MAKEDONIA...the land of aliens...

[hellenes]

Its quite strange to hear people stating that ancient Makedonians were aliens...
without any separate culture, language, religion, architechture...
Now you may think that im gone mad but if I state that they were Hellenic people will call me nationalist, mazochist, analyst or anything ending in "-ist"...
Its 14 years now that this bizzare propaganda has exploded and is growing day after day, and I wonder are the money of George Soros that much that triggered a US recognition?
What should we do for people open their eyes and understand that none of us cares about whether a country needs or not a name or a flag or whatever as long as they dont steal it from neighbouring countries...?
Its quite disturbing seeng people in discussions about various historical mods or topics concerning RTW stating that the "Makedonians" were fighting the "Greeks" when its clear from the archeological evidence that Makedonians were as Greek as the Spartans, Atheneans, Cretans, Corinthians, Beotians...
Now you can say "Do you have evidence?" yes I do:
From "A History of Macedonia"
by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
University of California Press, 1993

Page 3
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."

Page 4
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."

From "Alexander's empire"
by John Pentland Mahaffy (University of Dublin, Ireland)
G Putnam's sons, London, 1881

Page 8
"... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "

From "The tutorial history of Greece, to 323 B.C. : from the earliest times to the death of Demosthenes"
by W. J. Woodhouse (Universiy of Sydney, Australia)
University Tutorial Press, 1904, (reprinted 1944)

Page 216
" This was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrands of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians"



From "The Western Experience"
by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
David Herlihy (Harvard University),
Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997

Page 79
"THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".

Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):

"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."

Herodotus confirms that the Macedonians were people of Greek origin (Histories of Herodotus Book 5, paragraph 22.1)

"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. "

And later on (Book 8, paragraph 137.1) he verifies it:

"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea."

Also in the very first book of his "Histories" (paragraph 56.3 ) Herodotus states about the origin of the the Greek people :

"For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."

Thoukididis also verifies that the Macedonian kings' origin was from the Greek town of Argos (Book 2, 99.3):

"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."

Aristotelis, the teacher of Alexander the Great says about the rivers in Macedonia (Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 13):

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope."

Finally Isocratis states (To Philip, paragraph 32):

"Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors;"




On the language of the Macedonians

The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)

"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."

Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says:

"After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. "




On the religion of the Macedonians

The Macedonians had the same religion as the rest of the Greeks, they worshiped the twelve Olympian Gods.

Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"

"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

"He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."

Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2

"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."

Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6

"He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."




On the culture of the Macedonians

"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. ... The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)




On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

and later on he says:

"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)




What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:

"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."

Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)

"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "

Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...

"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"

(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)

"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:

"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"




What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."

and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):

"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "

Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".

Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):

"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."

The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)

"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.

Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).

"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."

Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!
I find it sad that nevertheless many will still be trapped in the Skopijan propaganda but as it is said its noble to fight even for a doomed cause...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

What should we do for people open their eyes and understand that none of us cares about whether a country needs or not a name or a flag or whatever as long as they dont steal it from neighbouring countries...?

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove since you allude to something but not enough for myself to grasp...

[hellenes]

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove since you allude to something but not enough for myself to grasp...

Well its obvious that if one called Mexico--> United States of America that wouldnt look that nice would it?
Its very embarassing to me as a Greek to have to prove that Makedonia was/is a Hellenic word, a Hellenic culture and Hellenic people...its just the same to prove that im not an elephant...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

So no one bar Greeks can use the word Democracy or the concept?

Texas and California used to be part of Mexico... that is why a lot of cities have Spanish names.

Likewise a lot of places north of Greek Macedonia used to be under the sway of Ancient Macedonia... so there would be cultural artifacts to the north. And vice a versa.

Also just because the Ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't stop them fighting other Greeks... after all it was City states vs City states.

[Watchman]

Oh ferchrissakes. National sentiment. Guess that had to pop up in these forums eventually too.

Personally ? I don't give a damn. Far as I'm concerned the fact the Macedonians had their own distinct kingdom, and AFAIK were considered some degree or another to be 'foreigner' by the peninsular Greeks, is quite enough of a distinction. Odds are they considered themselves distinct as well, if I know anything about how these things tend to work.

Nobody's claiming the French and Germans are the same bunch despite the fact both can trace themselves back to the more or less same cluster of Germanic "barbarians" living in the roughly same geographical region either, now are they ? Or the Finns and the Estonians, or the Norse and the Swedish ?

Just let it be, that's my advice. National identification is a *very* ":wall:" subject, and pretty pointless too.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

don't wory, I believe that the Macedonians were Greek.
:2thumbsup:

[hellenes]

So no one bar Greeks can use the word Democracy or the concept?

Texas and California used to be part of Mexico... that is why a lot of cities have Spanish names.

Likewise a lot of places north of Greek Macedonia used to be under the sway of Ancient Macedonia... so there would be cultural artifacts to the north. And vice a versa.

Also just because the Ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't stop them fighting other Greeks... after all it was City states vs City states.


Wait...thats the SAME thing that im saying...though if one hasnt got a taste of the Skopjan propaganda its not that easy to understand the level of misinformation and disgusting trasvesty of history that is going on...
If one comes and states that they are "Makedonians" without speaking Hellenic, being BULGARIAN themselves Im sorry but Ill object since people use posters like this with clear expansionistic views towards my country:

https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7429/a4422a9as.th.jpg (https://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a4422a9as.jpg)

Also there is a espionage organisation acting inside Greece called "Rainbow" that propages the existance of a imaginary minority in Greece that are "Macedonians" aka Bulgarians...
http://www.florina.org/

Hellenes

[Crazed Rabbit]

and I wonder are the money of George Soros that much that triggered a US recognition?

What does this have to do with it? Ole Georgy is a leftist that gave loads of money to try and take down Bush (unsuccessfully), but I don't know how he's connected with Macedonia and Greece.

Crazed Rabbit

[hellenes]

What does this have to do with it? Ole Georgy is a leftist that gave loads of money to try and take down Bush (unsuccessfully), but I don't know how he's connected with Macedonia and Greece.

Crazed Rabbit

"when the Macedonian government published a textbook showing a map of "Greater Macedonia," including large chunks of Greece, Athens was not amused. In a [January 23]1995 New Yorker profile of Soros, the special relationship between Soros and the Macedonian model of "multiculturalism" was explored:

"Nowhere has Soros put more energy and money into bolstering a government than in Macedonia. "George is the savior of Macedonia," his friend Morton Abramowitz declared. And the Macedonian representative in Washington, Ljubica Acevska, says of two separate Soros loans of twenty five million dollars, 'People found it difficult to believe. The opposition said, 'A country does not help you- why would an individual help you?' Remember, twenty-five million dollars in Macedonia is like billions here... the fact that Soros did it helped the government a great deal.'"

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j031901.html

Hmmm...

Hellenes

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Soros?

come on, that name stinks of olive oil, feta and pretty old buildings.
Come to think of it, George is a popular name with the Greeks too, isn't it?

I don't know if Soros is Greek or not but if I had a name like that I'd be willing to pose as one.

[hellenes]

Soros?

come on, that name stinks of olive oil, feta and pretty old buildings.

Isnt Soros a Hungarian or something?

Watchman

The makedonians are VERY different story to the Germans/Franks...its more like the Northen Irish and Eire...without the religious distinction...

Hellenes

[Watchman]

Uh, so what exactly is the issue here anyway ? "Macedonian separationism/nationalism/expansionism at Greek expense" type of scenario, or a "Greek panhellenic at Macedonian expense" one ? I haven't been quite able to figure it out from your posts thus far.

[bmolsson]

I don't think that Makedonia comes from aliens.... Even if there are some similarities with Chewbaca.... ~;)

[hellenes]

Uh, so what exactly is the issue here anyway ? "Macedonian separationism/nationalism/expansionism at Greek expense" type of scenario, or a "Greek panhellenic at Macedonian expense" one ? I haven't been quite able to figure it out from your posts thus far.

Greek Panhellenic?
Thats a good one...
The Greek Panhellenic Idea aka the Great Idea is dead 80 years now...after the M.Asian war.
Why you insist on calling the Bulgarian Tito's offspring state with a Greek name? What if I call Greece Finland? How that would sound? You may have your prejudice but it wouldnt harm if one opened his eyes and examined some evidence...

Hellenes

PS
The mere fact that the Greek government lifted the economic sanctions imposed on this Bulgarian state because of the use of the Vergina sun, and reestablished the trade and the Greek investments thus not leaving them to starve shows a move of good will that the Skopjian propagandists dont respect with their actions...

Hellenes

[Watchman]

Okay, it's still muddy. What exactly is the issue here ? Who're the ones making a big ultranationalist stink ? Greeks or Macedonians ? And to what end ?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

pah, I'd still pretend to be Greek, even if I were Hungarian.

[hellenes]

Okay, it's still muddy. What exactly is the issue here ? Who're the ones making a big ultranationalist stink ? Greeks or Macedonians ? And to what end ?

Its the Finnish and the Russians, or maybe the English and the Spanish, or wait the Germans and the French...im calling any nation anything that I like you might be angry or confused but thats ok you see I have been persuaded to believe that the country called "Greece" is inhabited by Germans or Russians or English (the Greek people have nothing to do with these nations but i can say whatever I want) or Spanish...
Its the same as you calling the Skopjan Bulgars "Macedonians"...

Hellenes

[Watchman]

I assume from that that the issue is some sort of Macedonian nationalism.

[hellenes]

I assume from that that the issue is some sort of Macedonian nationalism.

Its the Vardarska BULGARIAN state that has NO history on its own that is propagising its way calling themselves "Macedonians" and posing as such, with the backing of George Soros' millions. They have NO nationalism since they are NOT the "Macedonian" nation (which NEVER existed since it was part of the Hellenic group) they just trying to get in the Agean AND following the long dead plan of the communist Yugoslavian Tito's regime...

Hellenes

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

[solypsist]

http://tinypic.com/m8ze39.jpg

[hellenes]

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

"Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery"
Fixed...

Hellenes

[Watchman]

Ah. Thank you for explaining the issue. Now, is there someone else currently claiming the designation Macedonian, or might the aforementioned "Bulgars" as well start calling themselves that if they now really want to ?

(I do so loathe nationalism in all its forms...)

[hellenes]

http://tinypic.com/m8ze39.jpg

?...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Your first post was a bit lengthy.

And if a Canadian decided to call himself a New Jerseyian, I wouldn't be too mad. We all know it's just the Canadian's wishful thinking.

(That's a jest. Please don't kill me, Beirut, Goofball, and all you other guys. There sure are a lot of you. :help: )

[hellenes]

Ah. Thank you for explaining the issue. Now, is there someone else currently claiming the designation Macedonian, or might the aforementioned "Bulgars" as well start calling themselves that if they now really want to ?

(I do so loathe nationalism in all its forms...)

Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want...

Hellenes

[GoreBag]

What, did you get tired of flaming the EB forum? I see you still have problems separating ethnicity and nationality.

[hellenes]

What, did you get tired of flaming the EB forum? I see you still have problems separating ethnicity and nationality.

Im sorry if I insulted your delicate sight...
Would you excuse me?
Im just a Korean that will be a Swedish tommorow...

Hellenes

[GoreBag]

And no more coherent than in th EB forum, either.

[Watchman]

Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want...

Hellenes
I'd think they were pretty silly if they tried that, but so long as they didn't start squabbling over territory I wouldn't really care to be entirely honest. I consider most form of national identification to be largely artificial anyway.

[Papewaio]

Sorry Hellenes, but there is plenty of places in the world that are named after the conquours far after the time that the conquours have left.

Just check out the Commonwealth Nations of the world and you will find plenty of colonial names from Britain, France and the Netherlands.

New Zealand... that is named after an area in the Netherlands.

I have never heard a Dutch man complain about that.

Likewise the inverse is true, just because Melbourne in Australia has a large Greek speaking and Greek ethnic group it does not make Melbourne part of Greece.

Name Adm. C C 2001-03-18 f
1 Athínai ATT 745,514
2 Thessaloníki MAK 363,987
3 Piraiévs ATT 175,697
4 Pátrai PEL 161,114
5 Peristérion ATT 137,918
6 Iráklion KRI 133,012
7 Lárisa THE 124,786
8 Kallithéa ATT 109,609
9 Níkaia ATT 93,086
10 Kalamariá MAK 87,255

[Sardo]

You know, back when the Romans conquered our region, they called it Belgica. Then some German barbarians came and took the land for themselves. Some fifteen hundred years later, a new nation is founded on part of this territory and called 'Belgium', even though the inhabitants didn't really have a lot to do with the original Celtic and Roman inhabitants. I don't think anybody complained about that, though.

Many cities and regions today still bear their ancient names, even though the people living there now are not the descendants of the original inhabitants. The name 'Macedonia' does not refer only to the people who lived in that land in Alexander's day, it's what the land is called, and I guess the Slav people who came to live there didn't really see a reason to change a perfectly good name. It's not as if the ancient Macedonians are still around to take offense. In my very humble opinion, the Greeks ought to just suck it up and get on with more important affairs. Or will they next reclaim Syracuse, Marseille and Alexandria because of their Greek names?

And by the way, if our 'History of the Balkans' professor has his facts straight, many of today's Greeks aren't even descendants of the ancient Greeks (at least the ones living in Greece itself). Greece was settled by Slavs in the early Middle Ages and only in the 9th century did the Emperors hellenize the country anew by bringing Greeks over from Anatolia. Now, assuredly you know your own country's history better than I do, and could say wether or no this is true, but if true, should you then not give all your ancient cities new names?

[Red Peasant]

Tis true. When the Eastern Church sent missionaries to the Peloponnese in the early medieval period they needed interpreters to speak to the inhabitants.
I love the modern Greeks, they are a good laugh, but on issues that touch upon history and identity they become almost pathologically paranoid, irrational and nationalistic, even threatening.

[hellenes]

You know, back when the Romans conquered our region, they called it Belgica. Then some German barbarians came and took the land for themselves. Some fifteen hundred years later, a new nation is founded on part of this territory and called 'Belgium', even though the inhabitants didn't really have a lot to do with the original Celtic and Roman inhabitants. I don't think anybody complained about that, though.

Many cities and regions today still bear their ancient names, even though the people living there now are not the descendants of the original inhabitants. The name 'Macedonia' does not refer only to the people who lived in that land in Alexander's day, it's what the land is called, and I guess the Slav people who came to live there didn't really see a reason to change a perfectly good name. It's not as if the ancient Macedonians are still around to take offense. In my very humble opinion, the Greeks ought to just suck it up and get on with more important affairs. Or will they next reclaim Syracuse, Marseille and Alexandria because of their Greek names?

And by the way, if our 'History of the Balkans' professor has his facts straight, many of today's Greeks aren't even descendants of the ancient Greeks (at least the ones living in Greece itself). Greece was settled by Slavs in the early Middle Ages and only in the 9th century did the Emperors hellenize the country anew by bringing Greeks over from Anatolia. Now, assuredly you know your own country's history better than I do, and could say wether or no this is true, but if true, should you then not give all your ancient cities new names?

How do you know that we arent or are decendants of our ancestors? Is that what Im saying? Its very easy to make assumptions and vague statements without any clear knowledge of the cicumstances but my position remains:

"Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want..."

Papewaio
You cant bring the multinational colonial states in this equation, just because the English (mainly) colonists of the country called "New Zealand" invented an artificial nation of "New Zealanders" (same as the "Americans", "Canadians", "Australians") that doesnt mean that they have any distinct culture (to a great degree) and it means that they are just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities, the Balkans are a VERY different matter and with posters like that

https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7429/a4422a9as.th.jpg (https://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a4422a9as.jpg)

Which everyone in this thread pretends that havent seen, and with the Skopjan constitution at the founding of that state stating that there are "Macedonian minorities" in Greece that have to be "liberated" from the Greek supression...
Its very sad to see people turning a blind eye on a huge minsiformation campaign and insisting on a skewed view on history just in the name of a supposed justification of pure plagiarism...

Hellenes

[Idaho]

How do you know that we arent or are decendants of our ancestors?

I can absolutely guarantee that you are the decendant of your ancestors :book:

Some little country calls itself a name you don't like and makes a load of bold statements that mean nothing. You really think that Macedonia is going to attack Greece - a NATO country ?!?!? :idea2:

Don't worry about it. Go find another hobby.

[Sardo]

You're right: I don't have a clear knowledge of the circumstances. All I know is that in the region of Macedonia now lives a Slav people that has taken its name from the land it inhabits. You Greeks aren't living in Finnland, so I'd say calling yourselves Finns would be less legitimite than people in Macedonia calling themselves Macedonians.

I don't know wether or not there really are any Macedonian minorities in Greece or how much of a disinformation campaign is being waged by Macedonian authorities, but I would like to see you bring up some more evidence that they are claiming the ancient Macedonian achievements as their own. It all seems a bit polemical right now. That poster you linked - no context, no explanation, nada. I don't know what it's about.

But then I imagine few people do know what anything is about in the Balkans.

[hellenes]

You're right: I don't have a clear knowledge of the circumstances. All I know is that in the region of Macedonia now lives a Slav people that has taken its name from the land it inhabits. You Greeks aren't living in Finnland, so I'd say calling yourselves Finns would be less legitimite than people in Macedonia calling themselves Macedonians.

I don't know wether or not there really are any Macedonian minorities in Greece or how much of a disinformation campaign is being waged by Macedonian authorities, but I would like to see you bring up some more evidence that they are claiming the ancient Macedonian achievements as their own. It all seems a bit polemical right now. That poster you linked - no context, no explanation, nada. I don't know what it's about.

But then I imagine few people do know what anything is about in the Balkans.

Oh well if one country had a small portion of an ancient land with which ancients inhabitants the CURRENT inhabitants had NO relation, be it cultural, lingual or through ancestry would that give them ANY right to name their newly invented state after the name of the MAIN region that is in the neighbourghing state which current inhabitants have lingual, cultural and ancestrial relations to the ancient Makedones?
This link shows the espionage and sabotage activities of a Skopjan Bulgar group INSIDE GREECE!!! With clear expansionistic view into annexing Makedonia to that Bulgarian state...
http://www.florina.org/
The misinformation and propaganda doesnt end here:
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/
That poster is showing Makedonia as a supressed by the evil Greeks place that should be "liberated" by the "true" "Macedonians"=Skopjan Bulgars...
What about these?
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=1945
It is clear that the Skopjans are JUST Bulgars that are just pushing the Titoist propaganda in orther to gain access to the Aegean.
Why do they call their Slavic language "macedonian" when there was and is just a Makedonian Greek DIALECT?
There NEVER was/is/will be a "Makedonian" nation, no matter how much Soros spends and no matter how much brainwashing is going in the western world, if the Skopjans have the right to spread their poison I have the right to provide the andidote...

Hellenes

[Red Peasant]

:gah:

Someone needs a sedative, I think.

:nurse:

[English assassin]

Before we go into this in any more detail could we back up a touch and have a short explanation of why this is an important issue?

I don't have an opinion on macedonia and from a quick skim of the thread I don't think I want one.

[InsaneApache]

From what my Dad told me last year (he lives in Greece) the Greeks are getting upset that parts of the former Yugoslave republic are using the name Macedonia. The Greeks maintain that Macedonia is part of Greece, not Yugoslavia (or what's left of it).

Well at least that what I think that's what Hellenes is talking about.:inquisitive:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Is it like the English calling themselves British as well now?

I find that pretty funny. Mainly because some people are utterly ignorant about where that name came from and who it was originally used for.

I think I see where Hellenes is coming from though (I think).

[hellenes]

From what my Dad told me last year (he lives in Greece) the Greeks are getting upset that parts of the former Yugoslave republic are using the name Macedonia. The Greeks maintain that Macedonia is part of Greece, not Yugoslavia (or what's left of it).

Well at least that what I think that's what Hellenes is talking about.:inquisitive:

That sums up a decent part of the issue...
90% of the Makedonian territory is part of Greece the Skopjans just have 10% and 100% brainwashing from the former communist and current regimes...


Hellenes

[Watchman]

Right. They are brainwashed, you are lucid and rational... :dizzy2: Sure. The level of *that* argumentation is roughly "I'm right and he's wrong." Not a very analytical standpoint, I'd say.

The only part of the whole issue I can perceive to be something more than two groups of "patriots" arguing over precedence to something as irrelevant as a name is the part about "oppressed Macedonian minorities that need to be liberated" - this being the Balkans, I can see why that one could make folks a little nervous. I also seem to recall talk in the news about an international peacekeeping op in Macedonia a year or two back, so apparently there's some real trouble going around.

'Course, it is also perfectly possible the Greeks really are oppressing "Macedonian" minorities... Excessive nationalism tends to do that, too.

Someone feel like going and digging up some reasonably objective data about the issue ?

[hellenes]

Right. They are brainwashed, you are lucid and rational... :dizzy2: Sure. The level of *that* argumentation is roughly "I'm right and he's wrong." Not a very analytical standpoint, I'd say.

The only part of the whole issue I can perceive to be something more than two groups of "patriots" arguing over precedence to something as irrelevant as a name is the part about "oppressed Macedonian minorities that need to be liberated" - this being the Balkans, I can see why that one could make folks a little nervous. I also seem to recall talk in the news about an international peacekeeping op in Macedonia a year or two back, so apparently there's some real trouble going around.

'Course, it is also perfectly possible the Greeks really are oppressing "Macedonian" minorities... Excessive nationalism tends to do that, too.

Someone feel like going and digging up some reasonably objective data about the issue ?

Well I as a Korean will tell you that in Korea we have no problem here in Balkans, the Skopjans to the north are just looking for a Past because I think they dont like their real history and are just trying to find a better one, being a Korean I speak Greek, I listen Greek Music, eat Greek food...but hey I can take any name I want and claim any historical achievement I want, if I have a US recognition and plenty of cash to back my propaganda campaign...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

So what with them taking the name of an area that used to take up part of where they live? Take it as a complement.

New Zealand is named after an area the Netherlands... yet they are about as far apart as possible from each other.


You cant bring the multinational colonial states in this equation, just because the English (mainly) colonists of the country called "New Zealand" invented an artificial nation of "New Zealanders" (same as the "Americans", "Canadians", "Australians") that doesnt mean that they have any distinct culture (to a great degree) and it means that they are just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities,

Just an amalgamation... tones of racial supremacy there mate.

You may want to make a few quick notes on what the ancient Greeks achieved and how little has been done since by that area of land since and then compare the rise of civilisation at the hands of the multinationals.

[LeftEyeNine]

Out of curiosity, hellenes, don't you have any Greek relatives at all - is it only that you admire Greeks ? That's just a question, please don't take it offensive.

[Byzantine Prince]

The most important question is, does it matter? What good is it arguing with people( on the internet non the less), about things that are facts whether either side has been convinced of their argument. Does it change the truth? No. Can propaganda change the truth, no.

Can the truth be known? Yes, even in an abstract form.
Is Makedonia part of Greece(today)? Yes.
Was Makedonia greek in ancient times? Yes and no. Yes as in it fits the main culture group, no in that greek nationalism, just like any nationalism is a figment of the modern greek's perception. The ancient one was a little cleverer. :wink:

[Red Peasant]

The irony is that the ancient Greeks (not just the Athenians) hated and despised the Macedonians, no matter what language or people they were, or purported to be. Now they are kissing their historical arse as if long lost brothers, and claiming them as their own.

[hellenes]

So what with them taking the name of an area that used to take up part of where they live? Take it as a complement.

New Zealand is named after an area the Netherlands... yet they are about as far apart as possible from each other.



Just an amalgamation... tones of racial supremacy there mate.

You may want to make a few quick notes on what the ancient Greeks achieved and how little has been done since by that area of land since and then compare the rise of civilisation at the hands of the multinationals.

Thank you for reminding me the Politically Correct regime...I wont repeat the sin of stating the obvious...and BTW I didnt mean it in any racial way its just the reality or you deny that its an synthesis of many nations?

Red Peasant
Should Demosthenes who was a half Scythian be placed as the king of Athens and be treated as the expressor of whole Athenean people? What about Isocrates? There is NO evidence contrary to the evidence that the Ancient Makedonians were Hellenic. If Im wrong provide some quotes apart from Demosthenes and that passage from Arrian about the Makedonian dialect...
LeftEyeNine
That was a SARCASM pointing that as the Skopjan Bulgars can pick and plagiarise any name I can also change national names at will...
From my part as a Spanish I believe that the fact that Ive never been in Spain and that I dont speak Spanish or have a Spanish way of life/culture doesnt stop me from claiming that Im the only true Spanish...

Hellenes

Edit
I didnt mean to use the word "amalgamation" as it is used primarly by people that I dont like, what I meant was that there is a relatively short period of time that these nations were created thus they havent yet developed their distinguished cultural stamp, while in Balkans there are quite many distinguishing factors between nations because of the long history that predates them...

[InsaneApache]

To the rest of the posters here....

This is what they call a truism.

The Greeks are very nationalistic, as I'm sure members have noticed. They have their history and reasons for exclaiming that. They are a proud race and see themselves as the founders of the modern world. Right or wrong this is, to some extent, how they see the themselves.

Now where did I put my chipero? :inquisitive:

[Kralizec]

On the RTR forums, the maker of the Megas Alexandros mod got flamed by a couple of Greeks because in one of his previews he said that Athenians loathed Philip and the Macedonians. This very thread is another piece of evidence that you can't openly debate or question Macedons origins without Greek nationalists laying the crack down on you and acuse you of being a slavic or bulgar conspirator :inquisitive:

The Republic of Macedonia partly occupies the area that was ancient Macedonia. The history and to a lesser degree culture is firmly connected with that place, why can't they call it Macedonia? Belgium is named after a Celtic culture that lived there 1500+ years ago? Egypt is still named Egypt but is mostly inhabited by Arabs. Syria has very little to no connection to the ancient Assyrians. How is this different from Macedonia?
Of course, FYROM nationalists who claim lineage from ancient Makedon are shaming themselves. Just as Greek nationalists.

[InsaneApache]

That's the Balkens for you.

[Sardo]

I concur wholeheartedly.

Also, I would like you to show me any nation that is not, in some way or another, 'just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities'. European people are a mix of Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Slavic and probably a few other outlandish elements besides. Greece itself has had several ethnic groups settling it in its earliest history, only to be conquered or settled afterwards by Romans, Slavs and Turks. You can't just go about calling the Americans, Australians, Canadians and Kiwis 'artificial' just because their ancestors were from different nations any more than you can call your own people an artificial construction, in my humble opinion.

Aside from that, it seems to me that any kind of nationalism in the Balkans is extra dangerous - and silly. The Serbs and Croatians speak the same language, yet the ones are supposed to be orthodox and the others catholic, and so they divide themselves and kill each other. People living in a part of Macedonia name themselves after their land, and you get the Greeks going mad because they're so possessive of their Philip and Alexander, nevermind the fact that those guys aren't around anymore and there's an entirely different situation, politically, demographically, religiously, anythingly. It all seems very pointless to me.

That said, I should look into this thread again by the 1st of next month - exam time for that Balkan History course I mentioned. This is very illustrative of the things we were told in the last few lessons. :dizzy2:

[Byzantine Prince]

Why was I ignored? I actually made sense today. :inquisitive:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've learned to never ever discuss issues of nationhood with anybody southeast of Vienna.

From Hungary to Turkey, within seconds they'll throw a few dozen maps and links at you, all proving that the whole Balkan peninsula was once theirs, that it should all be really theirs now and that all the others are lying usurpers.
Followed by them claiming that they invented modern civilization as we know it yet don't recieve their due gratitude for it. :wall:

Then they'll bitch at you for not seeing things quite the way they do.

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs BP so he doesn't feel ignored* :knuddel:

[LeftEyeNine]

I've learned to never ever discuss issues of nationhood with anybody southeast of Vienna.

From Hungary to Turkey, within seconds they'll throw a few dozen maps and links at you, all proving that the whole Balkan peninsula was once theirs, that it should all be really theirs now and that all the others are lying usurpers.
Followed by them claiming that they invented modern civilization as we know it yet don't recieve their due gratitude for it. :wall:

Then they'll bitch at you for not seeing things quite the way they do.

Nah, Turks have nothing to do with Balkans anymore, at least I don't :tongue2: .. Hey, we love Albanians and Bosnians particularly though :2thumbsup:

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs LEN so he won't take it personally* :knuddel:

[LeftEyeNine]

*Hugs L4F back before DevDave arrives around* :knuddel: :book:

P.S. Seriously, as a resident in Turkey as well, I did not come across with any claims by nor ultra-nationalists neither any other people about Balkans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs L4F back before DevDave arrives around* :knuddel: Yes, but you had better be going now.

My dirty little Davey is very jealous of other guys. :biker:

[LeftEyeNine]

Yes, but you had better be going now.

My dirty little Davey is very jealous of other guys. :biker:

Et Tu, Louis ?! :no:

[Slyspy]

Ah Hellenes on his barely comprehensible band-wagon again lol! Can we all start taking about how Alexander the Great as a homosexual and, worse, not even Greek? Hellenes loves that particular theme. Not sure why he feels the need to post his arguments here though. He may not be the only Greek on the board (I'm not sure he is Greek himself) but there is a definite lack of interest generally.

Hellenes mate, no one is interested.

[Reenk Roink]

Gah dude, you don't have to flame him, people are responding to the post, so their is some "caring" going on. Now, I don't agree with his hypothesis, but it's still interesting (to a point).

[Slyspy]

It is a bit of a flame, I agree. But those of us who have seen these rants before know what to expect: poor or non-existent scholarship, quotes from a single heavily biased source, poorly thought out comparisons with other nations and general nationalistic paranoia. Keeps us entertained though. Look, I got two posts out of it!

PS

I have no vested interest in any Greek/Macedonian sparring. The first side to put forward a decent argument (or even to explain what exactly the argument is about and why it is so important) would probably get my support. This being the Balkans, I am still waiting!

[Spetulhu]

Uh, so what exactly is the issue here anyway ? "Macedonian separationism/nationalism/expansionism at Greek expense" type of scenario, or a "Greek panhellenic at Macedonian expense" one ? I haven't been quite able to figure it out from your posts thus far.

IIRC the Greeks were quite upset that someone would use the name of Macedonia outside Greece. They've got a province by that name already.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I love the Balkans and their people

:2thumbsup: ~:pat:

[Byzantine Prince]

You shouldn't. We will only hate you in return. :skull: :2thumbsup: :skull: :2thumbsup: :skull:

[A.Saturnus]

Meaning is defined by use.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I love you anyway.

Even the ones who don't love me back.

Because you are all crazy, crazy in a proper way rather than a wacky, zany way.

~:grouphug:

[Byzantine Prince]

Meaning is defined by use.
Ante Makedoneusou! :dizzy2:

[GoreBag]

Gah dude, you don't have to flame him,

Disagree.

[Papewaio]

Meaning is defined by use.

Form follows function, and beauty follows both combined?

[A.Saturnus]

Form follows function, and beauty follows both combined?

I see yours and raise an "all lust wants eternity".

No, what I meant was that the name "Macedonia" is nowadays used to describe a nation north of Greece as well as a part of Greece. It´s perfectly possible for a name to label two entities as well as a different entity as thousands of years ago. Since the use of "Macedonia" defines it's meaning, it's pointless to argue that that country can't have that name. It does, and one should accept that.

[Papewaio]

I see yours and raise an "all lust wants eternity".



"Still glides the Stream, and shall for ever glide;

The Form remains, the Function never dies.” ~ William Wordsworth

[hellenes]

I see yours and raise an "all lust wants eternity".

No, what I meant was that the name "Macedonia" is nowadays used to describe a nation north of Greece as well as a part of Greece. It´s perfectly possible for a name to label two entities as well as a different entity as thousands of years ago. Since the use of "Macedonia" defines it's meaning, it's pointless to argue that that country can't have that name. It does, and one should accept that.

A country that has to do with ancient Makedonia as I have to do with Samoa? A country that insits on expansionistic and "liberating" propaganda of global scale? The 10% of the ancient Makedonia that is part of Skopje doesnt give them ANY right to name their country and themselves "Macedonians", there are over 2,000,000 Makedonians in Greece at present day that speak the continiouation of the Ancient Greek language and are Greek as the Ancient Makedonians were, should they start speaking bulgarian?

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

A country that has to do with ancient Makedonia as I have to do with Samoa?


Well if you are Korean then there is a link. The Somoans are descended from a population that was pushed out of North East asia by the current crop of Asians.



A country that insits on expansionistic and "liberating" propaganda of global scale?

I have never even heard of present day Yugoslavia Macedonian wanting to take over the world.



The 10% of the ancient Makedonia that is part of Skopje doesnt give them ANY right to name their country and themselves "Macedonians", there are over 2,000,000 Makedonians in Greece at present day that speak the continiouation of the Ancient Greek language and are Greek as the Ancient Makedonians were, should they start speaking bulgarian?

Hellenes

There is no requirement in the world that the name of a land has to be based on the majority inhabitants gene pool, cultural inheritance, or the lands location. In fact quite a few countries have names that come from afar and named by a group that isn't in the gene pool majority... USA... United States of America... America is neither a native word or an English word. New Zealand... Zealand is an English translation of a Dutch word.

"The name Australia is derived from the Latin australis, meaning southern. " Do we see Italians complaining about the use of Australia by non-Italians?

It is a social phenomena that words transcend the languages of their birth. There are plenty of words in English that come from other lands. Do the speakers of English now have to give back those loan words.

[Quietus]

I believe this is about "Macedonia" being used as name? Tough to argue with the Greeks since they quite ultra-nationalistic (no negative connotation attached, for a lack of a better term, and since nationalistic is an understatement).


Meaning is defined by use. Very true, since the system of Language is just an invention anyway. Thus, dictionaries are regularly updated.

[Meneldil]

Ok, let's use a very similar issue :

A while ago, Franks invade Gaul. They eventually ruled the country, although they were a tiny minority. However, after a lot of weird events, people from this country decided to name it 'France' (which is kinda similar to the word 'Franks', but I think you found that by yourself). Do the germans keep complaining about that ?

I think it's time people from the Balkans give up with their crappy war mongering nationalism.

[hellenes]

Well if you are Korean then there is a link. The Somoans are descended from a population that was pushed out of North East asia by the current crop of Asians.



I have never even heard of present day Yugoslavia Macedonian wanting to take over the world.



There is no requirement in the world that the name of a land has to be based on the majority inhabitants gene pool, cultural inheritance, or the lands location. In fact quite a few countries have names that come from afar and named by a group that isn't in the gene pool majority... USA... United States of America... America is neither a native word or an English word. New Zealand... Zealand is an English translation of a Dutch word.

"The name Australia is derived from the Latin australis, meaning southern. " Do we see Italians complaining about the use of Australia by non-Italians?

It is a social phenomena that words transcend the languages of their birth. There are plenty of words in English that come from other lands. Do the speakers of English now have to give back those loan words.

Im not a Korean It was a sarcasm that I tried to demonstrate the absurdity of anyone going around claiming any nationality/heritage/name they want and saying that the original nationals are fake.
What I meant was that they have the PROPAGANDA on global scale that they should liberate (as the poster shows) some "Macedonians"(in their mind Bulgars) in Greece that are being suppressed by the evil Greek people and government(my links show that).
Again Colonial states are multinational, there is no territiorial geopolitical historical contact that would make any original "Australians" (that dont exist) to be threatened in any way to be "liberated" as the Skopjan Bulgars try to push the whole story of how the Ancient Makedonians were not Hellenic (as Hellenic as Atheneans, Spartans, Cretans were) and that the fact that they are SLAVS and that they have NOTHING to do with Makedonia or anything that name represents doesnt stop them from claiming the decendant (i dont understand this one if they have no cultural links with teh ancient Makedones) of Alexander and Phillip.
Why these people are ashamed to identify themselves? Why they dont say that they are Bulgars/Slavs etc? Dont they have their own history rather than take another countries history and claim other rcountry's historical figures? Why they call their language "Macedonian"? Do they speak Greek?
Its easy to label and call names (thats not you Papewaio Im speaking in general) rather than try to understand the matter in depth and view the matter from all angles.
I know that there are reasonable people in Skopje that know that they are Slavs/Bulgars, that know that their whole economy depends on Greek investments, and that any tensions wouldnt benefit anyone but unfortunately they are getting drowned by the Titoist maniacs that go around screaming that they are not Slavs and that they are decendants of Alexander...

Hellenes

[Kralizec]

What the hell does Joseph Tito have to with it?

So your beef is with ultra nationalists who claim that the people of the FYROM are descendents of Philip's and Alexanders Makedonia. And who think that it's their mission to "liberate" the Greek province of Macedonia. That's understandable, but not an issue if these nationalists are just a rarity.

Now you're going as far as claiming that this is mainstream thought in the FYROM. Show us some graphs or stats to enforce this claim, showing us a poster isn't going to cut it.

[Red Peasant]

This the kind of dangerous bollocks that starts wars. How did Greece get into the EU with these medieval attitudes? :no:

[Watchman]

For the record natinalism isn't a very Medieval phenomenom (neither are witch-hunts; how come about everything negative gets dubbed "medieval" ?). Try 1800s or thereaobuts and later.

[hellenes]

This the kind of dangerous bollocks that starts wars. How did Greece get into the EU with these medieval attitudes? :no:

Its sad to see people resenting to labelling and name calling without providing any arguments or contributing to the discussion. :no: :no: :no:
Your credibility wont improve by simply aligning with the whole politically correct regime.

Hellenes

[InsaneApache]

This the kind of dangerous bollocks that starts wars. How did Greece get into the EU with these medieval attitudes?

Socialism. Pure and simple. The destruction of the 'nation state' is central to this. Welcome to the EU. :laugh4:

[A.Saturnus]

A country that has to do with ancient Makedonia as I have to do with Samoa? A country that insits on expansionistic and "liberating" propaganda of global scale? The 10% of the ancient Makedonia that is part of Skopje doesnt give them ANY right to name their country and themselves "Macedonians", there are over 2,000,000 Makedonians in Greece at present day that speak the continiouation of the Ancient Greek language and are Greek as the Ancient Makedonians were, should they start speaking bulgarian?

Hellenes

Did I say they should speak Bulgarian? Any expantionistic tendencies are unjustified and no one needs to be liberated. But that country is called Macedonia. Two million people have "Macedonian" in their passport and there´s no reason to change that because of nationalistic sentiments on either side. You do not need a right to name your country this or that, only a habit.
Look, you call me Saturnus. Why do you do that? I'm neither Italian nor a planet. It's just my name and I'm known by it. There's absolutely no issue.

If you're outraged by propaganda that is threatening the integrity of the Greek nation, fine with me. But please distinguish between what's the issue and what not. And the name "Macedonia" isn't the issue.

[Pindar]

I see yours and raise an "all lust wants eternity".

No, what I meant was that the name "Macedonia" is nowadays used to describe a nation north of Greece as well as a part of Greece. It´s perfectly possible for a name to label two entities as well as a different entity as thousands of years ago. Since the use of "Macedonia" defines it's meaning, it's pointless to argue that that country can't have that name. It does, and one should accept that.


Good quote. Good post.

[A.Saturnus]

Good quote. Good post.

You praise me? Are you feeling alright? ~;)

[Pindar]

You praise me? Are you feeling alright? ~;)

I give credit where it is due. You should stop wearing eye liner though.:kiss2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

If you're outraged by propaganda that is threatening the integrity of the Greek nation, fine with me. But please distinguish between what's the issue and what not. And the name "Macedonia" isn't the issue.I've always understood the outrage to be based mainly on the fact that by choosing the name of Macedonia, 'FYROM' appropriated the Macedonian past, especially it's fifteen minutes of fame under Alexander the Great.
That their indignation is about the fact that a people who are not the descendants of the Macedonians we know from our history books now bolster their national pride with symbols that they've usurped from the Greeks. That Macedonian tourist agencies advertise their country with slogans like 'visit the homeland of Alexander!'

To a certain degree, and in defense of Hellenes, I get their point. But the point you made is much better.

But this is the Balkans, that crossroads of continents that refuses to accept itself as the melting pot it is. Where old feuds are neither forgiven nor forgotten and where national pride seems synonimous to outrage, mistrust and bitter historical grievances.

To use Meneldil's analogy, it does seem a bit akin to Germany insisting on France calling herself by the bizarre name of 'the former Gaulish kingdom of the Franks'.

Then again, France and Germany have gone to war with each other over less. It did take Western Europe 1500 years too to realise that people like you and I have got better things to do with our lives.

[Goofball]

Well its obvious that if one called Mexico--> United States of America that wouldnt look that nice would it?
Its very embarassing to me as a Greek to have to prove that Makedonia was/is a Hellenic word, a Hellenic culture and Hellenic people...its just the same to prove that im not an elephant...

Hellenes

hellenes, I've seen you going on about this for some time now, trying to prove your point that the Macedons were a greek culture. Since you keep missing the most obvious proof that you could use to support your point of view, I'm going to go ahead and point it out to you, in hopes that you'll let this issue rest:

As any avid RTW player can tell you, when you are playing as the Greek Cities and you capture a Macedonian city, you can simply occupy the city rather than enslaving or exterminating the population, and you will suffer no culture penalty.

DUH.....

:wall:

[hellenes]

I've always understood the outrage to be based mainly on the fact that by choosing the name of Macedonia, 'FYROM' appropriated the Macedonian past, especially it's fifteen minutes of fame under Alexander the Great.
That their indignation is about the fact that a people who are not the descendants of the Macedonians we know from our history books now bolster their national pride with symbols that they've usurped from the Greeks. That Macedonian tourist agencies advertise their country with slogans like 'visit the homeland of Alexander!'

To a certain degree, and in defense of Hellenes, I get their point. But the point you made is much better.

But this is the Balkans, that crossroads of continents that refuses to accept itself as the melting pot it is. Where old feuds are neither forgiven nor forgotten and where national pride seems synonimous to outrage, mistrust and bitter historical grievances.

To use Meneldil's analogy, it does seem a bit akin to Germany insisting on France calling herself by the bizarre name of 'the former Gaulish kingdom of the Franks'.

Then again, France and Germany have gone to war with each other over less. It did take Western Europe 1500 years too to realise that people like you and I have got better things to do with our lives.

None in Greece argues any 100% genetic decendant from the ancient Hellenes, what we argue is that since ancient Makedones were Greek, their language was a Greek dialect and their culture was Greek, in orther to one be named Makedonian doesnt have to have any magical right just by possesing or being born on the 10% of the Ancient Makedonian territory, one has to pay homage and endorse the culture and the continuouation of the language that Alexander and Phillipos had.
The whole issue is far more complicated than a mere naming, and even that should represent and reflect people's way of life and cultural/ligual character.
Why the Skopjans dont want to accept their real identity/past is quite baffling to me.


Hellenes

[Papewaio]

None in Greece argues any 100% genetic decendant from the ancient Hellenes, what we argue is that since ancient Makedones were Greek, their language was a Greek dialect and their culture was Greek, in orther to one be named Makedonian doesnt have to have any magical right just by possesing or being born on the 10% of the Ancient Makedonian territory, one has to pay homage and endorse the culture and the continuouation of the language that Alexander and Phillipos had.
The whole issue is far more complicated than a mere naming, and even that should represent and reflect people's way of life and cultural/ligual character.
Why the Skopjans dont want to accept their real identity/past is quite baffling to me.


Hellenes

Sorry mate but virtually every other modern country in the world does not use this level of onus on what they are named. So why should modern Macedonia be held to such a rigorous level of criteria on what it can be named while the rest of the worlds countries do not and will not stand to such pedantic ideas.

Any country in the world could have been named Macedonia. There is no requirement that a countries name be tied to the current culture or the genetic inhabitants of the region.

Are you going to demand that the United States of America change its name because it is named after an Italian but it is not in Italy nor dominated culturally by Italians?

[hellenes]

Sorry mate but virtually every other modern country in the world does not use this level of onus on what they are named. So why should modern Macedonia be held to such a rigorous level of criteria on what it can be named while the rest of the worlds countries do not and will not stand to such pedantic ideas.

Any country in the world could have been named Macedonia. There is no requirement that a countries name be tied to the current culture or the genetic inhabitants of the region.

Are you going to demand that the United States of America change its name because it is named after an Italian but it is not in Italy nor dominated culturally by Italians?

Well either Im not clarifying it correctly or we simply cannot communicate...
The Skopjans dont simply name their country "Macedonia" they name themselves, "Macedonians" name their Bulgarian language "Macedonian", and insist on prresenting their Bulgarian selves as "Macedonian" which the same as for me claiming to be the pope.
The USA describe the region and the political entity that was named by convention and NOT by any inhabitant, no to mention that its a Colonial state that was pretty much shaped without any prolonged historical proccess.
What about the 2.000.000 Makedones that speak Greek and ARE Greek as the ancients were (in the cultural lingual sence), why should the Bulgarians that happens to have 10% of ancient Makedonian land, name their newly founded state after the name of a NEIGHBOURGHING region?
This is Balkans and the Kossovo paradigm is right in front of our eyes, what would happen if a US administration decided to liberate the "opressed" by the Greeks "Macedonians"? I know its a bit exagerrated but the reality sometimes surpasess even the wildest fantasy.
The cash that George Soros has thrown into this must have resulted in a quite succesful propaganda, If you consider me to be an evil ultranationalist
that is depriving a small country of a name then you cleary are unaware of the disgusting Skopjan misinformation and propaganda.

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

The oldest caterpillar does not make the most beautiful butterfly.

[Redleg]

Well either Im not clarifying it correctly or we simply cannot communicate...
The Skopjans dont simply name their country "Macedonia" they name themselves, "Macedonians" name their Bulgarian language "Macedonian", and insist on prresenting their Bulgarian selves as "Macedonian" which the same as for me claiming to be the pope.

Not at all - they can claim that they are Macedonians because there is not a body of cardinals that must elected them to that name. They can call their nation that name until such a time that a nation with a stronger claim to the name comes about. And then they most likely will have to fight a war over which nation gets to remain Macedonia and which one becomes a vassal state under Macedonia.

However to claim that you are the pope means that you have to face that body and get elected. The comparison is mote.



The USA describe the region and the political entity that was named by convention and NOT by any inhabitant, no to mention that its a Colonial state that was pretty much shaped without any prolonged historical proccess.

You know you just defeated your complaint about Macedonia with this comment. :laugh4:



What about the 2.000.000 Makedones that speak Greek and ARE Greek as the ancients were (in the cultural lingual sence), why should the Bulgarians that happens to have 10% of ancient Makedonian land, name their newly founded state after the name of a NEIGHBOURGHING region?

See your above statement about the United States.



This is Balkans and the Kossovo paradigm is right in front of our eyes, what would happen if a US administration decided to liberate the "opressed" by the Greeks "Macedonians"? I know its a bit exagerrated but the reality sometimes surpasess even the wildest fantasy.

Where is my tin foil hat - my brain waves are being read by space aliens.



The cash that George Soros has thrown into this must have resulted in a quite succesful propaganda, If you consider me to be an evil ultranationalist
that is depriving a small country of a name then you cleary are unaware of the disgusting Skopjan misinformation and propaganda.

Hellenes

Hmm - the pot calling the kettle black arguementive style.

Its been an interesting thread - but you have defeated your own arguement with your statements.

:oops:

[hellenes]

The oldest caterpillar does not make the most beautiful butterfly.

Since its ovious that as usual none is going to change any opinion on any matter Ill end this topic with my previous statement:
Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want...

Hellenes

[Reenk Roink]

We're all people...

Greeks, Fins, Skopjan Bulgars, etc...

~:grouphug:

[Macedon]

1945.
Socialist Yugoslavia, a federation of six republics, was a very diverse state. All of the republics had their own separate (but related) people and history.
In the past there were many conflicts, quarrels and inevitably, wars between these people, all leading to very complicated and uneasy inter-relations.
But now was a different time. Communism demanded peace and order. All people should unite under one (red) banner, serving the broader community, all building the NWO...
So Tito and his comrades invented a new doctrine, unprecedented in the Balkans, and that was the doctrine of "Brotherhood and Unity". It was a brilliant construction, because it prevented excessive national feelings (and practices), and augmented a broader, Yugoslav feeling of belonging. It was Tito's political masterpiece.

1991.
Well we all know what happened to Yugoslavia, and the "B and U" concept was in no part a minor player in it's downfall. But my point is in something else.
Immediately after the dissolution od the federation, all of the republics (naturally) attempted to continue from where they were... interrupted. As if they were finally waking up from a long (nationless) sleep. Thus, old quarrels were dug up, ancient vendettas were resurrected and everything went straight to hell...
The main fuel in these resurrections was the old familiar feeling of national pride, 'our own god's right to unite' etc. All peoples were looking back on their respective past for a justification, for a sign of providence (yeah, every country has these moments...) to rebuild.

We, the Macedonians had nothing to look at. We gained our self rule only in 1943. We gained recognition only after communists saw a gain in declaring it so (hence the overwhelming support for the communists at that time).
And now was 1991, we were independent and hungry for a nationalist (a typical adolescent symptom) feelings. There were ridiculously right-wing parties, shouting aloud crazy designs and clenching their fists in anger.
Then came Alexander. The masses embraced the idea like it was sent by god himself. It was the 'missing link' between our past and present. It was the perfect fuel for our own genuine feelings of muscle and blood and god-knows-what-else...
As you all may have guessed, these parties won the first multi-party elections, and a new national flag was introduced, the 'Vergina' symbol on a red background. Greece freaked out. They embargoed us for several months, cutting out our oil supply. The country was about to collapse. So Greece won, we changed our flag. Then they prevented our admission in the UN under our constitutional name (enter > FYROM). Since then, the situation is pretty much uneasy. But this post does not intend to dwell into the high politics between the two countries, it will only attempt to question some assumptions of the fellow member Hellenes, aswell as try to clarify a few things:

1. I have an impression that you (and most Greeks) imply that these 'Greater Macedonia' or 'Descendants of Alexander' positions are an official, state-endorsed policy of the Republic of Macedonia.
This is false.
The official political, scientific, cultural and educational institutions of RM have always declared us as being nothing else than Slavs. Even more, the majority of the people know this as naturally as you know that you are a Greek. There is no question about that. This Alexander thing is pushed only by a (loud) minority, largely ignored and sometimes ridiculed by the broad public.
But my friend, I'm really surprised by the amount of attention these circles receive in Greece, as if they are the voice of RM! I cannot understand that!

1.2. Over the years it also came to my attention that Greeks often bring up this issue that our very own constitution contains a paragraph calling for a 'reunion with the conquered parts of Macedonia, one way or another', or something similar... An open proof of our hostile intentions toward Greece!
This is also false.
I had the (boring) opportunity to browse a copy of our constitution several times in the past, and there was nothing like that even mentioned! From where did the Greeks dug up such an 'information', I don't know...
Do you really believe that we would and could attack Greece? Do you know how many tanks we have? Four! Aircraft? Four! Helicopters? Two! Hostile intent? Zero!

2. There is this interesting reference to George Soros in your posts. Well let me tell you about Soros: he came to Macedonia in the mid '90 and started to boast vast humane Sarosprojects, financing this and that, Soros the Friend, Soros the Partner... He opened couple of humanitarian agencies ('helping' junkies by providing sterile needles!). When he laundered enough money - he disappeared! Ha ha, I love that guy...

3. 'Titoist designs'? I see you know very little about Tito, he was many things, but not expansionist. And for the love of god man, Tito was a communist, meaning 'Titoist maniacs that go around screaming that they are not Slavs and that they are descendants of Alexander...' simply does not apply. You are mixing up things here.
Read your books.

4. Rainbow organization. You claim that they are 'spies'. Come again? Their only purpose is to secure the most basic civil rights for our minority in Greece. But you are right in one thing, they are doing it in the most idiotic way, boasting maps and slogans that only make them look ridiculous.
To tell you the truth, I was ignoring this minority of yours for a long time. Then, about 5-6 years ago, I had this experience:
I was sitting in this little restaurant in northern Greece (Makedonia) with my friends on a summer vacation. The waiter comes (he was also the owner) and asks us what will we order. While we discuss the beer offer, the guy suddenly starts to speak on our own language! I was shocked! He said that he was from an old Macedonian village, this and that, they were 'evacuated' by the authorities in 1947 and dispersed in other places throughout Greece (he was born on the way out). But he was speaking very cautiously, I could barely hear what he was saying. Yes my friend, fear was in his eyes. I never forgot this man. Rainbow is about men like him, not spies or saboteurs or (like one Greek foreign minister said in a visit) bunch of homosexuals! I will say again, they have also some crazy ideas, and certainly a crazy website...

* * *

Overall, there is so much misunderstanding between our two peoples, so much distrust. We are all losing breath over issues that are really not important in our developement as a civic, urban and modern societies. The past is not the right course for the future, Republic of Macedonia has proved that on numerous occassions. We, having gained freedom so lately in our life, should know the value of peace and friendliness. After all, we are the only Balkan country without a single mass grave on our record...
Macedonia and Greece will continue to be neighbours for a long time in the future, it's time we start to behave as such.

Regards, Macedon

[Papewaio]

ROFL.

Try looking at other countries once in awhile.

Australia, New Zealand and quite a few other countries use the UK flag as part of their design.

Other countries use democracy... mind you a modern version as the old Athenian one is more akin to what futurist writers fear... the idea that only the rich and powerful corporations have a vote and decide mans fate.

All this referencing to history... well what have the balkans or greece done in the last few hundred years to grow modern democracy and civilisation?

Stop living in the past and start contributing to the future or we will come in and take all your marbles.

:laugh4:

[Reenk Roink]

Gah! It's really about time I seize the reins of power on this crazy planet... :juggle2:

[Reenk Roink]

ROFL.
Other countries use democracy... mind you a modern version as the old Athenian one is more akin to what futurist writers fear... the idea that only the rich and powerful corporations have a vote and decide mans fate.

All this referencing to history... well what have the balkans or greece done in the last few hundred years to grow modern democracy and civilisation?

Stop living in the past and start contributing to the future or we will come in and take all your marbles.

:laugh4:

Remember that our founding fathers (assuming that you are from America) didn't trust the common people...they were afraid of giving every man a voice...they envisioned an aristocracy themselves. Guess why we have an electoral college. :eyebrows:

EDIT: You're from Austrailia....my bad

[Papewaio]

Quite an assumption as my location indicates Sydney, Australia..., Marbles :D

[hellenes]

1945.
Socialist Yugoslavia, a federation of six republics, was a very diverse state. All of the republics had their own separate (but related) people and history.
In the past there were many conflicts, quarrels and inevitably, wars between these people, all leading to very complicated and uneasy inter-relations.
But now was a different time. Communism demanded peace and order. All people should unite under one (red) banner, serving the broader community, all building the NWO...
So Tito and his comrades invented a new doctrine, unprecedented in the Balkans, and that was the doctrine of "Brotherhood and Unity". It was a brilliant construction, because it prevented excessive national feelings (and practices), and augmented a broader, Yugoslav feeling of belonging. It was Tito's political masterpiece.

1991.
Well we all know what happened to Yugoslavia, and the "B and U" concept was in no part a minor player in it's downfall. But my point is in something else.
Immediately after the dissolution od the federation, all of the republics (naturally) attempted to continue from where they were... interrupted. As if they were finally waking up from a long (nationless) sleep. Thus, old quarrels were dug up, ancient vendettas were resurrected and everything went straight to hell...
The main fuel in these resurrections was the old familiar feeling of national pride, 'our own god's right to unite' etc. All peoples were looking back on their respective past for a justification, for a sign of providence (yeah, every country has these moments...) to rebuild.

We, the Macedonians had nothing to look at. We gained our self rule only in 1943. We gained recognition only after communists saw a gain in declaring it so (hence the overwhelming support for the communists at that time).
And now was 1991, we were independent and hungry for a nationalist (a typical adolescent symptom) feelings. There were ridiculously right-wing parties, shouting aloud crazy designs and clenching their fists in anger.
Then came Alexander. The masses embraced the idea like it was sent by god himself. It was the 'missing link' between our past and present. It was the perfect fuel for our own genuine feelings of muscle and blood and god-knows-what-else...
As you all may have guessed, these parties won the first multi-party elections, and a new national flag was introduced, the 'Vergina' symbol on a red background. Greece freaked out. They embargoed us for several months, cutting out our oil supply. The country was about to collapse. So Greece won, we changed our flag. Then they prevented our admission in the UN under our constitutional name (enter > FYROM). Since then, the situation is pretty much uneasy. But this post does not intend to dwell into the high politics between the two countries, it will only attempt to question some assumptions of the fellow member Hellenes, aswell as try to clarify a few things:

1. I have an impression that you (and most Greeks) imply that these 'Greater Macedonia' or 'Descendants of Alexander' positions are an official, state-endorsed policy of the Republic of Macedonia.
This is false.
The official political, scientific, cultural and educational institutions of RM have always declared us as being nothing else than Slavs. Even more, the majority of the people know this as naturally as you know that you are a Greek. There is no question about that. This Alexander thing is pushed only by a (loud) minority, largely ignored and sometimes ridiculed by the broad public.
But my friend, I'm really surprised by the amount of attention these circles receive in Greece, as if they are the voice of RM! I cannot understand that!

1.2. Over the years it also came to my attention that Greeks often bring up this issue that our very own constitution contains a paragraph calling for a 'reunion with the conquered parts of Macedonia, one way or another', or something similar... An open proof of our hostile intentions toward Greece!
This is also false.
I had the (boring) opportunity to browse a copy of our constitution several times in the past, and there was nothing like that even mentioned! From where did the Greeks dug up such an 'information', I don't know...
Do you really believe that we would and could attack Greece? Do you know how many tanks we have? Four! Aircraft? Four! Helicopters? Two! Hostile intent? Zero!

2. There is this interesting reference to George Soros in your posts. Well let me tell you about Soros: he came to Macedonia in the mid '90 and started to boast vast humane Sarosprojects, financing this and that, Soros the Friend, Soros the Partner... He opened couple of humanitarian agencies ('helping' junkies by providing sterile needles!). When he laundered enough money - he disappeared! Ha ha, I love that guy...

3. 'Titoist designs'? I see you know very little about Tito, he was many things, but not expansionist. And for the love of god man, Tito was a communist, meaning 'Titoist maniacs that go around screaming that they are not Slavs and that they are descendants of Alexander...' simply does not apply. You are mixing up things here.
Read your books.

4. Rainbow organization. You claim that they are 'spies'. Come again? Their only purpose is to secure the most basic civil rights for our minority in Greece. But you are right in one thing, they are doing it in the most idiotic way, boasting maps and slogans that only make them look ridiculous.
To tell you the truth, I was ignoring this minority of yours for a long time. Then, about 5-6 years ago, I had this experience:
I was sitting in this little restaurant in northern Greece (Makedonia) with my friends on a summer vacation. The waiter comes (he was also the owner) and asks us what will we order. While we discuss the beer offer, the guy suddenly starts to speak on our own language! I was shocked! He said that he was from an old Macedonian village, this and that, they were 'evacuated' by the authorities in 1947 and dispersed in other places throughout Greece (he was born on the way out). But he was speaking very cautiously, I could barely hear what he was saying. Yes my friend, fear was in his eyes. I never forgot this man. Rainbow is about men like him, not spies or saboteurs or (like one Greek foreign minister said in a visit) bunch of homosexuals! I will say again, they have also some crazy ideas, and certainly a crazy website...

* * *

Overall, there is so much misunderstanding between our two peoples, so much distrust. We are all losing breath over issues that are really not important in our developement as a civic, urban and modern societies. The past is not the right course for the future, Republic of Macedonia has proved that on numerous occassions. We, having gained freedom so lately in our life, should know the value of peace and friendliness. After all, we are the only Balkan country without a single mass grave on our record...
Macedonia and Greece will continue to be neighbours for a long time in the future, it's time we start to behave as such.

Regards, Macedon


1st What the word Makedones means and in which language is that word.

2nd "Your" language...Isnt that Bulgarian BTW?

3rd The "minority" werent they greek communists that found refuge in Yugoslavia after failing to annex Makedonia to form a communist state?

4th If you are slavs is it hard for you to identify yourself under a Slavic name rather a historically Greek one?

5th If you are Makedones why dont you speak the language of Makedon, that being a dialect of Greek?

6th Are you aware of Miloshevic's proposal to Mitsotakis (a dubious Greek polititian, Greek PM 1991-1993) for Greece and Serbia to divide Skopjan state amongst them?

Its a quite sad situation for us to look like ultranationalist in just trying to say that NO land has any magical way to name anyone that possess a small portion of it, its the way of life, the traditions, the language that define as and I would be the happiest man in the world if this whole matter would end by a simple choice of a appropriate Slavic name for your state.

Hellenes

[KukriKhan]

I keep calling "my" country Calexico...sadly no one else complies, so the Peoples Republic of Calexico exists only in my living room.

But come the 'evolution...! Spanglish and the Calex Peso will rule the world.

[Redleg]

I keep calling "my" country Calexico...sadly no one else complies, so the Peoples Republic of Calexico exists only in my living room.

But come the 'evolution...! Spanglish and the Calex Peso will rule the world.

Well your welcome to come visit my little country whenever you feel the need to escape the hardships of Calexico.

I would say its Texico - but the town exists on the border between Texas and New Mexico. (True Story.)

I guess Athens, Paris, and London, Texas will need to change there names also.

[Papewaio]

Well I say since Melbourne Australia has a larger Greek population then any city in Greece, that the Melbournites should rule on what is or isn't Greek and who can or cannot use them. :dizzy2:

[Spetulhu]

Well I say since Melbourne Australia has a larger Greek population then any city in Greece, that the Melbournites should rule on what is or isn't Greek and who can or cannot use them. :dizzy2:

Speaking of which, how many Irish are there outside the green island?

[Macedon]

1st What the word Makedones means and in which language is that word.
Our name comes from the geographical region we live in.


2nd "Your" language...Isnt that Bulgarian BTW?
No it is not. The two languages are very similar, but not the same.


3rd The "minority" werent they greek communists that found refuge in Yugoslavia after failing to annex Makedonia to form a communist state?
The minority members speak clear and coherent Macedonian. They identify themselfs as such.


4th If you are slavs is it hard for you to identify yourself under a Slavic name rather a historically Greek one?
Good point. Most Balkan Slavic people got their names from the strongest, most expansive tribe among them. For example, in Serbia there were many tribes, one of them was the Serbs. They conquered, and the rest started to eventually identify with the name. We also had numerous tribes (Brsiacks and Myacks were the biggest), but before any unification could take place, the Bulgars came...
Even today, many people identify themselfs as Myacks, with their authentic local customes and specific names etc.


5th If you are Makedones why dont you speak the language of Makedon, that being a dialect of Greek?
Bah!


6th Are you aware of Miloshevic's proposal to Mitsotakis (a dubious Greek polititian, Greek PM 1991-1993) for Greece and Serbia to divide Skopjan state amongst them?
Yes, this came up only recently, I think some journalist dug it up. Considering Miloshevic, it's hardly surprising. But what's your point?


Its a quite sad situation for us to look like ultranationalist in just trying to say that NO land has any magical way to name anyone that possess a small portion of it, its the way of life, the traditions, the language that define as
It's really quite sad that Greece pays so much attention to the issue. Greece and everything Greek should not feel threatened by us.


and I would be the happiest man in the world if this whole matter would end by a simple choice of an appropriate Slavic name for your state.
Heh... You talk about renaming people as it is a simple CIV4 game. Try imagine Greeks changing the name of their state and you'll grasp the improbability of such an option.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Try imagine Greeks changing the name of their state and you'll grasp the improbability of such an option.Louis thinks that the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' should in turn insist on Greece renaming itself to the historical appropriate name of 'Former Turkish Colony of Greece'. :beam:

Gah! That'll teach 'em. ~;p



(Edit: Sorry LEN. Your wish is my command, but it's too late to edit this post as it's already been quoted below.)

[LeftEyeNine]

Louis, May you please edit this post since that would freak out hellenes and drive the discussion into a Greek-Turk war again (I can hardly stand it) ?

Regards, Louis :bow:

[hellenes]

Louis thinks that the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' should in turn insist on Greece renaming itself to the historical appropriate name of 'Former Turkish Colony of Greece'. :beam:

Gah! That'll teach 'em. ~;p

1st Its very funny. What about change France's name to "Former German Colony Taken in 40 Days"?

2nd As LeftEyeNine will confirm the Turks that came to Malagirt have VERY few in common with the modern Turks, not to mention the Yani Charis and the whole Muslim=Turk motto.

3rd There is NO "Greece" its HELLAS, just a reality check.



Our name comes from the geographical region we live in.
Well why then the Bulgarians are named from their real origin of Volga river? Shouldnt they be named Pannones? From the Pannonia region?
But you didnt answer my question



No it is not. The two languages are very similar, but not the same.
Its strange how the Bulgarians have completely different opinion, for me if two people dont require even a fracture of a translators intervention then they speak the same language.


The minority members speak clear and coherent Macedonian. They identify themselfs as such.
Can you tell me if these "Macedonians" are Slavs? Or violently Bulgarised by the Komitatzi and Bulgar fasists during WWI-WWII?


Good point. Most Balkan Slavic people got their names from the strongest, most expansive tribe among them. For example, in Serbia there were many tribes, one of them was the Serbs. They conquered, and the rest started to eventually identify with the name. We also had numerous tribes (Brsiacks and Myacks were the biggest), but before any unification could take place, the Bulgars came...
Even today, many people identify themselfs as Myacks, with their authentic local customes and specific names etc.
Well a variation of Myackia would be a nice name that would describe perfectly a state that didnt exist before and starts a fresh start on the global political scene.


Bah!
?


Yes, this came up only recently, I think some journalist dug it up. Considering Miloshevic, it's hardly surprising. But what's your point?
My point was that you should consider also the huge amounts of patience that the Greek governemnt (not all the people) demonstrated, and also the continuous efforts to resolve the whole issue diplomatically.


It's really quite sad that Greece pays so much attention to the issue. Greece and everything Greek should not feel threatened by us.
As you know any time a state starts to give up and take steps back the whole thing hides dangerous consequences for the future, It may start with the name, escalate to the banknotes having the Thessaloniki's white tower on them etc. etc....


Heh... You talk about renaming people as it is a simple CIV4 game. Try imagine Greeks changing the name of their state and you'll grasp the improbability of such an option.
We arent Hellenes because we live in the land that is named Hellas, we are Hellene, we speak Hellenic and have the Hellenic way of life a continouation and evolution from the past.
Wherever we go we name that place off OUR names not be named after that place (like hellenic names in Australia the New Smyrna in USA etc), Hellas is Hellas ONLY because there are Hellenes living here.
As STRAVON stated over 2 millenia ago:
"ΕΣΤΙΝ ΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΑΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ"

Hellenes

[Macedon]

Mphhh... why are you losing your temper? It was a good discusion. Try again.

[Redleg]

.

3rd There is NO "Greece" its HELLAS, just a reality check.



Its interesting that all Maps state Greece. :oops:

[LeftEyeNine]

I think it's being too sensitive around here. Should I force people whose mother language is English to pronounce "Türkiye" as we call it in our own language -that does not seem rational to me regarding phonetics of English- and even as the English word for it is a very easy way to make fun of ?

Hmm.. Why not ? GAH ! ~D

[A.Saturnus]

Then again, France and Germany have gone to war with each other over less. It did take Western Europe 1500 years too to realise that people like you and I have got better things to do with our lives.

Well, for our part, we had to. The last 60 years, all your nukes where directed at Germany ~:eek:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, for our part, we had to. The last 60 years, all your nukes where directed at Germany ~:eek:Er, yes. Well, see, they are directed at uh...uh...Ah! They were directed at the former communist Eastern Germany, to protect you, our German friends! :beam: :yes: :beam:

Then after 1990 we, erm, 'forgot' to point them at somebody else. And, and...and it's awfully complicated to reprogram nukes and stuff! And time pressure, let's not forget about time pressure and all that either!
:sweatdrop:







.....:creep:......

[Watchman]

1st Its very funny. What about change France's name to "Former German Colony Taken in 40 Days"?I guess that'll make Denmark "Former German Satellite Taken Overnight." Hard to beat *that* one. ~;p

Speaking of which, now how long did it take the Germans to roll over you Greeks when they had to come and bail the hopeless Italians out anyway...?

Kettle. :knuddel: Pot.

[GoreBag]

3rd There is NO "Greece" its HELLAS, just a reality check.

You're fooling yourself.

[hellenes]

I guess that'll make Denmark "Former German Satellite Taken Overnight." Hard to beat *that* one. ~;p

Speaking of which, now how long did it take the Germans to roll over you Greeks when they had to come and bail the hopeless Italians out anyway...?

Kettle. :knuddel: Pot.

Actually 2 months: 7 April 1941 till June 1, 1941, and if I add the Italian Invasion you get the picture. ~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes:
Also:
"Historical justice obliges me to state that of the enemies who took up positions against us, the Greek soldier particularly fought with the highest courage."
Address by Chancellor Adolf Hitler to the Reichstag
(May 4, 1941) http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler050441.html
Now should I be proud or what?:knight: :knight: :knight:
NeonGod
Nice, very polite of you. Thank you.

Hellenes

[hellenes]

Mphhh... why are you losing your temper? It was a good discusion. Try again.

Phew I lost my temper again...
TEEEMPER!!!
TEEEMPER!!!
TEEEMPER!!!
Were are you naughty boy...d@mn I lost it again...
Anyway if you think of my post as angry you shouldnt, Im simply asking questions and making comments and waiting for your reply.

Hellenes

[Strike For The South]

What is this thread about?

1. Who got invaded and taken of quickest by the Nazis
2. Greece and Macedon although Im not sure why we should care.
3. Hellas is the real name for Greece?
4. LENs spelling mistakes What the hell is "Türkiye":laugh4:

After revewing this thread I beilive I can say Texas wins wait no I meant Tejas

[Kralizec]

Greeks is what the Romans called them, and after that everybody else. Frankly, anybody who has a problem with that should be quite and deal with it. I wonder if Hellenes ever said the word "Hungarian" because he would be doing exactly the same, as they call themselves Magyars.


As you know any time a state starts to give up and take steps back the whole thing hides dangerous consequences for the future, It may start with the name, escalate to the banknotes having the Thessaloniki's white tower on them etc. etc....

Do you have any basis for that other then your irrational paranoia? Macedon has already pointed out that such thoughts are from a marginal minority wich is not really taken serious, despite whatever empty rethoric you might spout. Though the naming of "Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia" was misguided at first, what reason is there to change it now?

[hellenes]

Greeks is what the Romans called them, and after that everybody else. Frankly, anybody who has a problem with that should be quite and deal with it. I wonder if Hellenes ever said the word "Hungarian" because he would be doing exactly the same, as they call themselves Magyars.



Do you have any basis for that other then your irrational paranoia? Macedon has already pointed out that such thoughts are from a marginal minority wich is not really taken serious, despite whatever empty rethoric you might spout. Though the naming of "Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia" was misguided at first, what reason is there to change it now?

Well
https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2108/banknote5cc.jpg
Thats the white tower of the Greek city of Thessaloniki, the one that the Skopjans call "Solun" and the "capitol" of the "suppressed" "macedonians".
Its quite convinient to safely condemn and express opinions without any deeper knowledge or even caring about the matter, which I understand since I wouldnt care much of the troubles of a foreign countries far away...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

Is that note made of paper?

[hellenes]

Is that note made of paper?

Money is not made of paper..
Who told you that it is?
Its made of some cotton based material thats why if you forget banknotes in your pocket and wash them they wont dissolve.
And its obviously an overused banknote with a pattern inside.

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

Actually Australian money is made of polymers... paper, cotton is just so old fashioned and easier to make forgeries of.

[Macedon]

Well why then the Bulgarians are named from their real origin of Volga river? Shouldnt they be named Pannones? From the Pannonia region? But you didnt answer my question
I already told you, we take our name from the region we live in. Why are you asking me about the Bugarians?


Its strange how the Bulgarians have completely different opinion, for me if two people dont require even a fracture of a translators intervention then they speak the same language.
Bulgarians are very loud about them being able to perfectly understand us. It is then very amusing to me to watch a Bulgarian first refusing a translation, and then requiring me to speak really slowly... Our two languages are very similar but not the same.
Let me ask you: Serbs and Croats understand themselfs perfectly. Are their two respective languages the same then? What about Czechs and Slovaks? Russians and Ukrainians? Croats and Slovenes?



Can you tell me if these "Macedonians" are Slavs? Or violently Bulgarised by the Komitatzi and Bulgar fasists during WWI-WWII?
Why don't you ask them?


Well a variation of Myackia would be a nice name that would describe perfectly a state that didnt exist before and starts a fresh start on the global political scene.
Is this sarcasm? Bah...


?
What?


My point was that you should consider also the huge amounts of patience that the Greek governemnt (not all the people) demonstrated, and also the continuous efforts to resolve the whole issue diplomatically.
Heh heh... The valiant Greek government peacefully but fruitlessly tries to push its rightful and just agenda against the shockingly wrong hostile propaganda of it's northern barbarian neighbours :laugh4:


As you know any time a state starts to give up and take steps back the whole thing hides dangerous consequences for the future, It may start with the name, escalate to the banknotes having the Thessaloniki's white tower on them etc. etc....
Hmmm... I've never seen this 'banknote' before. On the top says 'Republic of Macedonia', and on the side, 'One Macedon'. The picture is probably St. Climent. I've searched a bit for info and there is no record of such a banknote issued by the state. This is most probably a work of some 'ultra-right' group, propaganda effort perhaps (note the edges, it's amateur work).
I must again stress my amusement by your (Greeks) tendency to give credit to issues completely ignored and dismissed in Macedonia. You must surely know how fruitless is to argue with a nationalist about politics... Follow our example!


We arent Hellenes because we live in the land that is named Hellas, we are Hellene, we speak Hellenic and have the Hellenic way of life a continouation and evolution from the past.
Wherever we go we name that place off OUR names not be named after that place (like hellenic names in Australia the New Smyrna in USA etc), Hellas is Hellas ONLY because there are Hellenes living here.
As STRAVON stated over 2 millenia ago:
"ΕΣΤΙΝ ΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΑΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ"
Congratulations.

[Ser Clegane]

Hmmm... I've never seen this 'banknote' before. On the top says 'Republic of Macedonia', and on the side, 'One Macedon'. The picture is probably St. Climent. I've searched a bit for info and there is no record of such a banknote issued by the state. This is most probably a work of some 'ultra-right' group, propaganda effort perhaps (not the edges, it's amateur work).

I also did a quick google-search that seemed to confirm that this one is "fake" (apparently it is some kind of "souvenir" produced by a Macedonian company).
Does Macedonia even have 1-denar banknotes?

[Macedon]

We do have 1 Denar coin, but the smallest banknote is 10 Denars. (1 Euro = 61+/- Denars)

[A.Saturnus]

I also did a quick google-search that seemed to confirm that this one is "fake" (apparently it is some kind of "souvenir" produced by a Macedonian company).
Does Macedonia even have 1-denar banknotes?

So much for propaganda...


My point was that you should consider also the huge amounts of patience that the Greek governemnt (not all the people) demonstrated, and also the continuous efforts to resolve the whole issue diplomatically.

As opposed to? What would be the other option?

[Watchman]

Much Ado About Nothing.

[silencio]

Quote:
"The Aromanians (Vlachs) of Greece plead for saving their mother tongue, against Greece's attitude that their language is only oral and cannot be written or taught at schools."

What is wrong with this protest by the Vlachs. I've seen many of those by minority groups in other places. If that is what you call the sabotage activies...

To quote again from the "enemy" site you posted:
"Florina/Lerin -- Last Tuesday an Athens court found three Greek journalists guilty for 'revilement', a slightly lesser charge than libel under Greek law."

It shows that Greek court has centenced Greek journalists for defamation. What do the Skopie Bulgars have to do with it.

[Slyspy]

Quote:
"The Aromanians (Vlachs) of Greece plead for saving their mother tongue, against Greece's attitude that their language is only oral and cannot be written or taught at schools."

What is wrong with this protest by the Vlachs. I've seen many of those by minority groups in other places. If that is what you call the sabotage activies...

Like Welsh then? Despite being English I don't mind the Welsh revivng their language - it should be the same in Greece. If they want to sound like living history lessons with permenant colds then that is up to them. ~;)

[Watchman]

Yeah, well, nationalism started becoming a problem the exact second some pan-somethingorother started getting ideas about one land, one people, one language...

And boy, did *that* ever cause trouble.