Quo Vadis, America?

[Franconicus]

Reflecting about things that happaned since 9/11, I was wondering where America is going: Twin Towers, decrease of rights and increase of observation, war in Afghanistan, quarrel with the UN and the allies, operation against Saddam, the doctrin of preventive warfare, victory, occupation and terrorism in Iraq, proof that the main cause was wrong, the torture in one prison, Gitmo, hidden prisons in abroad, discussion when torture is right or wrong or when it is torture at all, kidnapping of suspects ...

Where will this end? Will there be a lasting trauma, increasing willingness of violence in the American life and policy, or will America return to a normal mode again?

What do you Americans think? What does the rest think?

[Sjakihata]

This, my friend, is the beginning of the decline of the America we know today.

[master of the puppets]

gulp...its very hard for me to say but its disturbing how alike our culture is becoming to all the falling empires, unless we get a really good leader to pull us out i see a depression in the future as other countries take away our commerce, oil prices will kill us as our countrys companies make no attempt to remedy there greed. patroitism will fall and people will care less for america, if we have weakened leaders i see costly wars as other countries notice our economic crisis...that is maybe that will happen, but if i become president i will make america the shining light of the world.

[Ice]

This, my friend, is the beginning of the decline of the America we know today.

Nah, more like a wake up call.

[Devastatin Dave]

:juggle2:
Well considering we had internment camps for Japanese and German American citizens back in WW2, I guess we're doing pretty good since we've yet to lock up our Muslim population yet. Don't be decieved, we're doing fine even if the American hating Left tells you we aren't.

[Major Robert Dump]

I'm getting laid more

[Vladimir]

Reflecting about things that happaned since 9/11,

It's quite the irony that the .org is devoted to things historical and yet you seem to be blissfully ignorant them. You think things are bad now :laugh4: ?

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm getting laid more
Well, it appears the good Major is doing a little "tapping" of wires as well.:laugh4:

[Ser Clegane]

It's quite the irony that the .org is devoted to things historical and yet you seem to be blissfully ignorant them. You think things are bad now :laugh4: ?

Quite an unnecessary (and incorrect) snide remark :stare:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Incorrect?

Inappropriately snidey, yes, but I don't know about incorrect.

Things were pretty bad during the Depression.

In hindsight, it wasn't the end. But how many knew that during the Depression?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't know. One of America's outstanding qualities is it's ability to reinvent itself, to rejuvenate itself. It has had difficult times before. But they always bounce back up, with renewed spirit and vigour. It never seems to completely lose that feeling of innocent optimism.

On the other hand, in my nightmares, I do fear a definite, irreversible conservative backlash. But this proces isn't the result of 9-11, it was merely sped up by it and it's aftermath.

[Strike For The South]

You have nightmares about America? Thats werid the only nightmares I have about France is the one where Chirac finally snaps and holds our freedom fry supply hostage!

[master of the puppets]

You have nightmares about America? Thats werid the only nightmares I have about France is the one where Chirac finally snaps and holds our freedom fry supply hostage!
i understand your fear, those would be dark days:shame:

i think that america may be able to reinvent itself but you must not overlook the staggering fact that corruption is higher than ever, our basic rights are being questioned, we have started a war that everyone thinks is frivolous, public virtue is little to none in some places, we have become heavily entrenched in technology that may or may not advance in the world, big business has all but crushed small business, our commerce is being shipped overseas, there is a mounting threat of warfare from our foes, racism and anger twards countries erodes our internatiional standing, terrorism, and people like me...other than those we got nothin to worry about.

[Ser Clegane]

Incorrect?

Inappropriately snidey, yes, but I don't know about incorrect.

Incorrect, as the original post did not at all imply that the US hasn't seen worse situations in the past - incorrect (and snidey), in implying that the thread starter is ignorant.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Yeah. On further review of the play, offensive and incorrect statement and snide remark. 15 yard penalty, repeat second down!

OT: Ser Clegane I love that angry smilie you use. I just picture this whenever I see it.

https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7428/serc6is.gif

:laugh4:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

We've gone through worse and made it through. The only problem is now we have Liberals who actually talk (but don't think) so we can't get anything done without being called racist or annoyed at violating "Terrorist Rights." Terrorists have rights? Apparently they do, after Sept. 11th.

Too bad we cannot charge the Democratic Party with Treason. Get the Republicans too. And the Greens. And all them tiny socialist parties.

Vote Constitution Party 2008 (hahahahahahhaha but really)

I say we get all the conservatives, move to a small, democratic country, and vote ourselves in. Over and over and over again.

[Watchman]

Yeah, but who'd want to let you in in the first place ? Betcha they'd just turn you back at Customs and tell you to leave civilized people alone...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If I didn't pay any attention to the news I wouldn't know that anything had occurred...

[Ser Clegane]

https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7428/serc6is.gif

:laugh4:

:laugh4:

Perhaps I should use that one as avatar :idea2:

[Watchman]

It has... impact.

...and a smoky, robust oaken aroma...(/wine taster)

[King Henry V]

All empires (I consider America to be an Empire. In my book, that's a compliment:laugh4: ) decline and fall. It is a fact of history. To think otherwise is foolish and arrogant (hell, even the Nazis knew that they would evebtually end). America will fall, one day. Whether it will tomorrow or in fifty years time or more, no one can really know. But all things come to an end.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You have nightmares about America?I do, in fact. Of the kind in which the country which is the champion of the west becomes fatally anti-scientific; creationist; under the spell of religious extremists; militaristic; gun-toting; led by lobbyists and special interest groups; and where women need to have abortions in dark alleys.

In short, irreversibly estranged from mainstream western Europe. It would be the end of any sense of a common western civilization and would mean a definitive breakup of transatlantic ties. Just at a time when large parts of the globe are catching up and are about to become serious contenders for the west.

[Strike For The South]

I do, in fact. Of the kind in which the country which is the champion of the west becomes fatally anti-scientific; creationist; under the spell of religious extremists; militaristic; gun-toting; led by lobbyists and special interest groups; and where women need to have abortions in dark alleys.

In short, irreversibly estranged from mainstream western Europe. It would be the end of any sense of a common western civilization and would mean a definitive breakup of transatlantic ties. Just at a time when large parts of the globe are catching up and are about to become serious contenders for the west.

I have an answer for that nukes

[Rodion Romanovich]

All empires (I consider America to be an Empire. In my book, that's a compliment:laugh4: ) decline and fall. It is a fact of history. To think otherwise is foolish and arrogant (hell, even the Nazis knew that they would evebtually end). America will fall, one day. Whether it will tomorrow or in fifty years time or more, no one can really know. But all things come to an end.

Yes, but the fall of an empire can be affected in many ways by the actions of that empire. For example the nazi "empire" fell quickly because they went around trying to start wars with everyone. Fighting both USSR and the USA wasn't exactly a too bright decision. Although the involvement of the USA wasn't easy for them to avoid, their removal of all safety margins for being able to handle neutrals joining the war on their opposing side by attacking the USSR and leaving Britian alone to regroup the RAF could probably even then have been possible to predict would lead to defeat.

On the other hand you can postpone a horrible fall like the romans by divide et impera followed by economical and military buildup and fortification, but the humiliation over divide et impera and the discrimination called for a horrible revenge once it came.

Other empires just degrade slowly, became a smaller state that's no longer an empire but at least a country, and do so without suffering greatly in the process.

Saying that these things are fully random is IMO foolish and arrogant, to use your own expression. On the other hand I in no way imply that there's no randomness in it, as that would be equally foolish and arrogant. Many empires of fairly nice guys have been destroyed because they were ignorant and thought they wouldn't be subject to invasion from the outside. But at least it's better to remove as many causes as possible for a future fall, if you want an empire to last.


One of America's outstanding qualities is it's ability to reinvent itself, to rejuvenate itself. It has had difficult times before. But they always bounce back up, with renewed spirit and vigour. It never seems to completely lose that feeling of innocent optimism.

On a side note, that very phrase was commonly uttered in the roman empire during the century before it's fall.

To sum it up: America has carried out far from sound politics since ww2, but has in no way gone so far that it can't repair itself if it acts quickly. On the other hand, there seems to be little desire for acting quickly to repair the damages, and the new generation of leaders in the USA are becoming more and more trigger happy and war-mongering, even threatening to thrust a wedge between Europe and the USA, which would be fatal at a time where many other parts of the world are rising in economical and military power. Finally it's a dangerous attitude that it'll fix itself without any active action. More activity is needed to allow for further implementation of a functional democratic system and conscription in the USA, two factors which would remove the irrational and uncontrolled war-mongering which creates new enemies against the USA, something that in the long term can only be disastrous. The attitude that it'll fix itself, in combination with the escalation of horrid developments (which show that active work is needed to turn the trend), might make this list of terrible developments into - unfortunately - the beginning of a much longer list of horrible developments of this kind, rather than just a temporary crisis.

[Watchman]

Know when the British Empire was at its largest ? Between the World Wars. At that point it was also pretty much also at its weakest, although that probably wasn't readily obvious at the time.

And how many in 1989 could tell the Soviets would be gone in two years ?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Know when the British Empire was at its largest ? Between the World Wars. At that point it was also pretty much also at its weakest, although that probably wasn't readily obvious at the time.

And how many in 1989 could tell the Soviets would be gone in two years ?

Large in terms of land ownage is a very poor measurement method for how well an empire resists itäs fall. Usually the turning point comes long before the largest land ownage is achieved. As for the USSR it hasn't gone through a total fall, all that's happened is that it's been transformed from a superpower empire into a very large and still powerful country - all that fell was the communistic regime and the occupation of areas which the USSR had no legal claim to and that had previously easily been possible to predict would keep rebellion for a long time until winning. The "fall" was simply that the new leaders realized how illegal the claims to these territories were and gave up the provinces in a fairly peaceful way instead of fighting repeated rebellions over territoriy that wasn't really that valuable to them.

What is meant by the word fall might vary, and not all "falls" are to worry about. The important thing is that there still, as I said, are very good possibilities of predicting what your actions will lead to if you're prepared to learn from history.

[Sheep]

Well we have definitely lost our luster in the rest of the world, I think. Except perhaps in some parts of Eastern Europe who are still grateful for the end of the Cold War. Maybe there needs to be another giant World War and we can come to the rescue again and everyone will love us again... for awhile.

At least I hope we come to the rescue... I hear Chinese is pretty hard to learn!

[Brenus]

“Except perhaps in some parts of Eastern Europe who are still grateful for the end of the Cold War.” Yeap, the Kazaks are definitively grateful: Now, the political opponents are boiled alive.
*****, I am a ennemy of freedom now...

[ajaxfetish]

Well, America has certainly seen darker days politically, such as the years leading up to the civil war. In that situation the country dealt with a severe internal crisis and had to reinvent itself considerably, but made it through. There were some very strong personalities involved, and some of those wounds still haven't healed, but the country has survived, and grown ever stronger.

As for a falling empire, the nation is still pretty young. I don't expect America to last forever, but I'm still optimistic about the future. We have a government that for all its faults seems to me remarkably similar to Machiavelli's ideal government (I'm not talking about the dictatorship in the Prince), and a flexible constitution that can change with time as necessary. It takes more than a few bad leaders or a few bad years to take a large country under.

And America is first and foremost a land of diversity. There are conservatives (not all of whom are fundamentalist Christian) and there are liberals. There are those who believe in evolution and those who don't. There are those who love their country and those who hate it. And there's everything in between. I don't think any one extreme viewpoint is powerful enough to overcome reality in America, however much it may seem that way to some in the country and the world.

I don't think my nation is always right, but I do believe in its core values and principles (and I think they are fairly unique in the history of the world). I don't think America is invincible, but I do think its strength is far from spent.

Ajax

[Azi Tohak]

The USA has its problems. So? Every country has its own difficulties. I believe ours are magnified both by the attention received because of our status in the world, combined with a faction in our own country hell-bent on using whatever means they can to discredit Bush and by extension Republicans.

I point out the riots in France, the home-grown terrorism in Britain (or UK, England... I don't even know what to call that country. Which is it?), the fear of the immigrant workers in Germany, and the beach race-riots of Australia. Every nation has its own problems, what makes you think the USA is any worse than the rest of the west?

Franconius, what do you mean by return to a normal mode? The mode under Clinton? Bush Sr.? Reagan? Roosevelt? Clinton had the same intel structure as GW. The same European CIA camps. The same domestic wire-tapping (Patriot Act comes from his Presidency), and did he not squabble with the UN?

Torture has been used for... longer than can be remembered. This is not the thread to question its morality (I'm sure there are hundreds of posts around here on THAT somewhere around here), and I simply don't see what the big deal is. You don't think MI6, the Mossad and whatever the German and French, and South African, and Indonesian, and Japanese, and Chinese, and Brazilian equivalents don't all use the same techniques?

I think this country is more divided than before, but I think much of that divide is simply made up. Like Red vs Blue. Even the most extreme Liberals I know (and being a college student, even in the mid-west, introduces you to some wackos) don't advocate rebellion, or anything else to damage the structure of the US. Sure, they might hate Bush (even though they don't know why [which I find delightful]), but they won't seriously try to install a Cult of Reason to completely remove all Christianity from anything and anyone. The most extreme conservatives I know don't advocate the killing of all brown people, or the killing of all gays as some would have you believe. Christian 'Fundamentalists' (I hate that term so much) that I know don't disagree with science, they are just not sold fully on evolution (drop a bunch of chemicals in a sterile bucket, and see what happens. Nothing living!).

I think our biggest problem is the philosophy that it is always someone else's fault. Passing the buck (yup, even at the top of the Nation) is a big problem. I don't know what it would take to fix it (a new President? Please. Politicians make their living from shifting blame).

I don't think this country is as unified or morally stable as it should be, but I think we are doing fine.

Azi

[Franconicus]

... but I do believe in its core values and principles

Ajax,
I agree that these values are outstanding. I know that Bush reemphasized that the US and Germany share the same values of Freedom, Human Rights ... . However I have the feeling that these values are becoming not binding and convertable notions. Like Human Rights: of cause the US supports them, if not then they create the extre status of 'illegal combatants' (as if they were no humans) and then it is alright not to respect their rights. Right and wrong is only a question of a good notion and a good lawyer.
Other examples:
Torture - the US is not torturing, maybe some unfriendly treatment for unfriendly people. Or sometimes people are sent to other countries were they are tortured under the eyes of US officers - but the US is not toruring.
War against Iraq: Sad to see that the US government finds lawyers who declare that the war is legal according to the rules of the UN; while the rest of the free world does not agree.
Creationism - How to change scientific truth into a vage theory


Franconius, what do you mean by return to a normal mode?
I mean everything that happened after 9/11. It is no surprise that that changed the US society.
Clinton? Bush Sr.? Reagan? Roosevelt? Although I do not like some of them all worked on the fundament of the common values and in adjustment with the rest of the free world. Today we have a kind of 'agressive isolationism' in the US; if you know what I mean.

[Sheep]

Even the most extreme Liberals I know (and being a college student, even in the mid-west, introduces you to some wackos) don't advocate rebellion, or anything else to damage the structure of the US. Sure, they might hate Bush (even though they don't know why [which I find delightful]), but they won't seriously try to install a Cult of Reason to completely remove all Christianity from anything and anyone. The most extreme conservatives I know don't advocate the killing of all brown people, or the killing of all gays as some would have you believe.

Not that it detracts from your point, but I know people who advocate all of these things (not all the same people, of course).