We Stand on Guard for Thee...Unless Bad Guys Come, in Which Case We Flee. [Archive]

Crazed Rabbit

01-31-2006, 23:01

Funny story from near where I used to live.
Seems two murderers wanted in Cali were fleeing to the Canadian border, hotly pursued by police. Almost got there too.

https://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1538/bilde7ti.jpg

That maroon car is the one the suspects were in. That 5 foot stone post to the right of the white SUV is the border marker. US agents wouldn't have been able to continue the chase past the border. Luckily, the SUV broadsided them in the nick of time.
Local US Paper. (http://news.bellinghamherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/NEWS09/601250342)

And what did the Canadian border guards do when informed of the rapidly approaching fugitives? They fled. Walked off. Hard to blame them, of course, when they're unarmed.

From the Canuck's mouth:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/01/25/1410687-cp.html

Some interesting quotes:

A spokeswoman for the Canada Border Services Agency said the guards have the legal right to refuse to work if they believe they are in imminent danger. Guards who leave their posts are replaced by supervisors.
Interesting...what they heck are they good for then? Guarding against those who are harmless?

As it stands, border guards are supposed to allow anyone suspected of being armed and dangerous into Canada and then call police.

"We are supposed to withdraw because we're not armed," said Pellerin-Fowlie. "In many locations, that simply means the individual has gained entry because the response times are too long, hours, if at all."
Dang. Not exactly an effective strategem for actual border defense, now is it?

And a bit from Mark Steyn (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007884):

Like much of the European Union, we're so heavily invested in the idea that we've found a kinder, gentler way we can scarcely bear to contemplate the reality. At the Washington state/British Columbia border last week, two guys on the lam were hightailing it through Blaine heading for the 49th parallel with the cops in hot pursuit. Alerted to what was coming their way, Canada's (unarmed) border guards walked off the job. For a country whose national anthem lyrics are mostly endless reprises of the line "we stand on guard for thee," we could at least stand on guard. A few years back, I was chatting with a border guard at the Derby Line, Vt./Rock Island, Quebec, crossing. A beat-up sedan came hurtling northward and we jumped out of the way. She sounded a klaxon. By then the driver was halfway up the Trans-Quebecoise autoroute and, if he ever heard her stern warning, he declined to brake and reverse back to the post to show his papers. "Oh, well," she said to me, "it's probably nothing."

Crazed Rabbit

Goofball

01-31-2006, 23:13

Proletariat

01-31-2006, 23:19

If given the choice between engaging in avoidable armed conflict that will most likely result in loss of life but offer no real benefit, versus walking away from a situation and letting it diffuse to the point where it might be resolved without anybody ending up dead, Americans tend to choose the former, while Canadians prefer the latter.

Right, because the Canadian guards knew a guy desperate enough to flee the police in a high speed, cross-border chase, must just be a harmless mischief maker and catching him would've had 'no real benefit.'

:2thumbsup:

Beirut

01-31-2006, 23:19

I like the idea that our border guards are unarmed.

I also like the idea of an RCMP officer sitting in a cruiser behind every border crossing as well.

Xiahou

01-31-2006, 23:20

What's the point of having a guard if they aren't going to guard anything?

Apparently they're willing to stop any law-abiding citizens at the border no problem- BUT, if someone dangerous wants to cross... well screw that- they're outta there. ~D

Honestly though, it's tough to blame them when their government leaves them to enforce border security armed with little more than harsh language and dirty looks. I understand the new Canadian PM is looking to fix that though...

Krypta

01-31-2006, 23:34

I'm with the Americans on this! Next time an American nutter decides to make a B-line for Great White North, our border guards should be able to pump them full of hot lead (Politely and in a Canadian way ofc).:laugh4:

Seriously, though, does anybody else see the irony?

Don Corleone

01-31-2006, 23:37

Amusingly, Goofball was totally right. In their relative defenses for their policies, the Americans and Canadians posting in this thread have highlighted the difference between the two.

Anyway, good luck with all our dregs coming your way. If they know you won't even bother to try to slow them down, where do you think they're going to high tail it to next time the heat is on? My guess would be the path of least resistance...

:boxing: :surrender:

Beirut

02-01-2006, 00:30

...the Americans and Canadians posting in this thread have highlighted the difference between the two.

For my part, I do not want the first Canadian a visitor to my country sees to be someone with a gun. Simple as that.

A cop ten feet away watching is fine. But the first person the visitor talks to should absolutely not be carrying a gun. It's not who we are and not who we want to be.

Papewaio

02-01-2006, 00:35

Let police or SWAT deal with an armed crossing.

The guards are the eyes and ears, not the armed forces.

Security guards in Australia are generally unarmed except for those transporting valuables.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 00:53

Security guards in Australia are generally unarmed except for those transporting valuables.

These are far from security guards. So is there a RCMP there to back up these guys and if so where were they this time? If not you guys are in real trouble.

Papewaio

02-01-2006, 00:55

We also have state and federal quarantine guards and they are generally unarmed... unless you include beagles.

Goofball

02-01-2006, 01:02

What's the point of having a guard if they aren't going to guard anything?

They are not guards, they are customs agents. They are not charged with providing physical security for Canadians (that is a job more appropriately left to our police and armed forces), but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.

Having said that, with such a violent, armed population living directly to our south, maybe we should rethink that policy...
:idea2:

Strike For The South

02-01-2006, 01:04

I know what I can do! I smuggle illegal arms into Canada and they give me my pills! Its foolproof!

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 01:05

Pick me up some weed while your there. But be careful when you return. I hear our guards are actually armed . What were we thinking?

Kanamori

02-01-2006, 01:06

Arms trades for BC Buds seems fair to me...:book:

Edit: pick mine up first, mine friends have been bragging about some good stuff they got... then I reminded them I'm going to Amsterdam, and I could lie about the price when I send it back to the PO Box.:laugh4:

Crazed Rabbit

02-01-2006, 01:06

I guess this underscores a fundamental philosophical difference between Canadians and Americans. If given the choice between engaging in avoidable armed conflict that will most likely result in loss of life but offer no real benefit, versus walking away from a situation and letting it diffuse to the point where it might be resolved without anybody ending up dead, Americans tend to choose the former, while Canadians prefer the latter.

Oh well. You say tomayto, I say tomahto...

So you wouldn't mind the guards walking away and then the crazies getting through and shooting up some crowded place like The Collosus movie theater or a wave pool in southern BC? Huh.

I think the real difference is that these Canadian guards seem all to willing to avoid conflict even if it means more trouble lately, an offspring of the naive belief that all violence is bad, unnecessary, and uncivilized. Like the above example; not confronting two fugitive murderers because you might kill them is best, despite the fact that they would most probably do great harm to innocents later on.

American guards, on the other hand, would put themselves in harm's way to stop murderers from escaping justice or injurying people.

@Gawain-
No, there's no RCMP cars parked there now.

What really angers me is how the Canadian's refusal to defend their borders means more fugitives will be speeding through Whatcom county trying to get to the land where you can force your way across the border with a pistol, knife, or working car.

Crazed Rabbit

Papewaio

02-01-2006, 01:12

Modern economics requires the use of specialists.

The border guard specialise in import infringements and writing tickets, smiling and directing tourists.

RCMP specialise in chasing criminals.

Problems occur when non-specialists try to perform specialist roles. Also specialists without the correct equipment and environment may find it hard to perform their duties adequately.

Crazed Rabbit

02-01-2006, 01:14

but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

And what if an 'import violation' occurs, and the person refuses to cooperate and just continues through? What are the 'customs agents' going to do? Talk sternly to them as they drive off? What if a bunch of gangsters drive through looking for trouble? Your 'customs agents' would be powerless to stop them from going into the suburbs of Vancouver.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.

Hmm. In the fantasy world that is the Canadian Psyche, there must be no such people as violent criminals or small time crooks acting independently of countries and nations.

Crazed Rabbit

Goofball

02-01-2006, 01:29

So you wouldn't mind the guards walking away and then the crazies getting through and shooting up some crowded place like The Collosus movie theater or a wave pool in southern BC? Huh.

Riiiiigghhhhht. That's exactly how I feel. I would rather see women and children get shot full of holes than have our customs agents carry handguns.

Please dial 1-800-GET-REAL.

Can you tell me the last time one of your armed, violent citizens charged through our border and went on a wild killing spree that would have been prevented if only our border guards carried pistols? Would these be the same crack-head axe-murderers I'm always hearing about when pro-gun types are telling me why they need assault rifles for home defence?

I think the real difference is that these Canadian guards seem all to willing to avoid conflict even if it means more trouble lately, an offspring of the naive belief that all violence is bad, unnecessary, and uncivilized. Like the above example; not confronting two fugitive murderers because you might kill them is best, despite the fact that they would most probably do great harm to innocents later on.

Sorry, but how were these customs agents going to have any hope of killing (or even slowing down) these fugitive murderers? Were they supposed to bore them to death reading them customs regulations?

At any rate, you are prefectly welcome to think that. And guess what? Luckily for you, you live in the U.S., and luckily for me, I live in Canada.

American guards, on the other hand, would put themselves in harm's way to stop murderers from escaping justice or injurying people.

Yes, trained, armed American law enforcement officers would do that. As would trained, armed Canadian law enforcement officers.

But Canadian customs agents are not trained, armed law enforcement officers. They are there to enforce customs/excise regulations. Arming them and telling them to shoot it out with armed fugitives would be like giving an accountant agent a gun and telling him to go and capture people who don't to pay their taxes.

So please, don't go any further with your line of thinking that Americans are so much more selfless and brave than Canadians are.

There are cowards and heroes on both sides of the border, and whether you sing The Star Spangled Banner or Oh Canada has nothing to do with which category you fall into.

Goofball

02-01-2006, 01:36

Hmm. In the fantasy world that is the Canadian Psyche, there must be no such people as violent criminals or small time crooks acting independently of countries and nations.

Before you start the country bashing, maybe you should look at the fantasy world of the American psyche: where line dancing is a good way to get laid, Iraq really did have WMDs, and Jesus would be in favor of the death penalty if he was here today.

:laugh4:

Or maybe it could be that both of our countries are very different, and beliefs that may reflect reality in the USA do not reflect reality in Canada, and vice versa.

Do ya think?

:inquisitive:

Strike For The South

02-01-2006, 01:47

where line dancing is a good way to get laid, .

man, How do you think I was made brotha:laugh4:

Kanamori

02-01-2006, 01:48

At least we have proper dinner jackets and slacks in the States!:laugh4:

:sweatdrop:

Xiahou

02-01-2006, 01:48

They are not guards, they are customs agents. They are not charged with providing physical security for Canadians (that is a job more appropriately left to our police and armed forces), but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.Speak for yourself- your border guards want to be armed.

"We will never work in a safe environment," said Steve Pellerin-Fowlie, who said about 20 guards were involved in the incident. "What we've been calling for for years is the tools that will provide the maximum amount of safety possible."
"On Nov. 6, we had a person cross into Canada in my riding by simply pointing a gun at a lone official who was there, an unarmed woman. She stepped back and let the individual cross the border."

The man was eventually captured, but not by Canadian authorities. He wasn't caught until he tried to return back the U.S. on a bus, long after he had got rid of his gun north of the border, said Toews. Luckily for them, it sounds like they're likely to get armed under the Conservative parliament.

Goofball

02-01-2006, 01:59

Speak for yourself- your border guards want to be armed.

Well, I guess I know how Americans must feel when foreigners who in many cases have never even been to America feel that they are qualified to tell Americans what things are really like in America, based on what they have read in the papers.

Xiahou, you should know better than that. One (or even several) customes agents saying they want guns does not equate to all of them wanting guns. Believe it or not, this has actually been on the news quite a bit in in my neck of the woods lately (see my public profile, I live pretty close to where this happened). And just yesterday, there was a customs agent interviewed on the radio who was adamantly against having to carry a gun to work. But as with your example, this is anecdotal.

So, what was that little bit of wisdom you offered earlier?

Oh, yes. I believe it was "Speak for yourself..."

Papewaio

02-01-2006, 02:10

Should all American civil servants carry firearms?

Xiahou

02-01-2006, 02:12

So, what was that little bit of wisdom you offered earlier?

Oh, yes. I believe it was "Speak for yourself..."Umm yeah... I guess the difference would be that the person I quoted was a union spokesman for the border guards. The union is unabashedly in favor of arming it's guards. That's a bit different than just 1 guard's opinion.

Taffy_is_a_Taff

02-01-2006, 02:37

God bless the American customs though, I've had terrible experiences with the U.S. authorities acting like jerks on the Canadian border (the Canadians have always been delightful though).

I was entertained that nobody ever answered the complaints line when I tried to report the U.S. customs people.

Probably good that at least one side of the Canadian border is guarded by very unpleasant jobsworths.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 02:41

I would imagine this is the same at all their borders. So whats to stop terrorists from just entering Canada? But then again I hear they let them in anyway.

Taffy_is_a_Taff

02-01-2006, 02:44

wasn't there a bunch of Canadian AQ caught in Afghanistan?

they obviously export them too (well, I think they were all immigrants so I guess it was more a case of re-exporting them).

Papewaio

02-01-2006, 03:00

I would imagine this is the same at all their borders. So whats to stop terrorists from just entering Canada? But then again I hear they let them in anyway.

So if you have a sidearm you can magically stop someone who is going to do a terrorist act. Even though they may live in your country for years, work, learn and do other things... and then one day board a plane with 4 others and take down an airplane with a boxcutter.

So do sidearms detect boxcutters?
Is it illegal to carry one across the US-Canadian border?
Might it be feasible that a terrorist not carry the boxcutter themselves?

Taffy_is_a_Taff

02-01-2006, 03:03

if I were planning to sneak into the U.S. from Canada I'd do so under the pretext of ice fishing on the great lakes, no worries.:2thumbsup:

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 03:05

Krypta

02-01-2006, 03:27

Can you tell me the last time one of your armed, violent citizens charged through our border and went on a wild killing spree that would have been prevented if only our border guards carried pistols?

Its funny you'd mention that because , well there was that one case, not to long ago, where Armed American Border Guards let a kid covered in blood, carrying an arsenal of weapons and a bloody chainsaw that he had just used to hack his 2 neighbors heads off with in Canada, into the to US without as much as a patdown. ~:rolleyes:

Thank God for Team America, I feel safer already.

Redleg

02-01-2006, 04:17

Krypta

02-01-2006, 04:23

Remember this is after he passed by the Canadian Border by the unarmed customs agents.

:juggle2:

So Canada has to babysit American Border Guards now too ?

Redleg

02-01-2006, 04:31

So Canada has to babysit American Border Guards now too ?

Not at all - they should of followed their procedures and called the police to arrest the individual before he crossed the border. Ie he committed the crimes on the Canadian side of the border.

In the instance you are attempting to bring up - the Canadian side of the border failed to attempt to stop the man. The United States agents failed to detain a suspious person covered in a red substance that turned out to be blood.

Krypta

02-01-2006, 05:36

Not at all - they should of followed their procedures and called the police to arrest the individual before he crossed the border. Ie he committed the crimes on the Canadian side of the border.

In the instance you are attempting to bring up - the Canadian side of the border failed to attempt to stop the man. The United States agents failed to detain a suspious person covered in a red substance that turned out to be blood.

I see already how this conversation is gonna unfold.

*Bows out before I begin to bang my head against the wall* :wall:

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 05:49

Well judging by some posts here Canada considers their border guards nothing more than state sponsored security guards. Not fit or needed to train as law officers. Ours are both. They dont have to call the police when someone disobeys the law. Sounds more efficient.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-01-2006, 05:58

Should all American civil servants carry firearms?

Actually, I think everyone would be safer if personal firearms were mandatory for all mentally competent adults. That was pretty much the case in the frontier West and there was relatively little violent crime -- despite the Hollywoodization of things claiming otherwise.

Sidenote: Since I've used the "f" word, Caesar10's constant searching will hit on this post quickly. :laugh4:

GoreBag

02-01-2006, 07:19

Krypta

02-01-2006, 07:45

I remember this story. Wasn't he carrying a weapon?

Well apart from being covered from head to foot in blood himself (or as Redleg likes to refer to it as a suspicious substance) ...he had a homemade sword with a swastika etched into it, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with the blood from the 2 neighbors heads he had hacked off and stuffed in pillow cases. He also described to the American border officials that he worked for the NSA, was a Marine Assassin and had 700 confirmed kills. Apart from that, nothing was out of the ordinary.

InsaneApache

02-01-2006, 10:09

Our border guards are unarmed. Must be a commonwealth thing. Just as well, otherwise we'd never let the French in. :laugh4:

Husar

02-01-2006, 11:45

Well, here in the EU we don´t have any border guards anymore, but we also abandoned the stupid "magic line" also known as the borderline, so our police can follow suspects into other EU countries. I think we also want to introduce a standardised colour scheme for EU police cars. I think that system beats even armed borderguards, because apparently the US borderguards didn´t do much to stop the suspects either, if I understand that correctly it was a police/sheriff car that stopped them just before the "magic line" they wouldn´t be allowed to cross.:dizzy2:

Beirut

02-01-2006, 12:02

Good thing for you Team America is here to keep you safe.

And we love you for it, you big hulking superpower you. ~:flirt:

Come on - annex us. Annex us right now! Have you will with us. Oh dear... I'm feeling faint.

Redleg

02-01-2006, 14:42

Well apart from being covered from head to foot in blood himself (or as Redleg likes to refer to it as a suspicious substance) ...he had a homemade sword with a swastika etched into it, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with the blood from the 2 neighbors heads he had hacked off and stuffed in pillow cases. He also described to the American border officials that he worked for the NSA, was a Marine Assassin and had 700 confirmed kills. Apart from that, nothing was out of the ordinary.

So why didn't the Canadian Border agents stop him from crossing?

It seems in your desire to point out the error of the American side of the crossing your ignoring the error of the Canadian side. Which is exactly my point.

If you don't notice the difference in the two stories - I will give you a clue. On the American side - the authorities attempted to stop the criminals from fleeing across the Border. Can the same thing be said in the instance that you are attempting to use as a counter?

Vladimir

02-01-2006, 15:08

I like the idea that our border guards are unarmed.

I also like the idea of an RCMP officer sitting in a cruiser behind every border crossing as well.

Nothing wrong with that. Kind of like weigh stations on the highway. Unarmed people operating it, but state police ready to take off after anyone who skips it.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 17:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Good thing for you Team America is here to keep you safe.

And we love you for it, you big hulking superpower you.

Come on - annex us. Annex us right now! Have you will with us. Oh dear... I'm feeling faint.

You do realise I was reffering to the movie.

Goofball

02-01-2006, 18:00

So why didn't the Canadian Border agents stop him from crossing?

As I said, they are not border guards, they are customs agents.

It seems in your desire to point out the error of the American side of the crossing your ignoring the error of the Canadian side. Which is exactly my point.

Which only demonstrates that you have no point.

In this whole thread, Americans have been giving Canadians a big blast of shite and telling us how much safer we'd be if our borders were fortresses and we had armed border guards like you guys have, which is obviously the right way to do it, because it's how Americans do it.

Then it was pointed out that giving border guards guns really does not do any more to protect you than having unarmed border agents, and you try to turn it around and say it was our fault for not trying to stop a person from leaving the country.

Riiiigggghhht....

Just take your pwning like a man and quit while you're behind.

:tomato:

Vladimir

02-01-2006, 18:07

And we love you for it, you big hulking superpower you. ~:flirt:

Come on - annex us. Annex us right now! Have you will with us. Oh dear... I'm feeling faint.

I'll be right there! :eyebrows:

Monarch

02-01-2006, 18:18

The point is even Bin Laden could walk right by them and theres little they could do . Mr Bin Laden put down the WMD. Hmmm I think I heard that somewhere before. Good thing for you Team America is here to keep you safe.

Your blowing this all our of proportion with stuff like 'terrorists could walk in and out'. As somebody else said the EU's extent of 'borderguards' is a guy called Les who works at passport control.

And anyway, if terrorists can walk into Canada, then they are coming from, where, ah yes good old 'Team America' as you so interestingly put it, perhaps one could suggest that Canada shouldn't need border guards with guns if only the wonderful Team America could keep the terrorists in, in prison cells preferably.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 18:25

Your blowing this all our of proportion with stuff like 'terrorists could walk in and out'. As somebody else said the EU's extent of 'borderguards' is a guy called Les who works at passport control.

Is this true at all your borders or only at the ones between members of the EU?

And anyway, if terrorists can walk into Canada, then they are coming from, where, ah yes good old 'Team America' as you so interestingly put it, perhaps one could suggest that Canada shouldn't need border guards with guns if only the wonderful Team America could keep the terrorists in, in prison cells preferably.

Judging by your imigration standards they can just walk in off the boat from just about anywhere.

Crazed Rabbit

02-01-2006, 18:31

I think the case-the one case, it should be noted-you're using is one where the US authorities were unaware of his criminal actions. The Canadians weren't chasing him or trying to arrest him as he fled.

In this case, the Canadians were aware of the bad guys coming, and they knew the Americans were trying to stop them. Did they make any attempt to stop them? No, they left the border wide open, leaving the people stuck in the lines waiting to cross to fend for themselves.

You can't blame the Americans for not arresting a suspicious character and minimize the Canadians doing nothing- absolutely nothing - to detain or hinder two known murderers from crossing.

Crazed Rabbit

Goofball

02-01-2006, 18:38

I think the case-the one case, it should be noted-you're using is one where the US authorities were unaware of his criminal actions. The Canadians weren't chasing him or trying to arrest him as he fled.

No, but he was carrying a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with what appeared to be blood. I would think that a crack team like your U.S. border guards might have made the criminal connection there. After all, having a gun makes you more able to reason things out, doesn't it?

Beirut

02-01-2006, 18:41

You do realise I was reffering to the movie.

You mean... you won't take lay us down, annex us, and bring us to a state of national nirvana while we're vulnerable like this?

Hmmpff!

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 18:48

You mean... you won't take lay us down, annex us, and bring us to a state of national nirvana while we're vulnerable like this?

No we wouldnt. There are too many liberals in Canada. You can keep them. In fact Canada was built on our rejects.:laugh4:

Redleg

02-01-2006, 19:25

As I said, they are not border guards, they are customs agents.

Which means when they notice something wrong they are suppose to call the law enforcement. Which in the examble of the axe welding individual the Canadian Border agents did not even do that.

Which only demonstrates that you have no point.

Surely you can do better then this come back. Did the Canadian border agents report the individual and his suspecious activity or not? Did Canadian Law enforcement attempt to stop the individual at all?

In this whole thread, Americans have been giving Canadians a big blast of shite and telling us how much safer we'd be if our borders were fortresses and we had armed border guards like you guys have, which is obviously the right way to do it, because it's how Americans do it.

And so you are now getting defensive? Again have I given anyone crap - or have I ointed out the differences between the two events?

Then it was pointed out that giving border guards guns really does not do any more to protect you than having unarmed border agents, and you try to turn it around and say it was our fault for not trying to stop a person from leaving the country.

Riiiigggghhht....

LOL - you are definitely being defensive. You claim that the border agents are not suppose to stop the individual in question but to report it to the law enforcement arm of the Canadian government. However did the Canadian Border agents report the event - or did they just allow the individual to cross the border? I personally don't care - if I wanted to cross the border between Canada and the United States there are places to cross where their is absolutely no one around nor custom agents, law enforcement officials. Just maybe a bear or moose to see my passing. I can do the same thing on the Southern Border also - just need to carry enough water for the crossing.

Just take your pwning like a man and quit while you're behind.

:tomato:

Maybe you should take your own advice. :laugh4:

Redleg

02-01-2006, 19:28

No, but he was carrying a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with what appeared to be blood. I would think that a crack team like your U.S. border guards might have made the criminal connection there. After all, having a gun makes you more able to reason things out, doesn't it?

Again the the Canadian authorities attempt to stop the man at the Canadian Border after he committed his crime in Canada? Did Canada call the United States side and ask the United States to detain him for questioning? Was any effort at all made by Canada to inform the United States that the ax welding individual had just committed a crime and is fleeing Canada to avoid prosecution?

Husar

02-01-2006, 20:01

Is this true at all your borders or only at the ones between members of the EU?
Only between members of the Schengen-treaty, afaik. I don´t know whether that applies for new EU countries as well. But even that is more cooperation than the US and Canada seem to have managed.

Judging by your imigration standards they can just walk in off the boat from just about anywhere.
Seeing that you are worried about terrorists walking from the US to Canada and thinking of some threads about your mexican border, I wonder how those terrorists came into the US, which is a prerequisite for them to walk into Canada...:oops:

Gawain of Orkeny

02-01-2006, 20:09

Only between members of the Schengen-treaty, afaik. I don´t know whether that applies for new EU countries as well. But even that is more cooperation than the US and Canada seem to have managed.

Thats what I thought. We dont have border guards between our states either. Canada and the US are not the same as the EU. Were just neighbors

Seeing that you are worried about terrorists walking from the US to Canada and thinking of some threads about your mexican border, I wonder how those terrorists came into the US, which is a prerequisite for them to walk into Canada

Youve seen me constantly complain about the state of our southern borders. But terrorists have been caught here that walked in from Canada who had imigrated there. In fact only 50 miles from my home.

Redleg

02-01-2006, 20:13

Only between members of the Schengen-treaty, afaik. I don´t know whether that applies for new EU countries as well. But even that is more cooperation than the US and Canada seem to have managed.

You would be incorrect. Regardless of the petty little squabble of the armed or unarmed custom agents on both sides of the border. Yes folks those that man our borders fall into two categories - custom agents and border patrol, all part of the same governmental department

http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cgov/home.xml

Its really rather easy to cross the Canada - United States Border. Nothing really all that difficult. Some changes difficultily getting into the United States from Canada if you don't have a valid identification. But hell last time I crossed the border all I needed was my driver's license.

Seeing that you are worried about terrorists walking from the US to Canada and thinking of some threads about your mexican border, I wonder how those terrorists came into the US, which is a prerequisite for them to walk into Canada...:oops:

Actually this statement makes absolutely no sense to me, but this might be your point.

Now the Southern Border can be outright dangerous both from the violence that is going on just across the border in Mexico. Armed gangs involved in smuggling all types of items to include people to exist along most of the viable crossing points - and some of the more difficult ones also. There is also a possiblity of the Mexican Army being involved in supporting illegal crossings of the border. Some reports state that Mexican troops have crossed into the United States numerous times over the last 5 years.

Bottom line is that you can not compare the two borders at all. Regardless of the lack of armed security at the Canadian Border Crossings, Canada should have the ability to prevent illegal crossings by force of criminal elements attempting to escape across the border from the United States, especially when the United States informs Canada that they are in hot pursuit of a criminal attempting just that.

And the reverse applies to the United States. However if neither government representives contacts the other side that an individual is fleeing - then the arguement is mote - since the border agents can not know if the individual is fleeing because of criminal activity if they are not told.

Xiahou

02-01-2006, 20:25

Its funny you'd mention that because , well there was that one case, not to long ago, where Armed American Border Guards let a kid covered in blood, carrying an arsenal of weapons and a bloody chainsaw that he had just used to hack his 2 neighbors heads off with in Canada, into the to US without as much as a patdown. ~:rolleyes:Not true. He was detained and his weapons were confiscated. He was released because there was nothing to charge him with- no agencies had him listed as wanted and he apparently (~:confused:) wasn't violating any laws by carrying weapons to the border. Redardless, it's an entirely seperate issue- even if you everything you said were true, you'd only be using bad behavior to justify more bad behavior.

Krypta

02-01-2006, 21:39

Not true. He was detained and his weapons were confiscated. He was released because there was nothing to charge him with- no agencies had him listed as wanted and he apparently (~:confused:) wasn't violating any laws by carrying weapons to the border. Redardless, it's an entirely seperate issue- even if you everything you said were true, you'd only be using bad behavior to justify more bad behavior.

Yes, true. You call holding him for 15 minutes, detained ? I know of people that, with kids in the backseat, went over to the US shopping for the day that have been given a harder time getting back into Canada.

The bottom line is, your border guards let him in, case closed. If the glaring reality of this situation doesn't give you any sort of pause, then you have far more issues on your hands than Canadians running their border how they want to run their border. If you want to condone what happened with this kid and turn a blind eye then so be it, it doesn't matter to me either way. But putting a gun in their hands certainly didn't make these US border guards smarter, braver, fitter, or more comptitent than their Canadian counterparts no matter which way you look at it. The only difference is they couldve put a bullet in this kids head if they wanted to.

Husar

02-01-2006, 21:40

I understand many of your points, Redleg, but my main point was that in the EU, officers who pursuit a suspect can follow that suspect into the neighboring country and don´t have to stop at the borderline, so if there are no officers close in the neighboring country, they can still catch the suspect.
On the US-Canadian border that seems to be different because the article says that US police stopped the suspects just a second before they would have had to stop because of the borderline, which I think is superfluous. A police car is not an invasion force, so why don´t both countries sign a similar treaty that would allow the US police to follow the suspects into Canada and the other way around. That would also make border guards´jobs less dangerous and perhaps make catching suspects easier.

Xiahou

02-01-2006, 22:48

Yes, true. You call holding him for 15 minutes, detained ? I know of people that, with kids in the backseat, went over to the US shopping for the day that have been given a harder time getting back into Canada.Still not true. He was held for hours while they questioned him and called other law enforcement agencies to see if he was wanted. You also say he 'wasnt even patted down' again, not true. They searched him and confiscated all of his weapons. In summation- what you stated originally was false and you got your facts wrong yet again in your next response. :rolleyes:

solypsist

02-02-2006, 03:37

Re: We Stand on Guard for Thee...Unless Bad Guys Come, in Which Case We Flee.

Canada is still a better country than the U.S.

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 03:45

I assume that New York is better then both? :2thumbsup:

solypsist

02-02-2006, 03:48

heh. Manhattan is an island off the coast of Europe :2thumbsup:

I assume that New York is better then both? :2thumbsup:

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 03:49

It must be a trait left over from the Dutch...

Strike For The South

02-02-2006, 03:51

pfft. THE STARS AT NIGHT ARE BIG AND BRIGHT DEEP IN THE HEART OF TEXAS

Gawain of Orkeny

02-02-2006, 04:01

Re: We Stand on Guard for Thee...Unless Bad Guys Come, in Which Case We Flee.

Canada is still a better country than the U.S.

Hey the border is only hours away.

heh. Manhattan is an island off the coast of Europe

Thats not all of NY city even. Its still part of the US . A very liberal part I will grant you. NYC is probably the best example that all people and religions can get along. What has Canada got to compare with our great city?

lars573

02-02-2006, 04:31

What has Canada got to compare with our great city?
Off the top of my head;
1.Doesn't border New Jersey.
2.Beer that is actually an alcoholic beverage rather than spoiled apple juice.
3.Less crime
4.better air quality
5.It's not a terrorist target

Gawain of Orkeny

02-02-2006, 05:32

We have beer thats just as good as yours if not better. :laugh4: Those other things are minor compared to the advantages of NYC. But I give you an A for effort.

lars573

02-02-2006, 15:25

I don't really like beer, but I've been told what passes for beer in the US we would call light beer. Plus the bigger the human zoo (IE a city) the less connection you have with the natural world around you.

Vladimir

02-02-2006, 17:54

Off the top of my head;
1.Doesn't border New Jersey.
2.Beer that is actually an alcoholic beverage rather than spoiled apple juice.
3.Less crime
4.better air quality
5.It's not a terrorist target

I got a sick laugh from #5. It's not a target of terrorism, just a source of and safe haven for terrorists.

You should have stopped with the first one, 'nuf said. :2thumbsup:

Slyspy

02-02-2006, 19:06

If Canada is a source and haven for terrorists rather than a target then why should it matter if their border guards are armed? All that matters is that the American ones are, after all that is where the unlikely horde of Canadian terrorists will be heading! I'm not sure whether a dangerous terrorist would actually attempt an offical crossing of such a huge and porous border anyway. You might get the stupid ones going through the check point I suppose....

Don Corleone

02-02-2006, 20:33

They don't even have to be terrorists. There was a comical, at the same time sad, story of a guy that almost froze to death making an illegal crossing into Canada from North Dakota last winter. He had met and fell in love with a girl on the internet. As he was already in the US illegally, he knew he couldn't go through immigration control, so he drove out into the middle of nowhere and attempted to walk 5 miles through a snowy prairie. Aah, the things guys will do for the promise of a little nookie... :stupido3: