View Full Version : Best Shimazu Strategies? Tried the Board Game?
RemusAvenged
01-19-2006, 00:11
Anyone have any luck with these guys consistently? Is there a way to avoid being crushed in the end by the Hojo/Uesegi horde?
I use the port cheat by sending an emisary to a northern port and then send an ermy or two behind enemy lines to slash/burn and run just to get enough cash and keep them off my front.
Oh yeah and has anyone played the board game?
Is it as good as Axis n Allies?
Sasaki Kojiro
01-19-2006, 01:01
I didn't like the boardgame much *shrugs*
Best way to avoid the Hojo Horde is to get there fast. If you don't get there fast enough and don't feel like slugging it out you can always train a geisha.
What are the board game comments about...?
matteus the inbred
01-19-2006, 11:02
i think Sasaki Kojiro is referring to the fact that Shogun was originally a strategic boardgame loosely based on the novel by James Clavell...
with Shimazu (and i didn't play them much cos i found them too easy until you reached the 'Hojo Horde' point, then i found the attritional warfare boring) you should use a lot of shinobi (preferably from Tajima for the honour bonus) to destabilise and invade eastern Japan while your western armies are around the Yamashiro/Shikoku area. Start as soon as you can, concentrate on invading lightly defended provinces by sea and wiping out or appropriating heavily teched up Hojo (or former Hojo and now in the hands of other clans) provinces. This will remove the threat of meeting nastily teched up Hojo/Uesegi armies coming the other way, and will also remove the threat of a high honour Geisha turning up and wiping you out. Shimazu get lots of good heirs, but i hated having my best generals systematically hunted down.
It does lead to a war on two fronts, but your economy should be nicely built up by now, try fomenting rebellions and then bribing rebels. slash and burn to get the initial money, but then try to conquer and keep the pressure up on both fronts. good luck!
Anyone have any luck with these guys consistently? Is there a way to avoid being crushed in the end by the Hojo/Uesegi horde?
I use the port cheat by sending an emisary to a northern port and then send an ermy or two behind enemy lines to slash/burn and run just to get enough cash and keep them off my front.
Well, I think there's four ways. One: Practice and practice and practice or be trained by someone, until you are able to defeat the huge uesugi/hojo armies that appear at the far stages of a shimazu campaign. Two: Do a very campaign. conquerat least one or two regions each turn. Then the uesugi/hojo don't have time to grow that strong. Three: Train Geisha. Rebels never become so good. Four: Get an emissary in one of their port regions, preferably one with big income. (echigo, dewa, mutsu, hitachi, musashi, satsuma) And place a 960-men defensive army over there. Preferably with lots of Ranged units(preferably musketeers, with if you don't have them archers) and some yari samurai or naginata and 1 or two units of cav. You should be able to keep that region and don't need to burn farms or mines. (I would burn the military buildings though.. if you need more men send them via the port.) Of course you could also do this with several regions.
board game?? sounds intresting.. ~:)
matteus the inbred
01-19-2006, 16:49
the board game was ok...i guess. like any other small boy would, i took all the soldier gaming pieces out of the box (there were something like 500) and fought battles with them instead of playing the actual boardgame, but i remember having some good games using the proper rules!
the attrition solution is good if you can keep picking off heirs and daimyos in battle...eventually they'll run out and the clan will collapse. the Shimazu are good for this as they have lots of talented heirs.
if you're using the emissary/invasion route, try to bribe the army in one of the river provinces(can't remember which those are, Drisos looks like a man who knows!), then send in defensive reinforcements instead of invading the province and having to fight an attacking river battle...the AI will never be able to take it back off you if you stick naginata, archers and gunners behind a river and put a very good general in command.
geishas...i always regarded spamming them as cheesy, but use 'em anyway! they can still be stopped by high valour ninja...build these in Iga for the valour bonus.
the attrition solution is good if you can keep picking off heirs and daimyos in battle...eventually they'll run out and the clan will collapse. the Shimazu are good for this as they have lots of talented heirs.
are you sure? I don't remember that good but what I do remember that the heirs weren't really good.. at least I thought. (all rank 5 and 6 heirs are with oda, imagawa, takeda, mori, hojo and uesugi, I thought.)
geishas...i always regarded spamming them as cheesy, but use 'em anyway! they can still be stopped by high valour ninja...build these in Iga for the valour bonus.
Or Yamashiro. With Shimazu you'll probably reach that first..
Maeda Toshiie
01-19-2006, 18:15
1. I don't like to use the Geisha. Feels cheaty.
2. I don't like to use the port raid "function". Feels cheaty (also).
3. A less cheesy way is to use guns. Still considered to be cheesy by some though.
Shimazu economics, WE/MI version:
Build ports, in every province. Not only are they good at moving troops, they provide quite a bit of income (200 per turn per province). Even if you do not use guns, accept trade and build portugese trading posts (200 per turn per province). Next is to get churches out and a cathedral. The tithes add to your income.
There are only 3 provinces on Kyushu worth building farmland improvements (and they are in Imagawa hands initially).
Troops:
Smash the Imagawa as quickly as possible before turning onto the Mori. Ignore Shikoku first. Appropriate the iron sands provinces of the Mori and train troops from there.
Once you consolidate Kyuushuu there really isn't too much to the game. Push up through Iyo/Tosa to Kawachi, then go after whichever of Oda or Mori you aren't allied with. The key to beating Hojo or Uesugi holding key mountain provinces like Omi or Shinano and using those as fulcrums to push their forces back. It will be bloody, but as long as you're fighting in their breadbasket the outcome is almost inevitable.
For example, a large army in Shinano pins troops in something like 5 northern provinces that can not be used to defend the eastern river lowlands. Taking it should be a priority.
If you're having trouble with the Hojo Hordes, try suckering the AI into bloody river battles to thin out his numbers by leaving small garrisons of naginata and lots of archers. You might lose the province, but that's fine if he's taking 3-4x losses to make it happen.
I believe my best Hojo defanging happened in Musashi (playing as Takeda) wherein I managed to kill on the order of five thousand troops, Lord Hojo and two heirs over the autumn and winter campaigns. I lost most of my own army to do it, but the Hojo fell and I cleaned up the rest of the clans within the next 10 years.
As for the boardgame, if it's the same thing as Samuari Swords with a different name, it's quite good and I had a lot of fun with it in college before some jerk ninja'd my box.
matteus the inbred
01-20-2006, 11:30
are you sure? I don't remember that good but what I do remember that the heirs weren't really good.. at least I thought. (all rank 5 and 6 heirs are with oda, imagawa, takeda, mori, hojo and uesugi, I thought.)
Or Yamashiro. With Shimazu you'll probably reach that first..
you're right, they don't get super-talented 6 star Kenshin type heirs, but they get a regular supply (about half a dozen) of 3-4 star heirs...it's hard to kill the clan off by wiping out heirs. some of the other clans get few and far between and can't really afford to lose many.
true, i forgot the bonus in Yamashiro.
oh yeah...
you leave my ashigaru alone! <throws something pointy at Drisos>
Shimazu economics, WE/MI version:
Build ports, in every province. Not only are they good at moving troops, they provide quite a bit of income (200 per turn per province). Even if you do not use guns, accept trade and build portugese trading posts (200 per turn per province). Next is to get churches out and a cathedral. The tithes add to your income.
There are only 3 provinces on Kyushu worth building farmland improvements (and they are in Imagawa hands initially).
Troops:
Smash the Imagawa as quickly as possible before turning onto the Mori. Ignore Shikoku first. Appropriate the iron sands provinces of the Mori and train troops from there.
I would say, conquer the Imagawa lands, create improved farmlands in Hizen. Conquer Shikoku, build mine in Iyo and improved farmlands in Sanuki. And I would then go for the Mori conquering. (I used nagato as 2nd hq.. train naginata and heavy cav out there - not naginata's anymore since I patched to 1.02 though..) but that's just me.
And one thing about Cathedrals: you can only build one, normally. Gather a lot of cash and a few citadels, and start a few cathedrals the same turn. Doing this you will be able to create two or even more cathedrals, which will deliver some nice koku ~:) :yes:
Sasaki Kojiro
01-21-2006, 02:15
And one thing about Cathedrals: you can only build one, normally. Gather a lot of cash and a few citadels, and start a few cathedrals the same turn. Doing this you will be able to create two or even more cathedrals, which will deliver some nice koku ~:) :yes:
I remember doing that and only getting the koku from one cathedral?
NodachiSam
01-21-2006, 08:22
Hmm. How much does a Cathedral getyou? I've never really bothered because of province loyalty and me having a tempered fondess for buddhism and shintoism.
I remember doing that and only getting the koku from one cathedral?
hmmm. I could be mistaking of course, but I really thought I have more money doing this... Well I don't have time to check now.. Anyone busy with a christian campaign?:sweatdrop:
Sasaki Kojiro
01-21-2006, 17:28
Hmm. How much does a Cathedral getyou? I've never really bothered because of province loyalty and me having a tempered fondess for buddhism and shintoism.
200 koku per church.
NodachiSam
01-22-2006, 03:28
Wow, that could add up. I guess I'll have to give it a try.
Be shure to have some shinobi and low taxes ~;) ~;p
I was never really into using arq's. They have a lot of power, but I didn't manage to make them shoot more then 50% of the battles. They were even worse then archers in melee, and I didn't want to miss my Warrior Monks. So since my Shimazu campaign I never became christian anymore. I always welcome my ancestors the Dutch though :laugh4: ~;)
Maeda Toshiie
01-23-2006, 18:42
Port income: 200 koku
Trading post income: 200 koku
Church income (with cathedral): 200 koku
Thats 600 koku per province. Consider the meagre 100-200 koku farming income of Kyushu and Chugoku. When you go Christian, you certainly want muskets instead of arquebus. This plus the chuch income makes getting out the cathedral a top priority.
Guns can be very powerful, in fact too powerful in the expansion. The main key to using them is to 1) use them in numbers 2) use them in 3 ranks to have them volley fire. In fact, guns make river defense a cakewalk with plenty of dead enemies to decorate the bridge with.
NodachiSam
01-23-2006, 18:58
Be shure to have some shinobi and low taxes ~;) ~;p
I was never really into using arq's. They have a lot of power, but I didn't manage to make them shoot more then 50% of the battles. They were even worse then archers, and I didn't want to miss my Warrior Monks. So since my Shimazu campaign I never became christian anymore. I always welcome my ancestors the Dutch though :laugh4: ~;)
I do the same. The dutch and their muskets are always welcome.
Port income: 200 koku
Trading post income: 200 koku
Church income (with cathedral): 200 koku
Especially at expert, it would take me years and years to get anywhere near having these three in all regions.:juggle2:
Togakure
01-29-2006, 04:37
200 koku per church.
200 koku per church--and including all the churches in Japan, not just the ones in your provinces. If several enemy clans go Christian in a campaign and start building churches, the economic incentive to build a cathedral increases significantly.
I am under the impression that once you build one cathedral, the option to build cathedrals no longer appears in your building options. Hence, only one is possible. It's been a while since I've played SP though, so I could be mistaken.
As far as musket productions goes, I prefer the Gun Factory option. It takes an investment and a province with Port and Armory to build, but I like the +1 Honor and +1 Armor that muskets get (these bonuses are particularly nice for muskets). And, if you're playing Oda, they get an extra +1 Honor as they are Ashigaru. I should clarify that the +1 Armor bonus comes from the required Armory, not the Gun Factory itself.
Muskets aren't really needed in SP though. If I have them in an army, it's usually just a couple of units, which I use to inflict morale penalties on key enemy units at key points in the battle, or to draw out the enemy from a staunch defensive position. When I use muskets against the AI as I do in MP, SP battles become too easy, and hence, boring. I'm also usually 80% finished with a campaign by the time muskets become available unless I'm diddling around on purpose to enjoy super units (which, granted, is fun to do sometimes).
And, if you're playing Oda, they get an extra +1 Honor as they are Ashigaru.
Didn't the Oda get a discount (as opposed to a honour bonus) on ashigaru?
Didn't the Oda get a discount (as opposed to a honour bonus) on ashigaru?
That's kind of what I thought, too. I know the Oda have a province (forget the name) that gives a +1 honor bonus to all AY trained there, but I don't know if that bonus applies to muskets as well.
Didn't the Oda get a discount (as opposed to a honour bonus) on ashigaru?
Yes, Oda has the 'less-cost-thing' for ashigaru. But I think Toga was talking about honour because the Oda usually own Owari - a known ashigaru+1 region. The Oda HQ is mostly in that region so if you train them there...~;)
I am under the impression that once you build one cathedral, the option to build cathedrals no longer appears in your building options. Hence, only one is possible. It's been a while since I've played SP though, so I could be mistaken.
That's correct. But I thought of a little trick I used once: build two cathedrals the same turn. then they are still available on the list. In my Shimazu campaign I got two cathedrals doing this - but I don't remember if I also got twice the money...:juggle2:
Anyone have any luck with these guys consistently? Is there a way to avoid being crushed in the end by the Hojo/Uesegi horde?
I use the port cheat by sending an emisary to a northern port and then send an ermy or two behind enemy lines to slash/burn and run just to get enough cash and keep them off my front. The Shimazu is the easiest faction IMO.
The key here is to totally ignore the small island where the rebels reside. Just plug the province with one or so unit and the rebels won't invade at all.
Just kick out Imagawa, then beat Mori, Takeda and Oda as fast as you can. Also set your unit production lines up so that reinforcements are continuous.
Intresting that you say that - I think many people find Shimazu one of the harder campaigns... You must be a good economic tactician. I always had too few koku with the shimazu and ended up against a Hojo horde in the center of Japan.:no:
Togakure
02-01-2006, 01:31
That's kind of what I thought, too. I know the Oda have a province (forget the name) that gives a +1 honor bonus to all AY trained there, but I don't know if that bonus applies to muskets as well.
Oops my mistake. How embarrassing--I have indeed been away from my favorite game far too long. Thanks for clearing that up for the other readers, guys. The Oda get Ashi cheaper, not with higher honor. But: Owari, the Oda capitol, produces +1 Honor ashi, as does Tosa on Shikkoku. Neither of these can support a Gun Factory however, as they don't have iron sand deposits in them.
Togakure
02-01-2006, 01:55
I find the Shimazu a great clan to play if I want to play a combat-focused game--rapid expansion. I don't play them like I would play the Uesugi or the Hojo. Because of their location, if you attack fast, furious, and constantly, it's pretty easy to sweep across the board. I don't spend much on economic improvements, and only a bit on military improvements. I increase income by increasing territory, fast. I do build a lot of ports. This strategy also helps to get at the Uesugi and/or Hojo before they can achieve "horde" proportions. If I were to play a "how fast can I take over Japan" campaign, I'd probably try the Shimazu first, because they are geared for that kind of game (at least, they seem so to me).
The Shimazu's special unit (No Dachi), and the requirements to produce it, also encourage this approach.
Intresting that you say that - I think many people find Shimazu one of the harder campaigns... You must be a good economic tactician. I always had too few koku with the shimazu and ended up against a Hojo horde in the center of Japan.:no:Dris, just some simple points:
1) Low casualty rate.
2) Continue attacking (so you can fund more troops).
3) Continue reinforcements (so you can continue attacking).
Note: 2 & 3 feed each other.
4) Upgrade the rich provinces first.
:)
Sasaki Kojiro
02-01-2006, 05:43
Intresting that you say that - I think many people find Shimazu one of the harder campaigns... You must be a good economic tactician. I always had too few koku with the shimazu and ended up against a Hojo horde in the center of Japan.:no:
It's all in the speed...
If you start off attacking fast you will be going against smaller armies since your opponents won't have had time to build them. This means you need smaller armies, and thus you spend less on upkeep. You will come across less castles, which will also help you on time.
If you try and focus on economics you will make the game much harder. A year spent "building your economy" will add many years to your campaign.
Just A Girl
02-01-2006, 06:22
How do you guys manage to build gun factorys and geishas and stuff so easily and say there essential?
Ive always taken over the whole map before i can build any of those.
and ive never built a cathedral,
And i dont even build churches.
you can get arbusquiters wihout them,
just by agreeing to the barberian demands then building a trading post "WE" i think its a mistake becous in the origional shogun I was sure i had to build a Church before i could build a trading post
Any way I dont see why you need to buld a church or a gun factory.
Theres adequate money in the land without needing churches.
and if you play the game agressivley,
the game will be won before you manage to build a gun factory or geisha house.
matteus the inbred
02-01-2006, 12:18
I like using ninja and spies, it adds flavour, and i miss the cutscenes too! after all, the AI certainly uses them, and there's nothing more annoying than having a campaign wrecked by a rampant high honour Geisha which you can't do anything about cos you haven't bothered to build any yourself.
How do you guys manage to build gun factorys and geishas and stuff so easily and say there essential?
The farming income you get from having conquered nearly half of Japan before you come face to face with a big eastern clan means you can easily tech up to these things if you get them going fairly early on. But i agree with Sasaki, a fast start with Shimazu is very possible as all the clans you face early on are weak and divided (Imagawa, Takeda) or at war with one another (Mori/Takeda, Oda with someone, usually Mori). Don't usually bother with guns, archers are good enough, and churches are a waste of money you could spend on better troops.
It must be about my style that I find the Shimazu campaign so hard - I'm very slow, and all of you tell me to go fast..:laugh4:
perhaps I should try again sometime. ~:)
matteus the inbred
02-01-2006, 16:43
It must be about my style that I find the Shimazu campaign so hard - I'm very slow, and all of you tell me to go fast..:laugh4:
perhaps I should try again sometime. ~:)
nah, i think to just try and complete the campaign as fast as possible with no frills is missing out on the details and depth that make TW games so much fun...but that's (obviously) just my opinion. and yes, i have played campaigns where i've tried to get the victory conditions as fast as possible! :laugh4:
It must be about my style that I find the Shimazu campaign so hard - I'm very slow, and all of you tell me to go fast..:laugh4:
perhaps I should try again sometime. ~:)
I think that's pretty much the same reason I've always had trouble with the Shimazu as well. I'm simply not the type to wage an immediate war of agression. I will "blitzkrieg" if I'm sufficiently provoked and/or threatened, but I almost never attack anyone right away. I guess the Shimazu simply aren't suited to my playing style very much. :shrug:
I think that's pretty much the same reason I've always had trouble with the Shimazu as well. I'm simply not the type to wage an immediate war of agression. I will "blitzkrieg" if I'm sufficiently provoked and/or threatened, but I almost never attack anyone right away. I guess the Shimazu simply aren't suited to my playing style very much. :shrug:
OK there's at least one person who has the same... indeed Martok - Shimazu doesn't fit to my playing style... I bet you don't really like the Oda either?
OK there's at least one person who has the same... indeed Martok - Shimazu doesn't fit to my playing style... I bet you don't really like the Oda either?
Actually, I kind of like the Oda. I don't play them as much as the Hojo, but they're still rather fun. They're in an interesting strategic position, being in the middle of Honshu. Unlike the Shimazu, however, you don't always have to start attacking everyone right away. Oda's lands are decent enough that if given the chance, you can develop them first and build up your clan before expanding. This is assuming, of course, that the other clans leave you alone for a little while--something a wise daimyo never counts on. ~D
Actually, I kind of like the Oda. I don't play them as much as the Hojo, but they're still rather fun. They're in an interesting strategic position, being in the middle of Honshu. Unlike the Shimazu, however, you don't always have to start attacking everyone right away. Oda's lands are decent enough that if given the chance, you can develop them first and build up your clan before expanding. This is assuming, of course, that the other clans leave you alone for a little while--something a wise daimyo never counts on. ~D
Well personally I like developing my HQ a lot, so I can train elite troops... I thought you would dislike Oda for their ashigaru as you seem to like being slow and training strong units as well, but Oda has its positive point as well I see. ~:)
Well personally I like developing my HQ a lot, so I can train elite troops... I thought you would dislike Oda for their ashigaru as you seem to like being slow and training strong units as well, but Oda has its positive point as well I see. ~:)
Well the Hojo are still my favorite clan, as I also like to build up first just like yourself. The Oda are actually pretty fun, however. They usually provide a good challenge, but without being overly-frustrating. Other clans like Shimazu and Mori are simply frustrating, at least for me. ~:)
Yeah Shimazu is a true pain for me playing at expert..
but lately I had a very enjoyable campaign with the Mori. (expert, sengoku jidai) was a lot of fun fighting with the red buddist guys and upgrading my daimyo both in rank and in honour way too much ~;)
ik guess I am more suited for Mori then shimazu, as the campaign went quite well.. don't know why though.:sweatdrop:
I always preferred the western clans over the eastern clans - I like having that nice, secure Kyushu as Shimazu and all those armory provinces as Mori. One problem with Mori and Shimazu is that you can secure the western provinces with fewer troops, but once you move east, your front changes from a two-three province front to a four-five province front, and I find I often don't have enough troops to properly cover my front.
That can make for some fun defensive battles, though.
Actually, some of my favorite Total War battles were defensive battles in STW where I was outnumbered because I stretched my forces too thin.
Papewaio
05-04-2006, 08:57
Anchor your front at three provinces and then go deep with an expeditionary force with your best troops to go heir hunting. Go out in a loop of provinces and come back to your own provinces with your battered army, replenish and send them out again.
It's not about keeping provinces it is about destabilising your opponent to the point that he cannot attack you and keeping him like that long enough for your forces to change from holding a three province wide front to a four then a five. This way avoids being too static and losing valuable experience and it avoids an arms race where both you and your opponent are building up.
The Oda are great because of the way Samurai ignore Ashi running away. A two line army of Ashi spearmen followed by Samurai spearmen get all the benefits of morale and the Samurai step up if the Ashi run. The Samurai will at this point be fighting a worn down opponent and the Ashi get to run and fight another day. If you go the other way round the Samurai run, the Ashi run and both get run down at the same time. High honour Ashi make them worthwhile frontline troops as half the price as regular spearmen.
When on the attack I take one or two missile units, a couple of cav possibly only a heir and the rest spearmen. This is a force that is best moving forwards and can run down retreating enemies while being easily rebuilt in minimal upgraded provinces.
On defence I like to use Nags and missile units with a couple of spearmen in the back flanks to counter cav. That is when I sit tight and let my missile troops do the talking. A core of 6 or 8 gun units can sit all day until they run out of ammo.
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