The Factions

[ShadesWolf]

IGNPC: What civilizations will be represented? What are some of the defining abilities and units of some of your favorite civilizations? Any cool historical battles to take advantage of these civilizations?

Bob Smith:There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.

We've included several factions that weren't included in the original Medieval; examples being Scotland, Venice and Portugal.

The final lineup of playable factions is still to be decided, however there will be a rich variety of factions to play, each with their own unique units and abilities that add a great deal of variation to the grand campaign experience.

As an example, Scotland start with the English breathing down their necks, so they will have to keep their heads down, bide their time, and seek allies. Scotland's army will be a mixed bag of solid lowland spearmen and fierce but unreliable highlanders. They'll have to work hard diplomatically at the start to avoid being overrun by the English, but if they can become the dominant power in Britain, they have a base to expand and seek wider domination.

We haven't finalized the lineup of historical battles at this point but rest assured they will be exceptionally cool.
- From IGN article

[ShadesWolf]

CATHOLIC

England,
France,
Scotland,
Holy Roman Empire,
Denmark,
Spain,
Portugal,
Milan,
Venice,
Papal States,
Sicily
Poland
Hungary

MUSLIM

The Turks,
Egypt,
The Moors

ORTHADOX

Byzantium,
Russia,


OTHER

The Mongols,
The Tumurids,
The Aztecs

[Vlad The Impaler]

since when is Hungary orthodox?:dizzy2:

[Steppe Merc]

It isn't...

And what are the The Tumurids? They seem familiar, but I can't place them.

[The_Doctor]

The Tumurids should be musilm.

They are musilm mongols. Tamealane's people.

[ShadesWolf]

I was guessing, Now ive updated it and placed them under Carholic



And what are the The Tumurids? They seem familiar, but I can't place them.

where they not the empire to the east of the holyland around Iran. A quick search has found this


The Timurids were a Dynasty of Iran established by the Emir of Kesh (Shahrisabz), known to history as Timur (Tamerlane). Timur conquered large parts of Transoxiana from 1363 onwards with various alliances (Samarqand in 1366, Balkh in 1369), and was recognized as ruler over them in 1370. Acting officially in the name of the Mongolian Chagatai ulus, he subjugated Mongolistan and Khwarazmia in the years that followed and began a campaign westwards in 1380. By 1389 he had removed the Kartids from Afghanistan (Herat) and advanced into Iran and Iraq from 1382 (capture of Isfahan in 1387, removal of the Muzaffarids from Shiraz in 1393, and expulsion of the Jalayirids from Baghdad). In 1394/95 he triumphed over the Golden Horde and enforced his sovereignty in the Caucasus, in 1398 subjugated northern India and occupied Delhi, in 1400/01 conquered Aleppo, Damascus and eastern Anatolia, in 1401 destroyed Baghdad and in 1402 triumphed over the Ottomans at Ankara. In addition, he transformed Samarqand into the 'Center of the World.


Link http://timurid-dynasty.brainsip.com/

[The_Doctor]

Maybe the map extend further east to include Iran.

[NodachiSam]

I'm really worried how they are going to work the aztecs in there. I smell possible ~massive~ historical inaccuracy coming. Anyone here read Guns, Germs and Steal?

[ShadesWolf]

I'm really worried how they are going to work the aztecs in there. I smell possible ~massive~ historical inaccuracy coming. Anyone here read Guns, Germs and Steal?

My guess is an era on its own with its own map. Only including a few factions. Other than that it could be a timed event, ie not possible until after 1492 and only if you have achieved certain developments.

[Steppe Merc]

Oh. Well since Timur's faction was only around for as long as he was, and they formed after the Mongol Horde, the Qipchaqs would be a far better choice, or the Fatmids or Abbassids.

[lars573]

Maybe but Timur is renouned in history. Plus his faction lasts from 1370 to 1507. The Fatimids are Egypt (at least by 1080 they were) and the Abbasids were gone a century before. But you never know CA might have upped the factions to 25 or 30. I mean that total has to be 22 as the rebels are always a faction.

Also the Timurids were Moslem.

Tamerlane was only partly Mongol and never claimed to be one. But he tended to use Mongol puppet figureheads and did create the last serious nomadic empire. A devoted Moslem, his conquests and massacres were nevertheless almost entirely directed against fellow Moslems. Poor little Georgia had to bear most of his wrath against Christians.

Despite what must seem the superfluous slaughter and pointless terror of Tamerlane's campaigns, his was the only historic empire actually founded on the region of Transoxania and cities like Samarkand and Bukhara. This brought a period of higher culture and architecture to the area. The style of architecture, indeed, passed to the Moghuls. The splendor of the Taj Mahâl thus owes more than a little to the ferocious Tamerlane.

The region of Farghâna included a small Timurid principality. The Özbeg conquest of the region (1501) sent the heir, Bâbur, heading for Kabul (1514) and India (1526), where he founded the Moghul Empire.

[NodachiSam]

MTW allows 32 factions. We can only hope they can again reach at least that.

[Antiochius]

I think that at the end there won`t be the Aztecs. beause how should they intigrate into the game?

[Butcher]

Oh, they'll find a way..

[Hambut_bulge]

Hopefully CA will get make the Almohads a little more historically accurate, since the Almohads didn't actually emerge as a faction until the 12th century and overran the existing Islamic Kingdoms in the Iberian Peninsula. Ideally therefore we should be starting a campaign in MTW2 with the Spanish occupying one or two provinces in the north, with the rest being controlled by various Islamic rebel/minor factions. The Almohads would then start out in North Africa and have to conquer Spain first. That might even slow them down and stop them overrunning Western Europe as so often happened in MTW.

[ShadesWolf]

Hopefully CA will get make the Almohads a little more historically accurate, since the Almohads didn't actually emerge as a faction until the 12th century and overran the existing Islamic Kingdoms in the Iberian Peninsula. Ideally therefore we should be starting a campaign in MTW2 with the Spanish occupying one or two provinces in the north, with the rest being controlled by various Islamic rebel/minor factions. The Almohads would then start out in North Africa and have to conquer Spain first. That might even slow them down and stop them overrunning Western Europe as so often happened in MTW.

If you call them the Moors, you get over the problem.

[Justiciar]

It would be droolable if the map were some colossal thing with a faction for every area owing loyalty to a number of greater factions.. then battles would be less predictable; you'd only be able to control the soldiers owned by your faction.. your allies (subordinates/superiors) could turn on you or bugger off in the middle of it all.

[Kraxis]

I'm pretty certain that the Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs are all tied to specific campaign options (remember Early, High and Late?), and the former two should of course also enter the game at some point even if you play from an earlier period. The Aztecs could also enter the game through player actions, such as finding the way to the New World (which can't possibly be tied with a timed event), but in that case the Aztecs wuld be your enemy.

[Perplexed]

The only way I can see the Aztecs being integrated (however badly) into the main campaign is if the Atlantic is opened up with the invention of deep-sea ships (caravels and etc., as in MTW) so European factions can go over to Mexico later in the game and not before.

[NodachiSam]

I hope they made it a seperate campaign for the aztecs. If not I wonder if it would be possible to go to NA earlier than normal. That would feel odd but be kind of cool. I probably wouldn't work though. The Americas would be filled with rebels if the aztecs are the only society. I really want to see a campaign map shot!!

[Antiochius]

I dislike the idea of playing the Atzects. This be good. Hopefully is ist only a campaign aim. If not, the modders will probalby chang this-i guess

[Helgi]

since when is Hungary orthodox?:dizzy2:
A Valid & Good Question, Vlad; concidering both sides of my wife's family are from Budapest and neither are Orthodox and as far as I know and think I knew, Hungary was first pagan and then Catholic.:dizzy2: :oops:

[Meneldil]

Well, I still can't figure why they stick with such a low number of faction. I'd so enjoy playing with all the EUII-like crappy one province faction. I do not mean making 500 factions with each their own units, but hell, they could put 4 irish factions, about a dozen muslim ones, 6 major french houses, and so on.
Plus, representing the HYW with 'France' and 'England' is actually quite crappy.

[Trajanus]

Update:

They are lookig to knock the faction number up to 30 if possible. So even more choice for us!

[ShadesWolf]

Plus, representing the HYW with 'France' and 'England' is actually quite crappy.

totally agreed...

A large amount of factions would be required to make it work historically.

[RedCoat]

I hope that the Eastern European factions get some decent, realistic units. The most embarrasing unit, in my mind, was the Hungarian Szekely. They're an ethnic group! Not a 'unit'.

[Ultras DVSC]

I hope that the Eastern European factions get some decent, realistic units. The most embarrasing unit, in my mind, was the Hungarian Szekely. They're an ethnic group! Not a 'unit'.

Agree, but Székelys used really this "light cavalry fighting-style" like all the ancient Magyar tribes and eastern nomadic people. After the settling emerged some new unit because the western effect (eg. royal heavy cavalry), but these tribes conserved their original style and always fought in the first line of the Hungarian army with the Cumans, Yazigs and Pechenegs. So imho Székelys are ok maybe under the name Székely Horse Archers. ~;)

[bozkirsovalyesi]

cumans absolutely...

east europe balance component.

russia-bizantyum-volga bulgaria-georgia-hungary-mongols...

balance component

[Barbarossa1221]

Playing the scots will be really hard I mean they only get like 1 province. Maybe they carved the map up more so scotland it like 2 provinces...
I cant wait to play as the aztecs!

[littlebktruck]

Hopefully CA will get make the Almohads a little more historically accurate, since the Almohads didn't actually emerge as a faction until the 12th century and overran the existing Islamic Kingdoms in the Iberian Peninsula. Ideally therefore we should be starting a campaign in MTW2 with the Spanish occupying one or two provinces in the north, with the rest being controlled by various Islamic rebel/minor factions. The Almohads would then start out in North Africa and have to conquer Spain first. That might even slow them down and stop them overrunning Western Europe as so often happened in MTW.

Perhaps they should be the Almoravids instead?

[Watchman]

Isn't it a bit silly to use dynastic names to represent a region where the ruling dynasty tended to change almost every hundred years or thereabouts...? Why not just call them the Moors or something ? I mean, they're doing the same with the Turks and Egypt already...
...
...okay, make that most of the factions.

[RedCoat]

Agree, but Székelys used really this "light cavalry fighting-style" like all the ancient Magyar tribes and eastern nomadic people. After the settling emerged some new unit because the western effect (eg. royal heavy cavalry), but these tribes conserved their original style and always fought in the first line of the Hungarian army with the Cumans, Yazigs and Pechenegs. So imho Székelys are ok maybe under the name Székely Horse Archers. ~;)



Szép, I suppose this is an accurate interpretation. The name should definitely be changed, and I think the faction as a whole should have been stronger. Hungary was the most powerful Eastern European Kingdom throughout much of the middle ages. We need more unique units for Poland and Hungary at the end of the day.

[anti_strunt]

Isn't it a bit silly to use dynastic names to represent a region where the ruling dynasty tended to change almost every hundred years or thereabouts...? Why not just call them the Moors or something ? I mean, they're doing the same with the Turks and Egypt already...
...
...okay, make that most of the factions.

Indeed! If we are to deal with a limited number of generic "factions", then we should give them generic names.

[bretwalda]

Szép, I suppose this is an accurate interpretation. The name should definitely be changed, and I think the faction as a whole should have been stronger. Hungary was the most powerful Eastern European Kingdom throughout much of the middle ages. We need more unique units for Poland and Hungary at the end of the day.

I second to that. Probably fast light cavalry and medium cavalry needed and also some unique heavy foot troops. Maybe also a unit that would represent the heavy terrain of Hungary where rivers, swamps and bridges always played big role.

[Darren_Shan]

since when is Hungary orthodox?:dizzy2:

hey hey hey

Hungary aint orthodox.. i just know it casue i live there:furious3:


:laugh4: :laugh4:

will it be a playable faction?

[Zalmoxis]

Gee, I've got a feeling that MTW2 won't be as historically accurate as it should be.

[Darren_Shan]

yeah but i whant hungary as a playable faction

i wanna i wanna i wanna

[Trajen the 1st]

yeah but i whant hungary as a playable faction

i wanna i wanna i wanna
Here you are sir:


Bob Smith:There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, HUNGARY, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.

[Darren_Shan]

yay

thx VERY much m8

[lar]

it said multiplayer and custom playable only, not single player campaign

[bozkirsovalyesi]

England,
France,
Scotland,
Holy Roman Empire, ....... germany
Denmark,
Spain,
Portugal, ......................................in europe history unimportant role
Milan, .............. italian
Venice, ............. italian
Papal States, ........ italian
Sicily, ................italian
Poland,
Russia, ............ who.? 10-12 russian knezs.
Hungary,
Byzantium,
The Turks, ........ who.? great selchuks, anatolia selchuks, ottomans, and other turks.
Egypt, .............who.? 1250-1517 memluks to be kıpchak turks.
The Moors,
The Mongols, .......... who.? great mongols empire - ilkhanlis - golden horde.?
The Tumurids, .................................... 1370-1447-- late periot & short life
The Aztecs. ................................... certain nonsense

21 faction.
but 4 italian factions, (including 2 little factions)
and 5 error factions (turks,portugal,russians,timurids,aztecs)

where..?
great or important factions:
cumans, swiss, litvania, bulgaria, burgonia, volga bulgaria, khawarizmshashs, abbasi khaliphes, zengis.

little factions:
norway, sweden, wales, irelans, normans, navarrs, catalans, genova, bohemia, austria, kroatia, serbia, epyr, crusader states (edessa-tripoli-jerussalem-antioccu-constantinopols), vlahs (romans), patzinaks, oghuzs, georgians, abhaz-chirkess (caucasia and egypt) alans, armenians, persians, arab states, habeshs(ethiopia) and minor turk states )

[Darren_Shan]

lol whats the prob with the aztecs? u might have chance to travel to the NEW World and clononize.. or summin like that

AND YAY! HUNGARY WILL OWN ALLl!!!!!

[Trajanus]

it said multiplayer and custom playable only, not single player campaign


True but like in RTW, a simple little mod and you can have all factions playable I'm sure. :)

So hungry won't be available at the start but should be eventually.

[Darren_Shan]

yay

i herd from some soarces that u choose 1 of the hungrain tribes.. and ur forst goal is to take control over the other tibes >_>

[Prince Cobra]

Pity, no Bulgaria~:confused: Ok,that's one of the unpleasant moments of my life ( Btw is there any hope that the number of factions will be changed (increased of course)????). But let's be more optimistic- the release date is coming!!!

[Darren_Shan]

sure there is!

CS is very mestarious sometimes XD

[Vladimir]

I want Luxemburg as a playable faction too!

[Randarkmaan]

If they do expand the map to go as far east as Iran(so they can include the Timurids's capital Samarkand which I believe is not in Iran but north of it) then they could just call the Timurid faction Iran and could then represent all the dynasties(Seljuks, Kwarazmians, Ilkhanate), though it would be kind of cheesy.

[Basilius]

I agree with bozkirsovalyesi that historical accuracy is questionable. I am subjective, but where is Croatia? I do not know which year mtw2 starts, but in mtw Croatia is under Hungary and that was pretty much correct, but now I see that Croatia is a rebel province and that is crappy.:help:

[Herkus]

I just hope that CA will make something like total political decentralization of European and some Asian states and factions, because if you wanted to be strong kind, empreror or whatever, you had to deal at first with various dukes, counts, princes, vassals, bishops, free cities etc in your own state.

[HarunTaiwan]

For gameplay, they sometimes need to have "rebel" provinces. They are no rebels, just independent.

[skinovitz]

England,
France,
Scotland,
Holy Roman Empire, ....... germany
Denmark,
Spain,
Portugal, ......................................in europe history unimportant role
Milan, .............. italian
Venice, ............. italian
Papal States, ........ italian
Sicily, ................italian
Poland,
Russia, ............ who.? 10-12 russian knezs.
Hungary,
Byzantium,
The Turks, ........ who.? great selchuks, anatolia selchuks, ottomans, and other turks.
Egypt, .............who.? 1250-1517 memluks to be kıpchak turks.
The Moors,
The Mongols, .......... who.? great mongols empire - ilkhanlis - golden horde.?
The Tumurids, .................................... 1370-1447-- late periot & short life
The Aztecs. ................................... certain nonsense

21 faction.
but 4 italian factions, (including 2 little factions)
and 5 error factions (turks,portugal,russians,timurids,aztecs)

where..?
great or important factions:
cumans, swiss, litvania, bulgaria, burgonia, volga bulgaria, khawarizmshashs, abbasi khaliphes, zengis.

little factions:
norway, sweden, wales, irelans, normans, navarrs, catalans, genova, bohemia, austria, kroatia, serbia, epyr, crusader states (edessa-tripoli-jerussalem-antioccu-constantinopols), vlahs (romans), patzinaks, oghuzs, georgians, abhaz-chirkess (caucasia and egypt) alans, armenians, persians, arab states, habeshs(ethiopia) and minor turk states )
I completly agree with this post and specially with adding these other important factions including these "little factions"...or it will historical background be faked again

[ride the lightning]

The only little faction I do not agree with is Sweeden. How are they a little faction? they controlled more territory than England or Portugal! Hopefull Sweeden as well as Switzerland will be involved in a Mod.

[Gurkhal]

Although Sweden had much territory, it wasn't that populated so the only regions that could compare with the rest of the world was Östergötland and Västergötland. The rest was most just woods with some villages scattered across it.

I would love to see Sweden and conquer the world for us, but we didn't make a great impact untill around the 16th centuary. Denmark called the shoots in the Baltic during the Middle Ages.

[ride the lightning]

Well, that is true, but I love the Swedes, such nice people. I can only hope a viking faction is playable if CA redo the viking invasion expansion.

[pyradyn]

Ok to say the Russians wernt important is to say the english wernt important The Kievens are the ones who crushed the Cumans repeled the Mongol invasion and helped crush poland. And later they were renamed Russians from the upperclass of the Kieven nation the Rus. Russia to this day is a supper power and its empire has lasted over 1000 years so far. If the Rus arnt in the game who the hell is going to stop/slow the mongols before they reach poland and the Balkans? If you want it historicaly accurate the Russians cant be taken out.



P.S. by 1000 Keiv controled almost all the steppe until the Novogrods came to be who later merged with Kiev and then the new capitol Moscov was named which then moved to St. Petersberb (Leinengrad) then back to Moscov.

[Trajen the 1st]

England,
France,
Scotland,
Holy Roman Empire, ....... germany
Denmark,
Spain,
Portugal, ......................................in europe history unimportant role
Milan, .............. italian
Venice, ............. italian
Papal States, ........ italian
Sicily, ................italian
Poland,
Russia, ............ who.? 10-12 russian knezs.
Hungary,
Byzantium,
The Turks, ........ who.? great selchuks, anatolia selchuks, ottomans, and other turks.
Egypt, .............who.? 1250-1517 memluks to be kıpchak turks.
The Moors,
The Mongols, .......... who.? great mongols empire - ilkhanlis - golden horde.?
The Tumurids, .................................... 1370-1447-- late periot & short life
The Aztecs. ................................... certain nonsense

21 faction.
but 4 italian factions, (including 2 little factions)
and 5 error factions (turks,portugal,russians,timurids,aztecs)

where..?
great or important factions:
cumans, swiss, litvania, bulgaria, burgonia, volga bulgaria, khawarizmshashs, abbasi khaliphes, zengis.

little factions:
norway, sweden, wales, irelans, normans, navarrs, catalans, genova, bohemia, austria, kroatia, serbia, epyr, crusader states (edessa-tripoli-jerussalem-antioccu-constantinopols), vlahs (romans), patzinaks, oghuzs, georgians, abhaz-chirkess (caucasia and egypt) alans, armenians, persians, arab states, habeshs(ethiopia) and minor turk states )

I mostly agree with this post except: 1.The Abassid Caliphs had no power in this period and were pretty much puppet rulers to the Seljuk Sultans. They wouldint make a very great faction at all unless you like sitting around in your heram eating dates.:laugh4:
2.You put Persians in when Iran was ruled by many different dyanstys in this period.
3.the Normans are in the game...well, sortof. You see by the start date.(1080AD)William of Normandy had been delcared King of England by the Pope of Rome and thus Normandy and England were ruled by one man.:2thumbsup:
As for all those other suggestions I really dont know that much about them to tell you the truth.:sweatdrop:

[ride the lightning]

So that means England can start with a province in Northern France.

[Vladimir]

Well, that is true, but I love the Swedes, such nice people. I can only hope a viking faction is playable if CA redo the viking invasion expansion.

You are aware of the irony of this statement, correct?

[ride the lightning]

The irony that vikings arn't nice people? Yes I was aware, was just a little humerous statment to me.

[pyradyn]

Vikings were very nice people.....to their own kind and others they respected.

[Furious Mental]

Vikings didn't care about their own kind. They were more than willing to attack other Scandinavians either as pirates or as the hired help of Franks, English, etcetera.

[bozkirsovalyesi]

Trajen the 1st:

1- Abassid Caliphs... 1050s - 1150s selcuklu dependent. after 1150s copmlete independent. 1258... until.

2- medieval persian factions:
....... 11.cntry: taberistan - shirvan - buveyhi emirates /
....... 12.cntry: shirvan - mazenderan emirates /
....... 12. and 13.cntrys: gurs /
....... 14.cntry: serbedars - kart - mezafferi emirates /

3- siciliy and south italy normans...

[pyradyn]

Yes but you see those were other clans. so other factions histroy just sums them all together as vikings when really there were tons of diffrent factions. Just like the world German covers all the tribes.

[spain_medieval]

SPAIN FACTION

SPAIN IN 1030

http://www.iturnet.es/navarra/spanish_kingdoms_1030.jpg

In the year 1030 there were 2 Christian kingdoms in Spain:
León and Navarre.


SPAIN IN 1200

http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/temps/so1200.jpg

In the year 1200 there were 4 Christian kingdoms in Spain:
Portugal, León, Castile, Navarre, Aragon



Then, why in the game Spain is the only faction?:embarassed:

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

I hope that there will be much more factions especilly in Balkans.I hope that I'm going to see Serbia and Bulgaria.I want to see Bulgaria becouse they were greatest power in Balkans for almost 50-60 years,especialy under Simeon who proclamaed himself emperor after taking almost Byzantine lands in Europe,he was stoped at Corinth and under city walls of Constntinopole.I want to see Serbia becouse they also have self proclaimed Emperor.King Dusan(later emperor)was greatest ruler in the eastern europe in period(1331-1355)he conquered almost all Byzantine land in Europe he sucessfuly defat king Ludovic of Hungary,he have only one defat.Turks defat him at Didimotike in 1354,after that Dusan have asked and he was granted a promision to start a crusade against Turks.He was anaunced to be a leader in that crusade,but he die in 1355 and crusade never came to life.After his death Turks were take almost the hole balcans in about 30 years.I think that Serbia need to be in this Total war becouse Emperor of the Serbs was the only Eastern europe ruler who was singed to be a leader in the crusade,unfortunaly his death stop him to that.

I apologized to everyone if I have some writhing erors I still go in Highschool in Serbia I hope that everyone could understand what I am try to say.

Please tell me what you think of this what I said.Thanks...

[Batory]

all you are saying is great but imagine if they had to make every upstart and self proclaimed empire that existed for less than 50 years there would be 100 factions...it would be impassible....but they can take these characters and make them into a rebel factions and let them pop out every so often, that would enchance the game and you would see them in the game.

[Furious Mental]

I don't want them to over script the game by having this faction or that faction become suddenly become powerful at a predetermined time. Each campaign should play out differently. If you want to simulate the fact that factions waxed and waned in prominence the best way of simulating that is with different starting times.

[Avicenna]

Sicily isn't Italian. It was a mix of Italians, native Sicilians, Carthaginians, Greeks and Romans. They are Sicilian.

Anyway, how are the Timurids there? Didn't Tamerlane claim to be descended from Genghis? My Medieval history is close to nil, so excuse me if I'm wrong.

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

i must reply on what you told becouse Serbs were independent from 9.century until arival of the Turks in Europe.Then Serbs hold of Turk invasion of the Europe for 70years in great battle on Kosovo where first Turkish Sultan was murderd.Battle was a draw but Serbia has never recovered after that battle.So Serbia finaly lose indendence in 1459,six years after fall of Constantinopole.So Serbia was independent for almost entire midle age.I think that this new game need to have some minor factions to make a game more interesting and more chalenging,and I think that Serbia and Bulgaria need to be in the game as minor factions.Also one more thing Simeon of Bulgaria wasn't self proclaimed emperor,byzantine emperor gave him this title as it was most important thing he asked in a peace treaty.

[Justicion]

I would just like to add some maps that can back up previous post..
It would really be great if M2TW could be as historicly accurate as possible.
Dusan Silni (Dushan the Mighty) had controled most of the Balkans in medieval period, with its peak in mid 14cntry. Serbian faction was signifcant power in south-eastern Europe at that time. And it didn't last for a short period of time, but for about 5 centuries they kept their independance.
I think that the realism of the game will suffer if factions like this are left out.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/balkans/sb1196.gif
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/balkans/sb1355.gif
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/balkans/sb1389.gif

[ShadesWolf]

So that means England can start with a province in Northern France.

I always find this an interesting point.

If they renamed the early English faction, the Normans, they could also give them Sicily.


Bob Smith:There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.

The east will make an interesting battle ground with Poland, Russia, Hungary, The Turks, Egyptians and Tumurids also fighting against The Mongol onslaught.

Central Europe does worry me a little. I would be far more happier if it also included Burgundy and the Swiss cantons. The game is going upto 1530 so you would expect to have the conflicts of Burgundy and the Cantons. The Burgundian empire was large and included large parts of Flanders and Artois. MTW finished in 1453 with the end of the hundred years war, but this new game will go past the War of the Roses leaving europe looking a very different continent.

[Riadach]

I always find this an interesting point.

If they renamed the early English faction, the Normans, they could also give them Sicily

Yeah but the normans in sicily never held their lands of the english kings but of the pope. Any king of england would never had any say in sicily and naples.

[ShadesWolf]

Yeah but the normans in sicily never held their lands of the english kings but of the pope. Any king of england would never had any say in sicily and naples.

Yes but William the conqueror was also Duke of Normandy (part of the French Crown)

It would be far better to make England part of the Norman empire. And then in 1154 have a civil war that split England into a seperate nation.

Or not have Normandy as part of England, but leave it as part of France and have the Duke being a blood relation to the King of England at the start of the game.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Yes but William the conqueror was also Duke of Normandy (part of the French Crown)

It would be far better to make England part of the Norman empire. And then in 1154 have a civil war that split England into a seperate nation.

Or not have Normandy as part of England, but leave it as part of France and have the Duke being a blood relation to the King of England at the start of the game.


I can understand your point shades but instead of the Normans i would add a european faction in the central or east area either Bohemia or Lithuania, just to balance things up a bit

[spain_medieval]

EUROPE IN 1075

http://www.uam.es/departamentos/filoyletras/hmedieval/especifica/cuadernos/mapas/1075.gif

[Prince Cobra]

Sicily isn't Italian. It was a mix of Italians, native Sicilians, Carthaginians, Greeks and Romans. They are Sicilian.

Anyway, how are the Timurids there? Didn't Tamerlane claim to be descended from Genghis? My Medieval history is close to nil, so excuse me if I'm wrong.

And I would add: Normans, too. As far as Timur ( or Tamerlane is concerned) is concerned he did claim to be a descendant of Genghis khan although he was not. Anyway he was a mongol leader but a muslim mongol leader ( not pagan like Genghis khan) and with a different tactic ( he used to gather all his army and hit unlike Genghis khan who preferred to use several smaller but fast armies on a giant front).

Bulgaria was not a main Balkan power only in Xth century ( when Simeon ruled) but was a powerful rival of Byzantium in VIIth (from 680-681) , VIIIth, esp in IXth and Xth and even in XI (before 1018 ). From 1018- 1185 Bulgaria was under Byzantine power but there was nine rebellions in XIth (two of them of Petar Delian and of Constantine Bodin and Georgi (George) Boyteh almost succeeded). And XIIth century there was only one but in the best moment in 1185 Petar and Asen succeded in restoring Bulgaria. So between 1185 and 1396 Bulgarian tzardom existed and was one of the Balkan powers. It was definately the most powerful Balkan country from 1185 to 1241 ( some glorious events the disastrous ( for the Crusaders) defeat of Adrianople in 1205, between 1230 and 1246 the territory of Bulgaria covered almost the whole Balkan peninsula ( although a bit smaller(!) than Simon's Bulgaria and near to the size of Bulgaria in IXth and Xth so that's not just a temporary event). The destruction of Bulgarian tzardom came with the Mongol hordes who went through the Bulgarian lands in 1242-1243. :skull: Bulgaria regain some of its power in the beginning of XIVth century but at that time Serbian power had risen. After Serbian victory in 1330 Serbia for a while became the most powerful country in the Balkan peninsula but Bulgaria was still an important country. Bulgaria was the first Balkan couhtry to fall victim of the Ottomans but not because it was the weakest ( as weak as other Christian countries ( Serbia, Byzantium) ) but because it was situated in the centre of the Balkan peninsula and its capital was not Constantinople.
So this is the Bulgarian history in brief. For more info I'm ready to give if asked~;) . I've mentioned it in other posts but I decided to put it here so more people can read it. Other my posts on this topic can be found in in
' Over 30 factions ' thread. So I think Bulgaria should be at least minor (but not rebel) faction.
Here is my favourite ( or at least most used) map of Bulgaria. I'll put it here again to make my point more clear
http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~nikola1/Bul/IVAN-ASEN-2.jpg
And once again thanks to http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~nikola1/Bul/IVAN-ASEN-2.jpg.
P.S. :oops: as always my explanations are far more than needed.

[Prince Cobra]

spain_medieval , as far as I know the byz empire lost its all lands in Italy in 1071 (Bari). And I think it had little in the northwestern Minor Asia. And Antioch and Edesa was ruled until 1085 by a byzantine not by an Armenian tycoon. But the map is good- it's interesting to me to learn how many muslim countries there was in Spain.
Edit:Disregard my note for the not-armenian tycoon. I checked his name Filaret Bachram. Maybe he's armenian,I am not sure. I am not sure he was loyal to byz then...

[spain_medieval]

In single 1080 there were 2 Christian kingdoms in Spain:

1- The kingdom of LEON
2- The kingdom of NAVARRE

(Aragon was Muslim and Castile did not even exist)

The kingdom of LEON

http://members.fortunecity.es/edepaz/images/leon-escudo.gif

The kingdom of NAVARRE

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Arrano_Beltza.svg/180px-Arrano_Beltza.svg.png

http://www.iturnet.es/navarra/spanish_kingdoms_1030.jpg

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

Stephen Asen,I think you weren't fer when you spoke about Bulgaria.I also said that Bulgaria need to be in the MTW2 but I must say some facts.First Second Bulgarian Tzardom was established when crusaders conquer constantinopole.Brothers Asen rebelion in the late 12century was not a suces.Also Serbia was bigest power in the balkans in the whole 14century until the Kosovo Battle.Mongol invasion had weaken the Bulgarian Empire,but Bulgaria after invasion had recovered and with Mihailo Shisman they in the aliance with Byzantine Emperor Andronic the third declared war to Serbia.Bulgaria was defeted by Stefan Decanski in the batle at Velbuzd,in that battle young Dusan(later emperor called the Mighty)show the world his military skils.After that battle Bulgaria had been friendly with Serbia and they were in the aliance until Dusan sudden death in 1355.After his death Serbia was the devited to the Serbian Feudal lords but they were stronger then Bulgaria in that period of time.I yhink that Serbia and Bulgaria need to be in MTW2 and I think that Kosovo battle should be historical battle,and also it could be historical battle at Klokotnica in 1230 when Ivan2.Asen won a battle against Epir Despot Teodor 1. Angelo.

[BHCWarman88]

will they have the Swiss Armounded Pikemen like they did before in the first MTW,and will they have the Swiss too,cuz I like playing as the Swiss on MP on VI..

[Viking]

EUROPE IN 1075

http://www.uam.es/departamentos/filoyletras/hmedieval/especifica/cuadernos/mapas/1075.gif


Why have you put Denmark in parenthesis beneath Norway? At 1050 the dark ages under Danish control had yet to come..

[bozkirsovalyesi]

cilikia armenia error ... after 1080...

in anatolia .. aegean - marmara coasts ..
and palestine.. 1076 - 1081 selchuk conquest..

vlahs error.
danube north be vlahs: after 1230s

khazars error.
after 965 ...absent khazars..

[Prince Cobra]

Stephen Asen,I think you weren't fer when you spoke about Bulgaria.I also said that Bulgaria need to be in the MTW2 but I must say some facts.First Second Bulgarian Tzardom was established when crusaders conquer constantinopole.Brothers Asen rebelion in the late 12century was not a suces.Also Serbia was bigest power in the balkans in the whole 14century until the Kosovo Battle.Mongol invasion had weaken the Bulgarian Empire,but Bulgaria after invasion had recovered and with Mihailo Shisman they in the aliance with Byzantine Emperor Andronic the third declared war to Serbia.Bulgaria was defeted by Stefan Decanski in the batle at Velbuzd,in that battle young Dusan(later emperor called the Mighty)show the world his military skils.After that battle Bulgaria had been friendly with Serbia and they were in the aliance until Dusan sudden death in 1355.After his death Serbia was the devited to the Serbian Feudal lords but they were stronger then Bulgaria in that period of time.I yhink that Serbia and Bulgaria need to be in MTW2 and I think that Kosovo battle should be historical battle,and also it could be historical battle at Klokotnica in 1230 when Ivan2.Asen won a battle against Epir Despot Teodor 1. Angelo.
I am absolutely sure Petar and Asen succeded in restoring Bulgaria 1185-1186. Most probably you were misled by the fact that byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus restored his power in Bulgarian lands. But he didn't put ANY army there (byz sarcastically joked that Isaac II did for a month that what Basil II had done for decades ) and after a few months Bulgarian rebels came back with a Cuman reinforcement. Bulgarian tsardom was restored successfully in 1186 (again ) and Isaac II Angelus tried to defeat Bulgarians again. NO SUCCESS- two months siege of Lovech ( a powerful fort) and he came back in Constantinople. It's true byz didn't admit Bulgaria was restored but in fact Bulgaria was restored. One more proof during the Third crusade in 1189 the crusades of Frederick Barbarossa passed through the Balkan peninsula there was a conflict between byz and Frederick and then Petar and Asen ( Bulgarians suggested to give 60 000 troops while Serbs 30 000 ( of course both were exaggerated by the historians) against the byz ( which meant they were free in 1189 ). After the Crusade threat passed in 1190 Isaac II tried to defeat Bulgarians but was defeated ( he almost saved his own life).
Bulgarian tsardom was officially proclaimed to be a independent state on 8th of November 1204 by pope Innocent III some months after the fall of Constantinople but THAT WAS THE OFFICIAL ACT WHILE THE REAL WAS TWO DECADES EARLIER. Maybe that misled you.
The second about Michael Shishman. Bulgaria was for more than 50 pillaged by the Mongol hordes and that could not be overcome in 3 decades. In addition Bulgaria lost many of its traditional medieval lands ( Tracia, Macedonia and even Walachia) because of the Mongol invasion. And in addition Andronicus III wasn't very loyal ally ( if at all he could be called 'ally')
About the third statement - maybe my point was not very clear. Bulgaria fell first not because it was the weakest ( because of the weakest organisation, the weakest army in such aspect) but because geographically it was exposed to the Turkish raids and I'm sure if Serbia was in the central Balkan peninsula and Bulgaria in the west Bulgaria would have resisted( for ex. would have fallen in 1459) far more than Serbia . And what about Byzantium- she was definately not the weakest Balkan countries but it had to fight first against the Turkish invaders and that doomed byz to be the city-state in the Balkan peninsula. Just geography.
spain_medieval I was not surprised by the number of the Christian states but of the Muslim ones.

[Prince Cobra]

[QUOTE=bozkirsovalyesi]

vlahs error.
danube north be vlahs: after 1230s

QUOTE]
I think vlachs appeared in the end of XIIIth century ( although the process of forming of the vlachs as an ethnic group started after 1018).

[spain_medieval]

SPAIN

Kingdom of Navarre.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Blason_Navarre.png
http://www.dpz.es/ifc/AtlasH/indice_epocas/medieval/img/40b.gif

[spain_medieval]

SPAIN

Kingdom of LEON ( and Castile )

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Armes_Le%C3%B3n_ancien.pnghttp://www.cobosdesegovia.com/Imagenes/castillaleon.jpg

http://es.geocities.com/endovelico2001/dibus/castillos/mapleon.gif

[Prince Cobra]

Nice picture, spain_medieval:2thumbsup: . I'm interested in the Muslim states in the continent, too.:inquisitive:
Tzar Dusan of Serbia. Please note that after 1355 the biggest Balkan power are the Ottomans not the remnants of the Serbian empire. Although they had some successs they were doomed,too.
Edited(to make this clear):Anyway, I'm for Bulgaria and Serbia in the game,too.

[spain_medieval]

Nice picture, spain_medieval:2thumbsup: . I'm interested in the Muslim states in the continent, too.:inquisitive:
Tzar Dusan of Serbia. Please note that after 1355 the biggest Balkan power are the Ottomans not the remnants of the Serbian empire. Although they had some successs they were doomed,too.


Thanks, are a pleasure. :laugh4:

The kingdoms of SPAIN:

1- The kingdom of Castile and Leon:


first shield http://www.sbs.es/canalejas/escudo%20leon%202.GIF second shield http://www.dhistoria.com/web/img/heraldica-91.jpg


2- The kingdom of Navarre.


first shieldhttp://members.fortunecity.com/gudari/batzuk/arrano.JPG
second shield http://www.dhistoria.com/web/img/heraldica-102.jpg

Do you like too ? Do you like Spain ? :juggle2:

[spain_medieval]

SPAIN

- The kingdom of Navarre:
http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articulos/ltramon/navarra/escudo_navarra.gif

Navarrese horseman

http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articulos/ltramon/navarra/navarra7.jpghttp://www.lilliputmodel.com/articulos/ltramon/navarra/navarra8.jpg


Navarrese infant

http://www.hobbiesguinea.com/images/54073.jpg

[allan]

first sorry for my poor english ,
as a muslim i like to clear somethings about the muslims factions history ,
after the great Umayyads (who controled the land starting china borders to spain) came the abassids 758 when they came up and kill all the Umayyads family members , one of the Umayyads succesfully ran to spain (abdulrahman) and there they named him as the caliphate of all muslims , meanwhile , the abassids chose one of then (almansor) to be the caliphate who control all the lands later on execpt for spain which become the great ANDALOS .
and to make it clear abassids and Umayyads is finaly from the same family , as abassids named after a man called (abu al abass) who was the uncle of prophit mohammed , umayads named after another unlce , who was the brother of (abo al abbas) .
then later on and after more than 300 years abassids become very weak and so another ppl come up and control . its very long story , so i'll talk about the last one , year of falling , seljuks was controling bagdad (capital of abassids) as they was on a high positions sarounding the abassids caliphate , so there u can say that the caliphate on that time was only using a holy title exactly same like the pop in rome this time .cuz he is from the same muhammeds family , only to buy ppl agreament of each state controler . so he must bless the state controlers to make it legal , and some of this states was mumloks , seljuks fatimats . so on mtw2 abassids was the best chose of faction on east . using turks is complitly wrong , unless they mean seljuks . the abassids empire fall in after the mangols horde came from east and enter bagdad kill and burn including the caliphate (1258). after the EYN JALOT battle king qutoz defeted mangols mumluks come up and control syria with saladin leading , after saladin takeover palistine from u guys , he fight the fatimads and here must clear one point fatimads was shea muslims saladin was sunna so they where enimes so we cant call both of them egyption , one more point must be clear on mtw !! who was the egyption !! fatimads or mumluks ! which both of them was not egyption , mumluks is kurds by the way .
almohads was only barbarian nation on that time , later on they made there empire ,
so mtw must name the muslim factions on one of this 2 ways
1- abassids or seljuks on east ,fatimads on egypt , rabels muslim states on spain .
2- mumluks on east capital is demascis . fatimads on egypt capital ( before mumloks win over fatimads and control egypt ) rabels on spain , barbarian almohads on north africa capital is moroco .

regards

[spain_medieval]

reasons not to put to Potugal in this game:

1- Portugal begins to exist like so as of century XIII.

2-In the Iberian Peninsula, other important kingdoms but at the time exist in that it is developed to the game like the kingdom of Navarre and the kingdom of Aragon.

3-The factions of the game are limited and the representative kingdoms but of Iberia are due to put, at the time at which the game is developed.

4-Spain at the moment has 40 million inhabitants and of possible buyers of this game. One is not due to put the faction of Portugal and not to put other kingdoms of Spain.

thanks

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

to Stephen Asen.I am sorry for my bad english so i cant say what i realy want to say.I expect that you are from Bulgaria,of course you know that i am from serbia.I still go in to high school.I coud not reply sunner couse I was on competition from HISTORY.I study midle age.SO i Think I know what was hapening in the balkans.First and most important,both serbia and Bulgaria need to be in the game.I just want to say that,Otomans were not the biggest power in the balkan until Batle at river Marica.Vukasin Mrnjavcevic and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic atacked otomans but,as the night fall Turks have atacked the Serbian Camp and they killed entier army who was in the bad and sleeping.After that Turks becomed biggest force on the balkans.Also need to say,Serbian lands in late 14century were all throw the Aegian sea.So we were first who feal Otoman power.Also after Batle at Kosovo where Sultan Murat was killed Bajazit the lightening seize the throne and finish the battle.Battle was a draw,but real concequences were felt only by the serbs who managed to stop Turks for 70 years.But After Battle Bajazit conquer Bulgaria.SO TURKS FIRST ATACKED SERBIA,BUT THEIR ATEMPT WAS FAILER AND WHEN THEY WERE STOPED THEN THEY ATACKED BULGARIA AND CONQUER YOUR ANCESTORS LANDS.This what i know about midle age in the balkans so if you think i am wrong please reply.I like to learn...
Thanks

[allan]

hi again ,
here is a map for ottmans historical empire during time ,
as u can see , ottmans is not that old empire,
before (1359 to 1451) u can call it only a small state must not be included as a great nation on mdt , 1451 for godsake , isnt it too late !!
regards
https://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6524/093xr.gif

[Watchman]

Yeah, but at what is usually considered the beginning of the Middle Ages proper (ie. late 11th century) nobody had even heard of the Ottomans and the Seljuqs of Rum (AKA Great Seljuqs) controlled a whole lot of territory in Asia Minor... They collapsed later under internal troubles and Mongol pressure (with some tacit and characteristically sneaky Byzantine assistance), and the Ottomans grew out of the chaotic jumble of little (and usually short-lived) Turkish princedoms that formed a sort of no-mans land in Asia Minor as a result.

[Prince Cobra]

to Stephen Asen.I am sorry for my bad english so i cant say what i realy want to say.I expect that you are from Bulgaria,of course you know that i am from serbia.I still go in to high school.I coud not reply sunner couse I was on competition from HISTORY.I study midle age.SO i Think I know what was hapening in the balkans.First and most important,both serbia and Bulgaria need to be in the game.I just want to say that,Otomans were not the biggest power in the balkan until Batle at river Marica.Vukasin Mrnjavcevic and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic atacked otomans but,as the night fall Turks have atacked the Serbian Camp and they killed entier army who was in the bad and sleeping.After that Turks becomed biggest force on the balkans.Also need to say,Serbian lands in late 14century were all throw the Aegian sea.So we were first who feal Otoman power.Also after Batle at Kosovo where Sultan Murat was killed Bajazit the lightening seize the throne and finish the battle.Battle was a draw,but real concequences were felt only by the serbs who managed to stop Turks for 70 years.But After Battle Bajazit conquer Bulgaria.SO TURKS FIRST ATACKED SERBIA,BUT THEIR ATEMPT WAS FAILER AND WHEN THEY WERE STOPED THEN THEY ATACKED BULGARIA AND CONQUER YOUR ANCESTORS LANDS.This what i know about midle age in the balkans so if you think i am wrong please reply.I like to learn...
Thanks
Good you are interested in the history,too:2thumbsup: . Actually now I'm too busy but I'll try to explain this in short. Actually Turkish invasion in Bulgaria started in the 40s of XIV century ( Kantakuzenus' turkish mercenaries). Before the battle of Marica (1371) the Ottomans started pillaging Bulgarian lands with their numerous akanji units and just before the battle in 1371 (before or after conquring of Adrianople-the historians aren't sure when exactly but before the battle of Marica) Philipopulis and Zagore fell. And actually (and unfortunately) both Vulkashin and Uglesha were killed
and their lands conquered (the son of Vulkashin continued ruling his father lands but was very loyal to the Turks) so these didn't resisted. And just to put that in in Medieval times the population in Vulkasin and Uglesha were Bulgarian but just at that historical moment were ruled by Serbian aristocrats ( note: I talk about Middle ages, now the area of Bulgarian population is too complicated and problematic and I'm not going to discuss it now !!!) so they both Bulgarians and Serbs fought against the invaders (although both Serbian principality and the Bulgarian states didn't participated) And actually conquering Bulgaria was not an easy process it took 25 years despite of the constant pillaging and raids ( actually these raids were decisive- it was easy to be done ( Galipoli was near) and Bulgaria was in a crisis like all Balkan states). So the Bulgarians also stopped for a while an important part of the Ottoman forces. As I said they were in central Balkan peninsula too close to Galipoli.
Anyway I totally agree Serbians stopped the Ottoman forces for an almost a century. And Kosovo battle was a really one of the greatest and more dramatic battle in history: two great rulers (Lazar and Murad I ) and the both were dead after the battle. And what about Plochnik ( just abit earlier) when the Ottomans were defeated for a first time !
But actually any Balkan country gave its bloody duty to stop the invaders and to give Europe time to prepare. And they were very similiar they were a part of one civilisation ( just like there is an western civilisation ). That's the truth they had the poor chance to be weak in the wrong time.
P.S. Maybe my next reply will be a little bit late (possibly Monday) so you have time to reflect on this.

[Meneldil]

What is that all about anyway ? I don't think CA will change their mind about the factions included in MTW2 after reading that topic, mostly filled by 'this is why my country was a major power and should be included' kinda boring posts. I'd obviously like a game with a few hundreds of playable factions a la EUII, but it's probably not going to happen with MTW2, so I'll stick with the 21 - or possibly 30 - factions that were/will be announced.

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

to Stephen Asen I am glad that you shared this information with me.You know my history book mostly say about Simeon and about Samuilo who was defeted by Vasily II Bulgarian Killer.There is little information about Bulgarian national history.Jovan Kantakuzin was former ally of Dusan the Mighty.But they broke their aliance becouse Kantakuzin hired Turks as Merceneries.In the battle at Didmotika,Turks defeted our ancestors in the great battle.Serbian,Bulgarian and Byzantian army of Kantakuzins rival Jovan IV were defeted by Turks.After that Turks have conquered Galipole(Jedrene;Hadrijanopolj)this is all the names of the same city.Battle at plocnik is not a great battle.Serb have rised up to answer on turkish raid,their Akinji(fast cavalry)was defeted by the sporadic raised army.So it wasn't great succes.Anyway I think we should consider other question one of this should be selection of the army,for both of our countries.Just in case that someone who have influence to creator of the game should read this.I have very little information about army of that time.And I need we should consider this?Also one more thing I like to know.Can you tell me when Bulgars start calling them selfs Slavs?Becouse I know that they were originaly nomadic people from
Asia,and later were asimilated by the people who were under Bulgars.

[allan]

hi again ,
this game is about history , and its much more better when they make the game as much real as posible , ( i have no idia what year it will start at )
but
if the game starts at the year 1100 must include the main strong factions , not to include a small state controled by a barbarians such as almohads or some group of familys like ottmans ,
there seljuks will be the correct choice for the east ,
if u know that seljuks will be defieted later on then go read a historical book , better than play a game .
otherwise , inclide USA , as a final result .
about MTW2 , yes they may not even know about this site or page 4 on one subject from handereds , but it is nice to share informations and know the point view of differant nations .
ea. seljuks defeat was actualy abassids . when the chalifa agree to stop fighting and deliver the army leader who was definding baghdad to the mangols , after the battle stops , mangols killed the chalifa as a reward for his brave behavier .
this is a history story from an arabian history books , never read or notice any thing about any western hand on this , not befor AIN JALOT battle when king QUTOZ asked for europ help against mangols , as they are the enimies of the whole world , but they turn him down ( -islam <> christans- war was in the red level , and the enemy of my enemy is my friend .
point view :)
regards

[Watchman]

I know the Mongols butted heads with an allied Seljuq-Byzantine army at Köse Dagh. The first day's fighting ended in a draw. The Byzantines snuck off during the night, leaving the now hopelessly outmatched Seljuqs little choice but to roll over and become Mongol vassals, which duly pretty much killed their central authority and prestige and led to the total collapse of what was left of their empire. Which of course suited the Byzantines right well. This just happened to pave way for the eventual rise of the Ottomans, but hey, they didn't have time machines.

[allan]

well as i said before i never read anything on islam history about this allience .
this is what i talked about before , differant history point view nice to be shared.
i'll disagree with u about the rise of ottmans ,
the emipre of seljuks ends on 1258 which helped to rise the mamluks with there leader saladin (KURDS). ottmans and as u can see on the map i attached before didnt capture any land of seljuks or mamluks before the year 1512 this means 250 years and more , thats why im not so happy for using the ottmans on mtw2 , cuz its little late great emipre after Mideval time , thats why i talked about time machine .
dont u agree with me about the names , calling them turks insted of ottmans , egyption isnted of fatimads or mumluks , is not good , when u call the faction control egypt ( egyption ) while they are mumluks KURDS . is shame for the good of history .
regards

[Watchman]

I'm all for fairly general faction names, unless there's different "starting eras" à la old MTW in which case using dynastic names becomes a viable option. The buggers changed all the time anyway.

[4th Dimension]

Anyway I think we should consider other question one of this should be selection of the army,for both of our countries.Just in case that someone who have influence to creator of the game should read this.I have very little information about army of that time.

Here it was also discused why Serbia should be playable and they also said which units should be in the game
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42598&page=1&pp=20

[Furious Mental]

Where the hell is Lichtenstein? We need Lichtenstein!

[Prince Cobra]

I'm back again ~:) .
Meneldil, the fact I'm Bulgarian will always put me in a position that can not be called neutral. However most often than not I'm objective. Bulgarians really deserves to be in the factions of MTW2. We, the Bulgarians ( and not only we) have the unfortunate fate to be one of the communistic countries and to be separated from the culture we've always been part of : the European culture. That's why some people are misled by our current situation and put us just as a rebels who can be bribed easily (that's one fo the few things I don't like in MTW). But note because I know it's not impossible to make all factions playable I'll glad to see them even as faction a la Burgundy in MTW. Note I don't talk about a short time of glory of Bulgarian state- for example between
IXth and XIth century (almost three centuries) Bulgarians were one of the ' great powers' in Europe ( first Byzantium, Carolingian empire (later the Western (in the beginning of XIIIth century it became France) and the Eastern (Germany) Frankish kingdoms) and Bulgaria ). After the reastauration of the state in 1185 Bulgarian state (before that between 1018 and 1185 Bulgarians were under the byzantine power but survived ) had lost some of its previous power but was still a major country in Eastern Europe ( the victory over the Latin knights of 4th crusade in 1205 and the active paticipation in the struggle for the byzantine heritage in the first half of XIIIth century are good proofs for this statement ) until the middle of XIIIth century when the Mongols invade. In XIVth century there were some attempts to strengthen but the exhaustion and so called 'crisis of XIVth century' slowed this trend fatally (the Ottomans :skull: came at the wrong time). So I hope there are some place for them because this is not a statement of fanatical patriot but the truth. So Bulgarians had to be like Burgundy- when you rule Byzantium you should be careful or some nasty reimergence of Bulgarians (who in the Medieval times covered a rather large of the Balkan peninsula) may appear .The Serbs also deserve to be included as a minor faction ( but faction not rebels- they could be small ( most of the time but they also had their glorious moment in the first half of XIVth century) but they were independent. Meneldil, also please note the argument with the Tzar Dusan of Serbs was too detailed. Nobody suggests to include some sepatistic feudal states like these of Vulkashin and Uglesha ( something like Tolouse of France(before XIIIth century) although not exactly). I hope my statement is clearer.
Tzar Dusan of Serbs your question about Bulgarians is interesting. The statement about the Bulghars and the assimilation is not exactly true. I've explained it in 'Over 30 factions' thread. Google the thread or just look one of my first posts. The explanation of your question isin ' Over 30 factions? ' thread on 4th page post #115 (also at the end of the post you can see a difference between the statements of Bulgarian and Serbian historians although in this case I think the truth is hidden in the unclear explanations of medieval historians (we all know how complicated and unclear is their writing). So nobody knows what really happened in the battle of Velbuzhd.
About the Bulgarian army I think in MTW2 there should be with a special armour piercing units (probably Bulgarian axemen or Bulgarian halberdiers) who are excellent vs knights are cheap with a good morale but not so strong if not against armoured units (esp. knights and Kataphraktois). Bulgarians were very good at ambushes esp in the mountains. There were three byz emperors who suffered badly from this- Nicephorus I (killed in 811) his heir and the next emperor Stauracius (who had to abdicate because of he had been badly hurted by the Bulgarians and died some months later) and the epiric (who crowned himself as a byz emperor) Theodore Angelus Comnenus (captured with all of his family in the battle of Klokotnitza in 1230). Some emprerors succeeded in surviving Basil II ( yes this excellent emperor was defeated and barely escaped from death in 986) and Isaac II in 1190. Oh, not only byz also the Latin emperor of Constantinople Baldwin I (captured and killed). So maybe Bulgarians should receive some bonus (more than ordinary) when are at higher place than the enemy or some hiding unit like hashishins.
After 1218 Bulgarians had elite army ( which is no militia who lost some of its importance but still existed) that was useful against the byzantines. Bulgarians used also Cuman mercenaries (very often) amd even Mongol ones.
allan I know something about this alliance. It was not so important. The byzantine help was only one unit mercenaries led by an Italian generals who fled during the battle. The more important was that Byzantium didn't used the difficulties of the Seljuk sultanate which showed how dangerous were Mongols. Anyway, it's not surprisingly you don't know about this alliance.
And Sallah-ad-din (Saladin) ruled in XIIth century (from 1171 to the last decade of XIIth century) and put the foundation of the Ayubid dynasty. He wasn't a mameluke sultan. Maybe you mean he made the dynasty who ruled the slave warriors called mamelukes (translated as 'bought slave') (analogy with Jannissaries but with some major differences ( I think they weren't born Christians like Jannissaries, not sure however)) and was eventually dethroned by them. Did I understood you right?

[Justiciar]

Where is Stockport? I want to play as the Baron of Stockport, damnit! :laugh4:

[BHCWarman88]

Where the hell is Lichtenstein? We need Lichtenstein!


Extacly,where the Hell are they??


The Game is About History, But it a Game,Not a History Book, Allan.. It Should Be Accartue, But I don't think CA going to get 8 Big , 1500 Page History Books and Look at each page,adding each thing to it..I know alot of About History,btw.. Got 3 Huge History Books and Countless Books about Rome,Mongols,Gehgians Khan, England Royaltly (Kings/Queens) and hell, I got a Mini Lbiarbray since I and my Brother go so many books..

[IrishArmenian]

The Tumurids should be musilm.

They are musilm mongols. Tamealane's people.
Are you talking about Timur, the lame? (A.K.A. Tamurlane)? I thought it was speled Timurids. And yes they are Muslim. I do wish that the Irish were incorporated in this installment, though. Maybe they are a faction that emerges as a semi-rebel faction? But I like the Russia, Byzantium (Both had Armenian territories and citizens) and probably the Scots, because they are as close tot the Irish as this game has.

[IrishArmenian]

Sicily isn't Italian. It was a mix of Italians, native Sicilians, Carthaginians, Greeks and Romans. They are Sicilian.

Anyway, how are the Timurids there? Didn't Tamerlane claim to be descended from Genghis? My Medieval history is close to nil, so excuse me if I'm wrong.
Don't forget the Arabs! They owned part of it.

[lars573]

England,
France,
Scotland,
Holy Roman Empire, ....... germany
Denmark,
Spain,
Portugal, ......................................in europe history unimportant role
Milan, .............. italian
Venice, ............. italian
Papal States, ........ italian
Sicily, ................italian
Poland,
Russia, ............ who.? 10-12 russian knezs.
Hungary,
Byzantium,
The Turks, ........ who.? great selchuks, anatolia selchuks, ottomans, and other turks.
Egypt, .............who.? 1250-1517 memluks to be kıpchak turks.
The Moors,
The Mongols, .......... who.? great mongols empire - ilkhanlis - golden horde.?
The Tumurids, .................................... 1370-1447-- late periot & short life
The Aztecs. ................................... certain nonsense
For your questions on who the Turks and Egypt represent the answer is short, all of the above. The Mongols will probably be the Golden horde (or all Mongol factions). Russia will either be all the Russian princes in 1 big faction or Novgorod then Moskovy. I also have a suspicition that the Timurids will represent all medieval Persian/Irainian states.

This is how it was in MTW, and judging by the description on the .com how it will be now (this is for Egypt).

Represents a succession of dynasties that ruled Egypt. The land is rich and populous making it an excellent power base. The army consists mainly of Mamluk heavy cavalry armed with spears and bows, supported by infantry of variable quality.
You see the factions don't always represent specific kingdoms or principalities. Half the time they represent ethnic/regional groups.



21 faction.
but 4 italian factions, (including 2 little factions)
and 5 error factions (turks,portugal,russians,timurids,aztecs)
The Papacy may be Italian but given the western european focus of the game it needs to be in their. It will act sort of like the roman senate.


where..?
great or important factions:
cumans, swiss, litvania, bulgaria, burgonia, volga bulgaria, khawarizmshashs, abbasi khaliphes, zengis.
You've got to be joking. The focus of the Medieval games is on western europe. They get the lions share of faction (and unit) diversity. Bulgaria was as important to european history as Portugal. The Abbasi Caliphs are Egypt. Khwarizmians might be includee as early on Timurids. The Swiss and Burgundians were in MTW, they might be back again.


little factions:
norway, sweden, wales, irelans, normans, navarrs, catalans, genova, bohemia, austria, kroatia, serbia, epyr, crusader states (edessa-tripoli-jerussalem-antioccu-constantinopols), vlahs (romans), patzinaks, oghuzs, georgians, abhaz-chirkess (caucasia and egypt) alans, armenians, persians, arab states, habeshs(ethiopia) and minor turk states )
If you want that kind of coverage play Crusader kings. Half of them will be included as rebel factions. And the Crusader states will be part of France. Catalans would be part of Aragon if they are still around. Vlach's, Croatians, Czech's, Austrians, alans, Armenians, Welch, Irish, Navarese, all rebel factions. About the only eastern european factions you could make a strong case for including are Lithuania and Serbia.

Because they can't have all the factions that exist in 1080 then have them evolve into the factions that exist in 1530 CA splits the difference and combines many small regional states into 1 big one.

Now these are all from MTW, I actually took the time to read the faction descriptions.
Holy Roman empire -represents ALL the constituent duchies and kingdoms of the empire as 1 faction
The Italians -represents All the city states of northern Italy.
The Turks -represents All the Seljuk states and the Ottoman state.
The Spainish -represents All the Iberian christian kingdoms (Portugal included) save Aragon. Which they put in as it was the only other strong one.
The Egyptians -represented All the pre-Mamluk dynasties in the early era (1087-1205) then the Mamluks from the high era on.
The Russians -represent All Rus Knyaz from the high (1205-1321) era onward.
The Almohads -they represent All Berber factions in western north Africa and in Spain.

For M2TW CA made some changes they split the Italians into Venice and Genoa. They took Portugal out of the Spainish faction and made them their own. This might have been nessisary to include the new world and the age of exploration. I just hope that Portugal didn't cost Aragon, I loved Aragon. The Almohads are renamed the Moors. This means that you can't complain the the faction ruling southern Iberia doesn't exist in 1080.

[Furious Mental]

Also Molvania! I Want Molvania!

[edyzmedieval]

Molvania? You read that crap book? :laugh4:

I hope the romanian provinces aren't HUNGARIAN ANY MORE!!! :furious3:

[bozkirsovalyesi]

lars573


You've got to be joking. The focus of the Medieval games is on western europe. They get the lions share of faction (and unit) diversity. Bulgaria was as important to european history as Portugal. The Abbasi Caliphs are Egypt. Khwarizmians might be includee as early on Timurids. The Swiss and Burgundians were in MTW, they might be back again.

not joke...
enemy cultures "as for when many thinness"
game be meaningless...

because... all games "easy victory"

I want balanced game...
...........................................................

edyzmedieval

Molvania? You read that crap book?

I hope the romanian provinces aren't HUNGARIAN ANY MORE!!!

I write "my recommendations map" turkish province names...
yours give "big reaction"

at that straight moment ... romania ... not romanianss...
be ... hungar and cuman countries...

[IrishArmenian]

Vlach's, Croatians, Czech's, Austrians, alans, Armenians, Welch, Irish, Navarese, all rebel factions. About the only eastern european factions you could make a strong case for including are Lithuania and Serbia.
Is there a way to play as said Rebel factions? Why can't I belong to an official faction?:wall: Though I was quite haoppy about the inclusion of the Armenian in Rome: Total War.

[Furious Mental]

'Molvania? You read that crap book?'

You're just jealous because no one has written any books about Romania.

[lars573]

Is there a way to play as said Rebel factions? Why can't I belong to an official faction?:wall: Though I was quite haoppy about the inclusion of the Armenian in Rome: Total War.
No they are just rebels. But in all TW games when a province revolts it creates a rebel faction.

Take this screen as an example.
https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7650/FunnyRebels2.jpg

In MTW if you held your cursor over a rebel army they would have a name like "The Vlach's", "The Bulgarians", "The Prussians" and so on. The ethos behind it is that any faction that existed at the time that wasn't worth including was included as a rebel faction.

[bozkirsovalyesi]

IrishArmenian...

in RTW... armenian faction... real: this a persian faction... not armenian faction.

armenia = high grounds... (district names... not national names)
......................................

lars573

lesbian rebels...?

real ""lesbos island"" (turkish midilli) .....
...

But in all TW games when a province revolts it creates a rebel faction.


every province ..... another rebel faction...
much nonsense ... much bad...

I think... example: germany:
all german provinces ... be "local people" etnic german...
and that provinces "more loyal" ....

this idea... more have logic..

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

Vlachs?
They don;t even have a state,after Slavs invasion of Balkan peninsula they were largely killed or asimilated,after invasion they went to hills and gratuadly adopts slavic names and culture.After invasion name Vlach represent a Cattle breder who live in the hills.How there can be even the rebel faction called the vlachs?Also need to say Vlachs were people of Byzantine(called as Romani,not the Romans).
As far as Sebia,after year of 1330 and the Battle of Velbuzd Serbia become the greatest and the strongest faction on the Balkans,no one can say difrently.Yes I am a Serb as you all can mention,but I try to be objective.Byzantine after Slavic Invasion was really weak,there were only few great emperors that rulled over the Byzantine like Basil I,then Basil II bulgariankiller(sorry Stephen Asen he got his nickname after he defet Samuilo at the battle on Mountain Belasica,he blind 14000 bulgarian soldiers).I know you can say Samuilo wasn't Bulgar,but I don't want to go so far at history talking.After them only dynastyy of Komninus were strong,Manojlo I and Aleksije I,were strong Emperors who strenghetend Byzantine once again.I dont have good opinion about the other Emperors of Byzantine.So someone can ask why do I talk so much abaout this?
This is becouse both Serbia and Bulgaria need to be in the game so they can constantly harase Byzantine Empire as they do during the whole middle age.Byzantine many times were in the mercy of both Bulgaria and Serbia,and their havily fortificated city of Constantinopole were crushed down before the Smederevo(capital of Serbia in the Time of Otoman conquest of Serbia).
To Stefan Asen,I dont realy think that Bulgaria ever was the III military power in Europe,couse you didn't mentioned Kiev Rusia,Poland,and of course Hungary,who was real pain in the ass for all balkan country.
Also i want to say that it could be realy good that lithuania be in the game becouse they were Military great faction althow politicaly were not so great.

[lars573]

I did say that Serbia and Lithuania were the only eastern european factions that you could make a case for including. They were independant of a larger faction when the game starts (unlike Bulgaria). And were independant over the long term. Plus having in Lithuania would mean one last pagan faction.


Vlachs?
Yes. But rebel factions are tied to a province, unless the rebel army moves. In MTW the Vlach's would pop-up in Wallachia. The Moldovans in Moldovia, the Serbs in Serbia, the Rhomanoi in Constantinople (possibly Greece and Nicea, I'd have to check), the Scots in Scotland, the Irish in Ireland, the Welsh in Wales, The Armenians in lesser Armenia and Armenia, you see where I'm going.



lars573

lesbian rebels...?

real ""lesbos island"" (turkish midilli) .....
Yeah it's a joke by CA, one of the many that permiate all TW games. Like how in VI the higher levels of the spy training building is called a Cunnywarren (ofcourse you have to speak British to get the joke :laugh4: ) , which is an upgrade of a brothel.


IrishArmenian...

in RTW... armenian faction... real: this a persian faction... not armenian faction.

armenia = high grounds... (district names... not national names)
No, Armenians are not Persians. The Armenians are an indiginous people of Anatolia. Like the Carians and the Lycians.

[bozkirsovalyesi]

armenia = high grounds... (district names... not national names)

armenians language: armenian national names = HAYK
armenians language: not armenia = HAYASTAN

at that straight moment ... absent armenian state...
at that straight moment.. real: this a PERSİAN faction... not armenian faction...

antiq age armenia: all: language- culture- dinasty- population persian...
..................


this a district names... not never national names.
in medieval there are be a "muslim turk faction" names armenia...
armen-shahs faction. (1100-1207).... capital ahlat..

[Ultras DVSC]

I hope the romanian provinces aren't HUNGARIAN ANY MORE!!! :furious3:

LOL, what are you talking about??

[lars573]

He's talking about the province of Carpathia being part of Hungary like it was in MTW, which it probably will be again.


armenia = high grounds... (district names... not national names)

armenians language: armenian national names = HAYK
armenians language: not armenia = HAYASTAN

at that straight moment ... absent armenian state...
at that straight moment.. real: this a PERSİAN faction... not armenian faction...

antiq age armenia: all: language- culture- dinasty- population persian...
..................


this a district names... not never national names.
in medieval there are be a "muslim turk faction" names armenia...
armen-shahs faction. (1100-1207).... capital ahlat..
Again no, Armenias are not Persian. Their language was influenced by Persian. See below, as I could not say it better.



Like the Bosporan Kingdom, the history of Armenia stretches from the Golden Age of Greece through the Hellenistic Period to protracted status as a Roman, and Persian, client. The differences are that (1) Armenia was not a Greek colony but the realm of an indigenous people of Anatolia, like the Phrygians and Cappadocians, and (2) Armenia outlived all the Greek colonies, all the other ancient kingdoms of Anatolia, and even Rome itself. Armenia was subject to a long military and diplomatic tug-or-war between Rome and Parthia, then Rome and Persia, and finally Rome and Islâm. Even today the Armenian language reflects strong Persian influence -- which has made it difficult to determine the affinities of Armenian with other Indo-European languages. Deep Roman influence is evident in the fact that Armenia converted to Christianity in 301 AD, more than a decade before Christianity had any official toleration or status in Romania itself. Armenia has thus traditionally been regarded as the first officially Christian country, though, with uncertainties in dating, Ethiopia may be able to challenge this. The conversion of Armenia, under Tiridates III, the Great, was effected by St. Gregory the Illuminator (or Enlightener), a Roman and Christian raised Armenian, who then became Armenian Patriarch (301-325, d.332) -- undoubtedly the first Armenian Patriarch, although later the line was reckoned back to the Apostles, as with most Patriarchates.

[Ultras DVSC]

He's talking about the province of Carpathia being part of Hungary like it was in MTW, which it probably will be again.

And? Why shouldn't be Transylvania part of the Hungarian Kingdom?! :stunned: It was for 1000 years, what we can see now is just a temporary state... ~;)

[bretwalda]

LOL, what are you talking about??


edyzmedieval[/B]]
I hope the romanian provinces aren't HUNGARIAN ANY MORE!!!

He was joking, obviously... He is playing MTW, so he has to know at least something about history :wink: :2thumbsup:

[De' Medici]

Vlachs?
They don;t even have a state,after Slavs invasion of Balkan peninsula they were largely killed or asimilated,after invasion they went to hills and gratuadly adopts slavic names and culture.After invasion name Vlach represent a Cattle breder who live in the hills.How there can be even the rebel faction called the vlachs?Also need to say Vlachs were people of Byzantine(called as Romani,not the Romans).
.

Tell me you're joking. :furious3: ~:pissed:

[Diurpaneus]

But the most important is the present :laugh4:
anyway....bretwalda & ultras dvsc....

We all know that the magyars were nomadic people, so in the 10th century when the 2 magyar tribes called kende & gyula entered in Transilvania (from Pannonia where the magyars first settled in Europe in the 9th century,896 more exactly) along the Mures and Somes river lines they faced the vlachs (first romanians) and slavs wich were present there first.They first conquered the city of Alba-Iulia (Gyulafehervar, in magyar) and that's how the magyars began take over the Transilvania

but later in 1600 Michael the Brave (Mihai Viteazul in romanian) conquered back Transilvania by defeating the magyar army leaded by the cardinal Andrei Bathory at the battle of Selimbar and he united the 3 romanian provinces (Vlachia ,Moldavia and Transilvania) into a single country.
after that Mihai Viteazu was betrayed in the battle of Miraslau by the army of emperor Rudolph II of HRE wich changed sides and joined during the battle the Sigismund Bathory side and lost Transilvania.he also was assassinated by him later.
That was a short brief about Transilvania in the medieval ages therefore Im not trying to write all the histroy here cause' it will take long

so CA is right and edyz didn't knew exactly the history of Transilvania......anyway..i agree with that. In that period Transilvania was under the magyar occupation and the romanian medieval states evolved a bit later in the 14th century,so it is right to not be present in the MTW2 from the beginning....the romanian states should appear in MTW2 like slavs in the Bi....If CA confirms this I will be very happy:2thumbsup:

[Ultras DVSC]

Yes, nearly. ~;)

According to the cronicles there were 7 magyar tribes in the time of the conquer (in hungarian honfoglalás, I'm sure you speak hungarian at least a bit). They made formerly an alliance, the treaty of blood (vérszerződés). Kende and gyula you've mentioned are not tribes but officies. Gyula was the general leader (Árpád), while kende was the main leader of the army (Kurszán). The conquer happened from east to west, so it wasn't Pannonia where they settled first.

Vitéz Mihály? He was just a disingenuous mass murderer who did nothing for the transylvanian romanians. What? Did he conquer Transylvania back? Firstly he only defeated Báthory in the favour of Rudolph with the székely magyars (!) who fought with him because they wanted to have their old rights again. In the other hand the vlachs never occupied Transylvania. They derived from the West-Balkan oppressing by the slavs. In the XI.-XII. century among the 511 recorded village names there were only 3 (!!) vlach-romanian. Even the romanian word for city comes from old-hungarian language: waras (nowadays: város)...

[Diurpaneus]

First of all, your informations about Vitez Mihaly are correct and I agree with them.
He defeated the Bathory in the favour of Rudolph because he wanted to make a powerful alliance against the Otoman Turks with Rudolph of HRE,he cared less about Transilvania,he only wanted to recruit more soldiers from here to conquer Istanbul,His primary goal was to destroy the turks wich were threatening Valahia (southern Romania)

Regarding other things u wrote....well....everyone makes their history how they want to believe (especially romanians and magyars).....the strongest proof regarding this is Iancu de Hunedoara (Janos Hunnyadi in magyar) and Matei Corvin (Matthias Corvinus in magyar) wich are considered by both romanians and magyars their national heroes,can 2 countries have the same national heroes?~:)
Also you must know about Gelu,Glad and Menumorout wich they formed the first states in Transilvania (Glad in Banat - western part of Romania),(Gelu in middle Transilvania) and Menumorout (Bihor and Arad county, Menumorout refused to accept the magyar occupation of duke Arpad in 907 and fought against him) before the magyar invasion,therefore they proove the existance of vlachs before magyars in Transilvania......you must read "Gesta Hungarorum" by Anonymous if you havent read it yet,there you will find the truth,i recommend it to you....to not be rude I will just say that the truth is somewhere at the middle.....

[De' Medici]

I don't think that this discussion must be brought on this thread but some things must be clarified. The vlachs were living in these lands at the time of the migrations. The lack of organised states in this region prior to the 10th century doesn't mean that the vlachs were not present in this area. The primary sources, like the chronicles of the time, must be read for better informing instead of other sources that are not objective. I see that many believe that the actual territory of Romania was empty, like the Moon or something :inquisitive:
This discussion deserves a thread in the Monastery section. :book:

[IrishArmenian]

armenia = high grounds... (district names... not national names)

armenians language: armenian national names = HAYK
armenians language: not armenia = HAYASTAN

at that straight moment ... absent armenian state...
at that straight moment.. real: this a PERS?AN faction... not armenian faction...

antiq age armenia: all: language- culture- dinasty- population persian...
..................


this a district names... not never national names.
in medieval there are be a "muslim turk faction" names armenia...
armen-shahs faction. (1100-1207).... capital ahlat..
Yes, I would've liked to see Armenia called Hayastan, but, beggars cannot be choosers. Also, Hayastan was a strong nation. At Julius Ceasar's time, it stretched from Jerusalem, to the Caucauses, to I think present day Ankara, and to the Black Sea. My people are also not a Persian people. Learn up on your history aobut my land. You will learn that in the battle of Vartananantz in 451 A.D., where the Sassanids TRIED to force Armenia to Zoroastrianism, that Armenia rebelled, but was unsuccesful due to Nobles who promised to reinforce the rebels, but sold out to the Sassanids. The rebellion was started mainly by St. Vartan (my namesake in real life). Sorry,for the history lesson, but as a junior member I cannot post in the Monasterey.

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

I am not joking.First for all,I'm from Serbia,as you can guese,in my country,Vlachs were totaly asimilated after Slavs invasion in VI and VII century,Vlachs only remained to live in the hills as catlle breder,onfortunaly,there is many problems with transalation,When I spoke about Vlachs I thougt about them.But I agree that Moldova,Romania and Valachia have a state,there were my mistake,couse I understand wrong position of Valachia when there were spoken about them earlier in this thread,I apologize for my mistake,couse same things and same tribes and nations are not saying the same on english and on Serbian language,this led me tomy mistake,I apologize once again.
Sorry for my poor english,but my knowledge of midle age history is prity good.

[De' Medici]

Don't worry Tzar Dusan of Serbs~:cheers: Although I have to say that in your country this comunity is not asimilated ~D They are living to this day especially in Vojvodina and in the Valley of Timoc (correct me if I am wrong regarding the spelling of this geographic region) and their rights as a minority are mentioned in your Constitution. Like I said, this discussion may find a proper place in Monastery, not in M2TW ~;)

[Diurpaneus]

Romania is a unlucky country, because is a latin country surrounded by non-latin countries...slavic & fino-urghic ones

Spain,France,Italy and Portugal are connected to each other....Romania is a stain of latinity in the eastern europe....with this final post I will end the offtopic talkings here.

[4th Dimension]

They are living to this day especially in Vojvodina and in the Valley of Timoc (correct me if I am wrong regarding the spelling of this geographic region)It's Valley of Timok or Timočka dolina. But for English using people to pronounce it easier, it's better to write it as Timoc.

[BalkanTourist]

Don't get me wrong, but do you think that we are really happy being seperated from our cousins from Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Poland, Slovakia and Czech Republic by the Magyars and the Romanians?

[De' Medici]

I hope that the Swiss will be included, like in the first Medieval. Imagine thousands of armoured pikemen on the battlefield. :knight:

[IrishArmenian]

Alright! Orthodox! *Looks around and notices most are either Catholic or Islamic, and cheers louder* Alright, Orthodox!

[IrishArmenian]

Oh dang, I cannot edit my posts, but I cannot wait for the Russian Faction. I hope they have Horse Archers. I have always liked medieval Russia for many reasons:
A) Armenia was part of their empire (I'm a biased person)
B) The diversity of troops. They had some conventional Christian units, but never forgot that many of them were once Steppe Nomads, so they bring the Calvary.
C) The Patriarch was never someone who threw around the word crusade. (Take no offense, Catholics) but he never really governed anything but religeon, which means much more freedom!

[Julius_Nepos]

Greetings, I haven't posted here in forever, but I thought I'd add my thoughts here as I'm very much anticipating Medieval II. I've been wondering about a couple of things regarding factions myself.

Firstly, the Byzantine Empire of this Era is in a fairly weakened state. The battle of Manzikert and the long decline since 1025 pretty much destroyed the powerful Empire Basil II built. I always felt Byzantium was too strong in MTW, holding too many provinces and in too good a position to sustain itself. I'm hoping in M2TW more consideration will be given to the actual financial and political state of the Byzantines.

I'm also wondering why Aragon is being excluded at this point. I always enjoyed using the Aragonese, and for that matter the Norman Kingdom of Sicily in the long campaign as they offered a great deal of challenge. From what I've read Aragon did exist in some form by 1080 so It's somewhat distressing it's not in there now. Especially since in later Era's the Crown of Aragon would even come to control Sicily and other territories outside its boundaries.

Furthermore, I wonder if M2TW will deal in anyway with modeling actual crusades. For example, will there be a possibility of the Latin Empire emerging in 1204 following a possibly successful 4th Crusade? The inclusion of an emergent Bulgarian Empire would be interesting as well.

I'll be watching how this develops, hopefully there will be a ballance between gameplay and accuracy we can all live with. Cheers.

[Aenlic]

Only way we'll get a good balance of gameplay and historical accuracy is if we can get CA to stop reading Cliff's Notes for their history and start listening to us for both history and gameplay.

[Mithradates]

Adding the Kathars as some kind of scripted uprising would be interesting. The event would also lead to some unusual european crusading. I think it would be amazing also if after sucessful crusades crusader states would be established.

[Sensei Warrior]

I am almost scared to post in here due to my lack of medieval historical knowledge, but what the hey, I'll throw my opinion in from my observations of the first game.

It seems to me that the following was done well enough to suit my tastes: England, France, Spain, Aragon, Italy, Germany, Sicily, Almos, Egypt, Turks, and the Byzantines. I don't know how historically accurate all those factions were, but they seemed accurate enough to have a whole lot of fun with.

In turn, it seemed like there wasn't much of anything east of Germany. There was Poland, Hungary, and Novrogod. Poland and Hungary seemed standard run of the mill factions. Nothing to exciting. No interesting units like Kataphractoi, Jannisaries, Lancers, or AUMs. No interesting positions, provences, nothing that made them stand out. Novrogod was also over there, but you had to start Nov in High, and even then, a mere few decades before the Horde. It seems like its a little lacking over there.

So I guess in terms of factions for m2tw I would like to see some more Eastern flavor if thats possible. I think that some more work over in this area of the world would help. Another faction or 2, maybe another Ortho Culture or Muslim or something.

[artavazd]

Armenia is as Armenian as Hayastan is. Hayastan comes from the word Hayk the patriarch of the armenian people. Armenia comes from the Armen tribe of the armenian highlands. During the confederacy of Urartu (mispronounciation of Ararat) the Armen-Shupria tribe was a major part of this confederacy. The armenian people are the original inhabitants of eastern anatolia, and southern caucuses.

For example Germany is called Duetchland by Germans. Is it not Germany still? is the word Germany not connected with the German people? Spanish speaking people call it Alemania. You have three diffrent words for the same place. All three words are native to the people of Germany. Another example is Finland I beleive they call their nation Saomi ( I maybe mistaken, but it is close to the word I wrote) How about the Welsh they call their nation Cyumri.

[IrishArmenian]

Armenia is as Armenian as Hayastan is. Hayastan comes from the word Hayk the patriarch of the armenian people. Armenia comes from the Armen tribe of the armenian highlands. During the confederacy of Urartu (mispronounciation of Ararat) the Armen-Shupria tribe was a major part of this confederacy. The armenian people are the original inhabitants of eastern anatolia, and southern caucuses.

For example Germany is called Duetchland by Germans. Is it not Germany still? is the word Germany not connected with the German people? Spanish speaking people call it Alemania. You have three diffrent words for the same place. All three words are native to the people of Germany. Another example is Finland I beleive they call their nation Saomi ( I maybe mistaken, but it is close to the word I wrote) How about the Welsh they call their nation Cyumri.

These turks who try to putdown Armenia are just using false propoganda, which is laughable to anyone who knows a little bit of history.
So True! Although I think everyone here tries to put their traditional thoughts and differences aside and analyze history we are still human so allow me to say this: I back up what Artavazd posted. Just my thoughts, not law. I, honestly beleive this talk belongs in the monastery, but I must take this time to comment: why doesn't the U.S. governement acknowledge the Genocide? Why not? Could you Americans do me a big favor and try to ask your politicians?
And yes, I beleive in Medeival Total War 2 that countries should be named by what they called themselves. Not what English people called them.
*Artavazd, I have also seen it spelled Haik.

[bozkirsovalyesi]

not armenians national names: armenian...
that a district names.

first age armenia = a persian faction.

at that moment not armenians national names armenian.

[econ21]

OK, let's not start bickering between nationalities or discussing real life genocides etc. That's going too far off topic for a light-hearted computer game. It's only going to derail this thread and lead to bad feeling.

If people want to discuss the factual history of these things, there's the Monastery. If they want to make moral or political arguments, there's the Backroom.

We are all friendly gamers here, albeit from different countries and with different views of the world. ~:grouphug:

[Lucjan]

In order to maintain civility and avoid any unnecessary harsh feelings, I suggest the thread be tabled for the moment, and restarted once the situations have been transferred to their correct locations.

[econ21]

OK, I'll close the thread. Threads about "which factions should be included?" often seem to end in bad blood. And I'm not sure they make much sense now as M2TW has probably finalised the list of factions by now.