Europe knew about CIA flights

[Adrian II]

Swiss MP Marty, who is investigating the rendition flights via Europe, has just finished his preliminary report to the Council of Europe. In it, he claims that the European governments almost certainly new about the flights, and that the flights themselves are part of a "system of 'relocation' or 'outsourcing' of torture".

So, only the stink created by the media forced these governments to focus on this practice, which is unacceptable and should stop now. The interesting bit should be in the next report when Marty will have to address the question why they failed to confront the U.S. over the practice.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4641810.stm)

[KukriKhan]

..."It is highly unlikely that European governments, or at least their intelligence services, were unaware," the report said....

Not to be too cynical too early, but: maybe this paves the way for the 'rougue intel worker' defense, and its correllary, the 'I was un/mis-informed by my subordinates' gambit.

[Kralizec]

Doesn't matter, the government is still responsible for what her subordinates do. And I'm not sure if I would be much happier if our government was completely incompetent and oblivious to stuff it should be knowing about :wall:

If there is any, I hope they can find hard proof that some governments had lied about this. In wich case heads must roll.

[Xiahou]

Europe knew about CIA flightsThis isn't really a surprise to anyone is it?

[master of the puppets]

i'm not, its not like it would not be in there best intrests to let the imformation not be used, i doubt the europeans helped in the torture, but i doubt they really tried to stop it, cause they probably did'nt know that the info was crap.

[Redleg]

i'm not, its not like it would not be in there best intrests to let the imformation not be used, i doubt the europeans helped in the torture, but i doubt they really tried to stop it, cause they probably did'nt know that the info was crap.

It might come up and surprise some that its possible that a few European nations helped and particapated in the Torture. Remember the "safe houses" that are being used and questioned about happen to be located in Europe. Eastern Europe but still Europe.

[Adrian II]

Not to be too cynical too early, but: maybe this paves the way for the 'rougue intel worker' defense, and its correllary, the 'I was un/mis-informed by my subordinates' gambit.Oh, but they are misinformed, my friend. And ill-advised. And irresponsible. But if they take this line of defence, that would amount to either (1) a lie, or (2) an admission of even worse incompetence than we already knew of.

Maybe they were indeed dumb enough to think they would benefit from info gained through torture. But I suspect they didn't raise the alarm because they didn't want to further jeopardise their relationship with the U.S. which is bad enough as it is. One reason why they need this relationship with U.S. is so that they can stay informed of what the U.S. is up to. Time, and hopefully Mr Marty, will tell.

[Quid]

This isn't really a surprise to anyone is it?

No, not really. Our politicians are just as bad as yours over there. No denying it.

Quid

[Rodion Romanovich]

This report comes with nothing new. The acts of certain European governments was known before and given the condemndation it and the acts of the American government deserved.

[Lazul]

If it turns out Prime Minister "phat-ass-moron" Persson (of Sweden) knew about this I guess I hate him even more then I allready do. :wall:

[Proletariat]

Swiss MP Marty, who is investigating the rendition flights via Europe, has just finished his preliminary report to the Council of Europe. In it, he claims that the European governments almost certainly new about the flights, and that the flights themselves are part of a "system of 'relocation' or 'outsourcing' of torture".

So, only the stink created by the media forced these governments to focus on this practice, which is unacceptable and should stop now. The interesting bit should be in the next report when Marty will have to address the question why they failed to confront the U.S. over the practice.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4641810.stm)

Thank you.

[doc_bean]

Isn't this old news ? :juggle2:

[Goofball]

Not to be too cynical too early, but: maybe this paves the way for the 'rougue intel worker' defense, and its correllary, the 'I was un/mis-informed by my subordinates' gambit.

Excellent. There's nothing I like better than a good old fashioned Olly North soft shoe routine.

:juggle2:

[Papewaio]

Well since all the intelligence services are outsourcing the information gathering, why can't we outsource our politicians too?

[Strike For The South]

Well since all the intelligence services are outsourcing the information gathering, why can't we outsource our politicians too?

No here is my idea we elect a president Pm whatever and if his approvals drop below 40% we shoot him.

[KukriKhan]

Excellent. There's nothing I like better than a good old fashioned Olly North soft shoe routine.

:juggle2:

Heh. Worked here. I wonder if under-30's even know what a soft-shoe routine is. :)

So far, Mr. Marty has the same info we have, media reports. If someone spills the beans via memo's, phone logs, flight manifests, or recalled conversations; in other words: 'harder' evidence...what will the outcome be for euro poli's? Will they get fired, or incarcerated, or just looked down on? Or something else?

[Xiahou]

So far, Mr. Marty has the same info we have, media reports. If someone spills the beans via memo's, phone logs, flight manifests, or recalled conversations; in other words: 'harder' evidence...what will the outcome be for euro poli's? Will they get fired, or incarcerated, or just looked down on? Or something else?I think that's an interesting point- as far as investigations go, Marty's has been pretty pathetic thus far. He hasnt come up with any more evidence than the media already had. Is this "investigation" being funded or is he doing it of his own accord?

As I've said previously, the fact that "Europe know" is pretty much a total no-brainer. I don't think anyone needed an "investigation" to suggest it.

[Adrian II]

So far, Mr. Marty has the same info we have, media reports.Not so. He has written official letters requesting information from Poland, Romania, Ms Rice, Eurocontrol and the European Satellite Centre and received their answers. He has also established a series of formal contacts with governments, intelligence services, flight control centres and others. His people are evaluating satellite images, flight data and other privileged information all the time.
If someone spills the beans via memo's, phone logs, flight manifests, or recalled conversations; in other words: 'harder' evidence... what will the outcome be for euro poli's? Will they get fired, or incarcerated, or just looked down on? Or something else?Marty reports to the 46-member Council of Europe which ≠ European Union but ≈ all of Europe. Is is their business to uphold the 'core values of democracy and human rights' throughout the continent, not to condemn individual nations or governments.

However, the EU Commission has threatened severe sanctions against any of its own member states that harbour 'black sites' on their territy.

You will be aware that there have been suspicions about Poland and Romania. Yesterday the Romanian President, after months of blank denials from his country, has finally admitted that Romania operates 'international information centres' on its soil, but without going into detail as to who runs them or whether any prisoners are held there, let alone tortured. Judging by the timing of his statement, it may well be the opening signal of further revelations about Romanian 'black sites'.

I have no idea whether the issue will have personal consequences, and for whom -- although I doubt that it will. But I am sure the episode will make countries think twice before they engage in such cooperation with U.S. services again. The rule of law on European soil is reaffirmed by it, and if it happens again (or continues to happen) heads will have to roll.

[KukriKhan]

from the BBC linked article:

...And he said he had received detailed information on Monday from Eurocontrol - the Brussels-based air safety organisation - and from the EU's Satellite Centre, including sites located in Romania...

You're right. I missed that teeny paragraph before. :bow: He's assembling info that might become evidence.

So what does your 'Journalist's Nose' (which I've come to trust) tell you, AdrianII? Will heads roll six months from now? Or will the 'black sites' just dry up as assets to US-Euro Intel, as a result of this spotlight?

[Adrian II]

So what does your 'Journalist's Nose' (which I've come to trust) tell you, AdrianII? Will heads roll six months from now? Or will the 'black sites' just dry up as assets to US-Euro Intel, as a result of this spotlight?The latter, although the sites themselves will simply be moved elsewhere and the Europeans will lose what influence they had over the way they are run and the ways in which the information gathered is used.

Some will lament the loss of this 'information position'. Personally I couldn't care less because (1) torture is and should remain illegal, and (2) all experts agree that torture is counterproductive (it may produce results in some cases, but those are far outweighed by the results of different approaches).

[Fragony]

So what if they knew?? A whole lot more effective then assesment trials and 'how not to ignite' courses. I love this new terrorist take-away thingie, we can't count on the european cowards that act like a abused wife that wonders what she did wrong. Now if the CIA is nice they kindly provide them with their 72 virgins they want to respect so badly.

*beng* byebye :laugh4:

[doc_bean]

So what if they knew?? A whole lot more effective then assesment trials and 'how not to ignite' courses. I love this new terrorist take-away thingie, we can't count on the european cowards that act like a abused wife that wonders what she did wrong. Now if the CIA is nice they kindly provide them with their 72 virgins they want to respect so badly.

*beng* byebye :laugh4:

And this is why no heads will roll, most people don't care or act like Fraggy here. It isn't too different from the situation in the US I guess.