UK ID cards to be compulsory

[InsaneApache]

Lord Falconer told BBC Radio Four's Any Questions: "The question is should you require - and I think ultimately, unless there is compulsion, you won't get the benefits of an ID card system - is it right to compel those that don't have a passport also to get an ID card?

"I think it is, I think it will become inevitable that you need reliable means of identification, both to stop people stealing your identity, and also making it much, much easier for you to deal with the state.

"You won't every time you want to change something have to fill in a long form, life will just become much easier."

here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4633822.stm)

So another unelected windbag millionaire gets on his soapbox and starts blathering on about how the rest of us should behave. Just because he's Tonys best mate.

The ID card is expected to costs between £170 and £300 each. I don't know about you lot but I object to paying this bunch any more of my money than they already screw out of me and mine.

There is no evidence that they will even make a difference. In fact after WWII ID cards were scrapped because they where so unpopular people stopped talking to Policemen in case they were asked to produce it.


The likely cost of rolling out the UK government's current high-tech identity cards scheme will be £10.6 billion on the 'low cost' estimate of researchers at the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE), without any cost over-runs or implementation problems. Key uncertainties over how citizens will behave and how the scheme will work out in practice mean that the 'high cost' estimate could go up to £19.2 billion. A median figure for this range is £14.5 billion.

lseidcard (http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2005/IDCard_FinalReport.htm)

My we are a rich country. Rich enough to have this illiberal repressive government spend our hard earned money on yet another white elephant.

Millennium dome and Mandelson anyone?:inquisitive:

[Slyspy]

I can see his point. A voluntary system would just be a typical Labour fudge - expensive and pointless. In order for the ID system to have a purpose it would have to be compulsory (in which case government funds should pay). On the other hand I fail to see why we should have such a scheme at all. I remain to be convinced that it will be of any benefit, that it will even work or that anyone really knows how much it will cost.

[Tribesman]

is it right to compel those that don't have a passport also to get an ID card?

Are people who do have passports compeled to carry them (unless they are traveling abroad) , if not then how is it linked to ID cards ?
Since there is a lucrative market in fake passports in Britain (as in any other country) then there will also be a market for fake IDs .

Millennium dome and Mandelson anyone?
No thanks , though I didn't realise Mandleson was an elephant , I thought he was just another corrupt politician , or is the elephant his party trick at one of those fetish gatherings .:laugh4:

[Duke Malcolm]

Ugh, soon enough they'll have plans for us to require an ID card to leave our houses...

[Lentonius]

Although ID cards would be useful in the sence that at the post office, or blockbusters you dont have to rummage around for your driving liscence, £170-£300 each is rather lots of money for this...

although by means of identification, in my mind passports will do thankn you very much, and if ID cards are brought out they will only bring with them an army of forgers

[BDC]

I can get an ID card to prove my age for £10. I can even get a driving licence for £40.

Then why the hell should I pay £300 for an ID when I ALREADY have TWO state IDs? A passport and a driving licence. What the hell is up with this? It's just Blair getting caught up in a mess and now having to carry along with it because otherwise he loses all his authority.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There has been discussion of such a thing here as well.

The concept of these high tech cards is to make illegal/false ID extremely difficult to fabricate.

Such cards would also become the vehicle for your driver's llicense, professional licenses, medical records, allergy allerts, and government services eligibility -- all in one package.

Now, as to how wise a strategy that would be.....

[King Henry V]

Imagine if you lost it!
I agree with the idea of compulsory ID cards, though 300 pounds for it is ludicrous.

[Red Peasant]

£14.5 billion for a plastic card with some info on. I'd like to know how the LSE work this one out! Surely Barclays could issue them for nothing :laugh4:

TBH I think that the idea's daft but that's my opinion. However, IA is just spinning his usual Tory bile to score cheap political points. Yawn. The way you talk, then the Tories will be scrapping all taxes, and giving us all free sex and beer forever. Jeez, even I'd vote for them if that were true. :dizzy2: But it's complete bollocks of course. Cameron is a bigger phoney than Blair. Just watch.

PS I believe that the Millenium Dome was a white elephant of the Tories' making.

[InsaneApache]

However, IA is just spinning his usual Tory bile to score cheap political points

Okay this is the last time I'm going to repeat this. I havn't voted Conservative since 1987. I just don't like what this bunch of no-hopers and hypocrites are doing to my country. If it were the Tories doing this I would oppose them in the same way.

[BDC]

Now, as to how wise a strategy that would be.....

I bet I lose mine.

Or some idiot makes a fake one based on mine, and I get dragged off and beaten up by MI5.

[Crazed Rabbit]

How soon, then, until one needs their ID card to leave their homes, ride a train or the tube, buy food, etc?

The irony of this happening in Britain is almost too much.

Crazed Rabbit

[Red Peasant]

Okay this is the last time I'm going to repeat this. I havn't voted Conservative since 1987. I just don't like what this bunch of no-hopers and hypocrites are doing to my country. If it were the Tories doing this I would oppose them in the same way.

Lol! Oooh-eerrr, I think you do protest too much, missus!:laugh4:

[Red Peasant]

How soon, then, until one needs their ID card to leave their homes, ride a train or the tube, buy food, etc?

The irony of this happening in Britain is almost too much.

Crazed Rabbit

What irony is that then? We don't do irony in Britain you know ~;) :dizzy2:
You're just too clever sir.

[InsaneApache]

:laugh4: nice mix of Shakespear and Frankie Howard :laugh4: I'm impressed. :dizzy2:

[Red Peasant]

Thanks Mother! :laugh4:

[Quid]

The last time I travelled to Sweden I ended up at the airport sans passport and sans ticket (very conveniently left at home). Good to have an ID card in those situations. Cost of card about £30 - or something thereabouts.

Quid

[Xiahou]

How soon, then, until one needs their ID card to leave their homes, ride a train or the tube, buy food, etc?Can you say,"Papers, please"?

[scotchedpommes]

Can you say,"Papers, please"?

Ihre Papiere, bitte!

[Slyspy]

The idea of ID cards is the only thing that has ever made me want to join in a political demonstration. The worst thing about it is that even if the Government know it is a bad idea they will go ahead anyway out of sheer pride. Heaven forbid that they should admit to being wrong.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What irony is that then? We don't do irony in Britain you know
You're just too clever sir.

1984 and the setting of the book.

Crazed Rabbit

[JAG]

It is a terrible policy and one which will never get through the Lords, even if it were to continue getting through the Commons.

[Lentonius]

personally they should either make them around a tenner to buy, or just not bother. my passport is good enough thank you very much...

[Quid]

personally they should either make them around a tenner to buy, or just not bother. my passport is good enough thank you very much...

You don't take your passport with you everywhere you go.

Anyway, what is the beig deal about this in principle? Switzerland and I believe Germany have had them for years. Since 2003, it is compulsory to have them with you at all times (I had to get a new one as my previous one had expired in 1989). It's credit card sized, I can travel with it all over Europe and I don't need to carry any other ID with me.

So please, someone enlighten me. Where does all this paranoia come from?

Quid

[Lentonius]

for my part, i dont feel it is safe to be required to carry around an ID card everywhere you go. it would cause unwanted trouble if you lost it for instance,and if you were ever caught without it it would give the authorities to arrest you on the basis of you forgot your card when you go walking your dog

[Kralizec]

I take there's no indication yet how big the fine will be for not being able to show your ID?

In the Netherlands it's 2250 euro max, or 3 months jail time. I seriously doubt most people will get fined that high. Also I've never been asked for my ID by a police officer since this law has gone in effect, a year ago now.

[Lentonius]

yes it wont be a huge issue but maybe with the UK being more terror alert it may be taken more seriously.

it would be like your driving liscene but all the time. If you lost it or had it stolen there are big problems, and even more if you were stopped in london or somewhere without it. With the terror alert here being high I feel it would increase paranoia in the authorities

[Quid]

for my part, i dont feel it is safe to be required to carry around an ID card everywhere you go. it would cause unwanted trouble if you lost it for instance,and if you were ever caught without it it would give the authorities to arrest you on the basis of you forgot your card when you go walking your dog

I am sorry Lentonius but I think you're being a tit bit silly here. Although the fines may in fact be high on paper, I have yet to meet anyone who was fined (or heaven forbid, jailed) for not being able to produce their card on demand. One is usually asked to produce it at a police station at a later time. Only then, in case of non-complience, may one be fined.

If you lose your ID card, you will have to alert the authorities as you would have to do if you lost your passport. You would then have it replaced with a new one. Naturally, it would carry a small administrative fee with it also.

I have yet to see any reasonable argument that would suggest that ID cards are not a good idea. Everything so far has been very vague and really not very convincing. Is it just that you're afraid of having a card on you with your personal details on or is it something else?

Great Britain, especially London, is one of the (if not the) most controlled and observed countries/cities in the world. Why would carrying an ID card be such a big deal? It's convenience pure...I wonder if this has anything to do with culture.

Quid

[Kanamori]

I think it just sounds a bit risky to have so much information so consolidated. If it can be fabricated, and I cannot imagine some thing which is so secure that it cannot be tampered with, or stolen, one risks a lot of security. I would also imagine that the paperwork for it would be nearly as consolidated physically, which I could see as being another fairly large problem.

[Duke of Gloucester]

So please, someone enlighten me. Where does all this paranoia come from?

The English Civil war and the Glorious Revolution probably. Whatever reason, there is a healthy (I think) fear of the tyranny of the sate in Britain. We don't like the idea of having to justify ourselves for just walking down the street. That is why there is hostility to the idea of compuslory ID cards, and saying that ID cards are used in Holland, Switzerland or Germany won't help. Deep down we think the whole idea is "foreign" and that just bolsters our prejudice against them.

There are two condiderations. Firstly, is it acceptable to give this much power to the state? If the state can demand to know who you are wherever you are then the state has more opportunity to control what you do. It makes state control easy. However the extra control could be used to make citizens safer and prevent the nuisance of identity theft. How much freedom do we want to give up or risk losing and how much protection does it give us?

The second consideration is financial. Is the extra protection worth the cost? On both these counts, I think that it is not worth it, but this may be an emotional response rather than a rational one.

[InsaneApache]

Pretty much nailed it I would say D o G. We (Brits) just think that it's none of the governments business what we do or where we go, who we talk to and when. We are of the opinion that they work for us, they don't govern us.

Not too put too fine a point on it we have had democracy in some form or another for centuries, Europe, generally speaking, hasn't.

Maybe it is a 'hang over' from when we had a despot Lord Protector, the reason for our army being miniscule per head of population is because of that.

Anyway I'm sure that the government would swell the treasury coffers with the fines levied. A bit like the speed camera trick. One mph over the limit and bingo a nice £60 fine and 3 penalty points. No arguing.

Or maybe I'm letting my cynicism show again.:juggle2:

[Quid]

Pretty much nailed it I would say D o G. We (Brits) just think that it's none of the governments business what we do or where we go, who we talk to and when. We are of the opinion that they work for us, they don't govern us.

And how would your government know where you are at what time, who you're talking to and why etc. by carrying an ID card on you? Does it have a chip inside that gives the government the chance to find you when you don't want to be found? Isn't that a little unfounded?


Not too put too fine a point on it we have had democracy in some form or another for centuries, Europe, generally speaking, hasn't.

You're living under a representative democracy whereas in Switzerland we're living under a direct democracy so anything we don't like we just get rid of with a referendum.


Or maybe I'm letting my cynicism show again.:juggle2:

Oh well, most probably~;).

Lots of the dislike of ID cads is definitely based on paranoia as the previous posts seem to indicate. As assumed, it might very well have something to do with the cultural difference. As DoG pointed out, it is a 'foreign' idea. I understand actually. This is one of the main reasons Switzerland has had (and still does have) such an isolationist position towards the EU. People don't know (or don't want to know) what they would let themselves into...

Quid

[A.Saturnus]

And how would your government know where you are at what time, who you're talking to and why etc. by carrying an ID card on you? Does it have a chip inside that gives the government the chance to find you when you don't want to be found? Isn't that a little unfounded?

They track you with surveillance cameras of which Britain has the highest density in the world!

[InsaneApache]

And how would your government know where you are at what time, who you're talking to and why etc. by carrying an ID card on you?

Well if you were stopped by a member of Her Majesties Constabulary and he/she demanded to see your 'papers' (ala Gestapo) then he/she would make a record of such a stop and request, the government would make sure of that, they love to create paperwork and bureaucracy. Therefore the authorities would know where you were, what you were doing and when. I repeat, it has got nothing to do with the government what we do where we go or why.

[BDC]

Well if you were stopped by a member of Her Majesties Constabulary and he/she demanded to see your 'papers' (ala Gestapo) then he/she would make a record of such a stop and request, the government would make sure of that, they love to create paperwork and bureaucracy. Therefore the authorities would know where you were, what you were doing and when. I repeat, it has got nothing to do with the government what we do where we go or why.
I don't understand this ID card stuff. Let's review:

1) No one wants them.
2) It's a foreign idea.
3) They were tried in the past and abandoned.
4) They almost certainly won't help much with terrorism.
5) They're expensive.

Which leads to me to wonder why our elected representatives are so keen to see them come in. They must know something no one else does.

[Quid]

Well if you were stopped by a member of Her Majesties Constabulary and he/she demanded to see your 'papers' (ala Gestapo) then he/she would make a record of such a stop and request, the government would make sure of that, they love to create paperwork and bureaucracy. Therefore the authorities would know where you were, what you were doing and when. I repeat, it has got nothing to do with the government what we do where we go or why.

So really, with what you're saying, you should also abandon passports, driving licences, and/or any other kind of official licence because HM Customs, Police etc. are all out to get you...After all, all that documentation proves about as much as an ID card would.

I am sorry, IA, but I think you're worried about something that doesn't really exist. Why on earth would the government want to know where you are/what you're doing in the first place?

The only reason a police officer would ever check your papers is if you seem suspicious in one way or another. I am quite certain, they couldn't give a toss who you are or what you're doing otherwise. And that is good so.



1) No one wants them.
2) It's a foreign idea.
3) They were tried in the past and abandoned.
4) They almost certainly won't help much with terrorism.
5) They're expensive.

1. - Ok, fine

2. - Ok, have established the xenophobia of the British...thought only we Swiss were like that

3. - Probably a half-arsed attempt...no further comment

4. - I actually agree with that.

5. - Probably right too. Only question is, is it worth the expense.

Must go eat...

Quid

[BDC]

3. - Probably a half-arsed attempt...no further comment

It was during WW2. Apparently it was abandoned because it was alienating the public so much from the police.

[Duke Malcolm]

So really, with what you're saying, you should also abandon passports, driving licences, and/or any other kind of official licence because HM Customs, Police etc. are all out to get you...After all, all that documentation proves about as much as an ID card would.

But all that stuff is not compulsory, we do not have to have a passport, only if we wish to go to other countries. We only need a driving licence if we wish to drive. We will need ID cards simply if we are alive and wish to be within the law.


I am sorry, IA, but I think you're worried about something that doesn't really exist. Why on earth would the government want to know where you are/what you're doing in the first place?

Power corrupts....


The only reason a police officer would ever check your papers is if you seem suspicious in one way or another. I am quite certain, they couldn't give a toss who you are or what you're doing otherwise. And that is good so.

Police stop a lot of people : the young; elderly men near schools; hooded gentlemen; people with rucksacks...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Which leads to me to wonder why our elected representatives are so keen to see them come in. They must know something no one else does.

They, like all governments, want power. They want statistics, they want to know where people go, what they do, and how they can force them to do what the government wants or deems beneficial.

The very idea of having to prove who you are to every government official who asks is detrimental to democracy and freedom.

Crazed Rabbit

[InsaneApache]

:bow:

[Papewaio]

I assume they will be scanner enabled cards like those I would get for free from my video store...

I wonder who's mate is going to pocket the 300 pounds.

Also WWII... IBM databases was used to find all the people the Nazis did not like...

I wonder if a tatooed number or scan code or chip embedded under the skin will be talked about soon?

[Tribesman]

The only reason a police officer would ever check your papers is if you seem suspicious in one way or another. I am quite certain, they couldn't give a toss who you are or what you're doing otherwise. And that is good so.

One of the reasons behind the riots in France was the ID cards and people being constantly stopped and checked , but they were suspicious as they were not the right colour , that is good so ????:dizzy2:

[Strike For The South]

Its happening. Big brother here:help:

[Idaho]

I have a passport for travelling in and out of the country, for establishing my credentials when I do so. I have a driving licence to show that I am qualified to drive on the roads in this country. I also have a birth certificate If I want to further establish my birth and existence if officially requested to.

What do I need another form of ID for? Why should I pay a large sum of money and have the inconvienience of carrying around a form of ID that seems to serve no purpose or offer no function beyond what I can already acheive. The only purpose seems to be to offer the police a opportunity to make me identify myself when I am neither entering the country nor driving on the roads. And to be honest I don't see why I should. If the state really wants to know who I am then they can write to me and ask. Why should they have the power to casually demand and be told?

[InsaneApache]

It seems as though Tony Blair has indeed achieved a remarkable thing. He has suceeded in bringing together all political strands and persuasions to oppose this scheme.

I think this shows the we (in the UK) do not like government noseying about in our private lives. Well done Sir, another winner. :no:

[Fragony]

Allready compul$ory here. Wa$ a good year for the tax agenc*oooop$* I mean police. But, I feel a whole lot $afer.

[BDC]

It seems as though Tony Blair has indeed achieved a remarkable thing. He has suceeded in bringing together all political strands and persuasions to oppose this scheme.

I think this shows the we (in the UK) do not like government noseying about in our private lives. Well done Sir, another winner. :no:
Now, if our MPs would pull the finger out and listen.

Being kicked out of the Labour party might actually be helpful for them if Labour loses horrifically at the next election.

[Slyspy]

The idea of compulsory ID cards (compulsory when getting a new passport that is) has been voted against in the Lords. Early days though. Plus there is no indication that a voluntary system would be opposed in such a way. Yet another expensive, unwanted fudge of a scheme coming our way it seems. How I despise party politics.

[Al Khalifah]

I wonder by what right the Government claims to determine my right to exist in my own country - since by definition, if I refuse to carry my identity card in public in my own country, I would be a criminal under this system. What would they do if I repeatedly refused to carry one? Export me?

The Government doesn't own the country and they should not have the right to make slaves of its people with this kind of ridiculous scare-mongering gestapo tactic. We do not need identity cards in Great Britain. The Governments justification - that the intelligence service say they will help fight terrorism. Didn't the intelligence service say a war in Iraq would not help the war against terrorism. Selective hearing?

If they send me an identity card, I'll send the damn thing back. If the likes of Tony Blair or Charles Clarke should dare to accuse me of endangering the country, being unpatriotric or not helping fight terrorism then those public school silver spoon cowards can answer to more than half a decade of fighting for the defence of this country and its interests in places they said we should go while they were busy cutting defence spending and ordering my commrades to go fight and put fear into the innocent in their own country in some far away land in the name of "stopping terrorism." Their vision of Britain is not shared by our brave servicemen in Iraq that are supposedly fighting to protect our liberties and those of others, while they are stripped away by the politicians and the scaremongers thousands of miles behind the lines.

Let them send the ID cards and we'll send them back. Then when they've made criminals of the innocent, we'll see how much support there is for "the party of the people."



In short, I'm not entirely in favour of ID cards.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

don't worry guys, this law won't pass, God bless the house of lords,the bastion of democracy!

[Slyspy]

But the law may still pass as a voluntary scheme. And there are ways of designing an officially voluntary scheme which is, in fact, essential. An offer which you cannot refuse. Also why should we have to rely on the Lords to kick this nonsense out. Are our elected representives so subservient to the party line? Disgusting.

[JAG]

It seems as though Tony Blair has indeed achieved a remarkable thing. He has suceeded in bringing together all political strands and persuasions to oppose this scheme.

I think this shows the we (in the UK) do not like government noseying about in our private lives. Well done Sir, another winner. :no:

You forget one very important thing... Those who actively follow politics of all persuasions are indeed all against it, but those who don't - the vast majority of people in this country - as shown by opinion polls almost wholly support the proposal. Blair isn't stupid, he wouldn't do it without some significant backing.

[JAG]

don't worry guys, this law won't pass, God bless the house of lords,the bastion of democracy!

And that statement is a farce, I hope you were being sarcastic.

Not only does God bless nothing as he is a figment of your imagination but the House of Lords does nothing but reflect the inequalities and weakness of our democracy.

[Divico]

I wonder who's mate is going to pocket the 300 pounds.


Must be one of Quid's mates in Aarau. ~:smoking:

http://www.trueb.ch/en/news/download_read.php?mode=detail&newsid=40

They already got the contract for UK dirver's licenses and they might be interested in the ID card contract as well.

[Ronin]

I really don´t understand all this problem with having an identity card.....I have had one all my life, and I was never stopped on the street by some police officer demanding to see it and asking were I have been and who I´ve been talking to.
On the other hand It makes things alot easier when you need to identify yourself to sign a contract or something like that, It can be easily replaced if stolen or misplaced(unlike a birth-certificate that can be quite a hassle to have replaced), it´s just something that sits in your wallet and makes your life alot easier from time to time......not some big brother mind control gizmo for christ´s sake.

The only think I do see as wrong in the british plan is the having to pay for the card thing :inquisitive: , I have renewed my Id card 3 or 4 times in my life and I have never had to pay a damn thing.:2thumbsup:

[InsaneApache]

Yes but wasn't Portugal a fascist state until the '75 uprising?

Therefore people would have a different mindset about such matters.

The whole thing goes against the grain of our national psyche. I suppose I could always trot out the old mantra about my parents fighting Nazis. They didn't fight tyranny to have it imposed on them in their dotage. And make no bones about it, it is a form of tyranny. Thin end of the wedge. Salami politics. I could do cliches all afternoon, but I think you get the point.

[Quid]

Must be one of Quid's mates in Aarau. ~:smoking:

They already got the contract for UK dirver's licenses and they might be interested in the ID card contract as well.

He, he, he...by trying to convince the Brits to have ID cards I might just get a little piece of the cake. Must call the lads in Aarau and make a little deal there.

Switzerland has not been under an undemocratic rule since the invasion of Napoleon (can't really call it an invasion) and has not been ruled by any king, dictator, or whatever since 1291. We still have compulsory ID cards though and I have yet to hear anyone complaining.

Maybe the British government wants these cards for the wrong reasons. Here, there were not done because of a specific terror threat but to make people's lives easier. And it did. That's all that is important to me.

Quid

[Idaho]

Yeah but you Swiss are well known for your illiberal tendancies. Don't villages and small towns vote to have no immigrants in them?

IA - all political pursuasions? I thought it was pandering to the curtain twitching middle englanders who think they will finally be free of all these terrorist darkies that is steamrollering this whole thing through.

[InsaneApache]

IA - all political pursuasions? I thought it was pandering to the curtain twitching middle englanders who think they will finally be free of all these terrorist darkies that is steamrollering this whole thing through.

How peculiar, and there was I thinking it was the illiberal, repressive left that wanted to achieve control over peoples lives. Just goes to show, doesn't it?

[Ronin]

Yes but wasn't Portugal a fascist state until the '75 uprising?

Therefore people would have a different mindset about such matters.

The whole thing goes against the grain of our national psyche. I suppose I could always trot out the old mantra about my parents fighting Nazis. They didn't fight tyranny to have it imposed on them in their dotage. And make no bones about it, it is a form of tyranny. Thin end of the wedge. Salami politics. I could do cliches all afternoon, but I think you get the point.

'74 actually..

we had id cards then -> dictatorship
we have id cards now -> freedom

I don´t see how the ID cards were the problem :book:

[Incongruous]

I don't bloody believe it. WTF is it with Blair?
WTF is it with us British, WhyTF are we always so innactive?
Jesus we profess to have helped liberate Europe from Tyranny before, yet we cannot save ourselves!
Oh well I'll just dream as I watch V for Vendetta.

[Slyspy]

And that statement is a farce, I hope you were being sarcastic.

Not only does God bless nothing as he is a figment of your imagination but the House of Lords does nothing but reflect the inequalities and weakness of our democracy.

Yep. The Lords is increasingly a retirement home for politicians and their cronies. On the plus side though they might scupper this ID card nonsense. At least the old Lords took their politics with them into the House rather than the other way around!

Incidently I don't believe that the original poster ws being sarcastic. I believe he was being ironic. Though it is hard to tell in text.

[drone]

One step closer.... "Papers please!"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4707608.stm

Somebody is getting rich off of this, that's the only explanation.

[The_Doctor]

When do we(the people) get a say in all this?

[solypsist]

If you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn't mind needing an ID to leave your house ~;p

But seriously, I would expect it coming from the most survielled populace in the world. I wonder what the odds are that it would be anotehr one of those things that is halfway implemented, never enforced locally, and then abandoned altogether to the cost of a few million pounds.

[Strike For The South]

When do we(the people) get a say in all this?

pfft. You forget we live in a democracy:laugh4:

[rory_20_uk]

I think that there are some useful things that could be on a very simple card, one tht I have in fact.
NHS cards carry your personal information re: immunisations, and I'm sure could include an active problem list, allergies, etc, etc.

One muppet once approached me to sign a petition against the card. His argument was thus:

"Imagine a person is found wandering the streets late at night by the poice and in fact he's a mentally ill patient!" Erm, that was the argument. I was thinking "yes, they'd take one look at the card and take him to A&E for assessment, not take him home or lock him up. They'd be far more likely to help the individual if they knew what was going on".

OK, so perhaps mentally ill people might not all have their cards on them - but it was IMO a good use of one.

Loads of other medical uses in emergencies: blood group, allergies, past medical history...

Whether this should be compulsary or not I don't know, but the card I've got saves me a lot of time as when I go for a new job the read the card and all my immunisations are right there, no faffing for forms or measuring scars.

~:smoking:

[InsaneApache]

Well it looks as though the upper house threw it back to the commons.


Clarke vows to continue ID battle

MPs overturned previous Lords defeats on the ID Cards Bill
Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said he will try to overturn the latest Lords defeat to his ID card plans.

Peers on Monday night defeated government plans to make all passport applicants also have an ID card.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4781302.stm)

How can the government even state they are voluntary if you have to apply for one when you get your passport?


Home Office Minister Baroness Scotland of Asthal told the Lords that cards were "in the public interest and in the interests of national security".

They would also help "improve public services", she said.

Now I like to think of myself as an informed type of chap, but I just can't see how issuing these cards could conceivably "improve public services".

This administration has more smokescreens and red herrings than a Scottish kipper factory.:wall: :sweatdrop: :no: :shame:

[Kanamori]

How can the government even state they are voluntary if you have to apply for one when you get your passport?


You don't need it necessarily, you'll only need them if you want to step foot outside of your home, duh.:dizzy2:

Curse Labour and those who want the Government's nose in everything.

[rory_20_uk]

What the government can do and does are very different things:

You can be arrested for one's conduct, or be arrested if that arrest will aid an investigation if the policeman thinks that is the case. A crowd is 2 people and can be dispersed if one person is causing a disturbance or the policeman thinks they mmight do in the future

So, in theory standing somewhere one can be arrested for one's conduct, or possibly moved along as one is nearby someone else who might do something at some point.

The fact is we are not all in jail, and there are still hotspots of disorder, such as A&E departments for example.

Why the goverment feels the need for these laws is beyond me when it doesn't even enforce the ones already in place.

~:smoking:

[InsaneApache]

Why the goverment feels the need for these laws is beyond me when it doesn't even enforce the ones already in place.

Well they have to justify their existence and look as though they are 'doing something'. This regime has passed more laws than any other in history. All for the need to look as though they are 'doing something'.

It would be nice if they bothered to enforce the present laws without forever bringing in 'new' proposals.

As for ID cards, then if I have to apply for one when I get my passport, then I won't re-apply for it. After all I've travelled all over Europe and the only people who actually look at the thing is when I use a different bank in the UK. :sweatdrop: :inquisitive: :laugh4:

[BDC]

The only thing that makes me smile about Blair at the moment is that he has successfully scuppered any chance Brown had of becoming the next PM...

This is Britain, we shouldn't be treated like prisoners by our own government. But seems to be happening now anyway. What a failure Labour have been.

[InsaneApache]

They WILL become compulsory if Labour win the next election.


Compulsory identity cards planned

Identity cards will be made compulsory if Labour wins the next election, Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said.

What is this bloke smoking?


He said the opt-out had been introduced to allay fears expressed in the House of Lords that cards would be "foisted" on people, but he added: "Anyone who opts out in my opinon is foolish."

He said he believed there was an "appetite" among the public for ID cards, which he said would bring "massive benefits" for banks, law enforcement agencies and "the individual citizen".

Where does he get that idea from? I've yet to meet anyone who wants one. :dizzy2:

Why would I be a fool because I don't want political apparachniks looking over my shoulder?

Nice election ploy though, calling anyone opposed to compulsory ID cards a fool. :wall:

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4860642.stm)

[Ja'chyra]

I don't mind having one, but I do object to having to pay for the priviledge.

[Kanamori]

I've always been a bit confused, do you get/require ID for driving? In the states, one gets a driver's license if they wish to drive. Compulsory ID's sound like a bunch of nonsense to me, why would the government force you to buy all of that junk if you don't want it? That doesn't sound very democratic to me, especially with how many people are opposed to them. It's times like this when Labour shows how they are pro-big-government, and for running people's lives. Hopefully, the Tories shape up a bit, as I think they will with Cameron. They look to be a bit socialist in the areas I like, like healthcare, and more Libertarian where I like as well, too bad I won't be able to vote in GB for quite a while.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

those that don't mind them resent the cost, so i can see a lot of people trying to opt out, and a system with that many holes wouldn't work very well

[Scurvy]

I don't mind having one, but I do object to having to pay for the priviledge.

ditto

[Banquo's Ghost]

The real problem, and one which yesterday's compromise foisted on everyone regardless, is the national ID database that backs up the ID cards. You don't have to have an ID card until 2010, but you will have to register on the database to get a passport. It's the database you should be really scared of.

This database is currently planning to hold a huge amount of information on every citizen, for use by an unamed range of government bodies. For a government that cannot even keep a database running for the Child Support Agency, how do you think they are going to guarantee accuracy of this information - especially since you, the citizen, has no right to see what's on it? (No practical Freedom of Information Act in the UK). This database is planned to hold all sorts of biometrics on you including your DNA - the UK government has a scintillating record of disaster on IT projects as simple as integrating National Insurance numbers and the Inland Revenue - can you conceive of the mammtoh cock-up coming down the turnpike on something as complex as this? (Also note that the boss of Capita, one of the companies responsible for these previous mistakes and in the running for the ID database, resigned last week because he is being investigated for giving Blair/Labour a million quid donation in return for preferential treatment for these contracts).

The list of agencies allowed to access the database is currently small, but passports are issued under Royal Prerogative (which means the Prime Minister, acting with the powers of an absolute monarch, can change the rules any time without recourse to Parliament) and therefore a PM can change the access rules any time they like - at their whim and there's NOTHING you or your elected representative can do about it. Oooh fancy.

Best of all, it is apparently going to eradicate crime and terrorism. Give away your liberty and be safe, the cry of all tyrants. But how do you get onto this infallible database that will guarantee your identity for all time? Yup, you use your current ID information, so all the bad guys need to do is get some fake passports and NI cards, and boom! get themselves guaranteed bona fides through the new ID card/database and they are set for life.

And this service is brought to you at a cost per person currently estimated at well over £300 per time.

Talk about sleep walking into a police state. :no:

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Great post, Haruchai. Bang on the money.

To be honest, I'm not sure which bothers me most-the negative implications in terms of liberty, or the fact it's going to be a collossal waste of cash.

[BDC]

Great post, Haruchai. Bang on the money.

To be honest, I'm not sure which bothers me most-the negative implications in terms of liberty, or the fact it's going to be a collossal waste of cash.
Maybe it's the fact that not only does it reduce liberty, it also has the cheek of demanding people pay lots of money for it.

At least the Soviet secret police didn't bill you for their time... :)

[Al Khalifah]

Oh well, let them send me to jail... I'm not carrying one. FACT


When do we(the people) get a say in all this?
You get a say. But the same bunch of tossers keep voting for labour anyway regardless of what they do - and there's just enough tossers in the right places to guarentee Labour the seats it needs - so your vote doesn't count for anything. Vote Conservative in the next general election if you don't want it to happen. You could even vote Lib Dem if you live in a marginal. But don't vote for the Greens, UKIP, Independant because if you do you may as well wipe your arse with the ballet paper.

Or you could try moving to Scotland, where you get to have two parliaments and if one does something you don't like you can just listen to the other one instead.

I get the impression that unless we have some kind of violent uprising in the UK (or possibly a bloodless coup - is there anything cooler than a bloodless coup that isn't actually bloodless, its only called that because no one important gets killed) nothing will ever change and Labour will keep steam rolling over people's rights.

[Justiciar]

I get the impression that unless we have some kind of violent uprising in the UK (or possibly a bloodless coup - is there anything cooler than a bloodless coup that isn't actually bloodless, its only called that because no one important gets killed) nothing will ever change and Labour will keep steam rolling over people's rights.
Say the word, I'd be happy to join you.

[InsaneApache]

Didn't they bill the victims family for the cost of the round?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Great post Haruchai, I too have the same misgivings as you do.

After all that, it looks as though this government is shaping up to be the most corrupt ever. They make the idiot known as Major look good. :embarassed:

Now these 'people' are reneging on their manifesto pledge and we, again bare the cost.

No bloody wonder that the voters flock away from the ballot box in droves. :no:

[Marcellus]

Something that particularly annoys me about how the Government is carrying out this whole policy is the way that they are demanding that the Lords stop trying to block the bill 'because the people back it', since it was in the Labour manifesto and Labour are in government. But only 36% of the population voted Labour, and 54% of the population voted Conservative or Liberal Democrat, which both opposed ID cards. By trying to block the ID card bill, the Lords are simply countering the unrepresentative way in which the electoral system works in the UK (Labour getting 55% of the seats in the commons based on 36% of the vote).

[Al Khalifah]

The BNP got 0.7% of the vote which would entitle them to 4 or 5 seats in parliament. Do you want that? UKIP got 2.2% of the vote and so on.... The system we have may be bad, but raw proportional representationalism is not the answer. It would only take 42,000 votes to get elected at that rate.

Though I agree, I don't see how Labour can justify 286 seats in England to the Conservatives 193 when the Conservatives actually got 70,000 more votes.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It seems the writer for V for Vendetta got the party that took over Britain wrong.

Crazed Rabbit

[Duke Malcolm]

I think that was based on anti-Thatcher book: nonetheless, that's what I thoguht when seeing the movie, too...

[Justiciar]

It's based on a pretty old post-war comic as far as I know.

[The_Doctor]

I feel very massive about of rage building every time I think of the government.

I hate their stupid arrogance, they think they now what is best for everyone.

Great, now I have a headache. Thank you Blair, you gave me a headache.


I get the impression that unless we have some kind of violent uprising in the UK (or possibly a bloodless coup - is there anything cooler than a bloodless coup that isn't actually bloodless, its only called that because no one important gets killed) nothing will ever change and Labour will keep steam rolling over people's rights.

My idea is the:

Commonwealth of Merseyside

Or

The Republic of Merseyside

Or

The City of Liverpool

It will have a Greek city state style democracy, with a few changes.


Oh well, let them send me to jail... I'm not carrying one. FACT

I am with you on that. And there are plenty of other people who would do the same thing.

They cannot arrest the whole country. But that won't stop them trying...

[Al Khalifah]

It will have a Greek city state style democracy, with a few changes
Oh why did you have to ruin it all with democracy. I was hoping for a more Lycurgan Constitution style of government. No need for ID cards - kill anyone who doesn't have a beard.

[Marcellus]

The BNP got 0.7% of the vote which would entitle them to 4 or 5 seats in parliament. Do you want that? UKIP got 2.2% of the vote and so on.... The system we have may be bad, but raw proportional representationalism is not the answer. It would only take 42,000 votes to get elected at that rate.

Though I agree, I don't see how Labour can justify 286 seats in England to the Conservatives 193 when the Conservatives actually got 70,000 more votes.

If we are going to accept the BNP as a legitimate political party (a horrible one yes, but a legitimate one), then I don't think that we can decide to give them no representation if enough people vote for it.

But that's not really the issue I raised. I was angry at the way Labour are trying put forward the idea that the Lords were trying to block what the people voted for, since the majority of the population voted for parties that opposed ID cards:

Party--------------% of vote---------% of seats in the commons

Labour---------------35.3----------------------55.2
Conservative---------32.3----------------------30.7
Liberal Democrats-----22.1----------------------9.6

[Justiciar]

Puritain Dictatorship all the way.

[Al Khalifah]

Oh I absolutely agree there. Actually, give the fact that the turnout was around 60%, New Labour can only really claim the support of 22% of the voting population.

When will they realise that they are so far deviated from popular opinion that it is bordering on a farce. The only reason they remain in power is the combined apathy of the populace and the demonic portrait they paint of the other party.

New Labour will just have to get some more 'donations' so they can get more Lords who agree with their way of thinking in there.

[Craterus]

I sat in on a Lords debate about this last week... go me!

[InsaneApache]

Just read this on another forum.


This was written originally by Frances Stonor Saunders.

Frances Stonor Saunders is the former arts editor of The New Statesman, author of The Cultural Cold War, Diabolical Englishman and The Devil's Broker and was awarded the Royal Historical Society's William Gladstone Memorial Prize. She lives in London.

"You may have heard that legislation creating compulsory ID Cards passed a crucial stage in the House of Commons. You may feel that ID cards are not something to worry about, since we already have Photo ID for our Passport and Driving License and an ID Card will be no different to that. What you have not been told is the full scope of this proposed ID Card, and what it will mean to you personally.

The proposed ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register), where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the back of your eye, and your photograph. Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there.

There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence status, and many other private and personal facts about you. There is unlimited space for every other details of your life on the NIR database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without further Acts of Parliament.

By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'.

Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented. This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of NatWest, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licenses will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.

Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database. If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a swipe. If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card, or a supermarket loyalty card, or a driving license you will have to present your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a mobile phone or an internet account.

Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for example) all run very detailed databases of their own. They will be allowed access to the NIR, just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number. These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally. It will then be possible for a non-governmental entity to
create a detailed dossier of all your activities. Certainly, the government will have clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking, down to the level of what sort of bread you eat - all accessible via a single unique number in a Central database.

This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name and face.

Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card. Whenever the details of how it will work are explained to them, they quickly change from being ambivalent towards it.

The Government is going to COMPEL you to enter your details into the NIR and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye scanned, you will not be able to get a passport. Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.

The arguments that have been put forwarded in favour of ID Cards can be easily disproved. ID Cards WILL NOT stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a compulsory ID Card as did the Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not 'eliminate benefit fraud', which in comparison, is small compared to the astronomical cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE (London School of Economics). This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen, and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.

If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and
you are as unsettled as I am at what it really means to you, to this country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues and everyone else you think should know and who cares. The Bill has proceeded to this stage due to the lack of accurate and complete information on this proposal being made public.

Does anybody think this is a good situation?

[rory_20_uk]

I am surprised at the amount of information that can be gathered.
I am sadly (when will I learn I am not cynical enough??) surprised that information can be sold on to others.

As a tool to allow easy access to medical information with one's passport and other crucial information for the state and emergency services I saw a use. Optional access to selected parties to selected items I again saw a use.

This type of shite comes through, I am going to have to reconsider emigrating.

~:smoking:

[The_Doctor]

Does anybody think this is a good situation?

Not many people here thought it was good idea before that article.

Can the article be trusted?
Where did it come from?

If it is true, it does not surprise me.

As I have stated before, I will not get an ID card.

EDIT: If you search for her name plus ID card, you will find quite a few websites with it on. So it can probably be trusted.

[SomeNick]

Haven't had time to go through the whole thread just read the first post.

I would just like to say 'Pathetic'.

If some loser with too much money and seeking to control a population's identity system and therefore make more money ( as identity is a commodity just take a look at the extremes advertising will go to to collect information on you, to sell to you 'follow up , back end selling etc., and I'm certain that would be a main point on the little freaks adgenda...), he can bloody well pay for it himself and good luck to any megalomanic efforts in attempting to make it compulsory. In fact there's his first line of profit straight off. Making the population PAY for his own fetid scheme. Disgusting.

Gaol him. Or even better execute him, (lol?, sorry but attempts like these by certain scum at controling flow of information to benefit them and only them and their little covens of scum sicken me) would be even better and save your country a lot of wasted time, pol'ies wages : S (or your money in taxes), and keep little Hitlers at bay. Or, 6 feet under and pushing up daisies where they should be.


Hmmm feel better now...

[Banquo's Ghost]

As I have stated before, I will not get an ID card.


You won't have a choice, if you want to stay in the UK. Your only choice is to try and defeat this legislation by civil disobedience (and hope millions of others do the same) or voting for another party at the next election (compulsion has to be confirmed in the next parliament, though because the passport rules are under the Royal Prerogative and therefore out of parliamentary control, this is a nicety).

When voting however, remember that the Labour Party put ID cards in its manifesto (why it could browbeat the House of Lords into accepting the bill) but explicitly stated in that manifesto that medical details and the other info-creep would not be allowed.

Remember party manifestos are The Truth. :wall: