View Full Version : American Black history month...
Devastatin Dave
02-02-2006, 17:54
I don't think there should be a month that celebrates the achievements of Blacks in the United States. I believe that American history, which involves all races and cultures, should be taught and celebrated and be all inclussive. In a way, if I was black, I would find it insulting as an American that is black, that my achievements of my ancestors only be celebrated for one month. To achieve true equality, we need to stop deviding ourselves, as Americans, between race and religious view points. Black history month is only contributing the "us against them" between Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc going both ways. What's your opinion? Apparently African American Morgan Freedman agrees with me. I'm sure there are some here that would dissagree with me, but I wonder if they truelly believe that equality can truelly be achieved through deviding thoughts, race, and beliefs in a ttempt to make everything "fair"?
Vladimir
02-02-2006, 17:57
I'm taking bets on how fast this is going to be locked. It is a bit of an irony though that it is the shortest month in the year.
Sjakihata
02-02-2006, 17:58
Im not, because Dev Dave has a point. I agree. But if the blacks in US want a self celebrating day, then be my guest.
Ser Clegane
02-02-2006, 18:01
To achieve true equality, we need to stop deviding ourselves, as Americans, between race and religious view points.
Actually I completely agree with this statement ~:)
Can I have an all white history day? If I was black this kind of stuff would offend me. It's like saying that you are less then others. Why bring gifts if it isn't someones birthday.
Adrian II
02-02-2006, 18:07
To achieve true equality, we need to stop deviding ourselves, as Americans, between race and religious view points. Black history month is only contributing the "us against them" between Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc going both ways. What's your opinion?Oh, I totally agree. And this as all the more reason to get rid of the official Christmas trees and Presidential Christmas greetings.
Oh, I totally agree. And this as all the more reason to get rid of the official Christmas trees and Presidential Christmas greetings.
Christmas is today more a cliche than a celebration of the birth of Jesus. Christmas trees doesn`t have much to do with religion either, and are more a part of western culture. Let`s keep it that way.
Devastatin Dave
02-02-2006, 18:14
Can I have an all white history day? If I was black this kind of stuff would offend me. It's like saying that you are less then others. Why bring gifts if it isn't someones birthday.
I would be as much if not more disgusted for a "white" history month. The achievements of Blacks throughout the world should be celebrated not for one month but throughout the year as well as achievements of all other Americans.
European friends... Do you guys have months designated for certain achievements of different races? I see this as a by product of a sort of modern day segregation. Very sad, but if someone could find me where I'm arong, I'd love to see another point of view.
I would be as much if not more disgusted for a "white" history month. The achievements of Blacks throughout the world should be celebrated not for one month but throughout the year as well as achievements of all other Americans.
European friends... Do you guys have months designated for certain achievements of different races? I see this as a by product of a sort of modern day segregation. Very sad, but if someone could find me where I'm arong, I'd love to see another point of view.
No, just the celebrations of international ties, like the independance of Indonesia for example. Why make it racial, I always wondered what why the hell there should be a black version of miss universe(?), if a black women is beautifull she is beautifull. You are right that is is in fact (positive, so even worse) segregation, but it america is in no way unique when it comes to this. Some 'races' aren't doing very well in Europe, and we also feel the need to do something special fo them. Complete bs if you ask me, succeed or fail, when someone succeeds, don't rob him of his sense of ackomplishment.
Marcellus
02-02-2006, 18:51
European friends... Do you guys have months designated for certain achievements of different races? I see this as a by product of a sort of modern day segregation. Very sad, but if someone could find me where I'm arong, I'd love to see another point of view.
We have Black History Month in October. I agree with you, I don't see why one particular group should be separated for celebration of their history for one month of the year only.
Of course the usefulness of such an exercise is debatable unless there is a clear marginalisation of black Americans in the teaching of American history. I very much doubt that there is any deliberate bias in this sense any more, although sadly the historical footprint of a poorly educated minority underclass, no matter the grouping, is a limiting factor. This alone may justify the official highlighting of the presence of this group in the historical makeup of the States, in the same way in which one might shine light on the lives of Russian peasants or Britons working in those dark satanic mills. Similar policies have been used in the teaching of, for want of a better term, women's history. Is it devisive? It could be if designed to be, it depends so much on the idividual projects involved. I would say that in general it is no more devisive than references to "black Americans" or "African Americans". Are they not simply Americans? It seems not.
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:00
Oh, I totally agree. And this as all the more reason to get rid of the official Christmas trees and Presidential Christmas greetings.
You do know that it's now officially a 'holiday tree' and warmest 'holiday' greetings. I don't think the government is allowed to use the word Christmas anywhere.
Samurai Waki
02-02-2006, 19:04
I suppose if we had a White History month it would considered racist, even though white people have had a huge impact on American Culture. If the Blacks get a history, then I think all races should get a history month, because every race has contributed well, everything we know and stand for. I think people put waaaaaaaaay to much emphasis on skin colour, and not enough emphasis on the individual or culture. If George Washington Carver was a white guy, I wonder if he'd get any recognition at all. Lol.
Are they not simply Americans? It seems not.
I think that the sad truth is that we are in fact all racists; when I get along with a black person I think what a nice black person. Not because I want to, I just do. People are social beings, you can't force nature. We are all humans but we are also different species of humans, dark skin isn't another type of white flesh. Positive discrimination is violently forcing a process that needs a whole lot of time.
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:11
As for the purposes of this topic, I would agree completely. What keeps me from signing on to an end of Black History Month is that even with it, your average college educated American cannot name the accomplishments of a single black scientist beyond George Washington Carver or a black educator other than Booker T. Washington.
Look, I agree with the theory, that so long as a Black History Month exists, we cannot claim equality exists. But I also believe that until white and black (for that matter) America catch up on learning about the accomplishments of black America, it serves a purpose.
Wow, did I actually just say all that? :dizzy2: Seriously, before you guys jump down my throat, Dave/Gawain, ask even your veteran buddies who the Tuskegee Airmen were. Ask your average Civil War enthusiast who the 54th Massachussets were, and what they did. Until then, we may not like it, but we don't know our history.
Wow, did I actually just say all that? :dizzy2: Seriously, before you guys jump down my throat, Dave/Gawain, ask even your veteran buddies who the Tuskegee Airmen were. Ask your average Civil War enthusiast who the 54th Massachussets were, and what they did. Until then, we may not like it, but we don't know our history.
The Majority might remember that a movie was made based upon the events and units that you mentioned.
Better yet how many Americans know what regiments (there were two) consisted of Buffalo Soldiers and where did they serve.
However most Americans can't name but two or three white scientists so the precentage equality by population is about the same.
Samurai Waki
02-02-2006, 19:22
Most American's don't even know what the Stars and Stripes stand for, I think in all fairness, no matter how much we try to educate people in our history, theres still going to be a proposterous level of ignorance.
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:31
You guys raise a valid point. I guess I'm assuming ignorance of black history is ignorance of 'black' history, not just ignorance of history in general. If that's the case, then yes, I'd certainly agree. Apportioning special considerations to a protected class will always make the protected class a separate entity, regardless of how good the intentions are.
As for the purposes of this topic, I would agree completely. What keeps me from signing on to an end of Black History Month is that even with it, your average college educated American cannot name the accomplishments of a single black scientist beyond George Washington Carver or a black educator other than Booker T. Washington.
Look, I agree with the theory, that so long as a Black History Month exists, we cannot claim equality exists. But I also believe that until white and black (for that matter) America catch up on learning about the accomplishments of black America, it serves a purpose.
Wow, did I actually just say all that? :dizzy2: Seriously, before you guys jump down my throat, Dave/Gawain, ask even your veteran buddies who the Tuskegee Airmen were. Ask your average Civil War enthusiast who the 54th Massachussets were, and what they did. Until then, we may not like it, but we don't know our history.
It's like the alignment of pluto and haleys comet - I completely agree!
:laugh4:
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:41
To paraphrase The Ring... Before you die, you agree with Idaho. I guess I have 24 hours before some little chicky with bad hair and a worse attitude arrives to do me in. :help:
Major Robert Dump
02-02-2006, 19:42
My friend Marty's dad is black and his mom is white, so he only celebrates to the 15th
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:46
If Marty's dad was white and his mom black, would he celebrate from the 15th to the 28th? Wait, those relationships don't really happen...
InsaneApache
02-02-2006, 19:48
Lol
Major Robert Dump
02-02-2006, 19:48
Sure they do, its just not as common as the vice versa.
Goofball
02-02-2006, 19:58
I don't think there should be a month that celebrates the achievements of Blacks in the United States. I believe that American history, which involves all races and cultures, should be taught and celebrated and be all inclussive. In a way, if I was black, I would find it insulting as an American that is black, that my achievements of my ancestors only be celebrated for one month. To achieve true equality, we need to stop deviding ourselves, as Americans, between race and religious view points. Black history month is only contributing the "us against them" between Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc going both ways. What's your opinion? Apparently African American Morgan Freedman agrees with me. I'm sure there are some here that would dissagree with me, but I wonder if they truelly believe that equality can truelly be achieved through deviding thoughts, race, and beliefs in a ttempt to make everything "fair"?
Is Black History Month some sort of government sponsored event in the U.S. and are any special considerations (i.e. paid holidays) given to African Americans during this period, or is Black History Month simply a time when African Americans celebrate their achievements and reflect upon what they think they need to do in the future?
If the former is the case, then I would agree with you Dave. But if the latter is the case, then I say let them have it. I don't see how celebrating achievements of blacks can be divisive, unless they are going out of the way to exclude non-blacks (i.e. "No, you can't have a cupcake, my mom sent me to school with these cupcakes for the black kids only because it's Black History Month.").
It only becomes an "us against them" situation if we choose to make it so. On the other hand, if we take the attitude that we (as non-blacks) acknowledge the fact that because of having had to overcome racism and prejudice, the achievements of African-Americans are all the more admirable, then there should be no problem.
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 19:59
I've had 3 serious relationships with black women in my life (1 in high school and 2 in college). All three told me the exact same thing, almost verbatim like they got it from a book:
"No matter how happy I am and how much I care for you, this relationship can never go anywhere. My family would never forgive me if I married a white guy".
Black women will date white men, they'll fall in love with them, hold long romances, you name it. But when it's time for them to get serious and settle down, they'll always break it off. It's very, very rare to see black women starting families with white men. Part of this is due to family pressures, and part of it is due to a cultural belief that regardless of how poorly black men are keeping up their end of the bargain, the black race depends on not having mixed race children. It's not that uncommon to see a black girl and a white guy, but I can't tell you the last time I saw said couple with children. Lenny Kravitz is the only example I can think of, and actually, his Dad is Jewish.
InsaneApache
02-02-2006, 20:05
My Dad married an African-American, I know I've said it before, but she told him that they couldn't live in the (Southern) USA as a mixed couple. Some of the stories she has related to me really opened my eyes. As a white Anglo-Saxon Englishman I had no idea of how repression can be either blatent or subtle. It was an education for me.
Ser Clegane
02-02-2006, 20:07
"No matter how happy I am and how much I care for you, this relationship can never go anywhere. My family would never forgive me if I married a white guy".
Is it very different the other way around (i.e., how do many "white" parents react when the daughter brings home the "black" guy and tells them that they want to marry)?
EDIT: and that questions is not necessarily exclusively directed at US patrons, I know that my mother in law would very likely have freaked out, if my wife had brought home a black guy (she is one of these "I am not racist, but I don't think people are meant to mix" persons)
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 20:12
Is it very different the other way around (i.e., how do many "white" parents react when the daughter brings home the "black" guy and tells them that they want to marry)?
Twenty five years ago, when I was a kid, it would have been as bad, if not worse. Nowadays, though, I think most of white America at least pays lip service to racial and gender equality and the idea that 'we need to keep our women pure and with their own kind' is very, very low brow among white America. I'm not saying deep down inside, white parents wouldn't feel that way necessarily, but they'd probably be much less likely to express it and would force themselves to accept their new son-in-law. Not much better, but some, and heading in the right direction.
Goofball
02-02-2006, 20:13
I've had 3 serious relationships with black women in my life (1 in high school and 2 in college). All three told me the exact same thing, almost verbatim like they got it from a book:
"No matter how happy I am and how much I care for you, this relationship can never go anywhere. My family would never forgive me if I married a white guy".
The three Black women I dated will date white men, they'll fall in love with them, hold long romances, you name it. But when it's time for them to get serious and settle down, they'll always break it off. It's very, very rare to see black women starting families with white men. Part of this is due to family pressures, and part of it is due to a cultural belief that regardless of how poorly black men are keeping up their end of the bargain, the black race depends on not having mixed race children. It's not that uncommon to see a black girl and a white guy, but I can't tell you the last time I saw said couple with children. Lenny Kravitz is the only example I can think of, and actually, his Dad is Jewish.
Fixed.
Although I don't totally discount the conclusion you have drawn (i.e. mixed couples are rare in the US) from your anecdotal evidence, I think you need to remember that it is just that: anecdotal. And I also disagree with your conclusion that this lack of mixed couples stems from some need among blacks to keep their race pure. I think it probably has more to do with the fact that they are just doing what all people do naturally when choosing a mate: finding somebody they have things in common with.
And I know several mixed couples with children. Granted, this Canada, so maybe the "need to perpetuate the black race" you are talking about doesn't apply here. And maybe it has something to do with there being a much smaller black population in Canada and black women not wanting to limit themselves to trying to snare one of the few black men around.
Is it very different the other way around (i.e., how do many "white" parents react when the daughter brings home the "black" guy and tells them that they want to marry)?
I wouldn't like it at all. But I am a hypocrite, I have slept with black women. When I see white guy with a black girl I don't mind, the other way around disgusts me, I can't help it. I know it's wrong, I really do.
Don Corleone
02-02-2006, 20:16
I wouldn't like it at all. But I am a hypocrite, I have slept with black women. When I see white guy with a black girl I don't mind, the other way around disgusts me, I can't help it. I know it's wrong, I really do.
You're an animal, Fragony!!! All kidding aside, you really are responding to biological imperatives. Trends which increase your likelihood of successfully mating (black girls dating white guys) will be viewed as positive. Trends which correspondingly decrease your odds (black guys taking white girls out) will be viewed as negative. It's basic, when it comes to sex, you're pre-programmed to believe that anything that leads to you getting laid is good, and anything that might slow that down is bad. Now, before anybody accuses me of defending selected racism, there's a whole host of things that are 'natural', that are bad, when it comes to human behavior. Revenge, murder, croneyism, nepotism... there's a whole host of social ills that are perfectly explainable as natural. You need to use your grey matter to think past your basic instincts... "WHY does it bother me that my black friend is taking my sister out, when given the chance, I'd nail his sister in a heartbeat..."
Ser Clegane
02-02-2006, 20:27
I wouldn't like it at all. But I am a hypocrite, I have slept with black women. When I see white guy with a black girl I don't mind, the other way around disgusts me, I can't help it. I know it's wrong, I really do.
A very honest answer, which I appreciate :bow:
Actually I think these kind of reactions are common - that we feel a "defensive" reaction when we encounter people who are "different", even if we know that these reactions are wrong.
In the end it counts what a person does (i.e. does he/she act in line with these defensive reactions or is he/she able to suppress them when reacting to other poeple). It's next to impossible to control feelings - it's a different matter when it comes to taking action.
Vladimir
02-02-2006, 21:35
I need to find a woman that hates all other races except for whatever the heck I am. Less competition that way.
Major Robert Dump
02-02-2006, 21:44
Goofball:
BHM is not government sdponsored per se, although most libraries, schools, public buildings like courthouses and city halls will have displays and events to "educate" people on black accomplishments. You will also see magazines, newspapers and broadcast do a lot of stories about this as well.
While working at the student paper at OU it always annoyed me that "diversity" stories took front page no matter what, so during BHM or Cultural Awarenss Week or Gay Pride week you would always have this stuff shoved down your throat, while the story of a rape and murder down the street or a typhoon that kills 5000 people gets a 4th page write up. A lot of non-college papers are like this as well on the small/medium town level.
solypsist
02-02-2006, 21:49
Dave has a good point, and it's nice to see an opinion posted that is designed to create discussion rather than polarized entrenchment.
I agree that Black History is American History.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 02:18
I wouldn't like it at all. But I am a hypocrite, I have slept with black women. When I see white guy with a black girl I don't mind, the other way around disgusts me, I can't help it. I know it's wrong, I really do.
Perhaps its more of a natural male sexual thing with a bit of race issues when a white guy is disgusted by seeing a white woman with a black guy. Biology dictates that we continue our species through our own seeds and that natural need to procreate is more amplified when we see a man that is of a different color than us procreating with a female of our own skin pigment.
In honor of Black History month I have to tell you the most influential man in my life besides my father was SMSgt Brodrick Booker. If ever the spirit of America was exemplified by one man it would be him. He was a fellow Southerner, good Christian man. Man we would have long talks about racism and how our beliefs had changed through our experiences growing up in the South and then being in the melting pot of the military. He helped me as an Airman, took care of any problems my wife had while I was in Korea if she had problems on the base, and was the greatest influence on my progression to the NCO core. SMSgt Booker was a complete inspiration to me and I love him like a father. I guess in a way Black History month helps remind me of him for the magnitude of greatness and humility this man had but SMSgt Booker was not a black man, just a man like me who happened to have a different skin pigment than i did.
God bless you SMSgt Booker, I'm proud to have served with you and to have called you my friend.:2thumbsup:
I believe its more of a natural male sexual thing with a bit of race issues when a white guy is disgusted by seeing a white woman with a black guy. Biology dictates that we continue our species through our own seeds and that natural need to procreate is more amplified when we see a man that is of a different color than us procreating with a female of our own skin pigment.
Do you? Strange, but I think exactly the opposite. I believe it to be a racist thing (or rather merely prejudice) that is excused with talk of biological and conditional priorities.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 02:55
Do you? Strange, but I think exactly the opposite. I believe it to be a racist thing (or rather merely prejudice) that is excused with talk of biological and conditional priorities.
I was not saying that it wasn't racist or prejudiced in the least. And I was not equating natural selection or thought processes being intellectual moral or acceptable. I was just stating an opinion or a possibility of why some would be more offended by black male/white woman than white male/black woman relationships. Am I wrong for trying to find reason in these feelings? I thought reasoning and looking for answers in life was the purpose of these discussions we have here.
Papewaio
02-03-2006, 02:55
I think it is often the parents wondering if they will be able to get along with the inlaw since they are potentionally coming from vastly different cultures.
They worry about miscommunications, the inability to understand each other, how their own child will be treated by wider society and how the 'mixed' grandchildren will be treated. They also worry how they themselves will be treated by their family and society... "Oh my god your son-in-law is white..."
People fear what they don't understand and fear can lead to anger.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 02:59
People fear what they don't understand and fear can lead to anger.
Yoda is that you?:laugh4:
Slyspy, I edited to say "Perhaps" since I was stating a theory which I really don't "believe" without a doubt to be true. I do believe that there are more hot black ladies than there are men simply because I'm heterosexual. Is that a safe statement or would that be sexist on my part and I have to start pining over hot black men in order to not be "racist"?:help:
I need to find a woman that hates all other races except for whatever the heck I am. Less competition that way.
Easier than you think.
Is Black History month just about US blacks, or are famous negroids from all over celebrated? It's actually the same deal up here in Canada, but no one not a North American is mentioned except Mandela.
Some interesting theories about why there are far more black man-white woman combinations that the other way round. One suggestion is that it is about status. A white woman's status isn't vastly affected by a relationship with a black man. Western society puts the two at a similar station. However there is a large status disparity between a white man and a black woman.
I don't know how much I really hold with the theory, but it draws the debate into an interesting avenue.
rory_20_uk
02-03-2006, 14:14
My girlfriend has a different perspective: "no black girl would put up with the way black men behave [sleep around] the way white women do".
I've no idea the truth of that, but seeing as how she's deen out with and dumped more black guys than I have I'm not going to argue! :boxing:
But when we're out no white guy gives us a second look. It's the black guys that really get pissed off - even if they've got a white woman on their arm... :dizzy2:
~:smoking:
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 14:40
Gorebag, I'm not sure if the word "negroid" is acceptable in Canada, but please be careful using it around here because it is offensive to many folks, myself included. I'm sure you didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion. Take care friend and please continue to discuss this issue in this thread.:bow:
rory_20_uk
02-03-2006, 14:51
Dave, are you also against the terms "Mongoloid" and "Caucasoid" along with "Negroid"? Quite usual terms to hear mentioned amongst anthropologists...
Does the word "Niggardly" Also get binned? I believe it's Icelandic in origin, but hell, it sounds pretty close to the "N" word though...
And did you know that the term "Afro-Carribean" can cause offence to... them? My girlfriend gets very upset: "I'm black and / or Carribean damnit! Don't call me no damn African!"
Again, just as some folks get offended doesn't mean it should suddenly not be used - freedom of speech, no?
~:smoking:
Ser Clegane
02-03-2006, 14:58
Uhm ... Dave was just asking for some courtesy and pointed out that some people might consider the use of the word to be offensive (in a polite way I might add), it's not that he started burning flags or something like that.
There are a lot of words that don't originally have a negative connotation but developed it over time in specific countries/regions through context
I don't see a reason to "ban" the term "negroid" - I think everybody can decide for himself if he/she wants to use the word, Dave's post merely points out how some people might interpret the use of this term.
rory_20_uk
02-03-2006, 15:03
Apoligies - must have too much coffee in my system :oops:
~:grouphug:
~:smoking:
Don Corleone
02-03-2006, 15:08
Hee hee, for a moment of levity, let me offer my own insights on offensive terms and people being oblivious to it.
My mother is ethnically Irish (her grandparents were off the boat) who grew up in an Irish enclave suburb of Boston. My father was of Italian descent, same deal. When they started dating, and then married, of course both of my grandmothers were scandalized.
Well, I never knew the cute pet names my parents called each other: mick, harp (Dad to Mom) or dago, wop (Mom to Dad) weren't polite. So in Kindergarten, we had 'what are you' day, where you're supposed to talk about your ancestry and ethnic background. I got up and proud as day announced "Well, my mom's a mick, my dad's a guinnea, and my nana says that makes my sister and I mongrels'. You can imagine the teacher's response. To her credit, she chimed right in with "it's okay honey, I'm a guinnea too, and I'm sure most of us are mongrels these days'. Looking back on it now, I would LOVE to have been a fly on the wall when my mother came in for the next parent teacher conference.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 15:11
Dave, are you also against the terms "Mongoloid" and "Caucasoid" along with "Negroid"? Quite usual terms to hear mentioned amongst anthropologists...
Does the word "Niggardly" Also get binned? I believe it's Icelandic in origin, but hell, it sounds pretty close to the "N" word though...
And did you know that the term "Afro-Carribean" can cause offence to... them? My girlfriend gets very upset: "I'm black and / or Carribean damnit! Don't call me no damn African!"
Again, just as some folks get offended doesn't mean it should suddenly not be used - freedom of speech, no?
~:smoking:
Rory, I was just pointing it out for his sake and everyone else in this thread. I would have sent a PM, but i wanted to have it in the open so everyone knew where I was coming from and wasn't suggesting any reprocussions. The word "niggardly" is not offensive, but at the same time there are better words to use and in a multicultured board it might be better to use another word. Much like the Swastica, a Buddist symbol perverted by a sick man and ideaology, words like mongoloid, caucasoid, and negroid are to some derrogatory. But this is all symantics and takes away from the discussion.
Rory do you have any opinion on the topic of this thread? I'd like to hear it.:bow:
Don Corleone
02-03-2006, 15:16
Dave makes a good point. Many times words that are perfectly harmless and have no connotation become that way due to circumstance. The term mongoloid, for example, originally was used by anthropologists to refer to members of Asiatic races. But in this country, when I was a kid, mongoloid, in common parlance, referred to people with certain types of genetic disorders, such as down's syndrome, because of the narrowed eyes. Obviously, in light of that, a Korean American would not appreciate being called a mongoloid, although strictly speaking, it's accurate (no offense intended to any Korean Americans out there).
rory_20_uk
02-03-2006, 15:24
Well, I'm not American and have never even visited America (I've watched some American TV though...)
I think that to base achievements on colour is the wrong way to go, as to a lesser extent basing achievements on nationality or religion. Basically I completely agree with what you say to start with.
To be tuely fair religion / gender / race should be ignored. There will be areas where people are better than others but so what? As long as all got the chance to be there it shouldn't matter (I know - it's not true today).
A small example: in the UK very few surgeons are female, but there are far more in psychiatry and paediactrics. Should laws be passed against this terrible divide, or can we accept that perhaps men are generally better surgeons and women better at psychiatry and paediactrics?
Another obvious example of meritocracy is sport. thankfully no one has demanded that equal members of each race are admitted - the individual wins and we celebrate him / her, regardless of what they look like and where they are from.
~:smoking:
Gorebag, I'm not sure if the word "negroid" is acceptable in Canada, but please be careful using it around here because it is offensive to many folks, myself included. I'm sure you didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion. Take care friend and please continue to discuss this issue in this thread.:bow:
Just a neutral, anthropological term to me - Caucasoid, negroid. I think 'blacks' and 'whites' are strange terms. I'm sure you didn't mean your post to be patronising, likewise.
Vladimir
02-03-2006, 15:48
Hee hee, for a moment of levity, let me offer my own insights on offensive terms and people being oblivious to it.
My mother is ethnically Irish (her grandparents were off the boat) who grew up in an Irish enclave suburb of Boston. My father was of Italian descent, same deal. When they started dating, and then married, of course both of my grandmothers were scandalized.
Well, I never knew the cute pet names my parents called each other: mick, harp (Dad to Mom) or dago, wop (Mom to Dad) weren't polite. So in Kindergarten, we had 'what are you' day, where you're supposed to talk about your ancestry and ethnic background. I got up and proud as day announced "Well, my mom's a mick, my dad's a guinnea, and my nana says that makes my sister and I mongrels'. You can imagine the teacher's response. To her credit, she chimed right in with "it's okay honey, I'm a guinnea too, and I'm sure most of us are mongrels these days'. Looking back on it now, I would LOVE to have been a fly on the wall when my mother came in for the next parent teacher conference.
Hats off to the American mongrel! Besides, I keep hearing that we're all originally from Africa so what's the big deal? [Culture]
AquaLurker
02-03-2006, 16:03
For once I agree with the DD.
Just a quickie, but I haven't experienced black male/white female couples to be rare. Good friend of my wife's is a white boy who hooked up with a black lady. Three houses from me is a white pastor who married a black woman. One of my old co-workers is the daughter of a white male/black female couple. So in my personal experience, it ain't necessarily so.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 16:16
Just a neutral, anthropological term to me - Caucasoid, negroid. I think 'blacks' and 'whites' are strange terms. I'm sure you didn't mean your post to be patronising, likewise.
In no way did I mean it patronising. "Black" and "white" are also very simplistic so i agree with you especially considering the fact that many of us have both "black" and white" blood running through our veins. Thanks for the response. Good to have an open conversation with you and in case I haven't said it to you before, welcome to the Backroom.:bow:
Don Corleone
02-03-2006, 16:41
Hats off to the American mongrel! Besides, I keep hearing that we're all originally from Africa so what's the big deal? [Culture]
And yet, I managed to get into a LOT of trouble in University when I tried to claim status as an African-American student (on the pretense that if you go far enough back, we're all African).
Personally, I would do away with race altogether. The odds are pretty damned good we all have at least a little white, black and hispanic in us, what makes us white or black or hispanic is percentage and cultural assosciation. Asians haven't been in the US as long, and they haven't spread as wide out away from the West Coast as other races, but as time and assimilation grow, they're joining in the cocktail we call 'America' as well. Give it time, and you'll need a centrifuge to be able to tell somebody what you are. :dizzy2:
I didn't say white man/black woman couples don't happen (look at the Willis family on the Jeffersons). I just said I believe that they happen at much lower frequency than vice versa, at least as far as permanent relationships go. This is based on my own observations and anecotal experiences of three ex-girlfriends. For all I know, I'm way off the mark and statistics would show the ratios to be the same, or maybe even slightly in favor of white-male/black-female relationships.
A few factoids to throw into the discussion:
This all began when Dr. Carter Woodson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_G._Woodson) established "Negro History Week" in 1926.
In 1976, as part of the celebration of the bicentennial, the week was expanded into a month.
Dr. Woodson hoped that the week would eventually be eliminated, when African-American history would be fully integrated with American history.
There's a fairly devent Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_History_Month) that covers the basics of BHM.
Despite all of the very good reasons to hold BHM in February, I still think it's a miserable month to get stuck with. If the tradition continues, we really ought to think about moving it to something more pleasing, such as May or June.
Don Corleone
02-03-2006, 17:05
It can't be May or June. Many schools, especially in the South close for the summer in early June. May tends to be exam review time. My vote would be for October, but again, it may be that Americans have learned about as much Black History as they're going to (sadly, about as much as any other history, which is bumpkus).
A small example: in the UK very few surgeons are female, but there are far more in psychiatry and paediactrics. Should laws be passed against this terrible divide, or can we accept that perhaps men are generally better surgeons and women better at psychiatry and paediactrics?
You completely overlook highly significant cultural factors at work both in the jobs people select for themselves and the jobs that people are selected and directed to.
DC - Mongoid, not mongoloid is the term for someone with Down's.
Mongoloid, Negroid, Causcoid are scientifically obsolete terms and are not used in modern anthropology. They are based on a discredited idea that white people came from the Caucas mountains.
I think the lower numbers of non-black male/black female couples might have something to do with the willingness or motivation of non-black men to date a black woman. It's been my experience that most non-black men simply don't want a serious relationship with a black woman. This being the case they might not be as inclined to go that extra mile (read aggressiveness, time, money & effort) to get a black girlfriend. Most simply want to 'give it a go' and then move on. An old buddy of mine from Japan was a perfect example of this. He used to tell me he fantasized about sleeping with an attractive black woman but when I pressed him about what kind of woman he wanted to get serious with or marry the response was "Japanese, probably (east) Asian ... maybe a white girl." and that was it.
As to the earlier remark that a black woman would never put up with the kind of abuse that a white woman would, well I would disagree... with qualifications. Having lived in NYC all my life I have found the opposite to be true. I've never seen women treated as badly as black men treat their women and I have never seen women make more excuses for the behavior of their men as black women do. If I didn't know any better I'd say black women in general seem to thrive on abuse and are notorious masochists. Whether we're talking about the disparate rates in domestic violence, illegitimacy, etc. On the other hand (and on a rather incendiary note) I will say that I've noticed that many non-black women who date black men (especially those who 'only' date black men) seem to be unusually submissive and/or obssessed with men they perceive as being extremely dominant. This might have fueled rory_20_uk's girlfriend's observation about white women.
Despite all of the very good reasons to hold BHM in February, I still think it's a miserable month to get stuck with. If the tradition continues, we really ought to think about moving it to something more pleasing, such as May or June.
How about getting rid of this 'race of the month club' silliness altogether and simply provide African-Americans with the same honor bestowed other large ethnic groups? Italians have Columbus Day, the Irish St. Patrick's, etc. African Americans already have Martin Luther King day. Let's leave it at that. I'm also a little sick of the notion that America's youth should be schooled in the culture of other groups. It's especially ridiculous in light of the fact that from grades 4 and up America's students are far behind the industrialized world in terms of mathematics and science and are sadly mediocre in easier subjects like english and history. But hey, let's keep pushing the social engineering agenda! Our youth may not know their readin', ritin' and rithmatic but they're damn good people... please.
I also find it amusing that liberal leaning Americans go bats--t and scream about the separation of church and state whenever a religious symbol is displayed on government property (or for that matter, anything remotely religious receives sponsorship by the government) and yet they have no problem with the notion of picking and choosing which ethnic/racial group gets a cultural nod by the government and society at large for an entire month!
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 17:41
It can't be May or June. Many schools, especially in the South close for the summer in early June. May tends to be exam review time. My vote would be for October, but again, it may be that Americans have learned about as much Black History as they're going to (sadly, about as much as any other history, which is bumpkus).
So true... Like Chris Rock said, "Everything I knew about Black History was Martin Luther King!!!"
My vote would be for October, but again, it may be that Americans have learned about as much Black History as they're going to (sadly, about as much as any other history, which is bumpkus).
Isn't October already Latino History Month?
Dave, relax. I'm NeonGod after a name change.
Devastatin Dave
02-03-2006, 17:48
Isn't October already Latino History Month?
Dave, relax. I'm NeonGod after a name change.
Oh!!! If i had known that I would have told you to kiss my ass and left it at that!!! :laugh4:
I couldn't have left you to look the fool. It would have been uncharacteristic.
Spartakus
02-03-2006, 19:57
I don't think there should be a month that celebrates the achievements of Blacks in the United States. I believe that American history, which involves all races and cultures, should be taught and celebrated and be all inclussive. In a way, if I was black, I would find it insulting as an American that is black, that my achievements of my ancestors only be celebrated for one month.
Yeah, and I don't know if this has already been pointed out, but having a specific "Black History Month" also implies that the remaining 11 months of the year are "White History Months". Still, I wouldn't mind more attention being given to the history of the negroid peoples of Sub-Saharan Africa, their representation often is nearly non apparent in most general history works and classes, especially when it comes to the pre-colonial period.
As for the whole off-track White-Black relationship issue, I too have seen this tendency for White males to shun Black women and instead prefer other Whites or sometimes Asians. Likewise, White women seem to shun Asian men, I think I've seen ONE White female and Asian male couple in my life, while the vice versa I see on a regular basis.
I remember this wisecrack; Black men do White women, White men do Asian women, and Asian men play Starcraft. :laugh4:
rory_20_uk
02-03-2006, 22:42
Idaho, I was illustrating that differences is not an indication that something is wrong. And if cultures are pushed or pulled towards a certain trade this too is not something to worry about - not all factors can be blamed on society's discrimination.
As far as I'm aware us medicas call them trisomy 21 now, but monoloid was certainly the other term I've used. Yes,I'm a sinner
The terms may be redundant, but I'm still called a caucasian, which no one seems to get hot under the collar about.
~:smoking:
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