How many spies does it take to change a light bulb!?

[Third spearman from the left]

Ok people I need your best use of under arm tactics...in other words, what's your plan of attack when using spies?

I'm producing High valour (two star) spies but having very little success in getting them to cause enough trouble to the other factions. When I have them on home soil they seem to be having trouble keeping the people in line and get caught easily when trying to get into other factions backyards.

So any top tips on how to best make use of spies?

[matteus the inbred]

ans: one to change the lightbulb and fifteen to get caught and tortured.

make lots of them, spam them (although this is considered rather cheesy!), cos they get caught at a fierce rate once the proper buildings are in place...use non-catchable units like Emissaries, Bishops and Princesses to see which provinces haven't got the best security or have low loyalty, and then target those.
i once got six out of seven spies caught and killed in one turn just cos the opposition built border forts...:creep: :viking:

[Betito]

Spies are best used in your own faction. Some of the functions are keeping the peace in the troublesome provinces(in fact, 1 spy per province is a must have), or charging of treason to your disloyal generals.

If you want to use it agains the enemies, stay away from provinces with border forts: your spies and assasins will be killed almost always in such provinces, and even if they don't, they won't last for more than... 5 years (believe me, i lost a 7 star assasin that way).

Of course, if there is no border fort, or you really want to try it, do as the above poster says and spam an insane amount of agents, one of them should survive... perhaps.

In my opinion, it's a waste of resources. Forget about the money, you waste a turn that could've been used to train more reliable agents—alims or inquisitors, anyone?—, or an army. But you may not think so...

[antisocialmunky]

I don't like using spies on the opponent, something about moving 30 spies into a single province is very time consuming, until you lose 10 of them the next turn...

[The Darkhorn]

ans: one to change the lightbulb and fifteen to get caught and tortured.
:laugh4: For some reason I was in a totally serious mood when reading this and was caught off guard. Excellent. Thanks for loosening me up!

[Third spearman from the left]

I think the spy spaming is happening to me, one minute I've got 167% in a province and next turn it's down to 79%, and I have border forts! OK so I'll spam the factions back.


Right no more light bulbs, back to the candles for me!!!

[Martok]

Spies are best used in your own faction. Some of the functions are keeping the peace in the troublesome provinces(in fact, 1 spy per province is a must have), or charging of treason to your disloyal generals.

If you want to use it agains the enemies, stay away from provinces with border forts: your spies and assasins will be killed almost always in such provinces, and even if they don't, they won't last for more than... 5 years (believe me, i lost a 7 star assasin that way).

Of course, if there is no border fort, or you really want to try it, do as the above poster says and spam an insane amount of agents, one of them should survive... perhaps.

In my opinion, it's a waste of resources. Forget about the money, you waste a turn that could've been used to train more reliable agents—alims or inquisitors, anyone?—, or an army. But you may not think so...


I concur. As a general rule, I only use spies in my own territory. They're good for improving a province's loyalty and for convicting disloyal generals, but that's about it. The only other use I've ever had for them is that on certain occasions, they've managed to open up a castle's gates so I don't lose men having to assault it. This is a very rare occurence in my experience, however.

[Roark]

I love using spies.

If you've got a decent Navy, or plenty of emissaries / religious agents, it's easy to see which provinces have the security buildings. Avoid them. There are usually plenty of provinces which DON'T have a watchtower or borderfort.

I generally use spies to flood an opponent's empire just before I make an assault on him. They usually serve to tip the unlucky faction over the edge into civil war for me, once I've taken 2 or 3 provinces. This makes further invasion much easier.

Also, if I see a fairly rebellious province with a smallish garrison, I'll plonk a spy in there to try to foment an uprising.

[The Darkhorn]

I concur. As a general rule, I only use spies in my own territory. They're good for improving a province's loyalty and for convicting disloyal generals, but that's about it. The only other use I've ever had for them is that on certain occasions, they've managed to open up a castle's gates so I don't lose men having to assault it. This is a very rare occurence in my experience, however.

I always forget to try this. I'VE NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED IT.

[Martok]

I always forget to try this. I'VE NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED IT.


You mean using spies to open up a castle gate that you have besieged? It's quite fun--at least when it works, which isn't often (in my experience, anyway). If you're going to try it, however, there's a few things you probably want to keep in mind:

1.) The more stars a spy has, the better his chances. I know that's a "duh" statement; but in this particular case it bears emphasizing. Of the few times a spy has successfully opened up the gates for me, they all had at least 1 or 2 stars; I have yet to see a 0-star spy pull this off. I'm sure it's still possible for them, but I haven't yet seem them do so successfully.

2.) The smaller the castle, the greater your chance of success. Spies seem to have a much higher chance of opening gates to forts and keeps than they do with citadels and fortresses.

3.) The smaller the garrison, the higher your spy's chances are of getting the gate open. So sometimes you may want to siege the castle for 1-2 turns first *before* sending in Mr. Sneaky to do his thing.

[Knight Templar]

Read this topic
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=52284

I use spies mostly in enemy provinces (of course, avoiding BF). I also tend to put at least one spy in every my province with port.

[matteus the inbred]

:laugh4: For some reason I was in a totally serious mood when reading this and was caught off guard. Excellent. Thanks for loosening me up!

:bow:

as to spies...i used them constantly in STW, they could be very effective, probably too effective. a dozen of them could bring about simultaneous rebellions in several enemy provinces. in MTW they are statistically far less effective, but instead provide more useful services like accusing disloyal generals of treason and opening castle gates (although i have yet to try this as well!). i agree with Betito and Martok really though, it's better to use them in your provinces to ensure loyalty and catch opposition spies and assassins. if you want to go and spy on the enemy use emissaries, princesses and priests...they can be assassinated but they can't be caught and tortured.

[The Darkhorn]

Actually, I use them extensively at times, especially on the HRE, which seem particularly vulnarable to them.

As to provinces, I keep a bishop/cardinal, assassin, and spy in each of mine. However, I have a bad habit of demanding perfection and not building spies or assassins until I can pump them out with max stars...and in Syria if I have it.

Which brings up a question. On my map, it doesn't say anything about bonuses to assassins in Syria, nor Katanks in Big C. Are there any other provinces that give a second valour bonus beside the one mentioned on the map?

[Third spearman from the left]

I didn't know assassins got extra valour in Syria? Does anyone know if spies get extra valour somewhere in particular?

[The Darkhorn]

I didn't know assassins got extra valour in Syria? Does anyone know if spies get extra valour somewhere in particular?
They get 2 extra valour in Syria. So, with all the buildings, you can pump out ***** assassins. Great huh?

[Third spearman from the left]

That's great I'm off to Syria for some king killers!!! :laugh4:

[matteus the inbred]

Which brings up a question. On my map, it doesn't say anything about bonuses to assassins in Syria, nor Katanks in Big C. Are there any other provinces that give a second valour bonus beside the one mentioned on the map?

Big C has it stated about the Kats, i'm pretty sure about that...you mean there's an EXTRA bonus above the one stated on the scroll for Constantinople? Syria does not have anything at all written about assassins, it surprised me too.
haven't encountered any others...there may be a spy bonus one somewhere, i suspect.

[ajaxfetish]

Yeah, some provinces give a valor bonus to more than 1 unit, but it will only ever display the first one. I think Bulgaria gives bonuses to two (Bulgarian Brigands and either Janissary Inf or JHI, IIRC) as well.

Spies for me are mostly peacekeepers within my own lands, but they can be good for softening up a soon-to-be-acquired territory or betraying an enemy castle. You can train them up before sending them on foreign missions to increase their survivability. Some of your options are: 1) building higher-level spy buildings 2) keeping them in your territories but not building border forts (without the BF it's up to your agents to catch enemy spies and assassins, and when they do they increase in valor) 3) try a crap unit, ie peasants, for treason over and over again. When they get spy-resistance virtues, disband and train a new one. Before long you can have a network of 5-valor spies to send abroad without having exposed them to any danger in the process.

Ajax

[Third spearman from the left]

I like that last idea, I have never put any of my generals on the spot so it might be fun to give it a go. Can you use your spies on merc generals? They always have very low loyalty

[ajaxfetish]

I can't remember if you can try merc generals. I suspect not but who knows. The main reason I'd avoid that is the upkeep cost. Peasants give you a hundred chances, and are dirt cheap both to train and maintain. Of course if they become 'invulnerable' or something along those lines you don't have much chance of success, but if you pair your spy with an inquisitor or GI and have three or four peasant units sitting in the province, you can let the GI work on ones that build up spy resistance and the spy try those who become too pious. Once you kill off the general all the v/v's are wiped for the next one and you've got a clean slate with better agents. It's like running a farm.
:charge: :fishbowl: :croc: :elephant: :spider: :hippie:

Ajax

[Ludens]

there may be a spy bonus one somewhere, i suspect.
There isn't one for spies but there are several invisible bonuses:

Hidden bonus provinces (from Maeda Toshiie)
Bulgaria Janissary Heavy Infantry
Norway Huscarles
Rum Ottoman Sipahi
Tripoli Sipahi of the Porte
Syria Assassins (bonus after 1095 - Old Man of the Mountain event)
Castile Grand Inquisitor

However, two units are listed as receiving valour bonuses in two provinces in the game files, but they get it only in the first. These are Berber Camels and Ottoman Sipahi, but I am not so sure about the last one).

[The Darkhorn]

Big C gives a valour bonus to Byz Inf and Katanks.

[Roark]

Tripoli Sipahi of the Porte


Damn, I had no idea... This is my favourite unit.

:bow:

Many thanks.

[Martok]

There isn't one for spies but there are several invisible bonuses:

Hidden bonus provinces (from Maeda Toshiie)
Bulgaria Janissary Heavy Infantry
Norway Huscarles
Rum Ottoman Sipahi
Tripoli Sipahi of the Porte
Syria Assassins (bonus after 1095 - Old Man of the Mountain event)
Castile Grand Inquisitor

However, two units are listed as receiving valour bonuses in two provinces in the game files, but they get it only in the first. These are Berber Camels and Ottoman Sipahi, but I am not so sure about the last one).


Wow, didn't know about Norway's secret bonuses for Huscarles. Geez, just in case they weren't badass enough as it is.... ~:rolleyes: Guess I'll have to get back to playing the Danes again too. Thanks Luden!

[Third spearman from the left]

I'm starting to think that modding the spies and assassins roles might make the game a bit more interesting for the dark arts. I think raising the build time for border watch towers from one to two years (and their cost) and then making access to border forts only available after the build of a castle. This could spice things up for the AI and the player giving spies and assassins more power.

Any thoughts?

[matteus the inbred]

hmmm...they are already a bit of a pain sometimes...at times it feels like you can't send an emissary anywhere without him turning up dead in a sewer. maybe spies ought to be less easily caught though.
historically, i think medieval assassins were fairly rare...henchmen murdering people on royal orders were fairly common, but actual professionals of the 'hitman' variety...apart from the Assassins themselves, of course. don't know about spies, i expect they got used a lot. i think it is too easy to build up border security of the type that didn't really exist...so, yeah, higher tech and build requirements, certainly requiring a town watch variety of building, would be good.

edit: in STW spies and assassins were a bit overpowered...they didn't get caught as much and spies had a greater effect on province loyalty...it made the game too easy.

[Marquis de Said]

The only other use I've ever had for them is that on certain occasions, they've managed to open up a castle's gates so I don't lose men having to assault it. This is a very rare occurence in my experience, however.

I manage to open castle gates quite often. The trick is to wait for a while. It is especially good to use spies for opening castle gates if you want to keep all the buildings in a province, as none will be lost if the spy succeeds.

Here's the trick. Annihilate the enemy army so that it's down to very few survivors who retreat into the keep/castle/citadel/fortress. Besiege them for a few turns. Send your spies to the povince. That way they'll keep it happy while you wait. Every turn, test the castle with one spy to see the odds of success. Once the percentage is high enough (>50%) order a spy or two to open the castle gates. This may consume a few spies, but it may spare you up to 30-40 years' worth of buildings. And if a valour 0 spy succeeds in opening a citadel, he may even get two stars for his troubles. Well worth it in my experience.

[Marquis de Said]

3) try a crap unit, ie peasants, for treason over and over again. When they get spy-resistance virtues, disband and train a new one. Before long you can have a network of 5-valor spies to send abroad without having exposed them to any danger in the process.


I personally would not disband or even kill the general with an inquisitor. If a spy manages to kill a general with really good spy-resistance virtues, he gains more valour than for killing an ordinary general. I've sometimes had spies gain 2 stars for succeeding against generals with "Spy Network".

[Ciaran]

I'm starting to think that modding the spies and assassins roles might make the game a bit more interesting for the dark arts. I think raising the build time for border watch towers from one to two years (and their cost) and then making access to border forts only available after the build of a castle. This could spice things up for the AI and the player giving spies and assassins more power.

Any thoughts?

Then why not take out watch towers/border forts completely, putting the counter-espionage solely into the hands of spies and assasins? You´ll kep spies in each and every province anyways (at least you´re supposed to, though I never do that. As far as the agents are concerned I´m lazy), might as well have a bit more benefit from them. However, then you might end up with spies/assasins ruling supreme again, although, thinking about it, no spy or assasin can stop a whole army, as for each killed General his follower steps forth imediately and killing off even a single unit of peasants might...take a while.

[matteus the inbred]

you can't stop an army with assassins, but you can wipe out someone's ruling line instead of messing with army generals. the 'invincible geisha' (ultra assassins) in STW made playing quite frustrating sometimes as you could lose from a very powerful position just cos someone else has a very good assassin.

however, simply exercising some restraint in the matter of assassins and inquisitors makes the game more even. i wouldn't mind seeing inquisitors unable to try and burn opposing rulers and heirs, as i can't think of any monarchs who met that particular fate historically.

[Weebeast]

there may be a spy bonus one somewhere, i suspect.
Byzantine produces spies with extra valour everywhere.



https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3463/valorbonus1zk.th.jpg (https://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valorbonus1zk.jpg)

[Ludens]

Big C gives a valour bonus to Byz Inf and Katanks.
According to the unit files, Byzantine Infantry doesn't get a valour bonus anywhere. Incidentally, Ottoman Sipahi are indeed the second double entry in the 13th collumn of the unit file. Though I have not tried it myself, I am told that Rum does not give a valour bonus to them (just like Algeria does not give a valour bonus to Berber Camels, because already get one in Morroco).


Byzantine produces spies with extra valour everywhere.

https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3463/valorbonus1zk.th.jpg (https://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valorbonus1zk.jpg)
That collumn actually means something different. The Byzantines get a discount on spies, not a valour bonus.

[Weebeast]

Damn, we really learn new things everyday lol. I should've scrolled down a little. It's good to know though.

It's kinda weird too that Polish gets a discount on Orthodox bishops when they can't produce them.

[Ludens]

It's kinda weird too that Polish gets a discount on Orthodox bishops when they can't produce them.
It's kinda weird that the Polish get an orthodox victory speech as well, or so I was told: never played a Polish campaign.

[sbroadbent]

however, simply exercising some restraint in the matter of assassins and inquisitors makes the game more even. i wouldn't mind seeing inquisitors unable to try and burn opposing rulers and heirs, as i can't think of any monarchs who met that particular fate historically.

It takes a Grand Inquisitor (with a couple valour), an Atheist ruler, as well as 100% Zeal in the particular province to have at best a 25% chance of frying a ruler. I find normal Inquistors (even with 5+ Valor) to have no chance of success against rulers (other than giving them the Atheist trait).

[ajaxfetish]

I remember Eat yer Greens modded his game so border forts required a citadel, to give spies and assassins more survivability. I think it worked well for him. It still wouldn't necessarily leave you supervulnerable as your own agents can catch intruders, and if they do they'll valor up and do it ever better.

I've no idea if it's possible but I wonder if there's a way to mod the border fort's chances of catching spies or assassins. Maybe its power could just be toned down a bit, or at least for spies (the AI seems to send many more assassins than spies my way).

Ajax

[NodachiSam]

Wow Citadels? That's pretty high on the tech tree. I would do maybe requiring castles or something.

[Third spearman from the left]

How about BTW can be built once you have a keep and BF after you have a citadel. Does anyone know more about eat your greens progress and how well the changes worked for him?

[Geezer57]

I remember Eat yer Greens modded his game so border forts required a citadel, to give spies and assassins more survivability. I think it worked well for him. It still wouldn't necessarily leave you supervulnerable as your own agents can catch intruders, and if they do they'll valor up and do it ever better.
In my last several campaigns (mostly XL or BKB mods), I've deliberately refused to build Border Forts, only Watchtowers. I protect my provinces with my own agents, starting (of course) with assassins. I usually keep a religious agent (Bishop or Alim), an assassin, and a spy in all areas - with more of each as appropriate where there's a high-value target (my heir, etc.) for the AI. I haven't lost a single decent unit playing this way, only an occasional Bishop or Emmissary, even though the AI has lost hundreds of assassins trying my defenses out.

This approach results in rapid rise in valor for your agents, as they gain stars while performing the defense. I've even taken to escorting my advancing armies with packets of agents - the spies and assassins follow one turn after, emmissaries and religious agents go in on the same turn. Keeps my best generals protected from enemy agents, even on the first turn in a new province.

[ajaxfetish]

Good plan. I've tried playing without BF's in one or two campaigns and it worked out well, though my system wasn't as elaborate and not quite as successful.

The need for modding would be to reduce border forts in AI lands, to give your guys better chances in hostile territory, though since the AI is unlikely to use as coordinated an agent defence as Geezer does, it'll probably give the player even more of an advantage.

Ajax