Another mystery of the TW Universe I need solved

[Matrixman]

I've been playing Mtw for years, but am now getting into Shoggy for a while. Getting involved in the org has given me the chance to ask deep and meaningful questions such as......

When a ranged unit comes under fire from other missile units, does it lose any of its power or accuracy by changing from close formaton to loose formation?

:thinking2:

[Martok]

Not as far as I'm aware of, no. For archers, there's no real downside to putting them in Loose formation--except of course for the fact that they take up more space on the battle map (and can therefore get in the way of your other units at times).

The only thing that really affects archers' abilities to successfully shoot things (aside from getting caught in melee combat, of course!)--in Shoggy or Medieval--is weather and terrain.

[Ludens]

When a ranged unit comes under fire from other missile units, does it lose any of its power or accuracy by changing from close formaton to loose formation?
No. In fact, loose formation improves accuracy, as it allows the first three ranks to fire without accuracy penalty instead of just the first two ranks. However, changing formation does cost time, especially at larger unit sizes, so you will take casualties if you do this under fire.

[Just A Girl]

Muskets have low honour.
Using them in loose formation Can cause them to become even more likley to rout,

Also as there usualy underfire already when you terll them to go loose formation.
they will also be suffering a morrral drop from being shot at,
This combined with no close proximaty freindly units can cause rout.

[Matrixman]

Thanks for the responses guys.

"Muskets have low honour.
Using them in loose formation Can cause them to become even more likley to rout", ...Just a Girl, do you reckon this is true for low honour SA's and CA's as well?

[Just A Girl]

Not as true as it is for muskets.

you see "the way i understand it is..."
everything has Base honour,
For instance Nag cave have a base honour of 8 i believe.
So adding honour on to them costs more than adding honour on to a Yari ashigaru who has Low base morrale.

Muskets have low base morrale,
So are more likley to rout.

They need men in suport or will easily begin to get unsteady.
and placing them in loose formation mearly tends to make them feel more icolated. (the guys are cowards basically)

Archers and CA have the abilaty to mele and do it quite well for what they are.
They also arent so dependant on suporting units
And I beleve have Higer base morrale.

so although generaly Yes loose formation should caus your men to feel more icolated.
It tends to work quite well with archers and CA.

But avoid loose formation with muskets.
the morrale drop can be enough to sway the game in the opponets favour in MP game's

also when you change formation your muskets ant fiering. Which gives the opponent a few free shots whilst you change to loose formation.
Then you relize they dont like loose formation. And tell them to use close formation.
And they get shot at agin not being able to return fier. whilst there mooving.

Obvioulsy there could be exeptions....

I.e

you have 4 groups of muskets vs 1 group of SA.
you may want to use loose formation then.
"personaly I wouldnt though"


if you need more info.
you may wish to look at my units stats page on my web site..
Its likley that you know everything that i say.
But just in case heres the url...

http://shoguntw.2ya.com

[Ludens]

Muskets have low honour.
Using them in loose formation Can cause them to become even more likley to rout,

Also as there usualy underfire already when you terll them to go loose formation.
they will also be suffering a morrral drop from being shot at,
This combined with no close proximaty freindly units can cause rout.
You are right about the morale penalty, but it isn't caused by lack of support. Loose formation gives -2 morale and I think a defense penalty as well. Off course, because the soldiers are quite far from each other a melee will go badly anyway.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Also, watch out, if your unit is on the edge of range, putting it in loose can cause the back row to move out of range and they won't fire.

[Drisos]

Thanks for tip, Sasaki! ~:) I did not knew that range depended on the last row of a unit... Hmmm. This would also cause units with only a few rows to fire a longer distance then units with many rows.. another advantage of the 2 or 3 rows of a musketeer unit:yes:

[Maeda Toshiie]

You are right about the morale penalty, but it isn't caused by lack of support. Loose formation gives -2 morale and I think a defense penalty as well. Off course, because the soldiers are quite far from each other a melee will go badly anyway.

I recall that units in loose formation have a +1 armour bonus.

[Ludens]

I recall that units in loose formation have a +1 armour bonus.
Yes, I remember something similar. The -1 defense was probably to compensate for that in melee fighting.

[Just A Girl]

so you guys are saing that +3 armour units in loose formation are technically +4 armour but -1 defence?

Or does it only work if you have 0 armour bonus ?

[Martok]

so you guys are saing that +3 armour units in loose formation are technically +4 armour but -1 defence?

Or does it only work if you have 0 armour bonus ?


Never mind; you beat me to the question. ~:) That does sound really odd.... :inquisitive:

[Ludens]

so you guys are saing that +3 armour units in loose formation are technically +4 armour but -1 defence?

Or does it only work if you have 0 armour bonus ?
No, you are quite correct. The units get a +1 armour bonus because they are better able to dodge missiles (more space) in loose formation, but they also get a -1 defense penalty to remove the effect of the amour bonus in a melee. Remember that a point of armour equals a point of defense in melee.

[Just A Girl]

So technically.
Loose formation Will indeed stand up to a mele attack Just as well as close formation. becous the +1 armour bonus they receve is equal to the -1 defence they receve,

Also if there under fire the +1 Armour bonus Is better than +1 defence bonus,

And the only real penalty is the -2 morrale,
Which could lead to an earlyer rout if there in loose formation,
Where as if they were in close formation they prehaps would have stayed Just longenough to fend off the attack.
?

[Ludens]

So technically.
Loose formation Will indeed stand up to a mele attack Just as well as close formation. becous the +1 armour bonus they receve is equal to the -1 defence they receve,
You forget that soldiers in loose formation are far from each other and therefor more likely to be flanked or double-teamed.


Also if there under fire the +1 Armour bonus Is better than +1 defence bonus,
Defense does not do anything against missile fire. Only armour helps against that.