Mounting and Dismounting............ [Archive]

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Cesare diBorja

01-30-2006, 03:45

I would think it possible in the reconstruction of the RTW engine for mounted troops(early dragoon types-crossbowmen and archers) to be able to mount or dismount in battle. The horses, as in history, could be left with a linkman(usually one in ten persons) while the rest fight as infantry. The logic is the same as the torchbearer.

diBorgia

Sir Toma of Spain

01-30-2006, 07:01

I agree. I loved it in MTW1 how when i attack a castle with the spanish and suddenly my 200 spanish jinets turn into 200 feudal sergeants to storm through the walls and get shot down by the towers (well perhaps not the last one). It would also be historical as i'm sure some of our history proffesors in residence (no offence meant:2thumbsup: ) wil tell you

Lochar

01-30-2006, 07:22

I would like to see this too, but also it makes me think of losing a mount during a battle and still being able to fight, treating the horse and rider as 2 seperate entities.

sapi

01-30-2006, 07:51

I would like to see this too, but also it makes me think of losing a mount during a battle and still being able to fight, treating the horse and rider as 2 seperate entities.
Agreed, it sounds like a great idea.

Bob the Insane

01-30-2006, 12:32

I doubt this would occur as it would require a concept change for how mounts are handled in the game. As this is essentailly a tweaked version of the RTW engine I would very much doubt this havs changed. But reintroducing the MTW style chose the mounted or unmounted version of a unit before the battle would be good and should be perfectly possible...

zakalwe

01-30-2006, 16:11

It would be hella good for depicting Scottish forces, who would do this a fair amount. I think though that they would have to do it before or after the battle, but i'd love to see it during.

The most important uses of this that i can see in MTW2 are

1) that you can have a very high movement stack that once it gets into battle can dismount half its force and keep the rest mounted. this would make for an extremely effective raiding or border defence force

2) in sieges both defending or attacking you can dismount those frequently useless horse troops and put them on the walls. This would be particularly useful when you are attacked with only a governor and several town watch. A dismounted governor and his body guard on the walls would be very useful

eta - hell, thinking about it, it would be much much more useful having this option in the MTW2 engine than in the MTW one :)

Voigtkampf

01-30-2006, 17:41

I have made the same enquiries to CA back in the day when Rome was being developed; they didn’t make it possible then and they will not make it possible now, I’m afraid, but it could have been an interesting addition.

Rodion Romanovich

01-30-2006, 18:27

I really hope they put mount/dismount during deployment phase in MTW2. In the ancient period it's perhaps slightly more tolerable to skip it, but in the Medieval period?!! The entire Hundred years war and many parts of the English-Scottish wars depended a lot on dismounting knights when appropriate... Proper handling of them in battle - separating horse and rider - might be difficult though, but would be sweet if it worked.

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-30-2006, 22:41

voigtkampf - do you know why not? :dizzy2:

econ21

01-30-2006, 22:59

I would not miss the ability to mount or dismount during the battle - historically not many cavalry did that with the kind of ease that a human player would do so in TW if given a chance.

However, I can't see there being much of a technical computing problem with mounting or dismounting before battle, MTW style, even with the RTW engine. Just swap one unit card for another. Having the ability to do so would greatly enhance the historical accuracy.

Personally, I'd like to see foot knights have more of an impact in M2TW than they did in MTW, although I agree they should not be recruitable (and so we need the ability to dismount them).

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

01-31-2006, 02:51

In the ancient world this was less of an issue but dismounted kinghts are an absolute must.

Gaiseric

01-31-2006, 03:35

Dismounting units would have made a great addition to the Horde units of BI. Maybe CA will use them for the Mongol Hoards.

Knights should also be able to dissmont to become men-at-arms in MTW2. (maybe an option to choose before battle/siege) I would like to see knights in MTW2 as a mobile and versatile force but they should be expensive to recruit and pay.

In order to prevent the end game from becoming a massive calvary slaughterfest, maybe knight recruitment should be based on province size and income. Or maybe only one unit of knights allowed per provice per game to represent the Kings granting of lands to the nobility.

Sir Toma of Spain

01-31-2006, 06:56

In order to prevent the end game from becoming a massive calvary slaughterfest, maybe knight recruitment should be based on province size and income. Or maybe only one unit of knights allowed per provice per game to represent the Kings granting of lands to the nobility.

I love the idea!:flowers:

Well maybe not that much, but it would be a good way to stop the uber-powerful all cavalry armies which everyone complains about. It should also mean that you would protect your knights knowing that you didn't have an unlimited supply of them ready as reinforcements

Gaiseric

02-01-2006, 01:08

I love the idea!

Well maybe not that much, but it would be a good way to stop the uber-powerful all cavalry armies which everyone complains about. It should also mean that you would protect your knights knowing that you didn't have an unlimited supply of them ready as reinforcements

Differant provinces would be able to recruit differant types of knights. The type and size of knights could depend on the buildings/improvements in the province. As you improve the income of the province the knighs size will increase.

This would be really cool because I always enjoy it in RTW when my leaders unit gains a few men from the increase in valor and command.

Voigtkampf

02-02-2006, 09:50

voigtkampf - do you know why not? :dizzy2:

Due to gameplay difficulties of separating warrior and horse, the resulting highly probable mess and, surely not the least, engine and coding problems, the mere technical difficulties of making that work properly.

On the bright side, it is a fairly safe bet to expect they will re-introduce the ability of some units to dismount before battle, but only some of them.

Cesare diBorja

02-05-2006, 00:16

aw89

02-05-2006, 02:36

Knights should also be able to dissmont to become men-at-arms in MTW2.

Dismounted knights were certainly better than men-at-arms, thats the kind of simplification we want to avoid here. (Read: we want CA not to know of since they might decide it is a good idea)

sapi

02-05-2006, 03:43

Dismounted knights were certainly better than men-at-arms, thats the kind of simplification we want to avoid here. (Read: we want CA not to know of since they might decide it is a good idea)
lol, that's cynical but true

Mooks

02-05-2006, 07:36

Some knights actually fought as footmen, once every man in europe knew that a spear COULD actually kill a horse, the mounted horsemen turned out to be to much of a bother.

Voigtkampf

02-05-2006, 15:03

it would not be too difficult if it were to handle mounted cavalry and make them dismount much as like artillery units being enabled to doff their artillery duties to fight as infantry or seige units to doff a siege engine like a tower. Use the same sort of script to make them more flexible. We are not dealing with an incapable engine here. Just one that has been programmed in a limited fashion.

diBorgia

One unit take/dropping a siege ram is much different then hundred men dismounting/mounting again.

When knights dismount, are the horses still the part of the same unit? If not, can you control them per se? Can horses die, be chased away, trapped? What if you have more knights then horses, or the other way around? Do all mounted knights become one unit? All dismounted knights one unit? How often can they mount/dismount? How would that come up for calculating the moral, discipline and other bonuses and penalties that would have to be continuously re-evaluated as long as warriors mount and dismount?

And while we are at it, why not introduce the realistic fact that, say, arrows kill horses of a cavalry unit, but the riders stay alive and continue to fight? It would be a reasonable to introduce that feature as well.

IMDHO, too much work over something that will only make gameplay more difficult.

Cesare diBorja

02-05-2006, 16:27

Mouzafphaerre

02-06-2006, 10:23

.
Aye! I hope dismounting comes back! :yes:
.

Voigtkampf

02-07-2006, 19:47

They have already mentioned that horses and men can survive each other. Something to the fact that on the battlefield there will be empty saddles. Did you not read this for yourself?

Nope, do you have a link?

diBorgia

p.s. artillery is similar to mounting, more than you think from a programming standpoint. Not to mention CA is totally revamping the engine. You don't know what is going to happen yet. Keep it optimistic.

I will try to stay optimistic, but frankly, I don't expect that much of revamping.

Besides, I was optimistic about Rome... :sweatdrop: Now I have reinstalled MTW... :thumbsup:

Ludens

02-09-2006, 15:46

When knights dismount, are the horses still the part of the same unit? If not, can you control them per se? Can horses die, be chased away, trapped? What if you have more knights then horses, or the other way around? Do all mounted knights become one unit? All dismounted knights one unit? How often can they mount/dismount? How would that come up for calculating the moral, discipline and other bonuses and penalties that would have to be continuously re-evaluated as long as warriors mount and dismount?

And while we are at it, why not introduce the realistic fact that, say, arrows kill horses of a cavalry unit, but the riders stay alive and continue to fight? It would be a reasonable to introduce that feature as well.

IMDHO, too much work over something that will only make gameplay more difficult.
I don't think dismounting during battle will be possible, though dismouting before will hopefully be an option.

Excellent arguments, Lord voigtkampf. ~;)

Kraxis

02-09-2006, 17:07

I would like to hear about this 'seperate man and horse' issue.

Gealai

02-09-2006, 18:11

Seconded --> It would be a incredible addition, giving you a far far greater tactical flexibility...

Kraxis

02-09-2006, 18:45

Seconded --> It would be a incredible addition, giving you a far far greater tactical flexibility...
Yeah... I guess I would turn into a dragoon commander, rushing my 'mounted infantry' around to quickly plug gaps and the like.

Gealai

02-09-2006, 18:58

So true, so true; One could finally do what we could just read about...

Then the armies of the regnum Francorurn did meet the Vikings in battle, moreover, able commanders such as King Arnulf showed great flexibility in tactics. In 891, Arnulf pursued a band of Vikings who took refuge in a hastily fortified camp on the river Dyle. The camp was protected by swampy ground, and the terrain was thoroughly unsuited for the deployment of men on horseback.59 The author of the Annals of Fulda describes the conditions:

The king delayed because he did not want to risk his strong army. On the other side of the river that surrounded the enemy camp was a swamp that did not give his horsemen a chance to attack. Thus he wandered here and there with his eyes, his thoughts and in seeking counsel. This counsel was necessary because the Franks were not accustomed to advance slowly into battle step by step (pedetemptim).60

A quite familiar problem for MTW players whe having to attack castles...

Arnulf feared that the morale of his men was not up to slogging through the muck and mire slowly, step by step, under a hail of enemy missiles. Thus he told his staff that he would dismount, carry the banner, and lead his men on foot through the swamp. Arnulf's men did dismount, but his advisors impressed upon him the need for a mounted reserve so that "no warrior might fear an ambush by the enemy from behind"; thus, the king did not lead the attack, which was, nevertheless, successful.61

And there are still guys talking about all dumb-all impulsive-"just charge"-knights with always no-clue commanders :no:

See: http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/bachrach3.htm

Gealai

Gealai

02-09-2006, 19:05

One may add...

One of the earliest extant efforts to use a selection of chapters from Vegetius's handbook for practical purposes was made by Rabanus Maurus, who during the mid-ninth century made an epitome of the De re militari and in his preface to King Lothair II indicated that he included only those things that were of importance "in modern times."64 Rabanus chose to include in this epitome the greater part of Vegetius's account dealing with the training of cavalry recruits (tyrones) to mount and dismount. Rabanus also chose to comment on this chapter when he wrote:

Wooden horses are placed during the winter under a roof and in summer in a field. The recruits at first try to mount unarmed, then they mount carrying shields and swords, and finally with very large pole weapons. And this practice was so thorough that they were forced to learn how to jump on and off their horses not only from the right but from the left and from the rear and in addition they learned to jump on and off their horses even with an unsheathed sword.65

Very nice indeed...

Rabanus then adds to Vegetius's text: "Indeed, the exercise of jumping [on and off one's horse] has flourished greatly among the Frankish people."66 He also quotes "a commonly known proverb familiar to us which says `a horseman can be made in youth [in pube] but scarcely or never at all at an older age.67

This type of training, as we have seen, stood the troops of King Arnulf well in battle against the Vikings on the Dyle. Indeed, Regino of Prum, in commenting on the Frankish tactics at the Dyle, writes: "The angry king ordered his army to dismount and to do battle with the enemy on foot. This order having been given, the men jumped from their horses rapidly [citius] . . . and charged. . . ."68

It really seems that the Frankish knights understood in theory and most times also in practice what dismounting was worth...

Gealai

Voigtkampf

02-10-2006, 09:01

I don't think dismounting during battle will be possible, though dismouting before will hopefully be an option.

Excellent arguments, Lord voigtkampf. ~;)

Thank you, Lord Ludens. :bow:

So, no link to the article where they mention "horses and men surviving each other"? I didn't see that anywhere, and would like to verify it. :book: