How do spearmen vs cavalry bonuses work?

[orangat]

1. How much bonus does spearmen/phalanx get exactly against cav?
2. Do phalanx using secondary weapons still get bonus against cav?
3. According to the readme in patch 1.3, spear bonus are now modable. Where is it?
* Spear bonuses against cavalry have been increased (they were previously hard coded and are now moddable, in addition to mount_effect)
* Braced spearmen (standing ready) now reflect part of any attacking cavalry’s charge bonus back on the horse

Is the bonus coded under stat_sec_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4?

[x-dANGEr]

1. You can see that through the export_descr_units.
2. Nope.
3. In the text file above.

* Yes!?
* Yes!?

Hmm.. I don't think so, what's their stat_pri their and what's it attributes? (The spear bonus applies even if their are charging, right?)

[Ciaran]

It should be stat_pri, since spears don´t have secondary weapons, only phalanx units do, but the line after that is precisely that. The "spear_bonus_4" means that the unit gets an attack bonus of 4 points when fighting horses. I´m not sure about the differences between "spear" and "light_spear" but I asume it has something to do with the penalty a spear unit gets when fighting infantry.

[Watchman]

I'd hazard a guess the main difference is that light_spears, being shorter and generally wimpier sticks only used by seriously low-end militia types, aren't as good at the "brace for impact" charge-reflection thing.

[orangat]

1. You can see that through the export_descr_units.

No you can't. At least not all of it.



3. In the text file above.

I already know that. I want to know how much and where exactly.



* Yes!?
* Yes!?

Duuh?!

[orangat]

Jerome in the CA Q&A had this to say:

"The spear bonusses are fed into the stats system in a couple of different ways, via the mounts bonusses (which are direct attack modifiers against units mounted on that particular mount type) and via the 'spear' weapon attribute. Units which are marked with spear gain a +4 combat bonus against cavalry and use the cavalry's charge bonus against them, while cavalry get a -4 attack penalty against them."

So what I seem to be getting from this is that there is a hardcoded bonus vs cavalry class units (mount type horse or category cavalry?) for class spearmen.
If the readme from patch 1.3 says that it is moddable then where is this located in export_descr_unit?

And then there is an additional modifier from the weapon attribute which I take must be the spear_bonus_8 or spear_bonus_4 attribute.

[x-dANGEr]

Here is an example:


type greek hoplite spartan
dictionary greek_hoplite_spartan ; Spartan Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_hoplite_spartan_pylos, 40, 0, 1.3
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 16, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_sec 12, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 9, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1190, 460, 120, 180, 1190
ownership greek_cities
The primary weapon of the Spartan Hoplite has 2 attributes:

1) Spear: Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
2) Spear_bonus_8: +8 attack VS cav.

So I 'suppose' that a Spartan Hoplite unit gains +8 attack exactly VS a cav in a fighting status. Though, I'm not sure what happens if it's charged by a cav unit from front.

[orangat]

x-dANGEr, I don't think +8 from spear_bonus_8 is the only bonus which is what I've been saying.

According to Jerome's post there is mount bonuses (which I take to mean anything with horse as an attribute) as well which he says is moddable.

From my experiments, a unit of triarii can rout an armored cataphract unit faster than urbans (if javs are not thrown). Triarii has an attack of 7+8 bonus=15. Urban cohort has an attack of 14. Just a +1 difference in attack couldn't have been it could it?

And slight o/t, the weird and stupid butt spike effect happens since spears pointed in the wrong direction can still reflect some of the charge bonus back! Unfortunately this modifier is probably hardcoded.

[Puzz3D]

x-dANGEr, I don't think +8 from spear_bonus_8 is the only bonus which is what I've been saying.

According to Jerome's post there is mount bonuses (which I take to mean anything with horse as an attribute) as well which he says is moddable.

From my experiments, a unit of triarii can rout an armored cataphract unit faster than urbans (if javs are not thrown). Triarii has an attack of 7+8 bonus=15. Urban cohort has an attack of 14. Just a +1 difference in attack couldn't have been it could it?

And slight o/t, the weird and stupid butt spike effect happens since spears pointed in the wrong direction can still reflect some of the charge bonus back! Unfortunately this modifier is probably hardcoded.

A +1 difference is only about a 10% combat advantage which is very small. So it would seem that the mount bonus is in addition to the spear bonus.

Charge bonus wasn't working properly in RTW v1.3. It was fixed in RTW v1.5.

[orangat]

I didn't see anything related to cav or charge bonus in the 1.5 readme.

[Puzz3D]

I didn't see anything related to cav or charge bonus in the 1.5 readme.
Sorry. That's right. Charge was fixed in v1.3. Naval invasions, Roman diplomacy and the AI not trowing pila were fixed in v1.5.

[orangat]

Any idea how to fix buttspike issues? At what version did it crop up?
Its bizzare that such a huge issue was overlooked and/or left unfixed at v1.5. Its such an obvious problem when cav drop like flies charging spearmen in the rear.

[x-dANGEr]

You're right. But kindfully, not all cav.

About the mounted effects, the only effect I know about them is the penalty/bonus for a ele/chariot/horse vs basic types of units, only!

[orangat]

You're right. But kindfully, not all cav.

About the mounted effects, the only effect I know about them is the penalty/bonus for a ele/chariot/horse vs basic types of units, only!

When you say not all cav, are you referring to the buttspike issue?
I'm almost certain that all horse cavalry (except for chariots which I haven't tried) will sustain casualties on contact with any spear unit infantry AT THE REAR because of the buttspike.

[Watchman]

Not that I've seen. And I've recently smashed quite enough Egyptian phalanxes with Pontic Heavies to have had ample opportunity to observe.

The issue seems rather temperamental really. I've had generals die of, far as I could tell, riding across the pikes of a friendly phalanx, and never seen anything reliable one way or the other about the butt-spike issue. So I've just resolved to ignoring it beyond the safety measure of not taking generals too close to coherent phalanxes. Since other cavalry can be retrained anyway the odd buttspike casualty isn't really a problem.

[orangat]

I've tested Seleucid cataphracts and various Roman cav with Seleucid phalanx, Macedon phalanx, Greek phalanx, Roman Triarii and Poeni, some in-game, the rest in custom battles. The buttspike becomes really apparent when charging because of the reflection bonus.

[Watchman]

Huh. Well, I do tend to make a point out of running rings around the buggers and attacking the flank, but the horses quite often end up going for the rear anyway. Thus far mass deaths have been conspicuously absent.

[orangat]

Its not that cav can't win a engagement if they attack the rear, it just that there are unnecessary casualties from the butt spike effect

[Watchman]

And I'm specifically saying it's just those I haven't seen. Of course, given the AI's patent inability in handling phalanxes, it might also be they were never "braced" whenever my horses struck.

[gardibolt]

Last night I lost a bunch of cavalry to friendly butt-spiking. :dizzy2: Run around the phalanx, not through it, you dimwits!

[orangat]

Try testing Roman cav+hastati as a holding unit against Seleucid phalanx.
You should lose approx 10 cav right on contact. You'll still lose about that many when the phalanx is still on the move and haven't engaged hastati yet.

[x-dANGEr]

I know what you mean about the butt spike and it always happens.. Not with Catas though. Try playing Scythia and you'll know what I mean. YOu charge the rear with your Horse Archers and you lose sometimes up to 10 men..