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Major Robert Dump
01-18-2006, 16:09
Forget left vs right just for a minute. Forget the war.

Instead what I want you to think about are the men and women in Washington who make $60,000k+ a year with outstanding benefits and comprehensive insurance, who get 20%+ of the year OFF work, who rarely pay for their own lunch, who rarely pay for their own travel, who have unlimited budgets for their offices, who have personal staffs of sometimes more than 40 people, who have amazing employment opportunites after they leave office because of being "in the know", who can call in sick just about anytime they want and not get fired, who can claim ignorance of the law means its okay to break it, AND HERE IS A BIG ONE-- WHO CAN LOOK ( AND RUN) FOR OTHER JOBS WHILE ON THE CLOCK.

Welcome to the Congress of the United States.

It's a ridiculous place. A place where the very people sworn to uphold the Constitution don't even read the legislation they vote on. Where bills become nearly unreadable because every tom dick and harry put an unrelated amendment on it for the sake of "getting things done quickly." Where they patronize our troops by gladhanding them about their "service to the nation" all while treating the military machine like a business, like running a grocery store. Where items are attached to bills out of trickery, so if a member votes no to a Education Funding bill because it had 37 other attachments the member disagrees with he will be accused of being "anti-education." Where changing your mind on an issue when new info or research comes to light makes you suddenly a "flip flopper."

Where else but the government can people do things like this at work without being fired? How funny would it be for an executive order making Congressional seats all pay by the hour, with a time clock and everything.

First, read this article by George Will. You may learn something about the way things work you likely were not aware of, particularly the last few paragraphs regarding earmarks and when they can be attached to the bill. You guys who rattle on and on about "my tax dollars" might find this especially interesting :

WASHINGTON -- Disraeli knew of a lady who asked a gentleman if he believed in Platonic friendship. He replied, ``After, but not before." For congressional Republicans, after has arrived.

After Abramoff. After DeLay. After the ``K Street Project" -- the torrid and mutually satisfying dalliance of Republican members with lobbyists. Now Republicans are prepared to be, or at least want to be seen to be, chaste. They are determined to devise reforms to steer Congress away from the shoals of sin, so they are receiving many suggestions from Washington's permanent cohort of Dawnists.

Those are people who believe that, given good intentions and institutional cleverness, an era of civic virtue will dawn. They are mistaken, but there are some reforms that, although they will not guarantee virtue, will complicate vice, which is as much progress as is possible in this naughty world.


End the use of continuing resolutions. Adopted at the end of fiscal years when Congress does not complete appropriations bills, continuing resolutions usually authorize the government to continue spending at current levels. If Congress had to get its work done on time -- if the only alternative were a chaotic government shut-down -- it would. Then Congress would have less reason to loiter in Washington doing mischief. Speaking of which ...

Forbid appropriations to private entities. Government money should flow directly to government agencies -- federal, state or local. And those agencies should be required to formally testify that local projects receiving national funding serve (BEG ITAL)essential(END ITAL) national needs. Appropriations that are, effectively, cash flows from individual representatives to private entities are invitations to corruption. Federal money directed to private entities was what ex-Rep. Duke Cunningham, R-Calif., was bribed to deliver.

So, end ``earmarks." They write into law a representative's or senator's edict that a particular sum be spent on a particular project in his or her state or district.

Jeff Flake, an Arizona Republican, has written to the House leadership that, ``With the number and dollar value of earmarks more than quadrupling over the past decade, pork-barrel spending has become an unfortunate hallmark of our Republican majority." Arguing that additional restrictions on lobbying, although perhaps needed, would be ``peripheral reform at best," Flake says, ``We first have to look at our own conduct." To do otherwise ``would do more to feed public cynicism than restore public confidence."

Often, earmarks are included in neither the House nor Senate versions of an appropriations bill, but are inserted surreptitiously and at the last minute in the report of the conference committee -- and the House rule against this is routinely waived. Flake's legislation, H.R. 1642, would prohibit federal agencies from funding any earmark not contained in a bill's actual legislative language. And the bill would allow a point-of-order to prevent the waiving of House rules against including non-germane spending -- earmarks not included in either House or Senate spending bills -- in conference reports.

The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario, Calif., reported last week that a $1.28 million earmark put into the transportation bill by Rep. Gary Miller, R-Calif., is for improving streets in Diamond Bar, Calif., in front of a 70-acre planned housing and retail development of which Miller is co-owner with those who are his largest campaign contributors. He says Diamond Bar requested the money.

No doubt it did: If the federal government is going to finance localities' infrastructures, localities will rush to the trough. And most House members believe that abstaining from earmarks would be career-killing folly. But when a primary challenger faulted Flake for never delivering earmarks -- and for that reason three of the five mayors in Flake's district endorsed his challenger -- Flake won easily.

Still, many Americans unblushingly enjoy in practice what they deplore in principle -- Washington's expensive refusal to limit itself to proper federal business. So, a final, and whimsical, proposal:

The public today is denouncing Congress for its promiscuous attention to the public's appetites for government favors. Although it is a principle of Washington discourse that no discouraging word shall ever be said about the American public, nevertheless:

On the door of every congressional office into which favor-seekers troop, there should be a sign with these words from the late George Stigler, the Nobel Prize-winning economist from the University of Chicago: ``I consider it a cowardly concession to a false extension of the idea of democracy to make sub rosa attacks on public tastes by denouncing the people who serve them. It is like blaming the waiters in restaurants for obesity."

Many people attacking Congress are also attacking themselves. And they are correct. Twice.




Now, boTh parties are suddenly vying for the ethics high ground and currently working on new ethics rules that do things that makes one wonder why they havent been already done say, like, 50 years ago. Its rules regarding travel expenses and meals paid by lobbyists, making foreign campaign donors more transparent, the allotment of pet distict appropriations, just to name a few.

so why? why now? Could iT be because the age on the net and the age of mobile communications makes it harder to be a sleazeball? Or perhaps its because theres nothing like a good ole war to make the public scrutinize the actions of its leaders. I mean, afterall, if you are going to send the underpaid men and women of the nation to fight for our "freedoms" then the least you can do is show up to work and not waste the same money you arent spending on the troops, right?

If any of you can swing it, maybe you should read "Parliament of Whores" by PJ O'Rourke. It's a little dated, 16 years old I think, but you will see that very little has changed.

And now for your homework, give me an example in your discrict or state ofd the very Thing I'm discussin here. I'll give you a one:

In Elgin, Oklahoma, a factory was being planned to manufacture a new kind of support artillery system That was still in the protoype phase. It was a bulky thingy with disproportionately large cannon on it, like the old GI JOE vehicle. IT looked ridiculous.

It was called the Crusader. RighT there on the Interstate outside of Elgin was a huge billboard that said "Welcome to Elgin, Home oF the Crusader"

The White House wanted the program killed and said it was an outdated piece of equipment that would be of little use in the war on terror due to its bulk and the protection it would require because it was very vulnerable to small arms fire.

Heres a link to a transcript and a CBS report (video at top of page) to some of the debates and hearings, i suggest watching it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june02/crusader_6-19.html#

Notice the most vocal defenders of the system in Congress were from Oklahoma, and notice how many contractors and employees were already building the system. The fact that the House voted to keep it alive really means nothing, in light of the tit-for-tat Congress pulls in doing favors for each others states.

Now, your opinion of the system may vary. But heres something to consider:
The new Factory for the Crusader was already being built in Elgin, a farm community of 1200 people. The Factory would bring 700+ jobs to the town. And Nickles, Inhofe and Watts were all major land owners in and around the Elgin community, but had not purchased the land until just before the project announced elgin as its home; All three had recieved the maximum campagn donations for their previous campaign and their next campaign from 17 of the contractors involved and small donations from most of the others, in addition to donations from the cattle owners in Elgin and all of the large business owners in Elgin; All three had family members employed with the contractors, as well as family stock interests in the project; And Watts family property management firm was already laying the framework for a large apartment community halfway between fort sill and Elgin. In addition to the officers who supported and endorsed the program, at least 14 were retired officers from Ft Sill who were also land owners in and around Elgin.

Funny, isn't it? How theres a fine line between national interest and personal interest? And matters of military strategy are in part decided by people who not only never served but pretend it has NOTHING to do with rewarding their constituents. Is this how The congress should work?

Watts and Nickles did not run for re-election the following terms.

Kanamori
01-18-2006, 16:42
Instead what I want you to think about are the men and women in Washington who make $60,000k+ a year with outstanding benefits and comprehensive insurance, who get 20%+ of the year OFF work, who rarely pay for their own lunch, who rarely pay for their own travel, who have unlimited budgets for their offices, who have personal staffs of sometimes more than 40 people, who have amazing employment opportunites after they leave office because of being "in the know", who can call in sick just about anytime they want and not get fired,

You do know they work terribly long hours, right?

(Not exactly an example of American politicians, but just last night in Parliament they had that silly bell around eight o'clock telling them they had to go vote, and many of the staff were still around inside westminster palace when I left at 11...)

KukriKhan
01-18-2006, 16:44
Excellent piece of work MRD :bow:

I once thought we'd fixed all this 30-odd years ago, after Watergate. But I understand that that was pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

For my local story, I just have two words: Duke Cunningham.

For the fix, I also have two words: term limits. Two terms per office.

Want a political career? Be a House Rep twice & a Senator twice = 20 years. No pension until at least 20 years as a Fed employee (heck, if they can't get re-elected, they can always be a mailman, or Secretary of the Interior). But pay them more in straight salary; we want them to make big decisions, pay them big bucks - no perks, tho'.

My $19.99.

el_slapper
01-18-2006, 17:00
You do know they work terribly long hours, right?

(Not exactly an example of American politicians, but just last night in Parliament they had that silly bell around eight o'clock telling them they had to go vote, and many of the staff were still around inside westminster palace when I left at 11...)

You know there are not much of them, do you? At least in France, the session can be very long, but very few deputies are here, coming & leaving. They finally don't spend much time in the assembly. And some cleaning has been done about corruption, but it seems that many nastiness still is there :embarassed:

Major Robert Dump
01-18-2006, 18:24
You do know they work terribly long hours, right?

(Not exactly an example of American politicians, but just last night in Parliament they had that silly bell around eight o'clock telling them they had to go vote, and many of the staff were still around inside westminster palace when I left at 11...)


Oooooh, a desk job with free coffee, free food, free gym, 2 hour lunches paid for by someone else, silk undies, top notch medical care and the ability to set ones own hours. I think most people would jump on that in a heartbeat and gladly work 18 hour days with pride. These guys aren't loggers, they arent dealing with customer after customer, they arent salesmen, they arent clerks, they arent doing any type of labor whatsoever. So they work long hours, most of which consists of reading, public speaking and traveling on "fact finding" tours. Sounds like a vacation to me.

Working a 70 hour work week is nothing if you can take the next week off. The vast majority of them are lazy clock milkers, they are tourists, they are looking out for number one. And any new member who wants to make a positive change doesn't have a shot in hell because they will be subtly punished, which is why you only see old timers ever propose sweeping self-reforms, and half the time thats even self serving or just a show for an election.

If the United Stats Congress were a business it would fail.

English assassin
01-18-2006, 18:52
they arent dealing with customer after customer

I don't know about the US but they do in the UK, only they are called voters. And its mostly complete tosh, I know one woman who complained to her MP because her washing machine broke down. And you have to sit there and smile and say how sorry you are and yes isn't it terrible that you are having trouble with your back passage and the doctors don't seem to care and did that really happen to your auntie Ethel oh I am sorry and after all she went through in the war too.

Nope. I have to put up with rubbish from clients too but (1) its not that rubbish and (2) they pay me and (3) I get weekends off. I'd rather have that deal than be an MP.

Devastatin Dave
01-18-2006, 19:13
And lets not forget that American politicians redistrict their areas in order to stay elected over and over again. Its a true sham, whether you are left or right. Good read Major.

doc_bean
01-18-2006, 19:42
The problem with democracy, when everything starts going wrong a politician can always claim it's your fault for voting for him.

:oops:

BDC
01-18-2006, 22:28
The problem with democracy, when everything starts going wrong a politician can always claim it's your fault for voting for him.

:oops:
True. Although a certain US president can't... Hah.

Brenus
01-18-2006, 22:38
“True. Although a certain US president can't... Hah.” Tell me more, I want name!!!!

Vladimir
01-18-2006, 22:38
I know one woman who complained to her MP because her washing machine broke down.

That reminded me of one session of Parliment I watched where some idiot PM suggested that they ban BB/pellet guns because one person in her district died from one. I guess no one dies from auto wrecks in the UK. Remember that these people are elected FROM the people in much the same way a prom king and queen are.

solypsist
01-18-2006, 22:56
"If we don't get our act together and we don't pass some major reform within 60 days of coming back, we're going to be the minority party," warned Rep. Ray LaHood (R-Ill.).

from this article:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-060117lobby,1,5173996.story?coll=chi-news-hed


Ah, the country we live in. Politicians have to have rules that say don't be a crook because otherwise it would be okay to be a crook. Nothing ever changes. It's been thirty years since Nixon and "I am not a crook" is still the Washington catchphrase.

Alexander the Pretty Good
01-19-2006, 02:08
So we'll have Congress pass ethics rules.

Inmates running the asylum, anyone?

:wall:

Xiahou
01-19-2006, 02:51
Forbid appropriations to private entities. Government money should flow directly to government agencies -- federal, state or local. And those agencies should be required to formally testify that local projects receiving national funding serve (BEG ITAL)essential(END ITAL) national needs. Appropriations that are, effectively, cash flows from individual representatives to private entities are invitations to corruption. Federal money directed to private entities was what ex-Rep. Duke Cunningham, R-Calif., was bribed to deliver. I don't know, I'd think there'd be some occasions where it could make sense to do this. Besides, all they'd have to do is allocate funds to another agency to in turn give to a private entity.

However, banning earmarks would address most of the concerns raised by that and many others- definitely a good move. Any 'pet' spending projects inserted by a legislator needs to be voted on by everyone as an amendment- not slipped thru in the dark of night.

Zalmoxis
01-19-2006, 03:32
I doubt there will ever be a solution to this whole thing.

Soulforged
01-19-2006, 03:39
This problems are not exclusive to the USA or any other country. I'm pretty sure that if you look at the administration of any country in all it's history you'll apreciate similar problems. It's just another proof of the real functionality of the state and it's organs, as well as a proof of what the state really is.

Many people attacking Congress are also attacking themselves. And they are correct. Twice.I disagree with this, but the article is nevertheless very informative.

Funny, isn't it? How theres a fine line between national interest and personal interest? And matters of military strategy are in part decided by people who not only never served but pretend it has NOTHING to do with rewarding their constituents. Is this how The congress should work?No it isn't, but there's the formal principle and there's the practical application wich works with real humans wich can be corrupted. I would say that you can't expect much more sadly.

Instead what I want you to think about are the men and women in Washington who make $60,000k+ a year with outstanding benefits and comprehensive insurance, who get 20%+ of the year OFF work, who rarely pay for their own lunch, who rarely pay for their own travel, who have unlimited budgets for their offices, who have personal staffs of sometimes more than 40 people, who have amazing employment opportunites after they leave office because of being "in the know", who can call in sick just about anytime they want and not get fired, who can claim ignorance of the law means its okay to break it, AND HERE IS A BIG ONE-- WHO CAN LOOK ( AND RUN) FOR OTHER JOBS WHILE ON THE CLOCK.Regarding this point I can tell you this for a close experience. A fire occured here and killed 194 people inside a club, I'll not give you the details on the case, but it seems that a functionary was involved, who apparantly received bribes (as governor) to ignore the security problems on the club. Now the parents an other people very close to the deads started campaining endlessly (well... they're still). The thing is that before that the majority of the Congress man didn't make a single act of presence in the whole year (not kidding), but after this they started to appear (the protests of the parents were sometime violents, that I must admit). Perhaps this was only to indulge the public, but then again isn't that one of the jobs that the Congress has? So if you want results, and pardon the expression, you should move your ass, simple as that no?

EDIT: Spelling. Also the protest was to create a comission wich will judge the functionary.

Kaiser of Arabia
01-19-2006, 03:54
I say we disband congress and make a Dictatorship of Kaiser of Arabia. That'd be sweet I think. ~D

At least it'd be more efficent, and they're be less government waste. Plus, things would get done. Like Gula...er...rehabilitation centers in Alask...er... a nice scenic place. Yeah, that's it ~D

Major Robert Dump
01-19-2006, 04:00
This problems are not exclusive to the USA or any other country. I'm pretty sure that if you look at the administration of any country in all it's history you'll apreciate similar problems. It's just another proof of the real functionality of the state and it's organs, as well as a proof of what the state really is.
I disagree with this, but the article is nevertheless very informative.
No it isn't, but there's the formal principle and there's the practical application wich works with real humans wich can be corrupted. I would say that you can't expect much more sadly.
Regarding this point I can tell you this for a close experience. A fire occured here and killed 194 people inside a club, I'll not give you the details on the case, but it seems that a functionary was involved, who apparantly received bribes (as governor) to ignore the security problems on the club. Now the parents an other people very close to the deads started campaining endlessly (well... they're still). The thing is that before that the majority of the Congress man didn't make a single act of presence in the whole year (not kidding), but after this they started to appear (the protests of the parents were sometime violents, that I must admit). Perhaps this was only to indulge the public, but then again isn't that one of the jobs that the Congress has? So if you want results, and pardon the expression, you should move your ass, simple as that no?

EDIT: Spelling. Also the protest was to create a comission wich will judge the functionary.


It shouldn't take people dying or people standing outside with pickets to get these freaking jerkoffs to come to work and do their job. One person "moving their ass" isn't going to change anything anyway unless that person has money or has media backup or the member can use the cause to celebrate a grand victory so he/she can brag about all the little old ladies he helped across the street.

I am in now way saying that public apathy isn't also a probelm, but thats an entirely different can of worms altogether.

I've seen high school kids at Taco Bell who take more real pride in their work than most members of the Congress of the United States.

Gawain of Orkeny
01-19-2006, 04:02
The real problem is we have no real choices. Both parties are equally corrupt.

Slyspy
01-19-2006, 04:29
At least he said the words "I'm sorry" in one context or another. It takes alot of courage for a politician just to say those words. Don't expect one to mean them as well!

Soulforged
01-19-2006, 04:39
It shouldn't take people dying or people standing outside with pickets to get these freaking jerkoffs to come to work and do their job.Yes that's what I say. But try to come here and make your point to your supposed representatives, you'll grow a bear before they listen to you.
One person "moving their ass" isn't going to change anything anyway unless that person has money or has media backup or the member can use the cause to celebrate a grand victory so he/she can brag about all the little old ladies he helped across the street. Of course one not, but you've to add that one to a list of possible "ones" (ie really pissed people).

Kanamori
01-19-2006, 08:54
You know there are not much of them, do you?

There were tons of people still in the building working, and it's quite a large building. All that I'm saying is that many of them are very busy and that all of those staffers actually do things.


Oooooh, a desk job with free coffee, free food, free gym, 2 hour lunches paid for by someone else, silk undies, top notch medical care and the ability to set ones own hours. I think most people would jump on that in a heartbeat and gladly work 18 hour days with pride. These guys aren't loggers, they arent dealing with customer after customer, they arent salesmen, they arent clerks, they arent doing any type of labor whatsoever. So they work long hours, most of which consists of reading, public speaking and traveling on "fact finding" tours. Sounds like a vacation to me.

Working a 70 hour work week is nothing if you can take the next week off. The vast majority of them are lazy clock milkers, they are tourists, they are looking out for number one. And any new member who wants to make a positive change doesn't have a shot in hell because they will be subtly punished, which is why you only see old timers ever propose sweeping self-reforms, and half the time thats even self serving or just a show for an election.

If the United Stats Congress were a business it would fail.

I cannot comment on Congress, but I know this would at least be a total misconception of the politicians here, and I tend to think that they aren't entirely different. After following someone around for a day, I have lots of respect for them here; they actually do stuff, and mostly beleive in what they are doing, even if it is a bunch of socialist labour stuff. I would encourage someone to see it first hand, rather than commenting on it w/o ever experiencing it.

Certainly, I think most of them like the lifestyle, since they do live nicely and they like what they are doing generally, but it's not a parade where you are handed riches because you know people.

I also saw the network they have though -- old university friends and such -- and truthfully, I'm starting to think that it is a few groups of old friends that run the world. (Of course, it's an exaggeration, but it's there to a smaller degree.)

doc_bean
01-19-2006, 12:56
It's the constant campaining and the PACs that are ruining US politics, Congressmen have to make thousands of dollars a day (in PACs of course) just to finance their re-election. Of course they need to whore themselves out to get that amount of money.

Major Robert Dump
01-25-2006, 05:08
Whats not being addressed in hydes legislation:

congress members
and their staffs who go to work for lobbyists after leaving their posts.

meals from lobbyists, paid travel from lobbyists and gifts such as permanent reservations at upscale dining facilities, things that can't really be gauged in value if done tit for tat; in other words the lobbyist paid for the reservations through some sort of transaction that can't be tracked like cash, therefore it cant be tracked to the lobbyist who cant be tracked to the politician. An example of this would be a lobbyist who owns part of an HVAC company having said HVAC do free
work on the restraunts walk-ins and cooling systems in exchange for reserved seating for whomever the lobbyist designates. Businesses trade with each other all the time because its good for business and good for avoiding taxes on sales, its not that difficult to throw politicians into the mix

campaign finance

earmarks

yay. wow, we're really gonna shake the tree with these new rules, huh?

/sarcasm off

Strike For The South
01-25-2006, 05:09
The thing is we need harsher penaltys for our poloticians. if there approval dips below 40% we put a bullet in there skull.

Seamus Fermanagh
01-25-2006, 05:31
STFS, its enough of a popularity contest now...


My version would require some constitutional ammendments but:

1. Terms of Office become:

HOR = 4 years; Presidency = 6 years; Senate = 8 years.

No term limits per se, but anyone serving in federal office: elected, appointed. MAY NOT SERVE CONSECUTIVE TERMS AND MUST BE OUT OF FEDERAL SERVICE FOR 1,460 days PRIOR TO RETURNING TO FEDERAL SERVICE ON ANY LEVEL. Federal employees (civil service and military) may serve in federal office after 730 days of separation.

2. New limitations on campaign finance will be made. Any candidate can accept any amount of money from any source. Two key limitations:

A) No contributions may be accepted after 31 October of the year in question (or after 1 week prior to a special election) through and including the complete term in office for that official.

B) All contributions must be published (amount, source, date) no later than 72 hours prior to the election in question. Failure to do so results in immediate expulsion from office and jail-time (3-5 years) for the candidate/official, her/his campaign manager, and his/her campaign treasurer.

Major Robert Dump
01-25-2006, 06:04
Um, howabout no campaign contributions EVER. All campaigns publicly funded like the old days, with a limit on how many times you can run to keep people like Sharpton and Buchanan from being career "candidates."

Commercials and Ads could be paid for as much or as little by PACS and lobbyists and other organizations, but it would be up to individual media outlets whther or not to air these since "fair time" would only apply to the candidates and the commercials and ADS that they were uniing and paying for with public funds.

Here's why politics will never be cleaned up as long as money is involved like it is:

The vast majority of candidates are rich. This means they have assets, and interests, and investments, and holdings, and businesses, and business partners. It is virtually impossible to seperate the man from the money here, no matter how many times the pol looks into the camera all gushy faced and innocent eyed and says "I'm being objective" or "my ownership of this stock didnt affect my decision making"

SELF POLICING DOES NOT WORK IN POLITICS BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

Oh, self policing works fine in business because there are fines, and customers to appease.

But not in politics.

Take the example of Tom Delay, who I am not saying is guilty, but take it as a basic example.....

...okay, you put your stocks in a blind trust to prove that you are not making high level decisions based on your financial interests. Blind trusts are supposed to be run anonymously, neither side knows of the other.

Says who? Says the politician? How hard would it be for the parties to stay in discreet contact with one another, considering both are millionaires and can buy discretion and silence? (well, not hard if its your brother, but still)
The fact is that the public believes things like this arent happening because the politician promises these things arent happening, and they have the means to subtley hinder investigations. I swear to god, half of Bill Clintons executive orders were meant to cover his ass in shady business dealings, but he says they weren't, and thats supposed to be the end of it?

Now, throw in the fact that in the case of Congress the person has to live in the district, and many peoples wealth is consolidated in or around where they live, so now you have "personal interests" being camoflouged as "constituent interests" when in fact they are personal interests. But the politician says they aren't, so they aren't.......

Oh, and the political affluant people have no way, shape or form of identifying with the average low, middle and in most cases middle upper classes of the public because they don't have any idea how decisions and government relate to the people, only what their committees and their staffs and their polls show them. They are detached, not all of them but most of them.

I won't even start with political families or else I won't stop, but families like the kennedeys and the bushs and the borens and the clintons are career politicans for a reason...

Strike For The South
01-25-2006, 06:07
wow this is good stuff. Much better than the bullet. Good job MRD

Divinus Arma
01-25-2006, 06:43
So MRD, just because someone isn't in a "labor position", they aren't working?

Sure, we need some house cleaning. But alot of these guys are working. And you may not think that what they do is work, but are they at home with their families? Are they at home playing Total War? No. It's still work. Just because many of them enjoy it, does not make it less so.

*cracks open a Newcastle*
*Hands to MRD*

I thought your post was so-so. An attack against the right veiled as neutrality. Good attempt at trying to raise the bar on discussion though. Ball-busting with facts in hand is always appreciated. Just call it like it is next time and forego the "neutrality banner".

Seamus Fermanagh
01-25-2006, 17:24
Publicly Funded?

My tax dollars going to fund Al Sharpton, or Pat Robertson, or Lyndon LaRouche?

Nein! Nicht! Non! Nuts! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Public funding is anathema. If the gal can't even get people to support her campaign, why in heavens should "the system" allow her to waste everybody's money by advancing a candidacy that cannot generate basic support.

Fairness is not achieved by some arbitrary "fixed amount" provided by a central source -- especially when its the incumbents deciding that amount. All efforts along these lines have failed with all sorts of creative twists and dodges being made to get money where it is needed. Abramoff is only the latest in a long historical line. Soros will "independently" spend what he wants and where regardless. Public funding and matching funds are a crappy idea.

Does this mean the "poor" average guy faces a huge hurdle in having a political career? YES. So what's new? You think Lucius Tiddlypuss, former decurion and capete census could win a Tribunate of the Plebs? As long as the system cannot prevent a person from trying -- Davey Crockett style -- to build support and make a successful stab at office, it's probably as fair as it is going to get.

MRD, your idea smacks of ENFORCED equality -- and, however noble the intention, such efforts always backfire.

Xiahou
01-25-2006, 17:33
Take the example of Tom Delay, who I am not saying is guilty, but take it as a basic example.....

...okay, you put your stocks in a blind trust to prove that you are not making high level decisions based on your financial interests. Blind trusts are supposed to be run anonymously, neither side knows of the other.
That wasn't Tom Delay.

Seamus pointed out alot of problems with publicly funded campaigns, but I would like to add the simple idea that it's totally contrary to the idea of free speech. People should be able to do whatever they can or are willing to do to get their message out. Artificially hamstringing them is restricting their speech. When it comes to elections you're talking about restricting what is arguably the most important type of speech- political speech.

I'm looking at you John McCain. ~:pissed:

BDC
01-25-2006, 17:34
Personal contributions are fine, it won't make any difference but at least you know who is doing the bribing.

It's something like £40,000 to get an OBE...

Major Robert Dump
01-25-2006, 17:38
How was my post a thinly veiled attack on the right? Because the people I mentioned int he first part were Republican? That happens to be the people we elected and the incident happened in my community, so I apologize for being better informed on that then the personal dealings of Tom Daschle. When my state lelects a Democrat -- which it won't because Oklahoma Dems are Republicans as well -- Then I'll gladly start a Thread bitching about them

If you think it was an attack on the right becuase I mentioned Delay, I still maintain that he, guilty or not, and his circumstance represents the slippery slope pols are placed on by expecting self policing. OR perhaps it's becuase the ethics rules proposed by republicans are a joke, but I can ssure you that anything prposed by the democrats will be equally ludicrous and self preserving

I never suggested they arent working becuase they arent in a labor positions. I know very well they keep long hours and face difficult decisions, but based on their compensation and the higher latitude they recieve when it comes to accountability perhaps these blokes arent quite as effective as they should be.

So Why not make Them hourly?



sigurd: it wasn't so much an idea I believed in as something I just threw out as an example. all that would happen is the candidate would use his or her personal wealth to contribute to PACS that then run issue ads. Any sort of public funding would have to disqualify certain people who try to run after getting less Than a certain % of the vote, with incumbents and people elected before the rules being grandfathered in, so it would be a system that would never truly be fair. Afterall, what in heavens would the DNC anbd RNC do wiTh all that money they have stockpiled?

Major Robert Dump
01-25-2006, 17:43
That wasn't Tom Delay.

Seamus pointed out alot of problems with publicly funded campaigns, but I would like to add the simple idea that it's totally contrary to the idea of free speech. People should be able to do whatever they can or are willing to do to get their message out. Artificially hamstringing them is restricting their speech. When it comes to elections you're talking about restricting what is arguably the most important type of speech- political speech.

I'm looking at you John McCain. ~:pissed:

I dont disagree that political speech is free speech, which is why banning "some money" but not all is a violation of free speech that favors some over others. But if all contributions to a candidate were equally banned under the law yet contributions to issues groups were still allowed with no restrictions, I think that would make for some good Supreme Court action

Major Robert Dump
01-25-2006, 17:46
Delay=frist oops

Kanamori
01-26-2006, 12:21
Nobody is stoping the message from being spoken, which would be quite oppressive. They are only limiting how much they can show their support monetarily, and it is universal, and not working anyway. Also, nobody is limiting how much a private individual can campaign for someone privately or through some other organization other than the one that the politician has, as far as I recall.