Religious intolerance or freedom of speech. [Archive]

Sigurd

02-01-2006, 23:02

Those who have been following the news here in the North of Europe haven’t missed the latest events in Palestine. I am not talking about the elections, but the latest play by extremists and religious leaders.
To sum up for the uninitiated; A Danish newspaper published some time ago a few caricature comic strips depicting Mohammed the prophet. Last year a Norwegian Christian magazine did the same.
The extremists in Palestine burned earlier this week a Danish flag and a Norwegian one in protest and gave warnings about violence and death. Danes and other Scandinavians has been beaten up in Muslim nations and Danish goods has been boycotted in stores in Muslim nations.
The threats against Scandinavians have escalated, the extremists promise swift deaths and terror upon the northern infidels. Messages like Death to you all have been painted on Scandinavian flags and burned. Leaders of Middle East nations demand apologies from Denmark and Norway. The Danes have publicly apologised to every Muslim they might have offended. The Norwegian government will not make a formal apology.
Bomb threats have been given several Danish embassies in the world and even the newspaper that first printed the caricatures has been given a bomb threat.
Today several European newspapers including Die Welt, France Soir, Corriere della Serra, La Stampa and El Periodico published the pictures. Tomorrow papers in Switzerland, Holland and others will publish them…

The Islamic extremists cries religious intolerance, the western extremists cries freedom of speech. Us normal people caught in the middle suddenly have a work day with a slighter worsened security.

Oh, the caricatures that will possibly put the org on the “must terrorise list” of the extremists can be found in today’s Die Welt online paper…

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3819/boicotdenmark20qa.jpg

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7787/burnnorway5uj.jpg

Leet Eriksson

02-01-2006, 23:15

Check "A good reminder" thread.

Its been talked about there.

Sigurd

02-01-2006, 23:23

Check "A good reminder" thread.

Its been talked about there.
Damn... that is what you get for not being here to often... and I did a quick look to see if somebody had posted something... "A good reminder" seemed slightly unlikely to hide this particular topic...

Leet Eriksson

02-01-2006, 23:43

Damn... that is what you get for not being here to often... and I did a quick look to see if somebody had posted something... "A good reminder" seemed slightly unlikely to hide this particular topic...

I have to say, they should merge this thread, becuase you do provide important points in your first post, so lets hope a mod does it quick.

Ice

02-01-2006, 23:53

These guys really need to ligthen up.

Louis VI the Fat

02-02-2006, 01:36

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7787/burnnorway5uj.jpg

https://img477.imageshack.us/img477/1118/drapeaubrule18vv.jpg

https://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2987/sidepix73012029iw.jpg

https://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1328/flagburning7jv.jpg

https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9048/natbag102mideastiraqpalesti6qu.jpg

Alternatively, you can set 15000 cars ablaze:
https://img472.imageshack.us/img472/3995/180000229photo2en.jpg

How many flags do these people have anyway? It's the same picture, same story all the time.

Who has any beef with the Danes or Norwegians? Nobody else on the whole planet. Because that's pretty hard. It's bloody hard to find a reason to pick a fight with those perfectly peaceful, most reasonable societies. :furious3:

Are they determined to fight the entire world? Are they not satisfied 'till they've set the whole world ablaze?
Get a life. The Americans, Europeans and Asians have got one. Get one too. Or don't. Whatever. Just don't take your frustration out on everybody else.

drone

02-02-2006, 01:51

Looks like a good time to buy stock in flag manufacturers...

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 02:02

Drone-san I was just thinking that. Supply flags and zippos to the middle east... maybe make a BBQ that uses flags for fuel or flag fired pizzas?

Crazed Rabbit

02-02-2006, 02:10

I do wonder where they get all their flags. I should start up a flag making company in the middle east. You could make shoddy products that aren't in the least even flame resistant (and even advertise that point! "Our Flags Burn Best!") and charge a good deal. Accuse them of not being faithful enough if they don't want to pay too much for a flag.

Crazed Rabbit

Leet Eriksson

02-02-2006, 02:17

you guys got beat...

then again the palestinians knew first hand, and started burning home-made flags.. :laugh4:

Ice

02-02-2006, 02:23

you guys got beat...

then again the palestinians knew first hand, and started burning home-made flags.. :laugh4:

I guess they finally saw the irony in buying flags that said "Made in Isreal" or "Made in USA" :idea2:

Kanamori

02-02-2006, 02:26

I almost felt bad laughing at the drawn flag they were burning.:dizzy2: Next they will be making cars of legos and melting them, since the French cars are too far away.

Seriously though, who thinks they are being hardcore by drawing a flag and burning the paper? I'd rather just march around and shoot guns in the air than stoop to burning drawn flags.

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 02:28

Give them flags with invisible ink of the Koran etched into it.

They burn the flag and condemn themselves to hell as the words become revealed in the heat... they burn holy words... should get them in trouble.

Kanamori

02-02-2006, 02:32

Thank God you're on our side Pape.

Oh dear, I fear I've crossed that line again.

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 02:37

Ice

02-02-2006, 02:41

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 02:44

Tough love is what I like to call it.

I also like to think terrorists should have instead of a death sentence a life sentence that most insults their internal belief system... as the terrorists should be considered to be heritics with regards to those who peacefully practice... so make so-called muslim terrorists pig herders, christians ex-communicated and then made to help print books on new age learning, abortion clinic bombers should have their sperm or eggs used for DNA research... etc

Papewaio

02-02-2006, 02:46

"Here's an American flag!"

*burning* ::Sees the words::

"April Fools Day!"

Or it changes into their own flag... a bit like those t-shirts that change colour.

Sigurd

02-02-2006, 11:11

I just learned from my newspaper this morning that the editor of the French newspaper France Soir has been fired over printing the Danish caricature drawings.

The situation escalates and the extremists are now burning pictures of the Danish prime minister.

https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1389/demonstrasjon3km.jpg

I told in my initial post that the Danes have apologized. I guess I was misinformed; it is the Danish editor of Jyllandsposten that made apologies.

The extremists are burning flags with old and powerful symbols… what they don’t realize is that it is the extremists back home that consider our flags holier than holy.
They are burning the Danish and Norwegian right-extremists most prized symbol; the national flags.
The result is that the extremists are pushing their fellow Nordic Muslims in front of the raging Right-extremist steam train, which could lead to serious confrontations.

https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5007/burndenmark5oh.jpg

If this escalation continues I look with worry to the future. Our outer right-wing party; Fremskrittspartiet, did their all time election last year with 22, 1% of the total votes being second after the winners (Labour) that got 32, 7%.
They will continue to point out the cultural problems with our fellow countrymen and women that happen to believe in a different religion.
If Fremskrittspartiet should win an election they could form a government. That would most probably cut all foreign relief and put Norway on the isolationist wave.
Luckily the Norwegian Islamic community is a bunch of level headed and God fearing people, that understand what it is all about. So far the Norwegians have more or less nothing against ordinary Muslims.

Danish extremists are rallying support and want to burn the Koran at the town hall in Copenhagen.
Danish and unknown Muslim hackers are at war. The Danes are hacking (DOS attacks) Al-Jazeera whilst the counter team is nuking the Jyllandsposten website.

Latest in from the press, armed men have surrounded the EU office in Gaza city. They have fired their Kalashnikovs in the air and tried to climb the walls.

Rodion Romanovich

02-02-2006, 11:56

Well, despite how tempting it is, it's important to realize that the groups that do this are not the same as the muslim community at large. In a way these actions are a convenient way of finding out who are extremists and who aren't. They have no right to tell what should be legal and illegal in countries others than their own - we won't infringe press freedom. The question is whether the pictures are insulting and harassing in a way that could be seen as illegal by existing law. Can anyone who is good at Danish law practise comment on that? With fairly international law concepts it could be seen as threatening and generalizing in a discriminating way to imply that the Prophet would be a terrorist, on the other hand showing such a picture in a collection of other pictures means the intended interpretation of the whole is more likely intended to not be concentrated on that single picture, but instead by reading the entire message the pictures, and the accompanying text, tries to convey. No matter what, it's according to western law only a borderline case of crime, if sentenced the sentence would be very low. It's important to point out that similar insults to Christian faith have been given, and not punished, in the same countries. Therefore, it's not a case of discrimination of muslim faith, but the way our laws work. However I can understand it's difficult for the muslims who feel offended to realize that, or even obtain such information at all. It's not appropriate to react with hate demonstration so early, before even getting the full knowledge about what happened. For example some demonstrants burned flags of many other countries than Denmark, then in the afternoon the same day said "oops, we got the wrong flag, but we love your nice country so don't worry, we won't harm you". It doesn't give a very serious impression... Plus it's also not very serious to burn the flags of a nation that has little to do with a newspaper in the country publishing something. Burning the flag of a nation is to say that your hatred is directed towards that entire nation, and every human being living in it.

It could be that it's just a temporary reaction and demonstration as a form of entertainment to have something to do. It could be that the entire thing is of the same kind as "we got the wrong flag, don't worry we didn't mean it" and that it'll go away soon. Or it could be, in the eyes of some extremists, an excuse to carry out terrorist actions towards Denmark and other countries (including those whose flags they accidentally burned due to lack of proper information at first). I think it'll become apparent in a month of so from now which way it is.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 12:18

I just learned from my newspaper this morning that the editor of the French newspaper France Soir has been fired over printing the Danish caricature drawings.True. Jacques Lefranc has been fired yesterday afternoon by the owner of Presse Alliance (publishers of France-Soir). The owner is Egyptian-born media magnate Raymond Lakah. Lakah has issued an apology to Muslims for the printing of the caricatures, stating that the sacking of Lefranc was meant to be 'a strong sign of respect for the beliefs and personal convictions of every individual'.

Of course Lefranc's decision to publish the 12 cartoons was a much stronger sign of respect for the beliefs and personal convictions of every individual, as embodied in the right of free speech.

And it seems that the paper's staff are fighting back. This morning France-Soir carries a photo of three Muslims burning a Danish flag with the caption 'Voltaire help us, they've gone mad!'

In an editorial they write the following (my translation): 'Islam prohibits its believers to depict the Prophet in any way (..) the question that arises is the following: should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement? We know such societies only too well. One example is the Iran of the mullahs. But only yesterday it was the France of the Inquisition, of the stakes, and of Saint Bartholomew.'

Meanwhile I have polser coming out both ears. Is it working? :sick:

Meneldil

02-02-2006, 12:27

Well, despite how tempting it is, it's important to realize that the groups that do this are not the same as the muslim community at large.

Looks like you're wrong here, since most muslim gvts asked for apologies to Danemark.

And with Jacques Lefranc just being fired, I'm wondering where's free speech going. That's a total shame, yet no one will bother about it. I mean, what the hell ? For once, a newspaper show its respect for freedom of speech, and poof, the editor is fired ? WTF ? :inquisitive:
I don't even hope for a word from the gvt, since one of our minister said that Free Speech shouldn't conflict with respect of different religions.

Kanamori

02-02-2006, 12:54

"should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement?"

This was my big issue too. Sure, if I were a devout muslim, the pictures would make me angry. I don't care if they boycott the newspaper, but to boycott the entire country because the government won't apologize for not repressing that speech? That's just ridiculous. I hate every sort of censorship. Controlling the communication of ideas, because of their content, is the most tyrannical and unjust thing a government can ever do.

IMO, religious intolerance, as manifested in communication, and freedom of speech are totally compatible.

Sigurd

02-02-2006, 13:35

https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3753/trinityofevil1oj.jpg

http://alghurabaa.co.uk/

The world has a new axis of evil... with a sleight to the godhood.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 13:39

A tiny little bit of good news, a Jordan newspaper published the cartoons with the following message : muslims in the world be reasonable.

Now that may be too much to ask, but it is at least one man.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 13:49

I don't even hope for a word from the gvt, since one of our minister said that Free Speech shouldn't conflict with respect of different religions.From what I have understood the government has stated that freedom of speech should be exercised 'wisely', not that everyone's right to free speech should be curbed.

The government merely distances itself from France-Soir which is held 'solely responsible for publishing the caricatures'. And rightly so, since governments are not in the business of caricaturising prophets.

It would be a different matter altogether if Matignon or Beauvau (Interior Ministry) were to pressure papers to apologise, desist, etcetera. From what I have read in the French press this has not happened in the case of France-Soir, but maybe you have other/better info that says they did.

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 13:52

First of all, illustration of Hz. Muhammed is banned. That's something from the start. This is intended to save the figure from being included in any means of corruption. You see how "illustration" worked out lately. This is religion, it has rules on its own that is conveyed from the superior creator, therefore it will be a more productive debate if the discussion is not about the religion. Some guy in the recently closed thread of Fragony mentioned that Christianity grew up and that it was Islam's turn. Well, if you accept the superiority of a being then it is utterly the rejection of it if humans "grow" it. The religious disciplines are built to teach to the humankind, it's not a play-dough. The "interpretion" and "retouching" are different concepts, by the way. Interpretion may shed light onto what was meant to be by the religion, but "growing" equals to "retouch" and Islam does not need it and people banned from doing such.

IIRC, the German newspaper Bild had committed such a foul, and it had been approached by negative responses from the Muslim world as well, however they had apologized for the matter and it was peaceful again, wasn't it ? Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been some time. We need "common sense" at social level, that's not job of governments. Governments, as several patrons said in the "A Good Reminder" thread, have (and should not have) no force if there is something called "freedom of speech" over there. Anyway, didn't the related newspaper apologize for the matter ?

Burning flags ? No way. This is absolutely primitive. However considering the facts and differences between the societies, this was predictable -not rightful. Those of you who are furious towards seeing your flags burned, I share your feelings.

Though things seem a bit out of control, there is still a chance for common sense to work out -and of course the newspaper did not apologize already.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 13:54

Pffft, the french editor got fired bleh.

*

take me baby :wall:

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 13:57

Pffft, the french editor got fired bleh.

*

take me baby :wall:Read me (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1055618&postcount=21), baby. :wall:

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 14:08

..In an editorial they write the following (my translation): 'Islam prohibits its believers to depict the Prophet in any way (..) the question that arises is the following: should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement?..

I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 14:13

Read me (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1055618&postcount=21), baby. :wall:

It says he got fired.

Lazul

02-02-2006, 14:16

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian. :dizzy2:

Anyway, bruning the flags of countries that have a rather solid nationalistic far right movements isnt the best thing to do. Now they will gain support and then shit might hit the fan.

Just wait a little and some semi-nazi priest in Scandinavia will call for a crusade on the middle-east and so on.

.... humans are pathetic.

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 14:18

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 14:20

I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 14:30

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

This really comes as a shock :sweatdrop:

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 14:32

It says he got fired.There's my boy. :2thumbsup:

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 14:39

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least :idea2:

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 14:44

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian. :dizzy2:

They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

Husar

02-02-2006, 14:44

KukriKhan

02-02-2006, 14:46

Funny how the 20-foot wide "Boycott Denmark Products" banner in Sigurd's first foto is in neither Danish nor Arabic, but English.

'Made for TV', I guess.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 14:49

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least :idea2:To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 14:53

Now, what about me trying to force some of my chrisitan values in islamic countries? What if "my heart bleeds"(free quote from a muslim on another board) everytime I hear that my saviour Jesus christ is called "just" a prophet?

Jesus is one of the most respected prophets in Islam. No matter how Christianity was deformed, Islam mentions Jesus being holy - like the other prophets are. Islam world has a dense population of mis-interpretors, added the low-life-standard followers, the mess here we are talking about happens.

I'd recommend to ignore such fanatics whereever they are - just like sometimes I do on this forum as well, especially when it is a Islam bashing topic.

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 14:54

a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf,

This made me laugh incredible hard, what a silly name for something like kaviar, doesnt sound very encouraging at all.

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products, carlsberg and tuborg are all right, but since you live in holland/belgium I wundt sacrifice a good blegian beer - even to support denmark.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 14:56

To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

Remoulade mia muca. Best sauce ever, especially from Graasten Salater. And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 15:01

There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

Responsibility is a must when it is international.. Can't agree.. Whatever..

What were these Danish tastes you were talkin' about again ? :chef:

P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 15:05

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products (..)Of course! Why didn't I think of that before? You guys export all these flat tins with herring in various sauces and marinades, the stuff you use for your smørrebrød. Delicious!

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 15:16

Remoulade mia muca.Thank you, mi dushi.
And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.What makes you think I never watched it? I saw most Dogma movies, but I like Von Trier and particularly his Breaking the Waves best.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 15:24

What makes you think I never watched it?

You didn't start about it ;)

Best movies are made in Scandinavia anyway, have you seen Fanny och Alexander(full cut, 6 hours!)? And Breaking the waves is very good indeed, Lars von Trier is arrogant and pretentious, and rightfully so. The only 'bad' one is the Idiots, it just doesn't work. He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

Vladimir

02-02-2006, 15:26

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them. If the demographic trend continues "traditional" Europeans will become a minority. Germany and France have been unwilling and unable to assimilate their immigrant population and it seems that Denmark and the UK face a similar problem. The US also is having an immigration problem. Personally, I think I'm going to learn Chinese :stwshame: .

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 15:29

Responsibility is a must when it is international.So is truth. And truth can only be established in free debate, supported by freedom of thought, speech, print and movement. I agree with you that acting responsibly is a moral imperative, hence my rejection of the Danish caricatures as unsuitable and inappropriate. But I support the right of people to depict any prophet any way they fancy. I sincerely hope the other side will show some moral responsibility by not burning national symbols and issuing death threats.
P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?Hey hey, vhu du yuoo theenk is hees beeggest fan un zee .org mork mork?

http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/000/122/044_chef7.jpg.150.150.jpg

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 15:34

You didn't start about it ;)

Best movies are made in Scandinavia anyway, have you seen Fanny och Alexander(full cut, 6 hours!)? And Breaking the waves is very good indeed, Lars von Trier is arrogant and pretentious, and rightfully so. The only 'bad' one is the Idiots, it just doesn't work. He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....Kingdom Hospital -- inspired by Stephen King it seems. Never saw the series. Idiots a flop? It could be argued. I thought Dogville would be a total flop, but boy did that empty set work...

Fragony

02-02-2006, 15:34

Fragony

02-02-2006, 15:37

[i]Dogville would be a total flop, but boy did that empty set work...

Fantastic movie, but boy is it harsh to watch. I showed it to my barbarian friends but they didn't get it. Especially the end is great 'there is a mother with kids, kill the kids first and make her watch, I owe her that' yikes! And vivaldi just rocks.

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 15:40

'Mandys' getting in on the act now....

Mr Mandelson, the EU's Trade Commissioner, has now been drawn into the dispute as unofficial boycotts of the offending countries swept the Middle East. Two large Danish firms have reported a dramatic fall in sales.

He criticised cartoons as crude and juvenile, and warned British newspapers not to follow their European counterparts in reprinting them.

He said: "I understand on one level the motivation of newspapers to stand up for freedom of speech… but they are almost bound to cause offence." He said that any other re-publication "throws petrol on the flames".

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man. Let's face it, he is not really in a position to criticize the press as it was the papers that revealed his unconventional financial dealings.

clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2021464,00.html)

Lazul

02-02-2006, 15:44

White Europe is dying...

Sieg Heil? :tomato2:

Fragony

02-02-2006, 15:50

Sieg Heil? :tomato2:

Call Godwin?

Meneldil

02-02-2006, 15:52

First of all, illustration of Hz. Muhammed is banned. That's something from the start.

Great, they are banned for Muslims. Cool. If the event happened in some thirdworldistan country ruled by [insert some muslim fundamentalist group], that would have been fine. But Denmark is, as far as I know, a tolerant country, with a christian majority, with democratic institutions. I'm fairly sure there are no law in the Danish Constitution or in the Danish law system that ban illustration of Muhammed.
Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture. If the danish muslims don't want their countrymate to draw pics of the prophet, they can try to pass a law for it.

I'm glad european country don't give a crap about rules that were decided by some desert folks centuries ago.

The government merely distances itself from France-Soir which is held 'solely responsible for publishing the caricatures'. And rightly so, since governments are not in the business of caricaturising prophets.

Right, the governement has nothing to say there. Yet, apparently, the Quai d'Orsay claimed that free speech shouldn't be used to criticize religious beliefs. I couldn't find sources about that on the net, and since I heard it on TV, I guess it's to be taken with a pinch of salt, but if this is true, this is quite lame, coming from the head of our diplomacy.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 15:55

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them.Free speech has always been in danger of succumbing to the hysteria of the moment. Remember WWI, Hitler, Stalin, the anguish of the Cold War, the creep towards Big Brother? There have been countless internal and external threats to this hard-fought European tradition. The fact that new threats emerge does not mean that it will simply lie down and die this time round. The fight has always been the same, only the battlefield changed time and again. And it is changing right now. Freedom of speech has found new allies in Asia, Latin America and the Arab world, for instance in Lebanon. Even most Arab immigrants in Europe, many of whom may have trouble adapting to it, couldn't live without it anymore.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 16:02

Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture.With all due respect, that is the wrong approach to the issue. Nobody should have to respect an infringement on his right to free speech no matter in which country, no matter under what regime, and no matter what the majority religion says. Freedom of speech is a human right, not a Danish right, and it applies to a couregeous Jordanian paper that publishes the Prophet cartoons just as much as it applies to France-Soir. Freedom has no national boundaries, it is not exclusively Danish or European, Muslims may (and do) exercise it just like anyone else, and it benefits them just as it benefits anyone else.

LeftEyeNine

02-02-2006, 16:05

Great, they are banned for Muslims. Cool. If the event happened in some thirdworldistan country ruled by [insert some muslim fundamentalist group], that would have been fine. But Denmark is, as far as I know, a tolerant country, with a christian majority, with democratic institutions. I'm fairly sure there are no law in the Danish Constitution or in the Danish law system that ban illustration of Muhammed.
Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture. If the danish muslims don't want their countrymate to draw caricatures of the prophet, they can try to pass a law for it. Period.

I'm glad european country don't give a crap about rules that were decided by some desert folks centuries ago.

Great then, brother, it is a thirworldistan-I-am-European-The-world is-mine-I-am-the-law-I-am-high-like-an-elf syndrome again. I'll leave you in peace.

Look I'll simplify the situation for you :

Islam bans Muhammed's illustration. Danish do it in a humiliating way. Muslims freak out. Some dumb fanatics go burn the flags. Danish companies whine about dramatic decrease in sales. You feel comfortable.

We may be fighting over such an issue over and over again. Neither side seems to understand, has common sense and has the willing to give up their pathetic ways of expression.

Ironside

02-02-2006, 16:10

They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

They showed up in a debate article in GT roughly when this started, but appearently the extremists found that lumping Sweden together with Denmark on this issue was wrong and they corrected themself later on. :dizzy2: :inquisitive:

Vladimir

02-02-2006, 16:12

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man. Let's face it, he is not really in a position to criticize the press as it was the papers that revealed his unconventional financial dealings.

clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2021464,00.html)

Good link, here's my two favorite parts:

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said that the drawings reflected a growing "xenophobic tone" towards the faith in parts of the Western media.

I understand (but don't sympathize) why Europe seems to be so anti-Christian because of all the problems religion has played in the past. But hell, if these drawings are xenophobic what has Europe been doing to Christianity?

Carsten Juste: "The dark dictatorships have won," he added.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 16:13

He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

Riget. Also an american version of it was made. It's scary!

Fragony

02-02-2006, 16:20

Riget. Also an american version of it was made. It's scary!

Thanks Sjak, I only saw the english version which was quite good but you can't beat the master :2thumbsup:

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 16:22

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything.He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 16:26

In a worst case scenario, if mass boycotts takes place, will Europe not suffer more from it than ME, since they are holding a lot of oil. Of course the norwegians will only become a lot richer, nothing new.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 16:29

He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

I think you have a hard time reading between the lines.

'He's not threatening with legal action' that is a funny one mia muca.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 16:38

I think you have a hard time reading between the lines.

'He's not threatening with legal action' that is a funny one mia muca.Pray tell me, what legal action would Mr Mandelson take against European newspapers?

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 16:51

He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

I'm sorry Adrian but that man doesn't represent me or anyone else for that matter. He should keep his unelected, appointed gob shut. If any sanctions are to be imposed then let them be put in place by a democratically elected body. Not by this crony of Tonys.

Still, you are entitled to your view, as am I.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 16:53

Pray tell me, what legal action would Mr Mandelson take against European newspapers?

Legal action, what is that? He is just taking a step back, and when someone staps back he gives room for someone else.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:02

In a worst case scenario, if mass boycotts takes place, will Europe not suffer more from it than ME, since they are holding a lot of oil. Of course the Norwegians will only become a lot richer, nothing new.Do not overestimate Arab oil clout. They can play with volumes and prices, deals and concessions in order to pester Europe, but they are not in a position to shut off the flow. Their unity would soon break up as it always does. Hamas, Syria or Jordan for instance have no reserves whatsoever and they don't exactly need EU trade sanctions, frozen assets and axed subsidies right now.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 17:07

Oil is all they have. They could shut it down and go into the sandglass business but we already invented the clock.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:13

I'm sorry Adrian but that man doesn't represent me or anyone else for that matter.Yes he does. He has been appointed by democratic consent.

This is how:

The (elected) EU governments designate a Commission President
The President-designate is approved by the (elected) European Parliament
The President-designate presents the other Members of the Commission for approval by all (elected) EU governments
The (elected) European Parliament interviews each prospective Commissioner and approves the entire teamYou may not be happy with his appointment. Nonetheless Mr Mandelson represents the whole EU both legally and diplomatically.

English assassin

02-02-2006, 17:14

"I understand on one level the motivation of newspapers to stand up for freedom of speech… but they are almost bound to cause offence." He said that any other re-publication "throws petrol on the flames".

[sigh] We have to say it again and again and again, don't we? Freedom of speech isn't limited to the freedom to say things that do not cause offence.

You would have hoped Mandy knew that.

Personally I think the pictures should be reprinted in the UK and everywhere else for that matter, until a larger section of the Muslim community accepts that while they are free to consider that a cartoon of Mohammed is the most terrible sin, they are not free to impose that view on secular old me.

Also I feel the flag burning gentlemen will try to rise to the challenge and the Monty Python fan in me enjoys the thought of them scouring the West Bank looking for the flag of Tuvalu and Cornwall and Allah knows where else.

Evidently this will cause some offence. Tough. Perhaps if they would kindly mind their own business instead of poking their noses into other peoples they would go through life less offended.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:18

Legal action, what is that? He is just taking a step back, and when someone staps back he gives room for someone else.And here I was thinking Mr Mandelson was stepping forward instead of stepping back.
Is it all a matter of perspective, as they say? :mellow:

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:23

Also I feel the flag burning gentlemen will try to rise to the challenge and the Monty Python fan in me enjoys the thought of them scouring the West Bank looking for the flag of Tuvalu and Cornwall and Allah knows where else.What does Tuvalu produce? I mean, in case I need a break from the frikadeller. :sick2:

Fragony

02-02-2006, 17:25

And here I was thinking Mr Mandelson was stepping forward instead of stepping back.
Is it all a matter of perspective, as they say? :mellow:

Depends on how much you value our way of life. It is giving in to blackmail, nothing more. Trying to give in a little to keep the peace is nothing more then a invitation to do worse.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:29

Depends on how much you value our way of life. It is giving in to blackmail, nothing more. Trying to give in a little to keep the peace is nothing more then a invitation to do worse.Or an invitation to calm down and prevent worse, according to the principles of what is known in civilised circles as 'diplomacy'. For Pete's sake, a European Commissioner is a diplomat, not a xenophobic street fighter.

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 17:35

BBC has just broadcast the caricatures, nice try Mr Mandelson, to no avail.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 17:36

Or an invitation to calm down and prevent worse, according to the principles of what is known in civilised circles as 'diplomacy'. [/QUOTE]

Diplomacy has never been civilised, diplomacy is war. Trying to not offend these guys is giving in to threats of a bunch of sandland retards that found another target besides their wives for a change. Why do we always have to act like a abused wife that wonders what she did wrong?

not a xenophobic street fighter.

That's just nasty, I better report.

Viking

02-02-2006, 17:41

If newspapers all over the world print these drawings, the whole boycott problem is solved. :juggle2:

https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3753/trinityofevil1oj.jpg

http://alghurabaa.co.uk/

The world has a new axis of evil... with a sleight to the godhood.

That`s hilarious. :laugh4: Sort of...

Crazed Rabbit

02-02-2006, 17:48

It loses some of its hilarity when there's an article right below telling Muslims to kill those who insult Mohammed.

Here's some cartoons from the Arab world; the vast majority of which are much cruder and more insulting than anything the Danes printed: http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Crazed Rabbit

Viking

02-02-2006, 17:53

It loses some of its hilarity when there's an article right below telling Muslims to kill those who insult Mohammed.

It`s certainly not the first time that has happened. I do not take such threats much serious any longer.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 17:56

BBC has just broadcast the caricatures, nice try Mr Mandelson, to no avail.As if Mandelson didn't know beforehand that they would be re-published. There is nothing he can do about it, despite Fragony's suggestions that EU Commissioners have Darth Vader like powers to vaporise obstinate editors.

But what he has done is distance himself and the European Union from the policy of some papers (i.e. from the caricatures in question, not from the right to publish those caricatures). People who question Mandelson's attitude apparently have trouble understanding the concept of free speech. Free speech applies to governemts as well, and it includes their right to distance themselves from expressions they find inappropriate or unhelpful.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 18:09

despite Fragony's suggestions that EU Commissioners have Darth Vader like powers to vaporise obstinate editors.

Oh you naughty. It is the destructive idea that whatever happens, it must be our fault. I have to compliment the idea that we are just so good that perfection is just out of reach and that we soon will all be making love war, and that we just have channel all that negative energy.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 18:11

Oh you naughty. It is the destructive idea that whatever happens, it must be our fault. I have to compliment the idea that we are just so good that perfection is just out of reach and that we soon will all be making love war, and that we just have channel all that negative energy.Channelling negative energy - now there is a good description of 'diplomacy' if ever I saw one.

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 18:50

Yes he does. He has been appointed by democratic consent.

This is how:

The (elected) EU governments designate a Commission President
The President-designate is approved by the (elected) European Parliament
The President-designate presents the other Members of the Commission for approval by all (elected) EU governments
The (elected) European Parliament interviews each prospective Commissioner and approves the entire teamYou may not be happy with his appointment. Nonetheless Mr Mandelson represents the whole EU both legally and diplomatically.

So I was right. He is appointed not elected. How is that democratic? You may be happy being represented by appointee, I am not.

Duke Malcolm

02-02-2006, 18:54

What does Tuvalu produce? I mean, in case I need a break from the frikadeller. :sick2:

Mainly it is the ".tv" ending for Url website thingies, such as gm.tv and www.bbc.tv. This doubled its GDP. All boycotting muslims will stop pressing ".", "t" and "v" on their keyboards...

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 19:11

All boycotting muslims will stop pressing ".", "t" and "v" on their keyboards...Speaking of ridiculous behaviour, is anyone else surprised that nearly all protests come from governments and various religious organizations, not from the Arab street?

A couple of hundred Pakistani students protested and shouted ‘Death to Denmark!’ Big deal. There has been a street rally by women in Yemen, most of whom can’t read or write. It seems officials and warlords are only jumping on the bandwagon four months after the publication of the cartoons because some prominent Saudi cleric preached about them recently.

And what on earth is the story on these Danish Muslim clerics who toured the Arab world with a portfolio of ‘scandalous Danish depictions of the Phophet’, some of which were never published in Denmark or anywhere else?

I picked up the following from a Telegraph correspondent, but I do not read Danish so if at all possible, I would like confirmation from our Danish members.

The Danish tabloid Extra Bladet got hold of a 43-page report that Danish Muslim leaders and imams, on a tour of the Islamic world are handing out to their contacts to "explain" how offensive the cartoons are. The report contains 15 pictures instead of 12.

"The first of the three additional pictures, which are of dismal quality, shows Muhammad as a pedophile deamon, the second shows the prophet with a pigsnout and the third depicts a praying Muslim being raped by a dog. Apparently, the 12 original pictures were not deemed bad enough to convince other Muslims that Muslims in Denmark are the victims of a campaign of religious hatred. Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the 21 Danish Muslim organisations which organised the tour, explained that the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims."

"Akkari claimed he does not know the origin of the three pictures. He said they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. However, when Ekstra Bladet asked if it could talk to these Muslims, Akkari refused to reveal their identity."The Muslim Horror Picture Show, eh? Now there is an outfit I would love to sue the skirts off if I were a Dane.
So I was right. He is appointed not elected. How is that democratic? You may be happy being represented by appointee, I am not.It is a side-issue, but here goes. Your Prime Minister is appointed by Her Majesty, isn’t he? Yet he represents you. Alright, alright, the PM is elected first. But all your government ministers are appointed, not elected, yet they represent you legally and diplomatically…

In the case of the European Commission, additional checks have been introduced to make sure that any given Commissioner represents the Union as a whole, not merely his country of origin or its government. Not bad at all as a system, really.

Samurai Waki

02-02-2006, 19:18

...hmmmmm... doesn't anyone know how to laugh anymore?

Don Corleone

02-02-2006, 19:18

Adrian, the difference between the cabinet of a nation being appointed and the EU leadership being appointed is when you vote for a head of state, you have the ability to change the cabinet. Is there any vehicle of redress for Insane Apache to get rid of the head of the EU (ignorant American says who?)? Nope. Just like none of us can do a damn thing about Kofi Annan, the EU governement is non-representational and therefore, cannot be considered a democratic institution. I fail to see how you guys have gotten the ratification you have been able to muster without some say by the average Joe (or Jose) as to who is running their lives. Government by bureacracy is not Democratic (at least not in my book). People may moan about the US president & the electoral college, but at least there, voting does count. The current EU system is like the original system here in the US... each state assembly (which was mass elected) would pick 2 senators. Then the senate would pick the president. No ordinary citizen had diddly squat to say about the president.

Adrian II

02-02-2006, 19:27

Is there any vehicle of redress for Insane Apache to get rid of the head of the EU (ignorant American says who?)? Nope.The EU has no head and it is not yet a full union.

The (elected) European Parliament sent home the previous Commission. But then, the Commission President is a different animal altogether from the American President. He is appointed by our elected heads of government and approved by the European Parliament, and he carries out the broad policy outlines established by those heads of state, not his own preferred policies.

So Mendelson is working on a diplomatic approach in consultation with the European Governments, that is his job.

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 19:30

It is a side-issue, but here goes. Your Prime Minister is appointed by Her Majesty, isn’t he? Yet he represents you. Alright, alright, the PM is elected first. But all your government ministers are appointed, not elected, yet they represent you legally and diplomatically…

Are we getting a bit desperate Adrian? The party leader is elected by the party members. The Queen invites the leader of the party with the most MP's to form a government. She doesn't appoint him.

Fragony

02-02-2006, 19:37

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 19:44

Just to show that freedom of speech is double edged.

BNP (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4672792.stm)

A jury at Leeds Crown Court has cleared BNP leader Nick Griffin of two racial hatred charges and BNP activist Mark Collett of four others.

Who was it who said "I disagree with what they have to say but I shall fight to the death to allow them to say it"

'bout sums it up.

Goofball

02-02-2006, 20:26

Just to show that freedom of speech is double edged.

BNP (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4672792.stm)

Who was it who said "I disagree with what they have to say but I shall fight to the death to allow them to say it"

'bout sums it up.

Agreed. Makes a marked contrast to this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060202.wproph0202/BNStory/International/

Gaza City, Gaza Strip — Armed militants angered by cartoon drawings of the Prophet Mohammed published in European media surrounded EU offices in Gaza on Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as rage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.
Foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers began leaving Gaza as gunmen there threatened to kidnap citizens of France, Norway, Denmark and Germany unless those governments apologized for the drawings.

My God. Truly disgusting.

Louis VI the Fat

02-02-2006, 21:02

Who was it who said "I disagree with what they have to say but I shall fight to the death to allow them to say it"

'bout sums it up.That would be the great ideologue of the 'Trinity of Evil', Voltaire.

I'm almost tempted to think that France still functions like some kind of 'canary in a coal mine' for freedom of expression. France never fails to enrage those with a problem with the free flowing of ideas. No matter of what background, whenever or where ever militant intolerance rears it's ugly head, it's proponents feel an uncontrolable urge to invade, ridicule or torch France.

Fantastic.
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/ass1.gif

Sardo

02-02-2006, 21:04

Does that mean they'll be burning white flags soon?

(~;p)

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 21:07

uncalled for.

Don Corleone

02-02-2006, 21:09

That would be the great ideologue of the 'Trinity of Evil', Voltaire.

I'm almost tempted to think that France still functions like some kind of 'canary in a coal mine' for freedom of expression. France never fails to enrage those with a problem with the free flowing of ideas. No matter of what background, whenever or where ever militant intolerance rears it's ugly head, it's proponents feel an uncontrolable urge to invade, ridicule or torch France.

Fantastic.
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/ass1.gif

I'll give you that France has given the world a lot in terms of moving towards truly free speech. But as long as you have regimented secularism, and religious symbols of any type are outlawed, I don't think you can lay claim to being the bastion of free speech you once were.

As for the intolerant masses wanting to invade, ridicule and torch France, that's just because... well, you're France. :oops: Just kidding, mon ami.

rory_20_uk

02-02-2006, 21:17

I feel that although the pictures were in poor taste, I feel that for those that don't like seeing things like that DON'T LOOK AT THEM! Follow this "turn the other cheek" part of whatever religion you preach!

religion can make me not get to go to the shops, take my shoes off, restrict what I do and where I do it, and all of this I am supposed to accept without a word of protest. And if I argue a theological point again this isn't socially acceptable, but I have to put up with whatever religious conventions are thrown in my direction.

A few years ago a Roman Catholic friend of the family was amazed that my brother bought a film on DVD - just couldn't understand it. I was told that it was rude to tell her that my brother "believed it was the right thing to do" as that was going to be an impolite comment.

I am sure that it is not true of all followers of Islam, but significant sections are acting rather like Christinanity did about 500 years ago... then the weapons were not as powerful though. :sweatdrop:

~:smoking:

Louis VI the Fat

02-02-2006, 21:20

https://img463.imageshack.us/img463/5062/flagburning1rr.jpg

American flag: € 25.
Gasoline: € 2.
Cigarette lighter: € 0.75.
Burning demonstrator: Priceless!

Louis VI the Fat

02-02-2006, 21:24

religious symbols of any type are outlawedUhm, that's stretching things a bit.
French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols inschools (http://www.answers.com/topic/french-law-on-secularity-and-conspicuous-religious-symbols-in-schools)

InsaneApache

02-02-2006, 21:29

Well if you look at how they have developed their infrastructure and economies they are in the dark ages. Without the oil they would be be in a very poor condition economically.

I believe that religion (ie Islam) is holding back the renaissance that the Arab world (and others) needs, to throw off the shackles of unenlightenment and oppression.

It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was started in England. We had in place the free thinking and educational establishments that was needed to achieve this.

Don Corleone

02-02-2006, 21:30

I stand corrected, Louis. Apparently, the ban on conspicuous religious symbols is just at schools receiving state funding. But that still doesn't invalidate my point. Children are required to attend school until age 16, and unless their parents can afford the tuition at an unsubsidized school, they may not wear any conspicuous religious symbols (such as a head scarf, a yamaka or a crucifix) for the duration of that time. That is a bit repressive.

On a side note, do you guys allow Sikhs to carry daggers to school? Does that fall under religious or cultural symbol?

Vladimir

02-02-2006, 21:30

I am sure that it is not true of all followers of Islam, but significant sections are acting rather like Christinanity did about 500 years ago... then the weapons were not as powerful though. :sweatdrop:

~:smoking:

That is what I am starting to think. I'm also starting to think up comparisons between burning people at the steak and burning cities with nukes (Iran).

Sjakihata

02-02-2006, 22:45

It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was started in England. We had in place the free thinking and educational establishments that was needed to achieve this.

Well, enlightenment is only a minor factor for the industrial revolution. Much more important factors like geography, location, import/export, coal, infrastructure, political climate etc was the main reasons.

But it's all wrong, the revolution should have started in Russia, some aliens must have intervened. Oh wait, that's not the industrial revolution, but the permanent one.

rory_20_uk

02-02-2006, 22:55

And why do Sikhs carry daggers, have long hair and wear a bracelet? I think that this goes right back to times when Sikhs were actively warring with Muslims - have a weapon on hand to kill the enemy, and be different so you know who he is.

The BBC website mentions at least one reason why Islam gets so hot under the collar about symbols of Allah. And from the extremely tame language in the Koran (chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him.") someone at some point blew things out of all proportion!

It's a new century people! Adapt!!! Apparently from the Koran it's easy to come with a society where women and men are equal and killing people over cartoons is even frowned on. Re-read the text and come up with something new as opposed to following Shi'ia Law, that after all is only interpretations by men and not god.

Maybe it's just me but some religions carry far too much dogma around with them, and find debate to be completely inimnical to themselves. I think that if something can't hold up to discussion it has to be deeply flawed.

~:smoking:

Adrian II

02-03-2006, 00:43

Are we getting a bit desperate Adrian? The party leader is elected by the party members. The Queen invites the leader of the party with the most MP's to form a government. She doesn't appoint him.Seeing your lack of knowledge of your own country's political system, I understand you must be totally confused by that of the EU.

The British Prime Minister is appointed by the Queen, all other ministers are equally appointed by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.

From the Official Website of the British Monarchy (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp):

Until the end of the 17th century, British monarchs were executive monarchs - that is, they had the right to make and pass legislation. Since the beginning of the eighteenth century, the monarch has become a constitutional monarch, which means that he or she is bound by rules and conventions and remains politically impartial.

On almost all matters he or she acts on the advice of ministers. While acting constitutionally, the Sovereign retains an important political role as Head of State, formally appointing prime ministers, approving certain legislation and bestowing honours.

The Queen also has important roles to play in other organisations, including the Armed Forces and the Church of England.

Sjakihata

02-03-2006, 00:47

It's the same in Denmark, Sweden and Norway I believe. All constitutional monarchies, indeed our gorvenments is appointed by the Monarch. Of course he/she only appoints a government when they have won an ellection and formed a coalition.

Totally off-topic:

What is this, testing:
TEST

TEST

TEST

TEST

TEST

Goofball

02-03-2006, 00:52

BDC

02-03-2006, 01:01

As for the intolerant masses wanting to invade, ridicule and torch France, that's just because... well, you're France. Just kidding, mon ami.

France revels in being hated and threatened by everyone, just like Britain.

We just have a handy sea in the way and historically a formidable navy.

Louis VI the Fat

02-03-2006, 01:09

France revels in being hated and threatened by everyone, just like Britain.Somebody gets it at last!:2thumbsup:

Papewaio

02-03-2006, 01:28

EU's Trade Commissioner is a public servant of the EU?

How many public servants get elected?

How many ambassadors?

InsaneApache

02-03-2006, 01:33

Seeing your lack of knowledge of your own country's political system, I understand you must be totally confused by that of the EU.

The British Prime Minister is appointed by the Queen, all other ministers are equally appointed by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.

From the Official Website of the British Monarchy (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp):

Until the end of the 17th century, British monarchs were executive monarchs - that is, they had the right to make and pass legislation. Since the beginning of the eighteenth century, the monarch has become a constitutional monarch, which means that he or she is bound by rules and conventions and remains politically impartial.

On almost all matters he or she acts on the advice of ministers. While acting constitutionally, the Sovereign retains an important political role as Head of State, formally appointing prime ministers, approving certain legislation and bestowing honours.

The Queen also has important roles to play in other organisations, including the Armed Forces and the Church of England.

But they have to be elected first. Unlike the EU commissioners.

HAHAHA very good semantics Adrian.

Sjakihata

02-03-2006, 01:42

The point is, that is the elected leaders of EU, the Council that appoints the leader of the commssion - and they are elected. It is very representative, and I wouldnt call it democratic, it can be argued both for and against. Personally Im against the current system as well.
The problem is that no one in the commission holds any responsibility towards anyone, hence the often screw ups and closed accounting.

Papewaio

02-03-2006, 05:04

Cartoon prompts kidnap (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18026014-401,00.html)

THE rising tide of anger in the Palestinian territories over the publication of cartoons of prophet Mohammed took a sinister turn overnight with growing threats against European targets.

Gunmen in the West Bank briefly detained a German national amid the Muslim furore over the cartoons, some of which depicted the prophet as a terrorist, a militant group said.
Two masked gunmen seized the German from a hotel in the Palestinian town of Nablus "thinking he was French or Danish, and handed him over to police after realising their mistake," said a source from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

"The two men were acting to protest over the cartoons," he said.

Not nice.

Palestinian gunmen besieged the EU headquarters in the Gaza Strip and scrawled "Closed Until Apology is Made to the Muslims" on the gate to the building, which had not opened for business for fear of violence.

"European provocations have placed the offices and European churches in our line of fire," the gunmen said.

"We give the Danish, French and Norwegian governments 48 hours to present their apologies."

The governments at the centre of the confrontation between the Muslim world and Europe have said the decision to publish the cartoons was the newspapers' responsibility.

But Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei said the European governments should formally condemn the cartoons.

"What has been published was an attack on Islam and it has affected the feelings of all Muslims," he said

So we have to give up free speech in our countries or be subject to terrorist attacks?

Strike For The South

02-03-2006, 05:07

pfft no camel jockey will take my amendments. They seem to forget who there dealing with. People have a boiling point and you can only push them so far.

Proletariat

02-03-2006, 05:19

nm.

Samurai Waki

02-03-2006, 05:43

France revels in being hated and threatened by everyone, just like Britain.

We just have a handy sea in the way and historically a formidable navy.

America is getting the hang of that notion too. It's just much more fun being hated by the oppressed peoples (or should I say governments) of the world.

Papewaio

02-03-2006, 06:17

Well at least I can now see the irony.

To protest a cartoon that depects a religious leader as a terrorist. Some of the so called followers of the religious leader are going to show the rest of the world the falseness of these cartoons by the followers engaging in terrorist acts.

I wonder if they ever watched the Life of Brian and thought it was a documentary?

Meneldil

02-03-2006, 09:30

Islam bans Muhammed's illustration. Danish do it in a humiliating way. Muslims freak out. Some dumb fanatics go burn the flags. Danish companies whine about dramatic decrease in sales. You feel comfortable.

We may be fighting over such an issue over and over again. Neither side seems to understand, has common sense and has the willing to give up their pathetic ways of expression.

I don't feel comfortable. The pic showing Muhammed as a terrorist is plain silly and pointless. Obviously, the autors knew the Muslim population wouldn't like it and would protest.

Now, as silly as it was, I just don't care about the prohibition of Muhammed's pics. Some Muslims want apologies ? Fine, but I hope no one will apologise for practising freedom of speech, even in a stupid way.

Adrian II

02-03-2006, 10:17

But they have to be elected first.Indeed. But the Queen has not been elected, has she? Nor have the government ministers. Or the diplomats in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Or the members of the Higher Education Inspection. Yet they all represent you in various ways. The same principle applies to the EU Commission. They are appointed by those who have been elected to do so in your name and mine, so they represent you and me on various levels.

And like you, I often wish they had different ideas and policies, though it has to be said that Mandelson is doing a reasonably good job. Of course it involves more diplomacy and less of the merciless one-on-one of Prime Minister's Question Time.

I wonder what you would have preferred him to say instead of what he actually said. "Pfwoar, laughed me arse off at those cartoons! What are the towelheads getting worked up over? Get a loife?"

Something along those lines? :mellow:

Husar

02-03-2006, 12:56

rory_20_uk

02-03-2006, 13:55

Again - wearing headdresses. Very important in areas where sandstorms are present - even westeners put themon then, not required anywhere else in the world. So why are they still worn elsewhere? Most countries have national costumes which were what was worn many years ago and basically make you look like a prat. It seems in the Middle East it is the de rigeur to wear these all the time, even when there's not a spek of sand on the highly manicured street.

It really is a mindset that has a lot in common with North Koreans - completely fixated and completely immune to all reason.

~:smoking:

Vladimir

02-03-2006, 14:03

More goodies, sorry for the tactless link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/religion_cartoons_indonesia_dc;_ylt=AlbHudcVTOm9AHVNQ3nh3gCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

My favorite quote:

"I think this is not only about a bilateral issue between Indonesia and Denmark, this is a much more serious issue ... It involves the whole Islamic world vis-a-vis Denmark and vis-a-vis the trend of Islamophobia," [Indonesia's foreign ministry spokesman] Thamrin added.

Evidently free speach is called Islamophobia in the east.

rory_20_uk

02-03-2006, 14:06

Adrian II

02-03-2006, 14:51

Oh good they're ready to kill to defend the honour of someone who died over 1,000 years ago... does the Koran state that this is required, or is it again just dogma from previous interpretation?

~:smoking:It is a form of entertainment for a couple hundred unemployed youth and some clerics at the low end of the theological foodchain.

Sjakihata

02-03-2006, 14:55

Evidently free speach is called Islamophobia in the east.

I heard an interview with him, where he said something along these lines; While we acknowledge the concept of freedom of expression, it shall not serve as a cover to violate others on their belief.

I think that is the case on the edge, they think it shouldnt, we think it should.

Don Corleone

02-03-2006, 15:01

The Danish paper is a secular paper from a European country with a small minority muslim population. Yet, the muslim world feels this, and all other newspapers, are obligated to follow the laws of the Quran. In other words, in the muslim mind, we are all ALREADY under Sharia, regardless of whether we're muslims or not. Interesting perspective, I wonder what else I do, or do not do, on a daily basis that an Imam in Amman would take offense to and force me to stop, given the chance.

Sjakihata

02-03-2006, 16:14

That would be your normal BBQ, eating spareribs while drinking beer

CBR

02-03-2006, 16:28

Well it indeed shows the pen is mightier than the sword as some cartoons can cause an uproar like this, while cutting the heads off hostages in the name of Islam doesnt seem to do the same.

As it started with cartoons lets have another one:

https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/cbrasmussen/Afghan_Terrorist_School.jpg

CBR

Devastatin Dave

02-03-2006, 16:28

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203/ts_afp/europemediaislam

Very tasteless cartoons but at the same moment calling for riots and killing seem a little over the top over cartoons. With "art" of the Virgin Mary smeared in feces and other anti-religious and disrespectful displays such as the cartoons depicting Muhammad in a bad light, should free speech also show a little more curtesy. Not a dig on Islam, but when Christians and Jews are potrayed in this sort of disgusting way, you don't see so much violence as you do when Muslims are disrespected by secular media and society. Can someone explain to me why the phenomenom of violence in the Islamic Faith seems more prevalent in these sort of issues?

Devastatin Dave

02-03-2006, 16:31

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60620
Sorry a thread is already discussing this issue, could a mod combine my thread to it? Thanks

Proletariat

02-03-2006, 16:32

:creep:

Devastatin Dave

02-03-2006, 16:38

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60536

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60637

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60620

:burnout:
Where would i be without you my Dear Friend!!!:laugh4:

InsaneApache

02-03-2006, 17:07

I wonder what you would have preferred him to say instead of what he actually said. "Pfwoar, laughed me arse off at those cartoons! What are the towelheads getting worked up over? Get a loife?"

Something along those lines?

I objected to his assertion that the UK press should not print the cartoons. I repeat it has got nothing to do with him.

Even Tony has put some clear blue water between Downing St. and his erstwhile ally.

Downing Street tried to distance itself from the row by saying it was wrong for Tony Blair to tell the media what to do. Asked if he agreed with Peter Mandelson, the EU Trade Commissioner, who urged newspapers to think twice before publishing the cartoons, the Prime Minister’s spokesman said: “This is entirely a matter for the media organisations to decide what they ought to do within the law.”

here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2022442,00.html)

Now Jack'boot' Straw has thrown his hat into the ring. God what a bleedin' shower. They want to try growing a backbone.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has condemned the decision by some European newspapers to reproduce cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad as "disrespectful".

and here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm)

I remember the deafening silence from these fellas when Iqbal Sacranie denounced homosexuals about a month back. One has to wonder how far these politicians will fawn to the Islamists?

Adrian II

02-03-2006, 17:57

I objected to his assertion that the UK press should not print the cartoons. I repeat it has got nothing to do with him.You mean the European press. And it has to do with Mandelson, because he is controlling a trade row. As for Jack Straw, he and his government have the right to their own opinion just like everyone else.

On Sacranie's remarks you have a point. They were investigated by Police and found to be legal, but barely. However, that is not the real issue. Sacranie and some other Muslim clerics are advisers to Tony Blair, and Blair should distance himself from them as soon as possible. Bar one or two, they are an unpalatable lot and deserve no special consideration because of the people they claim to represent.

InsaneApache

02-03-2006, 18:16

However, that is not the real issue. Sacranie and some other Muslim clerics are advisers to Tony Blair, and Blair should distance himself from them as soon as possible. Bar one or two, they are an unpalatable lot and deserve no special consideration because of the people they claim to represent.

I couldn't agree more. Why Blair decided to jump into bed with that lot is a mystery to me. Most of the Muslims I know think, at best, they are self-righteous prigs and at worst traitors.

The UK is, thank God, (:laugh4: )a secular state and should remain as such.

Meneldil

02-03-2006, 19:49

It is a form of entertainment for a couple hundred unemployed youth and some clerics at the low end of the theological foodchain.

Apparently, a lot of people are manifesting now. Much more than a couple hundred at least.

Now, this is really getting funny. They are screwing their country a bit more by kicking all europeans out of there and will never get their damn silly apologies.

I stand corrected, Louis. Apparently, the ban on conspicuous religious symbols is just at schools receiving state funding. But that still doesn't invalidate my point. Children are required to attend school until age 16, and unless their parents can afford the tuition at an unsubsidized school, they may not wear any conspicuous religious symbols (such as a head scarf, a yamaka or a crucifix) for the duration of that time. That is a bit repressive.

On a side note, do you guys allow Sikhs to carry daggers to school? Does that fall under religious or cultural symbol?

That's slightly OT, but this is something French are really proud of and that will hopefully never been negociated.
I'm not sure this is a good example, but it's like the Right to bear arms in the US. I think it's silly and pointless, but I understand why so many people care about that.

Sasaki Kojiro

02-03-2006, 20:35

Viking

02-03-2006, 20:56

As I understand it, the cartoons were first printed as a "test" of free speech. All the other newspapers printed them just to show they could. That's ridiculous. Being free to make a political statement is one thing, seeing how much of a shitstorm you can start is another.

Not as ridiculous as it sounds. Shouldn`t religions have to accept to such? Yes they should, it`s free speech, and everyone can offend everyone.
Besides, I don`t think the first printings were a test, but rather the later ones; like the Norwegian printer, who said that he tested free speech.

This reminds me a lot of the Janet Jackson Nipple at the Superbowl thing. Nudity and swear words are edited out of most tv, that's not free speech. They don't allow it because it offends people...just like pictures of Mohammed offend people. I think it's a lot of fuss over some pictures just like I thought it was a lot of fuss over a nipple.

Well, we don`t have that sort of trouble in Europe.
You should have seen what the state channel served me with the warning "strong scenes". ~:eek:

(it was uncensored sex. Did probably offend many, but news is news)

The paper has the right to print the images, but it isn't right. In fact it exceptionally nasty and thoughtless. Offending millions of people just because you can gets nothing but contempt from me. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to be offensive. As long as you can offend people you have freedom of speech.

I agree, but it wouldn`t have been printed in other countries if it wasn`t for these massive, ridiculous reactions.
Jyllands Posten tested it out; wont do it again.

All in all: it`s the reactions that are ridiculous, not the printings.

Brenus

02-03-2006, 21:09

“Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. “

I think this article are against the Islamic principals and offend millions of them. How a women could equal to a man, for example. And no comments should be done about their faith, drawings or in writing. To question their faith and its applications isn’t allowed because it offences them.
So, in order to avoid terrorism and riots, these articles should be deleted from the Universal Declaration.:help:

Voltaire should be banned from printing, and Victor Hugo or other writers from GB, USA having the same approach.:help:

The debate in the French Assembly about the separation between Churches and State in 1905 should be deleted as well, because some leftist compare religions (all of them) with superstitions.

Au secours, help, upomoc !!!!:help:

Where was all this indignation, this hanger from the Muslim world when bombs exploded in Paris, Madrid, London, when the planes hit New York? Why the Imams, Ayatollahs and other Doctors of the faith didn't react and issued a fatwa against the poeple who commit and organised it?
They protest against cartoons, and not a word (or so little) against bombs? Gays hanged in Iran, women killed by stoning in Saudi Arabia, enslaved and let to die without medicaments or access to doctors in Afghanistan during the Taliban, women not allowed to drive (still Saudi Arabia) not a word…

But, caricatures, that is an offence!!!:furious3:

Devastatin Dave

02-03-2006, 21:11

Speaking of free speech...
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r399679231.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp11702031645.britain_prophet_drawings_llp117.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp12102031635.britain_prophet_drawings_llp121.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp11802031632.britain_prophet_drawings_llp118.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r3443127481.jpg
Lovely...
Maybe the cartoons hit too close to home.:no:

Dâriûsh

02-03-2006, 21:16

Impressive beards. :2thumbsup:

Viking

02-03-2006, 21:19

Impressive beards. :2thumbsup:

I, for one, admires Osamas beard(he sure looks like Santa). These ones aren`t even close to his. Wannabes...

InsaneApache

02-03-2006, 21:21

Impressive beards. :2thumbsup:

and not a 'red' one in sight. Interesting. :juggle2:

Crazed Rabbit

02-03-2006, 21:26

Brenus

02-03-2006, 21:35

My problem with all that is why it took four months before the reaction?
The second one is, if, as I believe, Islamic/Fascist Terrorism is due to a minority, why so much Muslims react against these drawings they probably never saw?:dizzy2:
Third, if the goal was to stop that kind of caricatures, it missed the point. They are now every where.:laugh4:
And it will more and more difficult to pretend that Islam means peace. It is peace if you do what I want…:embarassed:

Don Corleone

02-03-2006, 21:49

What are you talking about CR, about the UN making it illegal to criticize Islam? You can't just lay something like that out there not offer some support. Is there a UN resolution afoot or something?

Papewaio

02-03-2006, 22:07

A New Zealand newspaper has now printed the cartoons:

Paper prints Mohammed cartoons (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18035976-2,00.html)

New Zealand Federation of Islamic Associations president Javed Khan said the decision by The Dominion Post to publish the cartoons could have "serious repercussions" for New Zealand's economy.
The federation holds the national contract to certify meat slaughtered to traditional Islamic requirements.

"We won't call for a boycott, and we don't want to see one, but news gets around the world pretty quickly. Muslims will make their own decisions and as you know, they've taken drastic action against Denmark," he told the Dominion Post

Adrian II

02-03-2006, 22:10

Apparently, a lot of people are manifesting now. Much more than a couple hundred at least.I was talking about Indonesia in response to the news agency story about protests at Danish establishments there.

In Gaza and the Westbank there have been massive demonstrations with tens of thousands of people burning Danish flags or calling for vengeance against European countries. What an exercise in futility.

Still, this row clearly originates with the leadership of some nations and organisations, not with the 'Arab street' as they call it.

A.Saturnus

02-03-2006, 22:24

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man.

You´re mistaken, he has every right to do so. That's the whole point of it all.

I think it was important for the papers to show that they aren't afraid to print these. After all, if people hav the nominal right to free speech, but are scared to speak out on certain issues, that isn't really free speech.

Not important, essential!

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Saturnus/m8.jpg

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Saturnus/M1.jpg

Note: I'm not posting these to insult moslims. In fact, I consider them rather distasteful myself, but every person has a right to be distasteful. If it weren't for the irresponsible, shameful and rascist reaction of many moslim countries (or their governments), I wouldn't want to be associated with these pictures. But they have made it a duty to show them.

To all moslim fanatics: beware! We don't want a conflict. We want peace and cooperation. With a little understanding from both sides this should be possible. If you want a conflict, that's your problem. You may be ready to die for your religion, but we are ready to die to defend our freedom. If you need to know, we will see who dies harder.

Don Corleone

02-03-2006, 22:38

Amazingly, and sadly, it would appear the US government has chosen the way of appeasment: US State Department weighs in on cartoon, on side of muslims (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-02-03T202815Z_01_N03197247_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-USA.xml&rpc=22)

I'm frankly shocked by this. At least this little weasel from the State Department, Mr. Kris Cooper, refused to call on American papers not to print the cartoons.

To my muslim friends, I hope you understand to many of us here in the West, this is not about insulting Mohammed or Islam. I know just how infuriating this sort of thing can be. Hell, in the US, an artist got an endowment from the NEA to dip a crucifix into a jar of his own urine, and it was labelled 'performance art'. But silencing the obnoxious by making threats or worse is not the answer.

To Condi, and the rest of the clods at the US state department.... shame on you. :no:

rory_20_uk

02-03-2006, 22:46

I read somewhere that "virgins" is a mistranslation and that the correct translation is closer to "grapes". I bet those bombers will be pissed off that after killing a few kids they only get a plate of seedless grapes instead of Virgins.

Or concerning the pictures, perhaps there is logic in the suicide bomber's methods: by killing kids they are ensuring that there are more virgins in heaven!!! :2thumbsup:

~:smoking:

Crazed Rabbit

02-03-2006, 22:53

Gah. Europeans are standing up better to radical Islam than the US. Shame on us.:no:

@DC:
The UN starts promoting "respect for all religions and their value systems". April 2005.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006501.php

Important Quote:

Islam On Line (IOL) reported it this way: "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights adopted on Tuesday, April 12, a resolution calling for combating defamation campaigns against Islam and Muslims in the West."

Now:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20622

The UN was happy to take the case. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, wrote to the OIC: “I understand your attitude to the images that appeared in the newspaper. I find alarming any behaviors that disregard the beliefs of others. This kind of thing is unacceptable.” She announced that investigations for racism and “Islamophobia” would commence forthwith.

Refrences This:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/12/10/special_reports/religion/10_13_0212_9_05.txt

So, in a nutshell, the UN says these depictions are unaceptable and is going to investigate them. What needs to be investigated? Is there not freedom of speech? An important question to ask the UN...

Crazed Rabbit

Louis VI the Fat

02-03-2006, 23:12

Ser Clegane

02-03-2006, 23:13

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp11802031632.britain_prophet_drawings_llp118.jpg

Look ... even Fidel Castro joined the demonstration :inquisitive:

I wonder were these pics were taken - the weather doesn't look like Middle East to me. Is there an article going with the pics?

The_Doctor

02-03-2006, 23:28

I wonder were these pics were taken - the weather doesn't look like Middle East to me. Is there an article going with the pics?

Ye Olde Britannia.

Ice

02-04-2006, 01:21

No apology over Mohammad images, says Denmark

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/03/cartoon.wrap.friday.ap/index.html

Early Friday, Palestinian militants threw a bomb at a French cultural center in Gaza City, and many Palestinians began boycotting European goods, especially those from Denmark.

"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

[QUOTE]"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind them should have their heads cut off.

And so on..

I know there is already threads on this, but since this was a new Article, I felt the need to start another one. This is getting way out of hand. Over one stupid cartoon drawing in Europe, these guys are flipping out.

Divinus Arma

02-04-2006, 01:37

Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.

/edit: image removed.

Don Corleone

02-04-2006, 02:29

What a riot!:laugh4:

Next thing you know, the US and their partners in the Axis of Weasels will obstruct French-German UN-resolutions on the protection of the freedom of the west.

*pops open a bottle of Coward-Cola.*

Edit: all in good jest. http://matousmileys.free.fr/langue3.gif

Hey, we earned it. I can't think of any products named American ____ like French Fries that I could have fun with, but sadly, we deserve it all. Pathetic.

KukriKhan

02-04-2006, 03:38

Limits to free speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4680040.stm

thousands of people lined up for tickets, somebody yells: "Bomb!", 66 dead in the crush. No bomb.

Ice

02-04-2006, 05:27

haha..

Alexanderofmacedon

02-04-2006, 05:32

Yes, that is a bit amusing...

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 05:33

Gah. Europeans are standing up better to radical Islam than the US. Shame on us. :no:Shame on whom? All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries and your Axis of Weasels. That is what happens if you believe that certain nations, territories or languages embody principles and others do not. But we are not going to call a Rabbit a weasel just because he lives in the Yellow States of America.

Some French members might want to siggy this though:

"Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images or any other religious belief," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters. The United States, which before the September 11 attacks was criticized for insensitivity to the Islamic culture, has become more attuned to Muslim sensibilities.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 05:41

Limits to free speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4680040.stm

thousands of people lined up for tickets, somebody yells: "Bomb!", 66 dead in the crush. No bomb.What is the purpose of this comparison, Kukrikhan? Are you comparing the Danish cartoons to shouting 'bomb' during a tacky, famously chaotic game show in the Philippines? BTW what if there had been a bomb? Does free speech come with a disclaimer that says 'Do not use in an emergency'?

KafirChobee

02-04-2006, 05:47

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?

It is a game ... and it is being played by the powerful against those that actually believe in a God (regardless of name). It is the old: play the good against the good and they may not understand the evil spreading it.

Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).

To villafial (sp) one persons aspect of a "political cartoon" (while those employing it knowingly realise they are violating a religious precept) is in itself "bullshit".

To create a premise that we must all be equal in religion is of course the hope of Christians - especially since 60-70% is Moslim. Still, hope spring eternal and the big lie always wins (or so some Christians hope, rather than face the reality that ... GOD is God, regardless of what one wants to call him.

Someone once said the best way to divert the attention of "the people" from the realities of the "STATE" was to use religion. Religion can always be a proving factor for the state .... if 20% believe it.

Personally? I find it offensive that anyone would degrade religion. Or, justify the actions against one.

Call me open minded >>>> or liberal ..... or open toother perceptions of GOD (call the prick Zeus, but acknowledge we created him). Period. But, take in mind the offensive nature of the toons depicting Mohamad and those printing them (knowing they would offend half the world) and then one can see the truth of the offense. That it was initiated by the Dutch (whom, I always felt a bit a kin because of their liberalism - they have legalized prostitutions, got to love that?) is almost offensive, Especially since their own "terrorist ATTACKS". It almost seems that it is OK for a nations press to close its' mind to reality - if its government has.

Doesn't it?

Proves a point though. That in the supposed democratic societies - the truely wealthy hold the balance of what democracy is. They define it. They have learned to live with it and now control; it.

KukriKhan

02-04-2006, 05:53

What is the purpose of this comparison, Kukrikhan? Are you comparing the Danish cartoons to shouting 'bomb' during a tacky, famously chaotic game show in the Philippines? BTW what if there had been a bomb? Does free speech come with a disclaimer that says 'Do not use in an emergency'?

Guy yells "BOMB!" falsely in a place used to bombings. People die. Bad thing, yes?

Paper prints cartoon saying "Mohammed is a bomber!" (is that not the message of the image?). Flags burn. Fish is not bought. Worldwide media climbs on-board re-distributing the image, furthering the stampede. Bad thing?

Who's at fault? The 'free' speaker, or the stampeders? Or someone else?

Crazed Rabbit

02-04-2006, 06:15

All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries

You act as though that's a bad thing. ~D

Shame on whom?
Us. I hold no illusions about the practical nature of principles, but I thought - not illogically, considering prior actions of the US and 'Old Europe' towards certain threats - that the US would have been able to stand level with Europeans to support the fundamental principle of free speech. Alas, I am dissappointed.

Crazed Rabbit

Divinus Arma

02-04-2006, 06:16

Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.

/edit: image removed.

I was about to do this. But for the record, I don't get it. People put all kinds of insulting jokes on this forum about one anothers politics and religions.

This seems like bowing to fanaticism to me. Everyday, someone hear comments on "the religion of peace", or the crusading christians, etc. How is a personal perspective communicated through an image any different from the speech itself?

But this is just a game site, not a hardcore politics site. If I want the good stuff, I should expect to go elsewhere. Knowing the tender and gentle nature of the Org, I can't complain too much.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 06:50

Guy yells "BOMB!" falsely in a place used to bombings. People die. Bad thing, yes?Who says a guy yelled 'bomb'? And who says he did it intentionally to cause a panic? All freedom comes with responsibility. And by the way:
As well as rumours of a bomb, other witnesses said the crush began when guards refused to open the gates to the stadiumSounds to me like the organisation blames the incident on 'bomb rumours' instead of their own incompetence. Now that is an abuse of free speech. :beatnik:
Paper prints cartoon saying "Mohammed is a bomber!" (is that not the message of the image?).The message seems to be that Mohammed is a bomber in the eyes of some of his followers. And he is. Just this week the killer of Van Gogh had his day in court, and all he did was talk about rivers of blood and beheadings and revenge in the name of the Prophet. The guy is a perfect caricature himself.
Who's at fault? The 'free' speaker, or the stampeders? The stampeders are idiots who can not even burn the right flags. In other posts I wrote that it is remarkable how the Arab elites started this row, not the Arab 'street' as they call it. If people don't learn to read and write and think for themselves, they will be manipulated by clerics and political leaders.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-04-2006, 06:57

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?

Oh please what a ludicrous statement. Would they threaten to kill people over it? Remeber the picture of the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung or the upside down crucifix in a jar of urine that was displyed as art in museums around this country? Were christains upset? You bet they were. Did it come any where near the reaction the Muslims are having. Heck South Park even has Jesus as a character in the show many times and Moses has appeared as well.

Duke of Gloucester

02-04-2006, 07:02

Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).

Let's leave aside the question of whether Christians are oppressive of women, you will not find any examples of Jesus's teaching that are oppressive of women. If you read the gospels, you will, in fact, find the reverse. Probably the same is true of Mohamad.

Where Christians do oppress women, it is because the subvert rather than follow Christ's teaching.

KukriKhan

02-04-2006, 07:13

Note: we have a merged topic, so posts may seem out of sequence.

Who says a guy yelled 'bomb'? And who says he did it intentionally to cause a panic? All freedom comes with responsibility. And by the way:Sounds to me like the organisation blames the incident on 'bomb rumours' instead of their own incompetence. Now that is an abuse of free speech. :beatnik:The message seems to be that Mohammed is a bomber in the eyes of some of his followers. And he is. Just this week the killer of Van Gogh had his day in court, and all he did was talk about rivers of blood and beheadings and revenge in the name of the Prophet. The guy is a perfect caricature himself.The stampeders are idiots who can not even burn the right flags. In other posts I wrote that it is remarkable how the Arab elites started this row, not the Arab 'street' as they call it. If people don't learn to read and write and think for themselves, they will be manipulated by clerics and political leaders.

Heh. Looks like a Redleg refutation. (No offense to you or Redleg).

To be honest, I heard the initial report on BBC-World radio, where the breathless Manila station chief said: "Someone yelled 'BOMB!', and people rushed away!...". I went to BBC.co.uk and checked: sure enough, a headline. Re-checking just now, I see the byline with the reporter's name, has been dropped, and many details have been added, including an upped death-count. So, I'll put my assertion of someone yelling down to reliance on preliminary on-the-scene, non-pastuerized, non-gate-closing-details reports.

So, back 4 hours ago, I thought: "This will put a different spin on the cartoon wars thread." And I posted.

I don't dispute that we've seen silly people acting..well, silly.

My question is: Is the alarmism by both the European press and Muslim elite warranted? Calculated? Racist? Harmless? Necessary?

Is someone, or several someones gonna die over this? Is it worth it?

Divinus Arma

02-04-2006, 07:14

WITH PERMISSION OF KUKRIKHAN:

For those of you who have not seen the image that is causing all this fuss, here it is:

***WARNING: If you are Muslim, you may violate your religious requirements by viewing this image.*****

https://img483.imageshack.us/img483/931/currentmindlesspic24hq.png (https://imageshack.us)

Gawain of Orkeny

02-04-2006, 07:35

You sure thats not Bin Laden? :laugh4:

Devastatin Dave

02-04-2006, 07:47

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?
Yup I remember that. When stuff like that happens my church gets together, break out the weapons cache we have stored under the First Baptist Church and go on a grand killing spree, burning cars, rioting, and all sorts of fun "outrage" activities. Then to top it off, we capture a few artists and have a good old fashion head chopping party while screaming, "Praise Jesus!!!" over and over again drowning out the last girgling noises of our infidel victim as they choke on their own blood until that last little bit of spinal columb snapes under the sharp blade of the righteous. Oh wait, that didn't happen.:wall:

Sasaki Kojiro

02-04-2006, 08:05

Considering how the UN was (perhaps still is) considering illegalizing criticism of Islam, and how Muslims have tried to force and apology and silence criticism, I think it was important for the papers to show that they aren't afraid to print these. After all, if people have the nominal right to free speech, but are scared to speak out on certain issues, that isn't really free speech.

And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?

It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.

I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?

Byzantine Prince

02-04-2006, 08:27

Yeah well, drunkks don't care. f@@@ reeessssssiollikdion.

Crazed Rabbit

02-04-2006, 08:31

And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?

More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.

It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.

The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.

I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?

That's obscenity, not free speech. It serves no purpose save to display a disgusting spectacle. These cartoons are critiquing a religion, actual political speech.

Crazed Rabbit

Gawain of Orkeny

02-04-2006, 08:49

The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.

The artists are afraid for their lives and under police protection.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 09:24

Heh. Looks like a Redleg refutation. (No offense to you or Redleg).No offense taken. But I am still not sure we are on the same wavelength.

Bomb scares are mostly the result of bomb threats, particularly if such threats have come true recently as they have in the Philippines. If anyone is to blame for the deadly rush in front of that stadium, it is the bloody terrorists who caused the bomb scare in the Philippines the first place. That is what terrorism does, it is random violence intended to scare and cause chaos. That is its very nature. The same thing happened in Iraq not too long ago: a deadly stampede caused by a bomb scare caused by concrete threats against pilgrims. That is not a consequence of free speech, not even of its abuse. It is the very opposite of free speech.

And about the cartoon: if someone claims that Mohammed wants him to blow things up, someone else has every right to produce a cartoon of said Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. The demonstrators should be protesting against their terrorist brethren, not against the very apt and timely cartoon.

The sad thing is they are put up to it by government agitators and clerics who stand to lose everything if their population would ever exercise their right to free speech, a free flow of information, legal and political equality, etcetera. That is the issue we have to face now.

I am rather happy with the way the Danish and other European governments tackle this. We have a saying in The Neds that in delicate situations 'someone has to use their brains'. The Danes for instance are not demonstrating, shutting down embassies, calling for the beheading of such and such. Their government remains firm but moderate and open to dialogue. Like Mandelson on behalf of the EU, Rasmussen has made it clear that they will not give in on the one hand and that they will not condone the cartoons on the other hand -- which is quite right because governments are not in the business of promoting cartoons and anyone here who thinks they should needs their head examined.

If the anti-Danish boycots and agitation persist, the EU will have to reciprocate with trade sanctions where it hurts some Arab leaders and second echelon types most. Pascal Lamy, Mandelson's predecessor, has shown that the EU can be very good at this after the WTO condemned Bush punitive steal tariffs. Lamy threatened a package of 200 major and minor EU trade sanctions against the U.S. that would hurt Bush re-election most (Florida oranges, for instance) after which the steal tariffs were scuttled inside of two weeks. I have no doubt that if needed, Mandelson's staff will come up with a suitable package for Mssrs Assad or Bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. They buy most of their luxuries such as yachts, cars, jewellery and fancy consumer electronics in Europe. No more toys for the boys would be my advice. ~:)

AntiochusIII

02-04-2006, 09:45

Hey, what can I say? I expected less from the European politicians, considering their reputation for "cowardice." And they surprised me with a firm position. Hopefully this will last.

The population of Europe is, gladly, defiant to this threat to freedom of speech. Kudos to them and buy Danish cookies. I myself love Danish cookies long before they start printing Muhammed-ridiculing cartoons.

What surprises me greatly, though, is the American reaction. Wimps? WTF!!! :skull:

By the gods, it had not been a week since the State of the Union and our beloved Presiden...cy (since I'm not sure if the President does actually have a hand in formulating the policy of siding with the oversensitive party) has already betrayed his/its principles.

And I thought I should expect this kind of comforming behavior from the Dems, according to the usual Republican boasts!

I'm sorry, but you could say very bad things about my mother and I still won't have a right to start injuring you and kidnapping your family. What I can do is sue and burn a flag or two. I cannot infringe upon your liberty. Therefore, while it is easy to see the tasteless cartoons angering Muslims, the reactions of some--I dearly hope not most--of their community brought forth my utmost contempt and frustration.

The day they start banning anti-religious freedom of expression in this country, that's the day I'll start writing Rushdie's sequels.

kataphraktoi

02-04-2006, 11:25

pressing buttons have never been this easier. Kinda like tickle me elmo saying "ha ha ha ha ha apologise now!"

TinCow

02-04-2006, 15:12

I'm usually very quick to say that Islam is a good religion and that it's simply the acts of a few that are spoiling it for the rest. However, this one has really started to get to me. I have no problems with them being pissed and rioting over the cartoon. It's their right if they are offended and I can't criticize them for that. What this has had me asking though is, why aren't they this upset about the killings of innocents in the Mideast? Where are the riots for the beheadings? Where are the images of bin Laden being burned for his distortion of Islam? They seem to be picking their outrages in a rather questionable manner.

Meneldil

02-04-2006, 16:24

Looks like the French Muslims kept a pragmatic point of view on the issue. Many people condamned the pics as being unrespectful, but no manifestations with slogans such as 'France is the cancer and Islam the answer', no people crying and asking for the heads of the people who drawn the pics.
They'll apparently sue France Soir (the newspaper that released the pics) for provocation. While I hope they'll lose the trial, I think they kinda shown they aren't the brainwashed morons we can see everyday on TV, and earned my respect, for what it's worth.

More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.

Any support for that claim, or is it some random thoughts from someone who hates the UN ?

Ser Clegane

02-04-2006, 16:39

Danish embassy torched in Syria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4681294.stm)

This is getting more and more out of hands... :no:

Dâriûsh

02-04-2006, 16:45

~:eek:

This is utterly insane!

The_Doctor

02-04-2006, 16:47

This is how WW3 is going to start.:skull:

If the Syrians kill some of the Danish people in the embassy, the Danish government will have to respond. But how will they respond?

Duke Malcolm

02-04-2006, 16:48

Europe should stand its ground... Be defiant and such... Demand the arrest of the fire-raisers. If Syria fail to comply, press them further. If the refuse outright, well...

rory_20_uk

02-04-2006, 16:49

Erm, the Danish Armed forces aren't going to shatter the world as we know it...
Getting the Eu to do more than a harsh letter would be tough
NATO are supposed to be a defensive European force
The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed. :juggle2:

~:smoking:

Ser Clegane

02-04-2006, 16:50

I wonder if this mob is aware of how much disrespect they are showing to Mohammed by their actions and by showing how close to the truth the original cartoons apparently are...

master of the puppets

02-04-2006, 17:06

true.

does anyone in the country have an unaltered Quran? i just want to know if any of these people have ever read the words of muhamed along the lines of how you should not kill, respect your brothers, suicide is bad, women are your equals and should be respected, and jihad does not encompass the blowing up of oneself. or mabey they only know the Quran that has been warped by the extremests. i'm not supporting the person who wrote the cartoon, he was just a shallow idiot who crossed the line.

Lazul

02-04-2006, 17:24

Nice going you idiot mob! They torched the Danish embassy... but the thing is that the Swedish one is the same building. Morons.

This is just going to get worse I think, the right-wing nutcases all over scandinavia is protesting and getting arrested. *Mega Yawn* As I said before, humans are pathetic.

kataphraktoi

02-04-2006, 17:30

The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed.

UN talk till the cows die before they come home. The UN are toothless. Idealism is nice but not practical without some enforcement. Law and order comes from the ability to enforce..well LAW and ORDER.

Someone raised an interesting point at another website.

\WHy aren't Muslims coming out and protesting against Islam percieved as "extremist". I'm not going to say that moderate Islam is the true Islam or that extremism is true Islam, for all I know it could be either. But moderate Muslims are so quiet, so silent on this matter.

It troubles me that they don't speak out on behalf of persecuted minorities in their homelands. Anyone care about the Assyrian Holocaust in Iraq? Its not a matter of religion, the Assyrian are an ethnic group as well as a religious group. Or how about the Copts? WHo speaks on their behalf? The last time they dared to protest on a large scale was in the 9th century when the Abbasids crushed a Coptic rebellion after igniting it with discriminatory high taxes and attempted Arabisation. What about the Bahais? The only safe place for them is...ISRAEL - the most hated nation on Earth after the US where they have a magnificent edifice there. If it was in Iran, Syria or Egypt, watch that prominent building burn to the ground. What about the Parsees (Zoroastarians) who worship underground in fear? What about the Mandeans, the Sabeans, the Yazidis, the Chaldean Nestorians (who are the last few speakers of Aramaic, the language of the Arameans, Babylonians, etc, etc). WHo speaks out for those Muslims who choose to embrace another religion like Hinduism or Buddhism, how is it that moderate Muslims don't defend these "apostates" on the principle of free-will.

Do I sound peeved, I sure do.

I have Muslims who tell me Islam is a religion of peace. Then why don't they speak for those who can't defend themselves? Or does it only apply to Muslims who can't defend themselves?

However, I am sure that Muslims on the .org are disgusted by treatment of minority groups by "so-called" Muslims. And I am sure they not fanatically inclined but desire a peaceful co-existence. If they had the chance and power, they too would protest against the apathy of silence in which extremist Islam has more attention than the moderate Islam.

kataphraktoi

02-04-2006, 17:34

I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving :laugh4: :laugh4:

Gawain of Orkeny

02-04-2006, 18:10

I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving

Dont say we didnt warn ya. At least they cant blame this one on the US. Nice to see then coming to their senses. Tolerance is one thing but this is insane.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 18:19

Nice going you idiot mob! They torched the Danish embassy... but the thing is that the Swedish one is the same building. Morons.No, this is just the Syrian government's bid to claim leadership of the movement and gain some prestige among Muslims after the late Lebanese debacle. In Syria nothing happens without overt or silent approval of the regime, and since this regime is not averse to killing the occasional neighbouring prime minister it can certainly be credited with organising what happened today. Observe:

BBC News 24 quoted Jorgen Nielsen, the representative of Danish Institute in Damascus, as saying the building was empty at the time because the protest was expected. The embassy was closed on Saturday. "There were policemen there but it seems to have been a symbolic presence,'' he said.Symbolic police protection at a time of heightened tension and increased threats...

Reenk Roink

02-04-2006, 18:22

I'm going to break my self-applied abstinence and bust out a special condom to enter the backroom once more so I can give my opinion which differs from the usual "OMG Th3y R 5uCh cR42y & Vi0L3nT" I'm seeing here...

I think most people here are thinking the situation is too bad. I guess I can blame the media for constantly showing the same damn images of the Gaza riots, while ignoring the largely peaceful (though massive and outraged) elsewhere and everywhere throughout the Islamic world.

Now, we all know that there have been many more incidents of very insulting things against the Quran and Mohammed, but since this one has received a helluva coverage, of course the fires are being spread.

I have heard of no killings due to this...others apparently have, or like in the "Hamas" thread, some are just hoping to inflame the situation...:inquisitive:

The things said about the cars turned over and burned...wasn't that a non-religious but rather racially motivated incident in France last year...? :inquisitive:

What outdoes the rather disproportionatly inflated scenes of flag burnin', hate sign totin', gun shootin', (and BTW, don't you tell me you haven't heard of the "Allah must die" or "kill them all, let God sort them out" or "keep flushing the Quran" signs) is the massive peaceful boycotts against an action which is considered worse then death for most muslims and a "declaration of war" against the religion of Islam (as many see it). Those boycotts are damned effective, and it is the best way to protest an action, and they have been almost 100% successful... Good for them, I'll passively join in since my sister must be offended by this (I never buy Euro products anyway...I buy Canadian and Japanese).

Here's some more on the protests, I took the liberty of NOT choosing Al-Jazeera as some may not hold it as "fair and balanced" according to their FOX standards:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203/wl_mideast_afp/europeislammediagulf_060203182048

"If Europe stands behind those (offenders), we all will unite against them," said Qaradawi, who is considered a pan-Islamic preacher. "We say to the Europeans: We can live without you but you cannot live without us ... We can buy our goods from China, Taiwan, Malaysia and the rest of Asia," he added, in reference to the boycott campaign.

He urged worshippers to boycott the goods of the countries of newspapers which published the cartoons claiming that "every penny or dinar paid would go to these newspapers and be transformed into words or drawings mocking your religion and the Prophet."

Qardawi urged Muslim governments to demand a new UN resolution "banning insults against the prophets," pointing out that "a similar resolution protecting Jews and Judaism has been issued before."

"If the Danes say they can ridicule Jesus and his mother, can they ridicule Jews? ... No one has the right to question the number of the victims of the Holocaust, not even in a doctorate thesis," he said.

But he called upon angry Muslims not to attack their "Christian compatriots", charging that those behind the publishing of the cartoons were "neither Christians, nor believers."

Here's another one from a senior Kuwaiti iman:

"It is a (religious) duty for every Muslim to boycott countries that defame the Prophet, without waiting for a decision from the rulers," said one of Kuwait's imams, or prayer leaders.

Here's a guy who was more sad than mad:

A senior Saudi cleric delivering a sermon at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, home of the holiest sites in Islam, broke down in tears for nearly five minutes while condemning the cartoons.

I hope these boycotts continue, and I hope they set a precedent for the Arab world, that there are better ways to unite and speak out than letting a small group of wannabe mujahadeen run around yapping. None of these clerics said anything along the lines of violence, which some would be led to believe, and I know that Qaradawi is a bigshot when it comes to Islamic clerics. And on the Shite side:

Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, condemned the cartoon depictions in a posting on his website Jan. 31.

"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," al-Sistani said.

However, the cleric did not encourage any protests and he even placed some responsibility on militant Muslims for the negative way that Islam is depicted, AP reported.

He said some segments of the Muslim community were "misguided and oppressive" and that their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

This entire situation reminds of of the race riots here in the 60's. A few people decided to cause mayhem and the media tied them in with the largely peaceful boycotts of the movement...

Oh and about the UN thing: I'm quite sure anti Jewish statements are protected and they should be, as much of this recent Islamaphobia, reminisces of early 20th century anti-Semitism.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be flamed by some here...but I probably won't read those utterly worthless remarks cause I'm off to the Frontroom :flybye:.

EDIT: Oh and one last thing that I forgot to address...there have been many condemnations against beheadings/kidnappings that go on in Iraq. Just google it and see how many Muslim groups have called for Jill Carol's release...

Gawain of Orkeny

02-04-2006, 18:35

Im sorry but making a rule that no one can make an image of the prophet and expecting everyone in the rest of the world to abide by it is ridiclous. Doing violence over it is insane. There is no excuse. Talk about pushing your morals on others.

InsaneApache

02-04-2006, 18:41

A good article from Matthew Paris in the Times today.

Here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1065-2023870,00.html)

The approach is tempting. It avoids hurt. But it overlooks, in the evolution of belief, the key role played by mockery. Many faiths and ideologies achieve and maintain their predominance partly through fear. They, of course, would call it “respect”. But whatever you call it, it intimidates. The reverence, the awe — even the dread — that their gods, their KGB or their priesthoods demand and inspire among the laity are vital to the authority they wield.

But let us not duck what that “I do not believe” really means. It means I do not believe that there is one God, Allah, or that Muhammad is His Prophet. It means I do not believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, or that no man cometh to the Father except by Him. I do not believe that the Jews are God’s Chosen People, or subject to any duties different from the rest of us. It means I do not believe any living creature will be reincarnated in another life.

The man has hit the nail on the head.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 18:42

I hope these boycotts continue, and I hope they set a precedent for the Arab world, that there are better ways to unite and speak out than letting a small group of wannabe mujahadeen run around yapping.Well, boycotting countries because they respect free speech is certainly an improvement over bombing or beheading their citizens. In a linear sense, I guess exchanging the dumbest idea for the second-dumbest qualifies as progress.

Proletariat

02-04-2006, 18:43

:laugh4:

rory_20_uk

02-04-2006, 18:45

I'm with Gwain. Peaceful protests IMO are going to far. We are not far from a time when countries declared that people should be killed for what they wrote.

Won't read the replies??? Oh, OK. Again doesn't really add weight to what you write does it: a quick post followed by a holier-than-thou attitude dare anyone disagree with the itinerant prophet who has "graced" us :dizzy2:

I hate to bring it to your attention but the Western World has not been shook to its knees by the protests, passive or otherwise. If you'd further passively protest by not bothering to write it'd be even better...~:argue:

The oh so hated Europe has even managed to add a paragraph wishing the Middle East be made a nuclear weapon free zone - which is viewed by many as a slap against Israel.

~:smoking:

Reenk Roink

02-04-2006, 18:46

Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified, if an employee at a store or restaurant said something rude to me in even the slightest way, I wouldn't go back because I "respect their right to free speech".

AND

Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...

AND

11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...

And please, don't criticize my attitude, it's just matching everyone elses on this forum...besides, I don't mind disagreeing, I mind personal flaming which I have recieved when dealing with such a topic in the past...and I clearly stated that...

rory_20_uk

02-04-2006, 18:52

InsaneApache

02-04-2006, 18:52

Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified, if an employee at a store or restaurant said something rude to me in even the slightest way, I wouldn't go back because I "respect their right to free speech"....

No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.

Reenk Roink

02-04-2006, 18:55

Well, the (Muslim) Iraqis had bean doing it for a couple of decades, we thought we'd help... Oh and didn't Iran and Iraq loose a few as well in that war that lasted about a decade? I know it was our fault for not stopping them (when we'd have again become accused of unfairly getting involved in other's affairs)...

Muslims killing muslims? Must be me, as after all deaths throughout the Islamic world are directly or indirectly due to Europe / USA :rtwno:

~:smoking:

Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?

No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.

Gah, stop spreading freedom and free speech...:rolleyes2:

Duke Malcolm

02-04-2006, 18:58

Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified[QUOTE]

You notice wehn Jesus was defiled in the Jerry Springer Opera, Christians managed to keep themselves to a little protest across the road denouncing blasphemy. The protest in London demanded the deaths of the Danish and Europeans. The latter is in breach of laws against Incitement to Racial Hatred; why the constabulary failed to arrest the bearers of the placards I do not know...

[QUOTE]Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...

You're going to stop? Well done.

11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...

I doubt it'll get that far.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 18:59

A good article from Matthew Paris in the Times today.Excellent, thank you for the link. :bow:

Ser Clegane

02-04-2006, 18:59

Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.

By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.

The use of violence is not excusable at all.

rory_20_uk

02-04-2006, 19:01

And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.

There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.

It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.

When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.

~:smoking:

InsaneApache

02-04-2006, 19:08

Excellent, thank you for the link. :bow:

You are, as ever, welcome Adrian. We shall tempt you back to the path of enlightenment yet, away from the darkside of social democracy. :laugh4: :laugh4:

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 19:15

You are, as ever, welcome Adrian. We shall tempt you back to the path of enlightenment yet, away from the darkside of social democracy. :laugh4: :laugh4:Right-wing social democracy, if you please -- you know, the kind that gets things done in this old world. We are not merely enlightened, my friend, we are the light and we are extremely powerful.

*throws chicken bones in the air*

Reenk Roink

02-04-2006, 19:18

You notice wehn Jesus was defiled in the Jerry Springer Opera, Christians managed to keep themselves to a little protest across the road denouncing blasphemy. The protest in London demanded the deaths of the Danish and Europeans. The latter is in breach of laws against Incitement to Racial Hatred; why the constabulary failed to arrest the bearers of the placards I do not know...

Look at the muslims in Denmark, aside from one bomb threat what happened? Yet there have been calls to expel them from the country...

You're going to stop? Well done.

What? :confused:

I doubt it'll get that far.

Ok, we'll have to wait.

And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.

There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.

It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.

When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.

Read: "Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?"

I doubt that those suicide bombings killed more than the carpet bombs though...

Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.

By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.

The use of violence is not excusable at all.

Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...

Duke Malcolm

02-04-2006, 19:27

Look at the muslims in Denmark, aside from one bomb threat what happened? Yet there have been calls to expel them from the country...
You said that all the muslims were perfectly justified in what they were doing (if this isn't what you meant and I merely misconstrued the phrase, ignore it). A light bit of protesting is fine.

What? :confused:
You said that you'll leave the bombing of innocent civilians in Iraq to the Allied Co-alition, implying muslims will stop bombing innocent civilians in Iraq.

Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...
Perhaps Muslims should, instead of reacting so much, root out from amongst their number those who have allowed Islam to be viewed in such a light.

Adrian II

02-04-2006, 19:41

No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet.I hope none does. You have to make a stand against this kind of hysteria, can't allow decency, tolerance and understanding to rot your backbone away.

And you, my friend, should realise you are on the side of potentates who couldn't care less who gets bombed by whom as long as they can cling to power. My favourite Middle East blog made the point rather eloquently:

Just when you thought the hypocrisy of Middle Eastern despots couldn't become any more extreme, the region's potentates once again have managed to outdo themselves. We refer of course to the growing broohaha over a Danish newspaper's publication of cartoons featuring satiric depictions of Muhammad. Better to concentrate your efforts on developing education, economic infrastructure, protecting human rights, and engendering genuine democracy and social equity at home than to wage Jihad against Danish cartoons.

The "cartoon crisis" has suddenly become a Satanic Verses redux for 2006 - and the dictators seem desperate to get in on the act. In a telling campaign that reflects their worldview, they are boycotting the government of Denmark. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have announced a boycott of Danish goods. Qaddafi has closed Libya's embassy in Denmark.

Denmark, presumably, will be able to withstand the onslaught, and passions will likely soon subside, at least for a while. But it is the Middle East that will retain the permanent damage.

Link (http://www.ordoesitexplode.com)

TinCow

02-04-2006, 19:50

I doubt that those suicide bombings killed more than the carpet bombs though...

Just because we did it before doesn't make it right now.

Xiahou

02-04-2006, 21:41

Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.Totally agree here. They had every right to be offended and upset.

By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.Boycotts are arguably misguided- but, I say it's still their right to do so.

The use of violence is not excusable at all.Again I agree.

Also, expecting the Danish government to apologize for something that a privately owned newspaper does is totally absurd. I have no doubt that the drawings were extremely offensive to many muslims. I also felt that when other papers reprinted to cartoons for little more reason than just to prove they could, they were being needlessly antagonistic. However, when people go around kidnapping people and burning down embassies because someone offended them, they quickly start to lose any sympathies I had for their position.

solypsist

02-04-2006, 22:20

Are the photos we're seeing in the press indicative of the protests as a whole or just the hysterical parts that the media has latched upon?

Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?

I don't know enough about the relationship between Europeans as a whole and the Muslim world to reach any conclusions, but my initial reaction is that this is largely a bunch of religious people overreacting and trying to silence their critics.

Viking

02-04-2006, 22:37

Are the photos we're seeing in the press indicative of the protests as a whole or just the hysterical parts that the media has latched upon?

Burnt Danish and Norwegian embassies, stormed embassy in Indonesia, pissed muslims everywhere, including in Euorpean countries; boycott actions.

Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?

No. Denmark is still the most hated.

Red Peasant

02-05-2006, 01:15

Burnt Danish and Norwegian embassies, stormed embassy in Indonesia.

This is intolerable, the EU should impose sanctions on these countries immediately, and an end to aid to the Palestines until they see reason.

The_Doctor

02-05-2006, 01:19

This whole thing is getting out of control.

And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.

The_Emperor

02-05-2006, 01:37

This whole thing is getting out of control.

And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.

Got that right. remains to be seen what wll happen over Iran though, probably just some token sanctions and thats it.

InsaneApache

02-05-2006, 01:45

Got that right. remains to be seen what wll happen over Iran though, probably just some token sanctions and thats it.

I fear that is not the case.

Soulforged

02-05-2006, 01:55

How many things are trivialized in the name of faith?
Well a similar, tough relative minor, event took place here a while ago. The artist León Ferrari, portrayed the image of Jesus in various ways, one of them particualary offende the archbishop who immediatly fired up the hearts of the Christian mass. The mob reached the museum and basically blocked it. At one point they even entered and started destroying many art pieces inside. The result of all this: the government banned this artwork. Yes intolerance won, and I presume this will not be different. LINK (http://www.diariodecuyo.com.ar/home/new_noticia.php?noticia_id=74181)to the history (in spanish).

In a society the people tend to forget faster about their responsabilities towards their fellow man and to respect their wishes and their opinions, than they forget their own conformity and the equivocal superiority of their own believes. In the name of that a simple act of expression generates havoc. It's incredible.

I'm of the opinion that this people can be as offended as they want to (many people are offended for many things, it doesn't matter how ridicolous or menial it seems) but taking this step is totally outrageous. It shouldn't, under any ocassion be banned or forbidden or restricted in anyway, the government or the private entity shouldn't apolagize, but reafirm their actitudes, and anyone who continues with this meaningless rebellion should be dealed accordingly.

I'll not give more turns, I'll try to be direct. Blame faith for this. This people (and I'm talking about religious people, truly faithful people) have the image of their idols in an altar, above all that's true, real and pure, as the human life, the freedom and why not social estability. When everybody start to respect the man, more than they respect their personal feelings or their idols or ideals, then we can talk about citizenship.

rory_20_uk

02-05-2006, 11:09

I think the best point is that here in Europe people can have either point of view. They can agree or they can protest. As long as all are peaceful that is fine.

If I were to go to any of these Islamic countries and state a point of view I'd probably be lynched - and would the government give an apology? :laugh4:

The Bible also has strong things to say about Idolatry. Doesn't mean that many christians use them, and as far as I am aware in the 21st Century none get destroyed for being displayed.

Religion should be a force of good. If it clearly fails to be so, it needs to be fundamentally altered.

Oh, and I agree that any country that decided to disrespect a european national flag should have all aid immedaitely cut off, and preferably all loans called in to boot.

I view the burning of my national flag with the same passion and utter loathing of the perpotrators as muslims appear to view those cartoons. I'd not advocate casting the first stone, but I don't see why we need to wait for the second before showing exactly what privations can be inflicted when the EU flexes its monetry muscles. :furious3:

~:smoking:

Kanamori

02-05-2006, 14:21

Brenus

02-05-2006, 14:56

Did you notice that the Vatican agreed with the Mullahs? Freedom of speech is a danger to all Religions.

That is the problem when people thing they got the TRUTH. YOU are not allowed to think differently (from Torquemada to Osama Bin Laden).
But, what is worried mw is the mass protest. Moderate Muslims tried for years to convince the world that the Islamic fascist are not the representative of the real Islam, and guess what happened; Crowds all around the world demonstrated against a picture.:embarassed:

If we have to respect all faith and beliefs, to respect all superstitions, we won’t be able to live because most of them are in contradiction. Monotheism against polytheism, UFO, Paganism, atheism, spirits and shamanism, all are beliefs or convictions. If I say I am Atheist, I offend all the rest, but I say I am Pagan, I offend the others.:sweatdrop:

Adrian II

02-05-2006, 15:01

This has gotten terribly ironic. "How dare you accuse us of only being able to solve problems through violence. We'll show them by burning their embassies and threatening their lives....":help:Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself. I have followed this row for three days and I find it increasingly difficult to even take the issue serious anymore.

Here we have a circle of countries with mostly semi-literate inhabitants ruled by psychopaths and tyrants, and they decide to boycott (and burn the flags, and threaten the citizens of) a free, democratic country over a few cartoons.

Hello!

Economic inequality; war in Iraq; Isabelle Adjani's breasts -- those are real issues. Some Muslims are starting to look like their own cartoon. Seeing how the historic Mohammed used to be ahead of his time in many ways, he must be turning in his grave like a one-man helicopter these days.
We should just remove all dealings with them and start selling some better airplanes to Israel.Nah, they can crush any Muslim country any time they want, they don't need more planes. I was thinking: can't we somehow bottle a European sense of humour, irony and self-respect and ship it to, say, Washington? As an experiment? And if that works and they find words to defend free speech over there, maybe we can send the next one to Jordan or Egypt, and so on? Easy, easy, catchy zombie?

Brenus

02-05-2006, 15:37

“Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself.” I got the same feeling. But on another way: I am concerned (in UN meaning) how was my first reaction. More kind of let’s nuke all these people, or at least, let’s them died in their own ignorance. And THAT is the danger of extremists; they push you to be like them. I saw that in Bosnia. The ultra Nationalists got their goal. Instead to find a multi-cultural peace, we created mini-states.:help:

Now, the speech of Koffi Anan was a shame.:furious3:
When Zola published “J’accuse” in the Aurore Newspaper, he offended the French Nation of the time. He went against the French Feeling (not all, but at least a huge proportion of them), as Voltaire did for Callas.
When the French Revolution stated that all men are equal, that also offended a lot of people and Counties (all Europe, basically) where the public order was still based on St Augustan distinction and order (those who pray, those who fight and those who work).

I am not concerned about what happened in Palestine; I would agree it is more about finally something to do (even if it’s implicated to bite the hand which fed and still feed you). I am more concerned about the Muslim reaction in European Countries. Freedom of speech is one the base of democracy. That implies sometime to heard things we don’t like, which hurt feelings.
The Muslims who felt humiliated or hurt by the drawing could and should have asked, as the laws give them right, a right of answer… But, no, they went for the violence.
At what scared me is I was ready to answer by violence. For a short time, they transform me in a vindictive man.:sweatdrop:

Why these extremists wanted to destroy Islam, I have no idea. It is a fight they can’t win. I remember in France after the bombing and London, last year, when all the politics tried and succeeded to calm down the retaliation desire of the populations against innocent Muslims.
And what happened: the actual Muslim population, living in the same countries, are now calling to kill me, or at least think that I am a legitimate target.:wall:

The Black Ship

02-05-2006, 15:37

I was wondering, if embassies in Saudi get overrun (ala Syria and Lebanon) would Britian rethink the Eurofighter sale? It's alot of money.

rory_20_uk

02-05-2006, 16:00

The Sauds wouldn't want to loose the planes either. They'd probably get the police to shoot the crowds.

Muslims more than most others seem to feel that they are deserving of a "it's our religion which supercedes all local laws and conventions" card. If you want the best in democratic free speech and where you have to get on with your neighbour even when he dares laugh at a cartoon. If you prefer the "cut hands off for placing a book on the ground" there are loads of other countries that would suit you. Please leave - in a democracy that is allowed.

~:smoking:

Adrian II

02-05-2006, 16:02

I got the same feeling. But on another way: what scared me is I was ready to answer by violence.There is no need for a violent answer. People who burn an empty embassy in downtown Damascus or storm the Danish consulate in Djakarta bearing placards that call for murder and beheading are their own caricature, you know? If this goes on we won't need cartoons any more.
And what happened: the actual Muslim population, living in the same countries, are now calling to kill me, or at least think that I am a legitimate target.:wall:Well, the larger British and French Muslim organisations actually declared against all violence. And the largest British Muslim body yesterday immediately called for the arrest of the group of London Muslims who briefly demonstrated demanding another '7/7' and '9/11'.

Most European Muslims have behaved normally by European standards, and as usual many didn't want to be involved in the first place since they have their own lives and other more important issues to look after. It is only the lunatic fringe that takes to the street.

Sjakihata

02-05-2006, 16:42

As Adrian wisely said earlier, it is the unemployed, un-educated, bored lowlives that are causing most of the trouble - organized by fanatics.

Viking

02-05-2006, 19:16

This is intolerable, the EU should impose sanctions on these countries immediately, and an end to aid to the Palestines until they see reason.

Norway is taking the burnt embassy case to the UN. Let`s see how that works out..

Red Peasant

02-05-2006, 19:53

Norway is taking the burnt embassy case to the UN. Let`s see how that works out..

I feel that the UN will do nothing in this case, as it has no economic or technological clout of its own other than that which it is allowed by its disparate members. The EU must take the lead if it sees itself as a credible entity, or embryonic state. In fact, this is one thing that will unite almost all Europeans and if the EU can't harness that feeling then it cannot pretend to represent the peoples of Europe, or not in its present form at least.

edit. this concerns all European states, even Norway which is not a member of the EU.

Crazed Rabbit

02-05-2006, 20:26

Yes, the lunatics who threaten are absurd, or would be if they weren't so deadly serious. But thier threats are not idle ones; just ask Theo Van Gogh.
The essential fact is that it doesn't matter how thoroughly they make caricatures of themselves if they accomplish their goal - making people afraid to criticise Islam. What does it matter how crazy or foolish they look if people are too afraid to speak about it or ridicule them? What is the difference between silence though fear and laws against criticism of Islam?

Many elites have tried to pass this off not printing the cartoons or doing anything else to anger Muslims as 'sensitivity'. But as Mark Steyn brillantly said (http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn05.html):

One day the British foreign secretary will wake up and discover that, in practice, there's very little difference between living under Exquisitely Refined Multicultural Sensitivity and Sharia. As a famously sensitive Dane once put it, "To be or not to be, that is the question."

Europe needs to demonstrate that they are not afraid to print, and continue printing, these cartoons or other things that question Islam. European leaders need to protect their citizens and make them safe from thuggish retaliation.

Crazed Rabbit

P.S. About the 'Vatican' statement:
It was made by a Cardinal, who is a retired diplomat. He does not reflect the official position of the Vatican.

Cardinal Achille Silvestrini said:
"Freedom is a great virtue but it must be shared and it must not be unilateral. Freedom of satire that offends the feelings of others becomes an abuse, and here we are talking about nothing less than the feelings of entire peoples who have seen their supreme symbols affected."

rory_20_uk

02-05-2006, 20:51

I want to live in a multiracial but not multicultural society. There is one culture: British. It alters though the years as those that make up Britain change.

BUT we speak English here. If you don't, then why are you here? There IMO are certain things that it is up to the individual to tolerate of the state, or they can leave. Again, these tenants alter slowly over time, but I feel that we are already pandering to too large degree to accommodate those that in the main have chosen to be in this country. The ports are open - please leave to a country that better suits your own views, or stay if you truely wish to do so.

~:smoking:

Papewaio

02-05-2006, 21:08

As Adrian wisely said earlier, it is the unemployed, un-educated, bored lowlives that are causing most of the trouble - organized by fanatics.

In Indonesia they rent a crowd... t-shirt with slogans mass produced, banners, posters... the guys get little more then a couple of dollars and a free lunch.

Red Peasant

02-05-2006, 21:16

P.S. About the 'Vatican' statement:
It was made by a Cardinal, who is a retired diplomat. He does not reflect the official position of the Vatican.

It may not be 'official' but we have seen lots of senior representatives of the major religions over here (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, etc, etc, blah, blah) wringing their hands over the 'respect' and 'rights' due to religions. One should not criticize religion is the message that I am picking up from all of them. Sanctimonious tripe.
I'm British, and if I want to poke fun at religion, then I'll bloody well do so. These Danish cartoons were making a satirical point: Mohammed was a prophet of peace, yet many of his present followers condone mass-murder and genocide, with throat-cutting being a credible religious policy. They are sick, and their so-called prophet did not preach this message as far as I can tell. If we can't criticize religion through humour and satirical mockery, then when can we do so? Should it be strictly verboten, censored, off-limits? I don't think so.

Gawain of Orkeny

02-05-2006, 21:20

Mohammed was a prophet of peace

Thats very debatable and a big problem with Islam. It is too easliy seen the other way both by Muslims and others.

Viking

02-05-2006, 21:22

I feel that the UN will do nothing in this case, as it has no economic or technological clout of its own other than that which it is allowed by its disparate members. The EU must take the lead if it sees itself as a credible entity, or embryonic state. In fact, this is one thing that will unite almost all Europeans and if the EU can't harness that feeling then it cannot pretend to represent the peoples of Europe, or not in its present form at least.

edit. this concerns all European states, even Norway which is not a member of the EU.

Yeah, I think EU is the way to go. We`re also demanding money for the damage(burnt down, that is) they did to our embassy, though that is of course only for the sake of principle.

Not sure what Denmark is doing with this.

rory_20_uk

02-05-2006, 21:27

I thought that the Koran also states "if you can not convert by the word, convert by the sword". For a peaceful prophet there was one hell of a lot of warfare going on in his name when he surfaced.

Not that Islam is unique. Christ apparently was there for peace, but still we got to the stage of killing people so they'd not sin - making murder and indeed genocide an act of kindness. :wall:

~smoking:

solypsist

02-05-2006, 23:07

Interesting editorial from some guy over at Kos who is living in the mid-east:

The most recent Hajj occurred during the first half of January 2006, precisely when the "outrage" over the Danish cartoons began in earnest. There were a number of stampedes, called "tragedies" in the press, during the Hajj which killed several hundred pilgrims. I say "tragedies" in quotation marks because there have been similar "tragedies" during the Hajj and each time, the Saudi government promises to improve security and facilitation of movement to avoid these. Over 251 pilgrims were killed during the 2004 Hajj alone in the same area as the one that killed 350 pilgrims in 2006. These were not unavoidable accidents, they were the results of poor planning by the Saudi government.

And while the deaths of these pilgrims was a mere blip on the traditional western media's radar, it was a huge story in the Muslim world. Most of the pilgrims who were killed came from poorer countries such as Pakistan, where the Hajj is a very big story. Even the most objective news stories were suddenly casting Saudi Arabia in a very bad light and they decided to do something about it.

Their plan was to go on a major offensive against the Danish cartoons. The 350 pilgrims were killed on January 12 and soon after, Saudi newspapers (which are all controlled by the state) began running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons. The Saudi government asked for a formal apology from Denmark. When that was not forthcoming, they began calling for world-wide protests. After two weeks of this, the Libyans decided to close their embassy in Denmark. Then there was an attack on the Danish embassy in Indonesia. And that was followed by attacks on the embassies in Syria and then Lebanon.

Many European papers, including the right-wing German Springer media group, fanned the flames by reprinting the cartoons. And now you have the situation we are in today, with lots of video footage of angry crowds and the storming of embassies and calls for boycotts of Danish and European products.

Saudi Arabia's influence on the Sunni Muslim world is incalculable. The sermons from high-ranking Muslim clerics are read and studied by Muslims around the world, who in turn give sermons to their local congregations. While the Saudis do not have direct control of the world's Sunni flocks, their influence is similar somewhat to the Pope's pronouncements and the sermons that Catholic priests give to their flocks the following Sundays. Saudi Arabia also finances a number of Muslim "study centers", where all the literature and material is provided by the Saudi government, filled with hatred for Jews and other extremely racist material. For them to promote an idea based on religion, including "outrage" at some cartoons published months earlier, is standard operating procedure.