USA-Mexico Wall Pre-pawned

[Papewaio]

731m Tunnel (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17953730-401,00.html)

So will a wall really work if these are already in use?


Federal authorities, who uncovered the 731m tunnel on Wednesday, brought in a forensic team to look for fingerprints and DNA, and to sample the air and walls, so they could determine how long the tunnel had been in use and what it was used for, Mr Unzueta said.

The tunnel has cement walls and supporting planks, is no less than 1.2m tall and wide, and runs as far as 18m underground, Mr Unzueta said. It had lighting and ventilation, and a pumping system to drain groundwater.

The US entrance had a cement ramp with a washboard pattern for better footing. "We believe this tunnel is, in fact, the largest tunnel ever found on the Southwest border," he said.


:laugh3: :laugh2: :laugh4: :laugh:

[Strike For The South]

we create an underground damn to keep them out.:idea2: I am not sure why some are against controlling immagration. In fact I dont understand it. I like my culture allot and to see these people come in here and take jobs anr ruin my culture sickens me. Mexicans play a huge role in Texan culture its one of those things that makes Texas distinct but illegals I cant stand. Some people say we are bigots in our subconcinse but I dont see it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The gov't has the equipment that can detect these tunnels underground. But Bush just doesn't have the will to do something to protect the USA.

Crazed Rabbit

[Watchman]

Christ. Do you guys sound like the stereotypical "this is mine, that is yours, trespass on mine and you'll get yours" insularist well-off First Worlders or what ?

Not that most of us Euros were any better, but then I dislike that too.

[BDC]

Doesn't the entire economy of the south rely on illegal workers one way or another?

Hence the the US government's reluctance to kick them all back out, as they'd have to be immediately invited back in legitimately, which would mean paying them more.

[Watchman]

It's about the same in Spain AFAIK. Which shouldn't be surprising. Back in the day people moved from the countryside into the squalor of the cities in the hopes of bettering their lives, or went overseas to America, or whatever. Same old thing.

And, typically, those who came before and had already gotten comfortably established always resented and belittled the newcomers. Ecce homo.

[doc_bean]

Christ. Do you guys sound like the stereotypical "this is mine, that is yours, trespass on mine and you'll get yours" insularist well-off First Worlders or what ?

Not that most of us Euros were any better, but then I dislike that too.

We should export wealth, not import poverty.

[Watchman]

Doesn't it count as "exporting wealth" when all those illegals mail or bring their meager salaries back home ?

[Divinus Arma]

Those of you who are unaffected by the mexican-american illegal immigration really have no idea what the hell is going on. I have lived in Southern California for most of my life and I can give you a picture of what has changed.

First of all, let me make it clear that I empathize with these folks. I would do the same damn thing if I were in theri predicament. Opportunities DO exist because internal enforcement is extremely lax and the government does virtually nothing to employers who hire illegal immigrants. So it is a double standard: if you can make it, you are safe.


The problem is primarily economic rather than cultural. Let me give you the example I share with everyone:
A friend of mine is a barber and makes about 3,000-4,000 US$ per month. She reports her earnings to the government and pays federal and state taxes on her earnings. In her barbershop is an illegal immigrant who cuts hair without a license. She too makes $3,000-$4,000 per month. Only she does not pay taxes on her earnings. Here is the kicker: The illegal immigrant has children in the United States, which makes them U.S. Citizens. U.S. Citizens are entitled to welfare and food stamps when the family income is below a certain amount. By claiming that she earns less than she does, the illegal immigrant is able to obtain nearly $1,200 a month in welfare and several hundred dollars in food stamps. Do you see the problem?

Additionally, law prevents emergency rooms from turning away patients. So where do illegal immigrants go for free health care? Our emergency roooms. The private health care system takes a huge hit because of this and the costs of medical expenses are increased for everyone else.

Illegal immigrants subvert the system at every turn. They purchase old cars from each other because a 1st time used car vehicle registration does not require proof of liability insure, even though they are required by law to caryy the insurance. So they sell these junk cars to each annually in order to avoid paying insurance premiums. And when they cause an accident, they have no way to compensate the victim for property damage, injury, or death.

Employers are guilty of facilitating this. I used to work in construction when I was 18, doing plaster for new residential construction. At that time, the industry was already split about 50-50 proportion of Mexicans vs everyone else. Now, nearly all construction jobs are held by mexicans, a large portion of them illegal. The job problem is much worse than this. Illegal immigrants initially were hired for only agriculture in California, where unscrupulous farming managers could pay them less than minimum wage. Now illegal immigrants have expanded into skilled and semi-skilled labor taking jobs in heavy equipment operation, retailing, janitorial services, plumbing, as electricians, and more. Because employers pay less to illegal immigranmts, the wage base for legitimate workers is pushed down even further, consequently increasing the disparity between the wealthy and the poor while decreasing the middle class.

As a final insult, illegal immigrimants tend to have large families in part to increase their monthly income from welfare and because of the culture. These children are born into poverty in communities with other illegal immigrants. These kids in poverty naturally go into crime, join gangs, and have contempt for the middle class that have earned their place in society. These young kids also have children at a very young age. Anywhere in Southern California, you will see teenage mexican girls pushing their strollers to the bus stop. What will happen to these children? This dirt birth baby boom also changes the face of the local population with more residents of California mexican than any other race. No big deal, except they dont have American values; instead they refuse to learn our language, refuse to adopt our social values of mutual respect, and demand that we assimilate to their culture.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

everything I've heard about these tunnels suggest that they are primarily used for trafficking illegal goods.

Otherwise what wetback wouldn't use them?

:idea2:


mmmmmmmmmmmmm tunnel or dying in the desert? tough choice

[master of the puppets]

...well that sucks lots, cursed immigrants, i have had no personal issues with them but it seems that they are dragging america down.

[KukriKhan]

...well that sucks lots, cursed immigrants, i have had no personal issues with them but it seems that they are dragging america down.

Heh. People have been saying that here since the 1500's, and before. :)

[master of the puppets]

but lets hope we don't get to extreme with this, cause you probably know how da KKK sprung up.

[Slyspy]

As Divinus has already said, it is lax employment controls in the border states which encourage illegal immigration. Set your own house in order first. Start prosecuting those who use illegal labour etc etc. If you remove the jobs, you remove the reason for all those illegals. Either that or have an open border. Your choice.

[Xiahou]

Very well laid out DA. :bow:

I agree that the government should come down on companies that knowingly hire illegals like a ton of bricks. However, it is also unacceptable that our government does so little to police such a porous border. Our southern border almost freely allows illegal immigrants, drug traffickers, militant gangs and potentially even terrorists to cross into our country. I'd also think that we should be doing something punitive to Mexico for dumping their problems on us in such a manner.

[Beirut]

Illegal immigration into the US is the corporeal equivalent to US affluence being exercised around the world.

Invasive, sometimes disruptive, and often causing annoyance and concern in the natives. Fair's fair, though. Happens to us as well.

You (we) cannot take center stage, constantly declaring our greatness and wealth of mind, body and bank account, then throw our money around buying up the best bits of everywhere else and not expect the other guy to put his eyes on our pie.

~:smoking: "Hey, Joe Foreigner, I'm buying up that sweet oceanfront property you've played on for three generations and putting up a house for me and the missus and some private condos to rent, so if you don't mind keeping your kids away...

Oh and stay away from where I live back home, would you? Thanks."

[Vladimir]

Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats want more votes. Very little if anything will change.

[Major Robert Dump]

I'm all for legal immigration, its good for the economy and means more hot Peruvian chicas for me to date.

But as someone who has paid 5% of his income to social security and medicaid all his working life on top of federal and state taxes, you can probably see how I'm not amused at someone who entered the country ILLEGALLY, sapping the welfare system that is intended for the citizens who are paying for it, and then encouraging their friends and family to do it as well. We aren't talking about a couple hundred illegal immigrants, we are talking about millions upon millions.

[Xiahou]

But as someone who has paid 5% of his income to social security and medicaid all his working life on top of federal and state taxesMore like 15% by my math- but that only reinforces your point.

[Major Robert Dump]

You can have cheap labor with LEGAL immigration. The freaking minimum wage in the US hasn't changed for 10 years. The problem with legal immigration is that its going to bring illegals as well.

A lot of the blame does in fact lie with businesses who want cheap labor and the way they pander to immigrants. McDonalds I know for a fact takes full advantage of this by working immigrants at two seperate stores to total more than 40 hours a week, then deosn't pay them a cent of overtime because the work is being done at two different stores, and a lot of immigrants don't realize they might normally be entitled to overtime were they not splitting their time between stores, hell, a lot fo them don't even know what overtime pay is. Wal-Mart also actively sends store managers to recruit at certain types of ethnic events, like the ones held on campuses and in community centers, and I can assure you this has nothing to do with diversity and everything to do with cheap, long term labor.

This is the price we pay for cheap goods and convenience, we aren't blameless, thats sure.

[Major Robert Dump]

More like 15% by my math- but that only reinforces your point.

Yeah, to be honest I don't follow it too closely because its depressing.

I typically pay @30% of my gross income to total taxes, not including sales taxes and taxes on accounts/stocks. I also try to overpay as much as possible so I always get a fat refund, but when I sit down each february and figure it all out, I always come back to the 30% figure. Speaking of taxes.....

[Divinus Arma]

Illegal immigration into the US is the corporeal equivalent to US affluence being exercised around the world.

Invasive, sometimes disruptive, and often causing annoyance and concern in the natives. Fair's fair, though. Happens to us as well.

My friend U.S. affluence, as you put it, is a force for good in the world, not a force for evil. But the size of our economic cajones really has nothing to do with the issue you just laid out.

Global anti-Americanism is in part due to overzealous marketing efforts whereby corporations attempt to cut costs by engaging in a globally standardized marketing campaign without regard to cultural differences. The financial benefit of a global campaign over a multi-domestic campaign is huge and there is good reason for engaging in this type of marketing when possible. The problem arises when targeted segments of a population are culturally different from untargeted segments. The untargeted segments are resentful of the marketing campaing within their country and see it as intrusive Americanism, even though the marketing has been localized to meet the needs of the foriegn domestic market.

In other words, America sells itself to people who want America. The rest of the people just happen to be exposed to the sales effort and are turned off by it.


You (we) cannot take center stage, constantly declaring our greatness and wealth of mind, body and bank account, then throw our money around buying up the best bits of everywhere else and not expect the other guy to put his eyes on our pie.

As I said, I WOULD DO THE SAME THING IF I WERE THEM. Just because they demand entrance to our country does not meet we have an obligation to allow them. We have the resources to absorb them, BUT the consequence would be a further disparity between the wealthy and the poor, a lack of American global competitiveness, a reduction in the American economy, and an erosion of traditional American values that some of care to keep (hence having our own nation). And consider, if we allow entrance of the millions of illegal mexican immigrants, why don't we absorb ALL of the world's poor?

The solution is not to keep out the immigrants, the solution is to take away their reason for coming here. Only by eliminating the opportunities here while increasing the proportion of skilled legal immigrant workers can we meet this challenge with compassion to immigrants and fairness to the American people.

Ours IS a history of immigration, but one of LEGAL immigration. "Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free". We have a process for this. To allow illegal entrance of the mexican masses is to deny entry to all those legitimately needy who go through the valid process to become U.S. Citizens. And in going through the legal process, they assimilate to our language, culture, values and become AMERICANS.

[Beirut]

My friend U.S. affluence, as you put it, is a force for good in the world, not a force for evil.

It is both.


And in going through the legal process, they assimilate to our language, culture, values and become AMERICANS.

If only that were true here as well as there.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Nuke the border.

[Divinus Arma]

It is both.

It can be both. Or either. According to empirical data, international U.S. spending is divided into the following proportions:


Evil Spending: 12.3% of GNP invested internationally

Good Spending: 67.8% of GNP invested internationally

Butternut Squash: 19.9% of GNP invested internationally





If only that were true here as well as there.

Well, the problem is primarily that Canadians don't really have a distinct culture aside from Quebec, which is kind of like an angry mini-me of France. Canadians are basically just Americans, but colder and in denial. I mean, what country in the world is as similar to U.S. culture as Canada? You guys are like our wimpy twin.:2thumbsup: Don't get me wrong, I like Canada. But you should just accept that your illusory independance is at an end. You are already pretty much our protectorate if you think about it. Which is cool with me. I like maple syrup. And Molson ain't half bad. And remember the "Call of the Wild"? That was a good book about dogs.

[Ironside]

I typically pay @30% of my gross income to total taxes, not including sales taxes and taxes on accounts/stocks. I also try to overpay as much as possible so I always get a fat refund, but when I sit down each february and figure it all out, I always come back to the 30% figure. Speaking of taxes.....

~:confused:

That's roughly the same amount of taxes as we pay in Sweden (without the VAT), unless I'm missing something. :inquisitive:

[Samurai Waki]

They don't bother me, I don't bother them. Thats about the sum of it all. However, when I hear about gangs and street violence brought about by illegal immigrants I get annoyed.

[Xiahou]

They don't bother me, I don't bother them. Thats about the sum of it all. However, when I hear about gangs and street violence brought about by illegal immigrants I get annoyed.
Why do you get annoyed? Do you think it doesnt happen? It's well documented that militant gang members are crossing our border from Mexico.

[Major Robert Dump]

~:confused:

That's roughly the same amount of taxes as we pay in Sweden (without the VAT), unless I'm missing something. :inquisitive:


You're not missing anything.

It's bad enough to have American citizens ride the welfare gravy train all their life, all the while not paying taxes on their income because they don't have income. I hate it, a lot. But a lot of people need the help, their need is legitimate, so we take the good with the bad, because they are our fellow countrymen.

And all the elderly are entitled to SS, even if they never paid into it by not working, or being a stay at home parent etc.

Then along comes some folk who arent paying taxes, don't speak the same language and can't even bother with gaining citizenship, sucking on the proverbial tit having not contributed a dime to it. The least they could do is gain citizenship and pay some damn taxes, because when the welfare and social security starts to run dry we're gonna have to pay more taxes to keep our poor and our old from freezing to death, and a little help from the illegal freeloaders would be nice.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask for people to just do it legally, join the team and do their part. And if they aren't willing then maybe some tough love will emphasize the point.

[Ser Clegane]

After receiving my first pay-cheque of the year and having to realize that ~60% of the raise I received had been eaten up by taxes and social security, I think I better refrain from joining this track of the discussion ... or I might end up having to warn myself ... :furious3:

[Beirut]

Well, the problem is primarily that Canadians don't really have a distinct culture aside from Quebec, which is kind of like an angry mini-me of France. Canadians are basically just Americans, but colder and in denial. I mean, what country in the world is as similar to U.S. culture as Canada? You guys are like our wimpy twin.:2thumbsup: Don't get me wrong, I like Canada. But you should just accept that your illusory independance is at an end. You are already pretty much our protectorate if you think about it. Which is cool with me. I like maple syrup. And Molson ain't half bad. And remember the "Call of the Wild"? That was a good book about dogs.

Speaking of illusions... ~;p

[BDC]

Can I just ask something here?

Is the issue in the south that people come, and effectively get all the benefits of being a US Citizen without the responsibilities?

Surely just enforcing the law would do fine, none of this building walls rubbish. Put all the wall-making money into hiring more police and deporting anyone who has got in illegally.

Of course you need this labour. So anyone who comes in legally gets the benefits that you'd expect as a US citizen. But it all rests on actual enforcement.

[ajaxfetish]

Most of the illegals I knew when I lived in southern California were actively trying to get citizenship. I haven't studied the immigration process, but the anecdotal evidence I heard says it's not as easy to immigrate legally as we sometimes make it sound.

Ajax

[Redleg]

Can I just ask something here?

Sure



Is the issue in the south that people come, and effectively get all the benefits of being a US Citizen without the responsibilities?


Illegal immigrants do not get the benefits of being a citizen unless, and this is key, they have what is termed the anchor baby. Any child regardless of the immigrantion status of thier parents, born on United States soil is entitled to citizenship.

Once an illegal has a child that is a citizen - that child is entitled to all the benefits of being a citizen. Since the illegal parents now must take care of a legal citizen of the nation, they are not deported.

Now you can figure out the rest of the situation. Its bad in some parts of the nation where the illegal immirgant parents no longer work, but there are a lot of illegal immigrants that work under false social security numbers - they in essence also pay their part of the taxes and social security, but its not recorded, because they are illegal immigrants and do not file income taxe returns.



Surely just enforcing the law would do fine, none of this building walls rubbish. Put all the wall-making money into hiring more police and deporting anyone who has got in illegally.

Many state police will not ask immigrantion status. Several lobby groups have effectively put the scare of civil lawsuits on officer, departments, cities, and yes even states about police can not ask about immigrantion status.

So the current most effective means is the border patrol which has that primary responsiblity. All this talk of walls and fences as far as I am concerned - having lived in New Mexico and Texas - the border is too long, through to rough of terrian to adequately police the border to prevent crossings at all the places it is possible. A fence is not effective if it is not patroled and overwatched along its entir length.

All they can effectively do in my opinion is track the most logical and most used crossing areas. Fences in these locations might have some effect in keeping the situation under some control - however by doing so - it will shift the migrantion routes into possible more dangerous terrian. There is a large southwestern desert between much of Mexico and the United States.



Of course you need this labour. So anyone who comes in legally gets the benefits that you'd expect as a US citizen. But it all rests on actual enforcement.

Hince the problem - with as big of a pourous border that the United States has - both along the land borders and the coastal borders. It really is not that hard to get into the United States illegally. Some ways just cost more in cash then others.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Surely just enforcing the law would do fine, none of this building walls rubbish. Put all the wall-making money into hiring more police and deporting anyone who has got in illegally.

The problem is that, besides the huge border, when Border agents catch people crossing they will, in a lot of cases, just let them into the USA with a promise to appear at court on a certain date-which most never do.

The system needs to be fixed. We need to deport people we cathc, not let them in, and be on the lookout for those in the USA. A wall would help-but it still needs to be patrolled.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ironside]

You're not missing anything.

It's bad enough to have American citizens ride the welfare gravy train all their life, all the while not paying taxes on their income because they don't have income. I hate it, a lot. But a lot of people need the help, their need is legitimate, so we take the good with the bad, because they are our fellow countrymen.

And all the elderly are entitled to SS, even if they never paid into it by not working, or being a stay at home parent etc.

Then along comes some folk who arent paying taxes, don't speak the same language and can't even bother with gaining citizenship, sucking on the proverbial tit having not contributed a dime to it. The least they could do is gain citizenship and pay some damn taxes, because when the welfare and social security starts to run dry we're gonna have to pay more taxes to keep our poor and our old from freezing to death, and a little help from the illegal freeloaders would be nice.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask for people to just do it legally, join the team and do their part. And if they aren't willing then maybe some tough love will emphasize the point.

I'm agreeing with you, SS or other social services cannot work properly with people leeching on the system.
I was just surpriced with your high taxes, although the VAT here is a big cash-cow for the state (bigger than the income taxes IIRC). We do pay for a little bit more stuff here in Sweden you know.

[Xiahou]

The problem is that, besides the huge border, when Border agents catch people crossing they will, in a lot of cases, just let them into the USA with a promise to appear at court on a certain date-which most never do.

The system needs to be fixed. We need to deport people we cathc, not let them in, and be on the lookout for those in the USA. A wall would help-but it still needs to be patrolled.

Crazed Rabbit
The 'catch and release' program definitely needs to stop and local law enforcement should stop selectively enforcing laws when it comes to illegal immigration.

As to the wall, I dont think a single wall running the length of the border would be the way to go- even if it was feasible. I'd rather see walls in strategic crossings, coupled with increased border patrols. I also think UAVs would be an excellent way to patrol the borders and cut down on man power demands for the border patrol.

[AntiochusIII]

Most of the illegals I knew when I lived in southern California were actively trying to get citizenship. I haven't studied the immigration process, but the anecdotal evidence I heard says it's not as easy to immigrate legally as we sometimes make it sound.

AjaxPersonal experience says it is not easy to immigrate legally from some places far away, even if your country is stable and rather pro-Western, because of all the quotas and "competitions" to get into America.

For me, it took almost a decade since my father applied when I was five before we were granted the "Green Card." And the country I moved from, Thailand, was by all means rather favored compare to most others. Countries like India and China have stories of people waiting practically forever to immigrate to the United States.

However, that is not an issue -- after all, it is perfectly in America's right to decide who gets in and who's not -- though the illegal immigration is an issue here in the Southwest; crime, poverty, education, burden to the state, and all that. LA has it worst, while Vegas here doesn't have that much problem. We're the fastest-growing city around the block and all immigrants are welcomed to feed a rapidly expanding tourist economy...for now.

This makes me think of the latest Boondocks episode: "You're fired...not the illegal Mexicans." :laugh4:

[Papewaio]

I typically pay @30% of my gross income to total taxes, not including sales taxes and taxes on accounts/stocks. I also try to overpay as much as possible so I always get a fat refund, but when I sit down each february and figure it all out, I always come back to the 30% figure. Speaking of taxes.....

I pay about 33% and 5% of that will disappear when I pay off my University contribution. Mind you my overtime hits about 47% :dizzy2: but that all goes straight into savings.

====

As for the anchor babies, make it that they have to have at least one legal responsible adult citizen to gain automatic citzenship.

If not make that one of the parents has to do government work... rubbish collection, teaching spanish, join the military. Have them go to citzenship classes...

[Major Robert Dump]

There is also a factor of fear, and one of criminal records.

Back somewhere in the thread someone posted that all the illegals he knew were trying to get citizenship, whereas all the illegals I KNOW are not.

I frequently worked with many immigrants here on work visas, they had no plans of staying in the states and they payed much fewer taxes despite still being eligible for medicaid and food stamps. While I don't care too much for that, at least they got visas. In fact I dated a few of them (females!) and would quite frequently visit thier homes, in which many other immigrants lived as well.

Usually they were big homes and apartments, not the stereotypical 20 ppl in a 1 bedroom apartment, although that happens as well. But from these visits I learned a few things:

-the older immigrants are altogether unwilling to learn English
-many of the illegals otherwise eligible for citizenship don't want to make the effort because a husband/wife/child has a criminal record that would prevent said person from legally residing in the country, and they dont want to split up the family or risk being noticed
-a lot of them truly do not want to stay here and were her to make money, although this didnt prevent them from having babies and getting free aid

Can't speak for immigrants, my experiences are just that, and most of the latinos I have been around have been non-mexicans, primarily Peruvian, Columbian and Bolivian.

And one other business i forgot to mention that WANTS migrant workers is the phone card and cell phone industry, as consumers of course.