Staffing the "Forlorn Hope"

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Continuing my exploration of siege assault tactics....


When you are staffing your Forlorn Hope*, what kind of units do you look for and why?



* For the benefit of the 2-3% of you who do not know this term, the Forlorn Hope is the first unit over the wall or into the primary breach during an assault -- the poor folks who you know are most likely to get the chop despite any prep you've put into the assault.

[saxon_maik]

Continuing my exploration of siege assault tactics....

When you are staffing your Forlorn Hope*, what kind of units do you look for and why?

* For the benefit of the 2-3% of you who do not know this term, the Forlorn Hope is the first unit over the wall or into the primary breach during an assault -- the poor folks who you know are most likely to get the chop despite any prep you've put into the assault.


Several factors influence my choices:

If my troops face a serious cavalry assault then the obvious choices are spearmen or hoplites, backed up by light infantry.

Often the besieged city's barrack type will determine the troops first up the wall or through the breach. I try to use only troops that I can immediately retrain instead of losing some of my higher-level troops.
Example: I play as the Julii and attack Segestica which is held by Dacia. Segestica has militia barracks, so after taking the town I can train hastati but not principes. In that case I use hastati instead of wasting my principes. The principes are too valuable to fend off the Dacian counterattack a few turns later.

Sometimes I also use an all-cavalry attack. This works best with settlements that have only wooden walls. After making three breaches I pour in my equites or other light/heavy cavalry. This is only useful against garrisons of light infantry/skirmishers/archers that have no anti-cavalry bonus or good defense stats. Iberian infantry and Numidian javelinmen come to mind. Warbands and desert infantry are problematic simply because of the sheer numerical advantage in unit size.

There are exceptions to this. Sometimes I deliberately sacrifice a cohort or two of triarii or praetorians when facing tough opposition such as chosen swordmen or armored hoplites. Those one or two units will take the brunt of the enemy's defensive efforts while the rest of my troops get by with minor casualties.

[fallen851]

Heavy infantry (Legionary Cohorts, Chosen Swordmen...) to open the door so I can get the rest of my units in. Depending on what the AI sends to the holes in the wall I create, I usually like to send calvary (in my personal mod, I removed all Legioniare and Praetorian Cav)) to smash through and then immediately go deep into the city so I can use them to flank.

[Monarch]

Merceneries for me, mainly because they are quick additions to my army and I dont care about them much. Especially when it's jsut a wooden wall city, usually I end up with the bottleneck gate. So I have 'waves'. Usually the mercs are heavy infantry, but I dont just sacrafice them, sometimes I'll back them up with light infantry such as Hastati. Then if there's alot of resistance and the enemy havn't fleed to the central square, then in go the principes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Merc Heavies or Merc Hops, depending on cavalry or infantry defending. Sometimes you have to just attack from every direction with everything you have and hope someone gets through.

[The historian]

Depending on what the opponent has i ussually send med-heavy cavalry to rush in to the flag and after them light cav and whatever infantry to crush the enemy coming down from the wall .If the enemy has a serious defense force that i can,t break with cav (ex hoplites) i send in some heavy infantry to push em back after pepering them as mucch as possible.

[Ordani]

Depends on the faction options. Most cultures get at least one decent heavy infantry unit, I go for the highest experience heavy foot I can muster. Experience is usually the key, since they will have to face nasty odds. The main requirement I have is for a Forlorn to hold long enough for weaker units to get through less defended points and flank the defenders, or in the case of bridge assaults for the archer's flaming arrows to do their bloody business.

If it's actually a full breach in a stone wall, and the faction has really heavy cavalry (just being called "heavy" isn't enough, it has to be something with MASS, like Graal Knights, Cataphracts, or Clibinarii) I will often send light infantry onto the walls to take towers and then ram those through with offensive infantry right behind them.

In BI, Frankish Francisca Heerbans, Saxon Chosen Axemen, and Lombard Berserkers are some of the best. First Cohorts are decent, but mostly because of their extra size, and multiple Plumbatarii/Franciscas are preferable if they can position for throwing. Cavalry-wise nothing even comes close to Clibinarii Cataphracts and Immortals, although the few factions that get Elephants can use those in some situations to decent effect, just watch the rampaging.

In Rome, Arcanii were half-way decent if you could get them to 3+ experience, but the best were Egyptian Axemen and their various barbarian counterparts. Post-Marian Ubarn Cohorts were staples for the Roman factions, but awfully expensive.

[orangat]

You got the wrong idea. You're describing a nasty badass shocktrooper unit not a totally dispensible cannon-fodder unit.

My folorn hopes are just any unexperienced infantry I can spare.

[Somebody Else]

My forlorn hope would be the various bolts/flaming rocks/arrows I send over prior to my hard-core infantry...

[orangat]

Folorn hopes are just meatbags to use as cannon-fodder, speedbumps and distractions not experienced troops.

[Celt Centurion]

Going against a wooden wall, I tend to put cheap infantry on the rams and protect them with cavalry and archers. Once I have a breach, I send in heavier infantry and cavalry. If they were unavailable, such as in the earlier stages of a game, I send what I have, or use mercenaries.

If I take a stone wall city, I tend to use the heaviest infantry I have as shock troops to fight them where needed. I will also put light infantry in the towers for the purpose of running through the towers once I'm on the walls. Heavy infantry does the fighting on the walls while the light infantry runs around "converting" the towers. If I find myself without light infantry, and there are no bad guys on the wall, I use archers to run through the towers. Then they also have the option of shooting at any bad guy cavalry unfortunate enough to ride under them.

When the assault is over, and local retraining is not possible, I drag and drop to refill casualties being careful to leave at least a few from each unit to be the "core" that the unit is retrained around. (I try to keep each high quality unit active and retaining it's colors) Then I send them to the nearest place that can retrain them. About the only time I drag and drop all of a unit is mercenaries and "obsolete" units such as Hastati, Principes and so forth after the Marius event, or as the Greeks, I use up the peltasts once I can get heavy peltasts.

Quite honestly, riots after I take over a town tend to cause higher casualties than the assault did.

Some may think that it's nuts sending in my best troops, and it probably is. On the other hand I tend to have less casualties using my best rather than my flimsiest. Send in about 5 or 6 Urban Cohorts with a total of maybe 30 casualties, or send in the same number of a lighter infantry with ten times the casualties. Unless one is trying to have a lot of casualties, it makes some sense.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[professorspatula]

Well if it's cannon fodder you're on about - then Barbarian mercenaries and also Spanish and Eastern ones. They're numerous and seldom worth keeping for long. Barbarian mercenaries in particular are too expensive to keep for anything but temporary duties, so sending them over the wall to weaken the defenders whilst my better soldiers wait for the ideal moment to follow is the way to go. Spanish mercenaries are fairly handy in a fight, plus have pila, so they often go first when assaulting a wooden wall (Illyrians are a possible sustitude for these). If no mercenaries are about, it's Hastati or Infantry Auxilia who get the honoured role of leading the assault. They're easily replaced so losing a few is no hardship. Those that survive are typically merged into the next such unit after each battle until they've reached enough experience to be spared and lead the second or third wave. Tis is a nice moment to see your units slowly gain repute and be 'promoted' as reward. Much better than retraining them all the time.

In one such siege where I chose a basic Roman Infantry auxilia unit to lead the assault into the city, I had them enter and go on defensive mode in front of the breach in the wall I had created. I stationed as many archer and missile troops nearby on the other side. The Auxilia unit bravely held off a massive enemy assault lead by a Chosen warlord and several units of infantry and cavalry. After about a minute or more of intense defensive action on my spearmen's part, I sent in the cavalry and routed much of the enemy. The Auxilia had lost nearly half their number, but in front of their spears were the bodies of 150 or more Dacians. Hundreds more lay ahead where the cavalry and then the rest of the infantry had chased the defenders back to the town square. I think the 9+ star general had some influence on the auxilia unit's success, but it was a heroic and sweet moment nevertheless.

Tragically, I have a screenshot of the incident:
https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8208/holdtheline1dz.th.jpg (https://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holdtheline1dz.jpg)

What I don't have is the screenshots of the single onager unit killing 292 dumbfounded and chargrilled Dacians before finally running out of ammo and withdrawing. ~D

[rory_20_uk]

As I'm sure most do I try to have two breaches. In go the true folorn hope into the first. Invariably spearmen who basically have orders to take time to die. Into the second breach is whatever I think I can afford to hit the defenders in the side - often the general's cavalry unless the defenders have a good chace to kill him.

Same with walls: grind the defenders down with cheap spearmen as losses are almost always immaterial. If you ca shower the defenders with arrows so much the better.

I have yet had need to commit my cream at the first breach - they usually go in through the gate or up ladders after the towers have been subdued

~:smoking:

[_Aetius_]

Theres two general lines of thinking who you send in your first troops;

1,Send in troops who are expendable and of lesser quality than those you wish to protect. The good side is that even if casualties are significant the troops you lose you don't really care about, the bad side is they could be utterly routed and you lose a portion of your army. Compromising your chances of victory.

OR

2, Send in your best, the men you trust the most, the good side is being your finest they are more likely to succeed, the bad is that you never want to lose troops you care about alot of money to recruit and train. You could possibly lose your best men in a failed assault or simply incur heavy casualties resulting in poor effectiveness in later battles.

Its a fine line you have to walk, I tend in sieges were the danger of defeat I estimate at say 20-30% to send in mercenaries, but most of all expendable troops like auxillaries and troops native to foreign lands. If the stakes are higher I send in mercenaries backed up by some more important troops 1 or 2 units of principes for example.

If the stakes are really high and the city simply must be taken, then I send in the bravest and best, the finest men I have.

Overall the best general strategy is to use both to support one another, never leaving it to chance that your weaker troops could be slaughtered by having better troops nearby.

[Slug For A Butt]

I tend to break wooden walls then pummel them with archers. Then send in low quality troops ( like spearmen ) with a little experience, they can hold just long enough for my heavy infantry to follow them in and engage the already busy defenders. The other thing I think is nice is that I can retrain these low quality troops straight away after taking the settlement. Works for me.