British day

[English assassin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4611682.stm

Chancellor Gordon Brown thinks we are not British enough, and that what the country really needs is a day to celebrate being British.

Leaving aside for now the fact that its him and all his little followers on the left who have been making huge political capital for decades out of trying to portray British as a dirty word, this is the most damned unBritish thing I have heard of in a long time. One of the most British things about being British is not making a big fuss about it. Or anyhting else for that matter. (Its just not polite to remind all the poor foreigners that they do not have the good luck to be British themselves.)

What's more he would bottle it anyway, and a British day organised by the labour party would be all chicken tikka filled cornish pasties and alcohol free real ale to avoid upsetting muslims. All the celebration that is required is a slightly misty eye and an almost imperceptable tremble of the upper lip whilst listening to Elgars Pomp and Circumstance.

I wouild also like to point out that this is the exact equivalent of John Major's speech about beer and village greens and old maids cycling to church, and a sure sign that Gordo is finished.

[Scurvy]

hmm i woudn't mind the day off though....

[Idaho]

I agree EA's last sentence, but the build up to that conclusion was entirely crack-addled.

[KukriKhan]

What would a British Day be tied to? Magna Carta Day? Most National Days seem to be tied to an historic assertion of self-determination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Magna Carta's really not that British (well, except for the involvement of Welsh royalty on the side of Norman -oh, wait there were Breton nobles probably involved too so more British there- nobility).

I'd guess it would have to be something like one of the acts of union.
I'm sure that would go down like a lead balloon in plenty of quarters though. Especially if it was the act from just over 200 years ago.

[English assassin]

I'm now enjoying the image of Idaho prancing around in Union Jack boxer shorts scarfing down a chicken tikka cornish pasty and grroving to some Bollywood beats. Though I reckon he knows my tongue was at least partly in cheek.

I can't for the life of me think of a day that could be "British day" as opposed to an English day or a Welsh day or whatever. The 1707 Act of Union would be the only one that made much sense consitutionally, though it would just be an excuse for a load of whinging IMHO. Otherwise, err, the anniversary of universal sufferage? The first album released by the Beatles? Gordo's birthday?

[Scurvy]

hmm yeah, its a difficult one....

[Duke Malcolm]

A Union Day would be perfect -- next year would be the best time to bring it in, being the 300th anniversary of the Union.

The Queen's Birthday could be expanded from little a parade on Horse Guard's... Or Victoria Day could have something...

If they do not go so far as to celebrate Britain and our culture, then at least try and stop British from being bad...

[BDC]

A British Day would be fun. We could all invade France or annex India, something nice and patriotic like that.

[matteus the inbred]

A British Day would be fun. We could all invade France

i think that's the best idea i've heard all day...!

seriously though, i agree with EA. Being British is about being quietly proud of who you are and where you're from, without making up rubbish like Major (who, to be fair, probably had the speech written for him...) or waving a flag about and singing and being a bit overenthusiastic. i like the fact that sporting achievements tend to bring out the pride more than anything else...

[Duke Malcolm]

Yes, but not pride across Britain. If a Scot wins something, there is a lot of moaning up here that it is called a British win, there is pressure to make a Scottish Olympic team, as well...

[matteus the inbred]

don't see why not, if you want one! pride in being Welsh, Irish or Scottish is important to people, probably more so than being 'British'. i prefer to call myself English, i guess. Britain is something of an artificial creation, just with a lot of history behind it.
British Day...it's probably a waste of time trying to create it without a good excuse, another Dome.

[Ianofsmeg16]

don't see why not, if you want one! pride in being Welsh, Irish or Scottish is important to people, probably more so than being 'British'. i prefer to call myself English, i guess. Britain is something of an artificial creation, just with a lot of history behind it.
British Day...it's probably a waste of time trying to create it without a good excuse, another Dome.
Britain is not the artificial creation, Wales, Scotland and England are the technical 'artificial creations'. The word britian was being used waaaaay before England (Angleland) Wales (meaning land of the Wealas) and scotland (Dal Raida/Alba) all of the countries in the british Isles today are Saxon inventions, except i think Scotland. Britain, however, was being used by the romans and earlier :2thumbsup:

[matteus the inbred]

Britain is not the artificial creation

i meant Britain as in the post-mediaeval political union of its various states including the oddity that is Northern Ireland, rather than the geographical (and, as you correctly point out, racial) entity that was pre-Roman/sub-Roman Britain.

my Norman ancestors were instrumental in bringing about the earliest unification processes of modern Britain, maybe British day should be on October 14th!*







*Battle of Hastings, don'cherknow

[Ianofsmeg16]

i meant Britain as in the post-mediaeval political union of its various states including the oddity that is Northern Ireland, rather than the geographical (and, as you correctly point out, racial) entity that was pre-Roman/sub-Roman Britain.

my Norman ancestors were instrumental in bringing about the earliest unification processes of modern Britain, maybe British day should be on October 14th!*







*Battle of Hastings, don'cherknow
Ah! I must have misunderstood you, yeah Britain as a country can only be traced back to the Act of Union, but as a geographical and racial entity to way before then... It depends on Which Britain Mr. Brown was talking about

[The_Doctor]

I agree with EA, et al.

I say we all watch Red Dwarf and Doctor Who. British Sci-Fi at its best.:2thumbsup:

[Marcellus]

pride in being Welsh, Irish or Scottish is important to people, probably more so than being 'British'.

I'd disagree. I've always thought of myself as British rather than English or Welsh, and a lot of the people I've met would also describe themselves as British rather than English.

[Duke Malcolm]

i meant Britain as in the post-mediaeval political union of its various states including the oddity that is Northern Ireland, rather than the geographical (and, as you correctly point out, racial) entity that was pre-Roman/sub-Roman Britain.

Scotland came about as a result of union between the Scots and Picts, the Scottish kingdom of Dalriada came about as a result of the Scots settling in what is now Argyll. USA came about as a result of the Declaration of Independence which united the 13 colonies. Canada came about as a result of the British North America Act. A country is not made up unless it is a mere figment of some people's imagination or unrecogised by other countries, such as Transdniestr, Sealand, and the country of the Citizens Required scheme thingy.


my Norman ancestors were instrumental in bringing about the earliest unification processes of modern Britain, maybe British day should be on October 14th!

The Battle of Hastings was an English battle, not particularly crucial to Scotland.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I imagine if there were no battle of Hasting then the Scottish nobility wouldn't have had its ranks filled with Normans, Bretons and Flemings and I imagine that Gaelic culture would be in a more healthy state than it is.

[Duke Malcolm]

Yes, it may have had such effects on Scotland since it was a new major foreign power to the south, and King Malcolm III Canmore wouldn't want war, so married a Saxon princess and made the official language of the court Saxon, but it was not a British event: it was a quintessentially English event, with no relation to Scotland.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

yeah, but it definitely had a significant delayed impact on Scotland, like it did on Wales (I've got a feeling that the Welsh Chronicles barely even note that Hastings occurred) and Ireland.

[Papewaio]

Why not have a Britain Day? Celebrate what is good about Britain, the unifying features of a modern Britain.

Or have you become so EU'ed that you can't even if you wanted to? :laugh4:

So what does modern Britain have to offer? :help:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Pape:

tea and chavs

Edit: I mean proper tea with milk and sugar. And some biscuits for dunking.

[Devastatin Dave]

I think it would be splendid.
And here is your Master of Ceremonies!!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1532509206579317476&q=George+Galloway
Cheerio...

[Incongruous]

What's good about modern Britain?
Almost nothing, crap Music, Crappy foriegn fashion labels and cars. Crappy English spoken by the all powerfull working classes, Rupert Murdoch, anti-English sentiment from all areas of GB, a shame in our great history and worst of all... Ken Livingstone!

[thrashaholic]

Why not re-introduce Empire Day instead? That'd be nice....

EDIT:

or better still, encourage the celebration of Commonwealth day.

[Red Peasant]

What's good about modern Britain?
Almost nothing, crap Music, Crappy foriegn fashion labels and cars. Crappy English spoken by the all powerfull working classes, Rupert Murdoch, anti-English sentiment from all areas of GB, a shame in our great history and worst of all... Ken Livingstone!

What a load of puerile bile. I suggest you stay in New Zealand.

[matteus the inbred]

I'd disagree. I've always thought of myself as British rather than English or Welsh, and a lot of the people I've met would also describe themselves as British rather than English.

is this because it's easier to say 'British' than to say 'Welsh' or 'English' etc and then explain that that's also British? 'British' is a nice recognisable cover-all. i certainly don't wish to offend anyone however, so i'll leave this one here and not pretend to know what Celtic and Welsh people think about it. or other English people for that matter.

Hastings was more of a joke suggestion really, i know it would mean nothing to Scottish, Welsh and Irish people...i disagree with using a historically significant date as an excuse for this, as i think what Gordon Brown really means is, he'd like to see all the relatively recently immigrated British people from Asia, Africa, the Caribbean etc support the notion of being British and proud of it before anything else...a unifying effort to counteract the hostility caused by recent terrorism. so while Waterloo might mean something to me, i doubt it means a lot to AJ down at my local off-licence cos he only moved from Bangladesh fifteen years ago, eg.

on the subject, 'The English' by Jeremy Paxman is a very good book to read

[English assassin]

Well, lets say the day would be midsummer day for argument, since its nice to have a day off in the summer, but still what does Gordo actually mean if:


he'd like to see all the relatively recently immigrated British people from Asia, Africa, the Caribbean etc support the notion of being British and proud of it before anything else

Specifically, Gordon, what would happen on this British day to make this true? Just to be a bit controversial here we could have a big lecture on the need to not be racists who think a woman's place is chained to a sink, and that in Britain religion has no role to play in public life and if you want to live under bloody sharia bugger off to Saudi Arabia, which would be a lot more constructive than a load of flag waving. But somehow I doubt Gordon had that in mind.

(NB yes I do know not all, or even most, immigrants think they have the right to beat their wives.)

[matteus the inbred]

difficult, isn't it? what i think he'd like to prevent is a middle-class flag-waving session like the Proms, where people who already feel proud and nationalist about being British indulge themselves. it's a very New Labour thing to try and pull in everyone else and celebrate 'multi-culturalism' (whatever that is) whilst all being British and not condoning beating wives or whatever. i like being British and English and in general i'd rather live here than anywhere else, so i don't think this kind of thing is aimed at me...

is midsummer's day not a significant pagan (actually, make that religious) day? mind you, i think you could connect all 365 days to something religious!

[Idaho]

I'm now enjoying the image of Idaho prancing around in Union Jack boxer shorts scarfing down a chicken tikka cornish pasty and grroving to some Bollywood beats. Though I reckon he knows my tongue was at least partly in cheek.

I can't for the life of me think of a day that could be "British day" as opposed to an English day or a Welsh day or whatever. The 1707 Act of Union would be the only one that made much sense consitutionally, though it would just be an excuse for a load of whinging IMHO. Otherwise, err, the anniversary of universal sufferage? The first album released by the Beatles? Gordo's birthday?

I'll send you the video if you like. I chuck in the x-rated stuff too - when I pull aside those union flag boxers to reveal my good ole british meat and two veg :idea2:

[English assassin]

is midsummer's day not a significant pagan (actually, make that religious) day?

Now we are getting somewhere ! Lets bring back druids. The day would start with a televised dawn ceremony at Stonehenge, followed by enormous feasts with plenty of beer and magic mushrooms, and a few eccentric events like the cheese rolling they do in Gloucestershire or the finals of an all Britain Cumbrian wrestling contest (caber tossing in Scotland). We would end with dancing round bonfires looking for fairies.

Thanks for the offer of the video Idaho but unless its got the royal arms tattoed on it or you have been boffing Sophie Marceau I don't think there is anything unusually patriotic about your todger, so I'll pass.

[matteus the inbred]

We would end with dancing round bonfires looking for fairies.

can't see John Prescott enjoying that...!
i'm game. just need to grow a big beard and practice building giant wicker men to roast victims in...

[Ja'chyra]

I say make it a day off work, say the 14 th of Feb which coincedentally happens to be my birthday, and make all pubs free bars. There's nothing helps people to mingle quite like getting them rat arsed.


Originally Posted by English assassin
We would end with dancing round bonfires looking for fairies.

Always a possibility with enough alcohol.

[matteus the inbred]

Commonwealth Day (second Monday in March) would be appropriate, but i already get that day off as i work for a Commonwealth Organisation...!

[InsaneApache]

As the suggestion was made by an idiot (GB) let's make it April 1st

[Red Peasant]

As the suggestion was made by an idiot (GB) let's make it April 1st

Aha, GB Day it will be then, that's his game, Gordon Brown Day.

Or, if the americans keep telling us what to do, George Bush Day!

[BDC]

Now we are getting somewhere ! Lets bring back druids. The day would start with a televised dawn ceremony at Stonehenge, followed by enormous feasts with plenty of beer and magic mushrooms, and a few eccentric events like the cheese rolling they do in Gloucestershire or the finals of an all Britain Cumbrian wrestling contest (caber tossing in Scotland). We would end with dancing round bonfires looking for fairies.

Thanks for the offer of the video Idaho but unless its got the royal arms tattoed on it or you have been boffing Sophie Marceau I don't think there is anything unusually patriotic about your todger, so I'll pass.
We could just make it a-level results day. Would need minimal changes then.

[Papewaio]

Thanks for the offer of the video Idaho but unless its got the royal arms tattoed on it or you have been boffing Sophie Marceau I don't think there is anything unusually patriotic about your todger, so I'll pass.

So boffing french maids is being patriotic to Britain or just makes more sense?

[English assassin]

So boffing french maids is being patriotic to Britain or just makes more sense?

It's a patriotic duty m8

[Brenus]

I have a good one: 20th of May, anniversary of the Battle of Lincoln in 1217. The last French King was expelled from England: Lincoln Castle was the site of a battle on 20 May 1217. The clash took place during the first Baron’s war between the forces of the future Louis VIII of France and those of King Henry III of England. Louis' forces were attacked by a relief force under the command of William Marshall, 1st Earl of Pembroke. The Comte de la Perche, commanding the French troops, was killed and the defeat led to Louis being expelled from his base in the southeast of England.
The English gave him some monney and his gave back the Crown. Anyway, he had another option.
So after roughly 200 years, the English finally were independant from France.:laugh4:

[GoreBag]

Even though the ruling class was French?

[BDC]

Even though the ruling class was French?
They were Norman, not French. And they ended up thinking of themselves as English anyway.

[Brenus]

“They were Norman, not French. And they ended up thinking of themselves as English anyway.”
That is not valid. If every time you disagree with something about France you say, well, he is not French, is Corsican (Napoleon) or, Alsatian, or Auvergnat, or Gascon, France doesn’t exist as country. France is composed of various counties and even different languages, before the great languages unification of the XIV century.
It is like saying, well, he is not English, he is Londoner…
The Normans were French.~:)
The First English King buried in England and not in France was John Lackland.
And the reason why during the Hundred Years War, the English King was able to claim the Throne of France was because technically, he was French. And without the superb finding of the so-called Salic law, he would have been (no transmission of the throne to female).:no: ~D

[BDC]

That is not valid. If every time you disagree with something about France you say, well, he is not French, is Corsican (Napoleon) or, Alsatian, or Auvergnat, or Gascon, France doesn’t exist as country. France is composed of various counties and even different languages, before the great languages unification of the XIV century.

But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.

[Brenus]

“But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.”
So, your definition for French at this period was only valid for the Ile de France (Paris).
The Normans were in the French territory longer than Corsica when Napoleon became Emperor of the French.
They spoke French (reason why English is full of French words), the Duke of Normandy (as the Duke of Brittany) had to paid Homage to the French King, they were at least belonging to the Kingdom of France, got their power (in term of Feudalism) from the French King. The same thing is valid for Toulouse, and others fiefs.
It you take as starting point 1066 (Hasting) and the battle of Lincoln (1217), it was more than 150 years of full existence of the Duche in the French Kingdom. How much time more is needed to the Normans to become French?

[matteus the inbred]

I have a good one: 20th of May, anniversary of the Battle of Lincoln in 1217. The last French King was expelled from England: Lincoln Castle was the site of a battle on 20 May 1217. The clash took place during the first Baron’s war between the forces of the future Louis VIII of France and those of King Henry III of England. Louis' forces were attacked by a relief force under the command of William Marshall, 1st Earl of Pembroke. The Comte de la Perche, commanding the French troops, was killed and the defeat led to Louis being expelled from his base in the southeast of England.
The English gave him some monney and his gave back the Crown. Anyway, he had another option.
So after roughly 200 years, the English finally were independant from France.:laugh4:

that's very impressive, but even i didn't know much about that, and i have a degree in medieval studies...!
the English ruling class spoke Norman French as a matter of course until as late as the 14th century. the English crown lost Normandy, and therefore its original homeland, in 1204, but definite seperation of the English ruling class from the idea of being as much French as English probably didn't come until Edward III decided to claim both...then it became 'them and us' rather than the combination French/English nobility we'd had until then...

[GoreBag]

But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.

They are now, but at that point in time, Brittany was still its own kingdom and its culture was very, very different from every French region.

[Brenus]

Brittany was still its own kingdom”: Brittany was never a kingdom, but a Duche. And it was probably one of the earliest to be attached to the future French Kingdom, by marriage.
As the difference in culture, go in France in Strasbourg, Lyon then in Toulouse or near Nice and you will see that France is a mixture of cultures. That is why there are more than 500 cheeses…:oops:

[The_Doctor]

In away aren't we all French.:balloon2:

[InsaneApache]

I'm not.

[The_Doctor]

I'm not.

En Francais.

[Rank Bajin]

Well in my own opinion I have to think the whole idea is a load of nonsense. There are already plenty of days that celebrate British achievements and 'Britishness' - Trafalgar Day, the Queen's Birthday, Bonfire Night etc.

It doesn't need a public holiday, although I rather support one for the 5th of November as it was proclaimed at the time that it should be a holiday forever more...

Anyways, but call me a tad cynical, but does anyone else believe that the true rationale behind Gordon Brown's dribbling such nonsense is to appeal to the electorate South of the Border by making himself seem less Scottish? I suppose he thinks the average joe Middle England voter won't even bother to notice the difference. (A moot point is that recently I have noticed his accent sounds even much softer than his normal broad Scottish burr. Hmmmm.... Suspicious, no?)

It is ironic that it just really seems that New Labour has a hidden agenda when they vehemently voted down the idea of a National day for Scotland, quite recently. They must have known that it would have done damage to Brown's idea of being British.

Brown probably thinks this 'British day' crap is going to appeal to England but it isn't. I have noticed the stock of 'Britishness' has plummetted down there over the past few years.

If he wants to get anywhere he might as put in celebrating an 'English day'. That would really impress the southern electorate much more. Oh, I forgot, Labour doesn't really 'do' Englishness, does it... even 'Jerusalem' was called a 'British' hymn by Brown. :no:

Another thing, in relation to the article above, check out the quote:

"But he said the government had damaged Britishness by steps such as introducing devolution in Scotland."

Ironically, the hypocritical Brown had actually championed devolution for thirty odd years. The numpty had probably never given thought to the idea to the results leading to Devolution, that if Scotland began to feel more Scottish it might as a consequence feel well...less British! :dizzy2:

Brown has been doing this for a while:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/4347369.stm

And of course it is all part of his (very) long running campaign to be Prime Minister. Of course Brown would much rather be Chancellor of Britain than First Minister, or even Prime Minister, of Scotland.

This is all really about one man's personal ambition. And quite frankly is rather amusing now to watch Gordon Brown desperately try to become accepted as 'British' in order to try and get Blair's job. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Papewaio]

What you do is have a English Monday, Irish Tuesday,
Scottish Wednesday, Welsh Thursday and a British Friday, all in one week. :book:

[InsaneApache]

I can see I'm going to like you Rank Bajin :2thumbsup:

[The_Doctor]

making himself seem less Scottish

I didn't know he was Scottish. I knew Blair was.


What you do is have a English Monday, Irish Tuesday,
Scottish Wednesday, Welsh Thursday and a British Friday, all in one week.

Any ideas as to what we would do on every day?

What about weekends?

[Papewaio]

Well a Cricket Test takes 5 days...

Traditional (popular) food, famous battle reinactments... not blue fleet vs red fleet :inquisitive: ... positive, forward looking achievements etc

[GoreBag]

Brittany was still its own kingdom”: Brittany was never a kingdom, but a Duche. And it was probably one of the earliest to be attached to the future French Kingdom, by marriage.

Semantics, and Brittany became a part of the French nation-state, in the sense that it was being ruled by the French king, in the 1500's, if I recall. How that can be considered one of the earliest, you'll have to elaborate.

[Duke Malcolm]

Anyways, but call me a tad cynical, but does anyone else believe that the true rationale behind Gordon Brown's dribbling such nonsense is to appeal to the electorate South of the Border by making himself seem less Scottish? I suppose he thinks the average joe Middle England voter won't even bother to notice the difference. (A moot point is that recently I have noticed his accent sounds even much softer than his normal broad Scottish burr. Hmmmm.... Suspicious, no?)

Would it not also be plausible that he is trying to make more Scots support the Union? (Although I agree that he is playing down the fact he is Scottish by saying this, I'm just trying to look on a less shameful-of-background side of things...)



It is ironic that it just really seems that New Labour has a hidden agenda when they vehemently voted down the idea of a National day for Scotland, quite recently. They must have known that it would have done damage to Brown's idea of being British.

I was peeved off when I found I wasn't getting another bank holiday off school... But without a national day for Britain or for St George and St David, then Scotland shouldn't be special. The day would most likely be used by the SNP for Nationalist purposes.



"But he said the government had damaged Britishness by steps such as introducing devolution in Scotland."

Ironically, the hypocritical Brown had actually championed devolution for thirty odd years. The numpty had probably never given thought to the idea to the results leading to Devolution, that if Scotland began to feel more Scottish it might as a consequence feel well...less British! :dizzy2:

Ah, I think that might have a hidden meaning. The Rt Hon. Gordon Brown is at odds with the Rt Hon. Jack McConnell and the rest of the Scottish Executive over a variety of things, the latest which appeared in my paper was the Executive's plan to increase the Forth Road Bridge tolls...

[InsaneApache]

and don't even mention the bridge to Skye......:sweatdrop: :oops:

[Axeknight]

What would we actually do on Britain Day though? Can't imagine we as a nation would go for the cheerleaders, flag-waving, fireworks and marching about a bit sort of American stuff.

Still, this idea:


Now we are getting somewhere ! Lets bring back druids. The day would start with a televised dawn ceremony at Stonehenge,
... would at least make some work for Jonathon Dimbleby

"And now we see... the head druid, wearing the traditional robe... approaching the henge, sacrificial dagger in hand... the dagger of course... historically significant for its..." [drones on in monotone with dubious pauses forever]

[InsaneApache]

and Tony and Cherie tied down under the bluestones....

I love fantasy.

[Brenus]

“Semantics, and Brittany became a part of the French nation-state, in the sense that it was being ruled by the French king, in the 1500's, if I recall. How that can be considered one of the earliest, you'll have to elaborate”.

No, it isn’t semantic, it is how feudalism worked!!! You mixed modern concepts (Nation-State and French Identity) with old concept (Feudalism).
Anne de Bretagne getting married with Charles VIII made Brittany directly under the French King Land. He will administrate the Duche on “the Chef” of his wife, and after his son will do it, etc…
The French Identity (or German, English, Italian) means nothing during the Middle-Ages. The links in the society were feudal.
So when I see people saying the Normans were not French, the Britons were not French, the Corsicans were not French, the Alsatians were not French, as defence (better to have a Norman Dynasty/Kings than French?), I just laugh. What is France, according to them?:dizzy2:

Now, in Feudal France, the Duke, Comte, Baron, Marquis and other Titles of Normandy, Brittany, Burgundy and all the others I don’t remember got the lands from the French King who was their suzerain. It is so true that William the Bastard/the Conqueror, French Norman, Duke of Normandy, introduced this concept in the future UK.:idea2:
It is a decentralized kind of government which appeared during the 1st Western renaissance, as a solution after the failure of the Western Roman Empire confronted to the Barbarians Invasion, famines and unrests. It is an idea around the link, the contract from man to man, from the vassal to his suzerain, who received as payment a fief, which is at the same time the mission, the money provider but also the reward.
The hierarchy (allegiance) is the personalisation of the relationship between vassals and suzerains.
From the XII Century, the rules of feudalism will be written in some books like Très ancienne coutume de Normandie (Statuta et consuetudines Normannie) in 1199-1200.:book:

So, the Duche of Bretagne, like the one of Normandie had to joined the host du Roi de France, had to give homage to the Roi de France.
Yes, it was some Duke of Brittany who try to create their own kingdom, but like Charles le Temeraire, Raymond de Toulouse and other Grands Feodaux. That doesn’t make them different from the main stream.~D

[Lentonius]

somehow the fact the same people who practically surpressed national pride in the name of multicultural equality, and now propose this seems somewhat strange

good idea though, being able to have national pride once in a while:laugh4:

[Brenus]

I don’t know if you speak of England, but a country celebrating two times the same battle (Trafalgar) can’t be the one which “practically surpressed national pride”.
It is true this celebration is against the French, who are politically correct enemies.
And honestly, I don’t think to celebrate Eshowe at kwaGingindlovu, April 2nd, 1879, would fulfil the demands for National Pride.
Ok, I give the answer, battle won against the Zulu, after the disaster of Isandlwana.:laugh4: