not have substantial energy reserves of its own.

[Redleg]

Your not recovering very well from your attempt to be caustic with me concerning my point, in fact you continue to actually support what I stated.
Red do you understand at all what I wrote ?
I know that Red which is why it was such a joke when they asked the Russians not to sell , there is no licensing issue in that is there .

It was a joke that they even bothered to ask the Russians Red , they had no leverage at all and there was absolutely no chance that the Russians would comply .

Oh I understand it, I wonder if you understand what I wrote initially?

Nations have the ability to ask each requests of each other, just like nations have the right to refuse to do the request. Everything you have stated so far supports that premise, except you chose to be caustic with your replies.

[KukriKhan]

Oh yeah. Venezuela. I remember...

1958. Nixon. Demonstration. Military alerted, Marines hit the ropes, NORAD goes 'red'.

2005. Bush, Jr., Georgia (the country, not the state). Grenade.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/11/world/main1202544.shtml
US silent.

Times sure have changed.

For better, I think.