Hamas Victory in Palestine?!

[Tribesman]

I'll look that one up. "Disinformation" efforts take all shapes and sizes, but I had never read about that one.

Its quite an interesting one as it also highlights the ongoing problems with discrimination between different Jews . In that case it was "you only blame us because we are sephatic , you always treat us as second class citizens" . And also if you get a detailed account you wil find one of the first references to an act of terrorism by non other than Ariel Sharon .

I actually thought the Israeli expulsion of the Gaza settlers had been handled fairly smoothly. Most of the silly stuff was, I am given to understand, staged by what we call in the USA "outside agitators." MK's phrasing was, at the least, unfortunate.

This ones West Bank , it shows that if extremist nutters can have a seat in the Knesset then surely extremist nutters can have a seat in the PA . fairs fair in democracy after all , isn't it .

A break to Cleganes post ....Another interesting aspect of the article was, that the Hamas-mayor has no problem actually working with Israeli authorities to keep the place running, although he points out that as a "good" Hamas member he actually shouldn't talk to them or cooperate with them

Reminds me of the good reverend up in the six , he won't sit down and talk with grous linked to terrorism , he won't work with them and would never engage in politics with them ....yet he does on a local level , he does on a regional level , he does on a European level and he probably would if they ever took up their elected seats on the national level , BUT he won't on a provincial level as they are evil terrorists and he will have nothing to do with them :laugh4: :laugh4: :no:

So, just to toss out some more red meat for the discussion....

Wow serious stuff :help: I don't do serious stuff , just baseless bullshit with no foundation and plenty of bias .~;)
What would be your "ideal" result that you would like to see happen following the ascension of Hamas to power -- and why?

Ideally , the removal of the use of violence to attain political aims by all sides , and the creation of a viable two state solution , or even better single federated entity with guarantees for minority representation and rights .
Now that does mean that Hamas will have to change its constitution , most of the other Palestinian groups have already done it , why can they not also . Then again it took the Irish nearly 75 years after they got power to finally change their constitution to remove their claims to the entire territory , I hope the Palstinians don't take that long .

What do you think is likely to happen at this juncture -- and why?
Lots and lots , probably a further seperation of the three wings of Hamas to move the armed wing more to the sidelines (if they stick to their ceasefire that is) .
More moves from the moderates within Hamas to reach an accomodation , though this will also bring the hardliners out screaming and will possibly (almost definately) lead to the group fracturing , which is not good at all either in the short or the medium term , but will probably be better in the long run .
Financial hardship and the loss of the very neccasary redevelopment funding .
Big big problem . The US money is only for devlopment , so the loss of that will be more of a long term problem , the EU money is for day-to-day costs as well as development so that will have an immediate impact , the internally collected revenue is not enough to pay for bugger all , if they lose the Palestinian revenue that is collected by the Israelis (660million)as well then that means no services (health , welfare , sanitation) , no wages for the security forces . Might as well just give them all a can of petrol and matches and wait for the whole place to go up on flames .
Plus those moves will increase Anti-western /anti Isreali sentiment and give hamas a chance to play the poor victim to the populace . And of course some wonderful regime might step in with more funding as their saviour , and you can guess what sort of regimes or groups might be willing to stump up some money to increase their standing with the locals .
Reforms of the PLO/Fatah are going to be at the forefront of any near future developments ,this election kick in the balls should bring them to their senses . Hopefully they may be able to expand their umbrella organisation and bring some of the more radical groups into the fold , but only if they can combat the corruption that is endemic within the organisation .
By the next election (if things don't blow up to the extent that such things are impossible , which is a real worry) then I see hamas either having undergone major reforms returned with a minority or completely abandoned if they do not reform themselves .
While they have been very good with their charity /social welfare programs , a winning the hearts and minds campaign (especially in Gaza where the PLO has little impact at all) I don't think they are up to governing (I suspect they don't think they are up to it either) . Their religionist/exclusionist nature is not something that the majority of the population are comfortable with . their electorl victory is not so much a sign of their genuine level of support , but more of a sign that people were finally really pissed at Fatah and its incompetance .

Now , seamus , I don't know if that makes any sense or if that was what you were asking , but hey thats just some ramblings off the top of my head , if you want something more specific ask again and I will try and put some proper thought into my next reply .~:cheers:

[Viking]

Sombody PLEASE just Push the damn Button and end this Madness once and for all.

about 60 tonns of Nukes should do it. "say 30 or so 2 tonn nukes"
just stick a few nicley spaced out on every continent.
make sure there on ground level for Maximum fall out.
then detonate them,

:2thumbsup:


Seriously, that is madness. Better with all this fanatical madness than nothing. :2thumbsup:

[kataphraktoi]

Its ironic...they use Islam as a rallying point, and when someone imposes Sharia law, they get miffed?

Are they practicing Muslims or cultural Muslims?

[Vladimir]

These thugs now have to play with the big boys and aren't making any new friends. Hamas in the world of international politics is like Crazed Rabbit (or me) at a $1,000 a plate Democratic fundraising event.

Several links to good articles are on this page. Evidently these people are being left out in the cold. Those that are coming to their aid reveal their true character.

http://www.johnbatchelorshow.com/article.cfm?id=2731

[rory_20_uk]

Surely Sharia law is onle one of a panopoly of possible interpretations? Possibly they view Islamic law to be somewhat different.

~:smoking:

[Lemur]

In other words, Hamas may find that it needs more Shura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shura) than Sharia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia)

[Tribesman]

Interesting links Vlad .
What do you make of this bit.....
Officially, he attributed that firm position to Mahmoud Abbas, but it probably reflects Egypt's position, too. That position derives not only from Egypt's 1979 peace treaty with Israel, for Egypt hardly relishes the prospect of a radical, legitimate and successful Islamic government on its doorstep. After all, Hamas is the Palestinian branch and offspring of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood was also very successful in Egypt's recent elections and only blatant government intervention and fraud prevented an even bigger success. ......
playing with the big boys eh , so tell me . Why do you hate democracy ?

A united clampdown on funding for Hamas , America says it is not going to hand over the $270 million , yet tells Israel that it must hand over the $660 million .

Those that are coming to their aid reveal their true character.
Just as those that block aid are showing their true charachter .
And their double-speak shows that despite their "ideals" they know they are going to have to play ball with Hamas no matter how much public front they put out to convince the gullible voters back home that they are really playing it tough .

[Vladimir]

If Egypt continues on their dysfunctional path to a representative government the Islamic Brotherhood will come to power like Hamas. Gorbechev tried to half-democratize and it failed miserably. Once these extremist organizations become "legitimate" a whole new set of rules apply. Now if "Palestine" "declares war" against Israel they’re not resisting occupation but a nation state and the gloves come off. If they are given legitimacy (in the loosest sense of the word), the Geneva Conventions may even apply. And that would be a happy day.

[Tribesman]

Now if "Palestine" "declares war" against Israel they’re not resisting occupation but a nation state and the gloves come off.
What gloves ?????

the Geneva Conventions may even apply. And that would be a happy day.
Errrr , the genava conventions do apply , so do the Hague conventions , they are being largely ignored .~:confused:

[Nerouin]

And they didnt attack us at all. That is unless you believe they were behind 911 as some Muslims claim.
Gawain are you trying to claim that Israel as a State has never attacked the US or its oversea interests ?
Or are you trying to claim that Jewish terrorists have never attacked the United States ?
Either way both claims are completely ludicrous .

So do you support terrorism ?
Or do you only support terrorism as long as it is not carried out by people who claim to be Muslims ?

Would you like me to give you some examples of anti semitism here? Or even better in Europe?
Would you like to post some examples?
There are many sources that you can use , your government compiles a comprehensive list every year not only for incidents in your own country but for every country out there , so does the UN , the Israeli government does aswell .
So post away , they are interesting reading .
FFS..

Okay, Tribesman-- please provide documentation on:

1) The full scale program of intentional attacks on U.S. interests by Jews since the founding of the state of Israel
2) The full scale program of attacks on the United States itself by Jewish terrorists since the founding of the state of Israel
3) The Israeli government's full scale programme of support for Hamas, which somehow (?) never became an issue to the people of Israel.

Since you seem to be emphatic that it is "totally ludicrous" to think that the first two never occurred, there must have been some very large movement indeed.
Also, because you put forth that Israel's support for Hamas was quite integral and quite the big thing in Israeli history, I'd imagine you have lots of evidence on that, and that it was a hefty amount of support indeed-- though you must be more connected than millions in Israel for the issue to have never been brought up there, that the government was supporting a group responsible for hundreds of civilian deaths, millions of dollars in damage and a disruption in general civic life.

Next, please cite your reasons as to why a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians and the wounding of hundreds more is a group that should be negotiated with and treated well, and why they are a more virtuous establishment than the state of Israel-- this is the opinion I get from your posts.

Finally, please include a history showing how those opposing Israel have no share in the problems of the area and have committed no wrong nor caused any problems nor should have any stake in improving the situation, as this seems to be your viewpoint.


And the "gloves" you are asking about are the umpteen measures that Israel has never brought to bear on the situation. Israel will not wage war on the Palestinian people because they are not a nation-- having a hostile entity in one's own borders makes things complicated. However, should the Palestinians gain a nation and should the government sponsor terrorism against the state of Israel, extreme military measures would be justified. Do you think that Israel does not have the capability and knowhow needed to eliminate the entire Palestinian leadership and infrastructure? You seem to be making a great effort to make it seem as if Israel is fighting at its utmost against the Palestinian people now. That is not the case. Israel has shown restraint that no other country in the region, nor most in the world or even those in the West would show in a similar situation. If you wish for an example, see the events of Black September in Jordan in the 1970, or the events in Hama, Syria in 1982. The lack of attention given to the deaths of many thousands in such events versus the uproar when one Palestinian is killed by Israelis (and the lack of such an uproar when an Israeli child is blown up on a bus to school) shows a blatant double standard that those who are anti-Israel seem unwilling to admit exists.

Please respond to all aspects of my post-- do not pick and choose based on what information your argument will find it best to ignore, as that is not really a discussion. Thank you.

[Tribesman]

Okay, Tribesman-- please provide documentation on:

1 consult the Israeli government archives
2 consult the American government anti terrorism lists and archives
3 consult the Israeli govrrnment archives .

Also, because you put forth that Israel's support for Hamas was quite integral and quite the big thing in Israeli history, I'd imagine you have lots of evidence on that, and that it was a hefty amount of support indeed-- though you must be more connected than millions in Israel for the issue to have never been brought up there,
Try some of this weeks editorials in Ha-aretz , it is brought up in two seperate articles , oh and in that right wing rag over there Arutz Sheva , you do view the Israeli media don't you :dizzy2:

Next, please cite your reasons as to why a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians and the wounding of hundreds more is a group that should be negotiated with and treated well, and why they are a more virtuous establishment than the state of Israel-- this is the opinion I get from your posts.

You have two choices , negotiations or violence . Violence hasn't worked has it .
Errrr ....where have I called Hamas virtuous ? It appears your opinion is flawed .
Finally, please include a history showing how those opposing Israel have no share in the problems of the area and have committed no wrong nor caused any problems nor should have any stake in improving the situation, as this seems to be your viewpoint.

Once again your take on my viewpoint is wrong .

[Nerouin]

You didn't manage to fully respond, nor provide any concrete documentation. Try again.

[Tribesman]

Nerouin , look it up for yourself , you might learn something . I have told you the best primary sources ...the governments themselves (both your own and the Israeli), and two Israeli publications that mention it this week .
Hey and just from a quick look at the Israeli Institute of counter terrorism I came across two more Israeli media stories about the funding of Hamas . One says it is an invention of the CIA and its anti Jewish policies , the other says it is a sign that the Israeli government is the real enemy of the settler movement(though that second publication is linked to Kach which has a bit of a problem with the current Israeli leadership) .
And you thought it wasn't an issue is Israel :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :oops:
Perhaps you should read the Israeli papers more often .:idea2:

[Adrian II]

You didn't manage to fully respond, nor provide any concrete documentation. Try again.Man, talk about being pwned. Ha'aretz isn't good enough for you? You have bad eyesight? No Internet connection? What is it?

[Tribesman]

Adrian , be fair , Ha-aretz does have liberal leanings , thats why I threw in Arutz Sheva as well , as that certainly doesn't .
BTW Ha-aretz has a good piece comparing Likud in '77 to Hamas today .

I know peoplpe have issues with me not posting links (amongst other things~;) ) , but perhaps if they forget about googleing to get 100,000 links from blogs of varying degrees of accuracy and instead go straight to the government websites and use their built in search function then thay can get the official version . Or for the media version go to the media outlets in the countries concerned to get the same info as the locals are getting .

[solypsist]

arguing for argument's sake...battle lust...backroom beserkers

reminds me of this:

https://i1.tinypic.com/n50pb9.jpg

[Proletariat]

*ahem*

[Nerouin]

Nerouin , look it up for yourself , you might learn something . I have told you the best primary sources ...the governments themselves (both your own and the Israeli), and two Israeli publications that mention it this week .
Hey and just from a quick look at the Israeli Institute of counter terrorism I came across two more Israeli media stories about the funding of Hamas . One says it is an invention of the CIA and its anti Jewish policies , the other says it is a sign that the Israeli government is the real enemy of the settler movement(though that second publication is linked to Kach which has a bit of a problem with the current Israeli leadership) .
And you thought it wasn't an issue is Israel :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :oops:
Perhaps you should read the Israeli papers more often .:idea2:
You're the one trying to make the point here. You have pointed me toward government archives, which are just about the most extensive database one could have to sort through, and then acted as if they'll have these articles on the front page. Please provide your evidence, rather than making me search for it.

As for Haaretz-- I just checked it and don't see anything, so you'll have to post that link as well. Nor do I see anything on the site of Aurtz Sheva, in addition to which I have never used them for news before nor really heard of them much, so I don't know anything about their level of legitimacy.


Also, please go back and read my original post a few posts back-- you know, the one in which I asked you not to ignore any of my post? Please do your best again to full address it.

[Bar Kochba]

Seamus , you must understand that Israel is like any other state , it has its own agenda .if you would like an example of it using terrorism against America look at the Lavon affair . Bomb American property with the intent that someone else gets the blame so that when you attack the people who got the blame America will not object too much .
Turned out to be a hell of a ballsup which directly led to over 50,000 Jews being expelled from the country that Israel was trying to get the blame passed to . Oh look a middle eastern country threw its Jewish popualation out , thats outrageous , that just shows how evil the arabs are .
Or for another example try your countries domestic terrorist list , or perhaps look up the name I mention in the "Condolances" thread that was locked .

Slightly off topic , but did anyone come across the MKs statement today complaining about the police and army and the way it was treating some of the illegal settlers ......"it is treating them like Arabs" ....hmmmmm .....I thought everyone got equal treatment out there . :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Then again if it was treating them the same as the arabs then they would have been shot for what they were doing .:skull:


it actully said treating worse then arabs

[Nerouin]

And you are using the words of a right-wing politician to personify all Israelis. Haven't quite been to Israel, have you?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You're the one trying to make the point here. You have pointed me toward government archives, which are just about the most extensive database one could have to sort through, and then acted as if they'll have these articles on the front page. Please provide your evidence, rather than making me search for it.


This is Tribesmans typical tactic, Its happened to me more timn=es than I care to count. Instead of giving you a quote and a link he sends you off to some vast site to educate yourself. Then if you cant find it your accused of being lame or lazy or better yet pwnd.

[Tribesman]

And you are using the words of a right-wing politician to personify all Israelis.
Errrrr ......No , I am using an extremist nutters words to show that extremist nutters say crazy things .
The settler representatives are no more representative of all Israelis than Osama B is for all Muslims , or Robertson is of all Christians , or Rumsfelt is of all Americans .
Are you trying to imply that I am making blanket statements about an entire population ?

You have pointed me toward government archives, which are just about the most extensive database one could have to sort through,

Ummmm ... isn't an extensive database the best place to find things then ?
Narrow it down a bit eh
1 the Lavon affair would be the primary one, the Isreali government archives go into great detail , but you can find it in any history book concering events in the mid east . Though of course as the parties involved each blamed the other then it has never been firmly established if it was Lavon or Dayan who was behind the attacks .
2 the US government domestic terrorist list , the one you require is second on the list
3 the reason why you are having difficulty there is you are looking for the wrong thing , try the IUG , Sheik Yassim and the name of the organisation that became HAMAS in 1978 .

This is Tribesmans typical tactic, Its happened to me more timn=es than I care to count.
Gawain , would you care to dispute anything that I have written in this thread ?

it actully said treating worse then arabs
Deathtoallhumans , would you care to post the statement he made on Saturday , its even worse .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain , would you care to dispute anything that I have written in this thread ?


Did I say I did? We all know you are the great educator . How about giving him a direct quote and link. Then maybe he can honestly debate you.

As a matter of fact suprisingly I agree with much youve had to say here recently.

[Tribesman]

As a matter of fact suprisingly I agree with much youve had to say here recently.

Stop that at once Gawain .

[Nerouin]

Waiting on those links-- you seem extremely confident and clearly know exactly where they are, thus I don't see why you don't just post them already.

[Tribesman]

Waiting on those links--
You will wait a long time then as I rarely post links ,and I certainly don't when people try to misrepresent my position with comments like.....
you are using the words of a right-wing politician to personify all Israelis.

or.....Next, please cite your reasons as to why a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians and the wounding of hundreds more is a group that should be negotiated with and treated well, and why they are a more virtuous establishment than the state of Israel-- this is the opinion I get from your posts.

or....please include a history showing how those opposing Israel have no share in the problems of the area and have committed no wrong nor caused any problems nor should have any stake in improving the situation, as this seems to be your viewpoint.

If you cannot find the Isreali government accounts of events that caused a huge international incident , a huge domestic arguement and the splintering of the governing parties and the downfall of two of the most senior Israeli politicians then you havn't been looking have you .
If you cannot even find your own governments domestic terrorist lists then
you are really beyond hope , I thought you might even be familiar with a recent story due to one of the terrorists being murdered in prison in America lately .
And if at a time when hamas is a really hot topic wordwide you cannot find anything on the history and origins of the group and the activities of its founders then I really don't know what to think . All you have to do is look at the period before the discovery of the arms cache and the killing of the two Israeli soldiers .