View Full Version : What's better, BI or RTR?
SirGrotius
02-02-2006, 19:46
I'm just wrapping up a very enjoyable campaign as the Alemmani (BI, 1.6) and was wondering if it'd be worth it to try RTR.
Is RTR better than BI? By better, I mean, more enjoyable.
I understand that I'd have to patch "down" for RTR, to 1.2? That sounds like a bad idea to me.
Thanks for the input!
Copperhaired Berserker!
02-02-2006, 20:38
Get EB. It has much more content than RTR, and the best thing is that it is the only the beta.
Yes, definitely try RTR. At heart, of course, it is just RTW - so it has a much bigger campaign than BI with very different units. But it improves on it in a number of ways.
The units are the most obvious - they are more authentic and just "feel" more right to me. The stats have been adjusted to make the relative arms somewhat like BI - missiles and cavalry are much weaker than RTW (and even BI), which I think is historical. Plus morale has been pumped up to make battles last longer.
At the campaign level, unit recruitment has been altered so that it takes longer to get your own units in occupied provinces. Naval combat has been made much more decisive. The economy has been tightened up. And the map redrawn to be more historical (Rome is unified with only 3 starting provinces).
Yes, you do have to work with 1.2. I just have a dual install (actually triple - one for EB as well).
EB is also worth trying - it does similar things to RTR but I agree has more content. Unfortunately, it crashed so much on my rig that it became unplayable.
Get EB. It has much more content than RTR, and the best thing is that it is the only the beta.
I second this. :2thumbsup:
Unfortunately it is for patch 1.2 so the AI is still dumb as a rock but the features they have brings a new level to RTW.
Copperhaired Berserker!
02-02-2006, 22:04
I have no ploblems with EB.:2thumbsup:
littlebktruck
02-03-2006, 02:00
Having tried both EB and RTR, I personally prefer RTR. EB has a lot more content, it's true, but everything is cripplingly expensive. If you want a more realistic (and much more fun) game that still plays generally like regular RTW, I'd go for RTR. I really didn't play EB much at all though, so your mileage may vary.
Razor1952
02-03-2006, 03:55
BI or RTR, both are worthy , though I found WRE in BI the most intersting campaign I've played so far.
Ignoramus
02-03-2006, 08:35
I found BI a massive disappointment, it was too easy. And the historical accuracy wasn't that good either...
So I would definitely go for RTR or EB or another historical mod, much better, and they're cheaper too~D
BI definately, RTR and EB are crap and shouldn't have been released at all.
BI definately, RTR and EB are crap and shouldn't have been released at all.
It might be helpful if you explained why you disliked them. Especially given that so many poster seem to disagree with you.
RTR is being converted to be in use with the BI engine. So hopefully very shortly they will have a BI working version of RTR.
I kid you not, the only reason that I purchased BI is because RTR 7 is going to require it.
EB & RTR both make big improvements on the base game.
Personally I found EB open beta too buggy/incomplete to play much at the moment.
RTR 6 gold is what I play in the meantime (with Trajans SigniferOnes animations mod & a few tweaks of my own).
It might be helpful if you explained why you disliked them. Especially given that so many poster seem to disagree with you.
RTR has nothing about that makes it worth playing. Creative text editing could do half of what RTR does. All the historical "accuracy" none of the BS.
And EB well the balls-to-the-wall arrogance displayed by that group is gag inducing. Their whole we know better than CA and are going to put out a mod that looks like crap (litterally given the colours palette they use) to prove how much we know and how great we are attitude.
But what bothers me most is that they all want to make RTW more like MTW (:wall: ). MTW was the weakest TW and nothing about it's game play should ever be attempted again.
hellenes
02-04-2006, 08:17
RTR has nothing about that makes it worth playing. Creative text editing could do half of what RTR does. All the historical "accuracy" none of the BS.
And EB well the balls-to-the-wall arrogance displayed by that group is gag inducing. Their whole we know better than CA and are going to put out a mod that looks like crap (litterally given the colours palette they use) to prove how much we know and how great we are attitude.
But what bothers me most is that they all want to make RTW more like MTW (:wall: ). MTW was the weakest TW and nothing about it's game play should ever be attempted again.
in YOUR opinion...
Just an observation...
Hellenes
Aetius the Last Roman
02-04-2006, 12:46
RTR has nothing about that makes it worth playing. Creative text editing could do half of what RTR does. All the historical "accuracy" none of the BS.
And EB well the balls-to-the-wall arrogance displayed by that group is gag inducing. Their whole we know better than CA and are going to put out a mod that looks like crap (litterally given the colours palette they use) to prove how much we know and how great we are attitude.
But what bothers me most is that they all want to make RTW more like MTW (:wall: ). MTW was the weakest TW and nothing about it's game play should ever be attempted again.
What is this anyway?
I have played RTR since its first build and if you see the amount of work you wouldn't claim that RTR was an amateur project. RTR was the first people who came up with the the Area of Recruitment (actually implemented it), created the Spain to India sized map and they created many new and different units. They were also willing to take on other mods into their own which I think requires a good deal of humility and compromise.
As for EB, 'walls to the balls arrogance' was deserved on their part. Never have I seen such pinpoint detail that is lacking in the Total War Series. On top of that little things like the trait systems overhaul (not really a small thing), the new method of buildings and recruitment, the random quests, weather movement restrictions and the new unique buildings.
EB deserves the arrogance they people perceive them to have (although personally I think they are pretty cool about what they have done). They have created mind-blowing mods and deserve to be congratulated, FACT. My experience with both is that RTR was great but just had too many cities (Seige:Total War got boring to fast) and EB needs to fix their faction expansion and the crashes :furious3:. However that said they were both great mods and do not deserve your uneducated and unsubstantiated criticism, especially to the people who did really put work into those mods.
Lastly, given that MTW's (and even more so STW's) gameplay has been largely mythologised by the older TW players but it was still a good deal harder than RTW (generals running into phalanx's anyone). For one you could actually lose on MTW if you were playing on expert and on top of that the autoresolve button actually worked. If MTW was really so bad why do many people still play it from time to time.
I have an idea my friend, why don't you mind your words when you for one could not even come with a mod of even marginal value compared to the RTR and EB modders.
AquaLurker
02-04-2006, 13:24
I like RTR for its single player pace against AI, I like BI for its multi-player pace and balance. The multiplayer pace for RTR is just not right.
Yukon Cornelius
02-04-2006, 13:25
While he's no diplomat, don't take offense from Lars' words. He has strong opinions, sometimes doesn't explain them thoroughly, and writes in a rather brusk manner. I'm not under the impression he's trying to ruffle anyone's feathers.
Silver Rusher
02-04-2006, 15:21
lars, didn't you know how much you were going to get criticised for saying that? Not saying that you are wrong (although I disagree about EB and MTW) but this society has developed in such a way that if you want to criticise a mod that someone has made, you are GOING to protested.
...this society has developed in such a way that if you want to criticise a mod that someone has made, you are GOING to protested.
That's a conscious decision here - we treat mod makers (and CA) as Org members - they usually are - and members are supposed to treat each other with respect. It is just plain rude to insult someone else's work. Criticism in neutral language is ok - constructive criticism is valuable - but using offensive language to denigrate other people's work is not acceptable.
What is this anyway?
I have played RTR since its first build and if you see the amount of work you wouldn't claim that RTR was an amateur project. RTR was the first people who came up with the the Area of Recruitment (actually implemented it), created the Spain to India sized map and they created many new and different units. They were also willing to take on other mods into their own which I think requires a good deal of humility and compromise.
It is an amateur project. AoR is horrible idea and should have been rejected out hand with out ever being considered.
As for EB, 'walls to the balls arrogance' was deserved on their part. Never have I seen such pinpoint detail that is lacking in the Total War Series. On top of that little things like the trait systems overhaul (not really a small thing), the new method of buildings and recruitment, the random quests, weather movement restrictions and the new unique buildings.
No it's not deserved. All they did was make RTW unplayable. If RTW had been like EB or RTR out of the box it would have failed so bably it would have been painful to watch. I would have returned it to the store and hoped CA would do better next time.
EB deserves the arrogance they people perceive them to have (although personally I think they are pretty cool about what they have done). They have created mind-blowing mods and deserve to be congratulated, FACT. My experience with both is that RTR was great but just had too many cities (Seige:Total War got boring to fast) and EB needs to fix their faction expansion and the crashes :furious3:. However that said they were both great mods and do not deserve your uneducated and unsubstantiated criticism, especially to the people who did really put work into those mods.
I go by what I see and hear. I've vowed never to play either RTR or EB. And all I see and hear are bad ideas poorly executed. Uneducated ha!
Lastly, given that MTW's (and even more so STW's) gameplay has been largely mythologised by the older TW players but it was still a good deal harder than RTW (generals running into phalanx's anyone). For one you could actually lose on MTW if you were playing on expert and on top of that the autoresolve button actually worked. If MTW was really so bad why do many people still play it from time to time.
People still play it because they are incapapble of changing their play style to the more advanced RTW system. You can't play every single game the same way, and you can't expect to either.
I have an idea my friend, why don't you mind your words when you for one could not even come with a mod of even marginal value compared to the RTR and EB modders.
How about no. How about I say what I think and you stop tyring to mount your high horse.
lars, didn't you know how much you were going to get criticised for saying that? Not saying that you are wrong (although I disagree about EB and MTW) but this society has developed in such a way that if you want to criticise a mod that someone has made, you are GOING to protested.
Yes, but I had to say it. Aswell others are aloud to moan about regular RTW. So I should be able to do the same about these turds if I want.
That's a conscious decision here - we treat mod makers (and CA) as Org members - they usually are - and members are supposed to treat each other with respect. It is just plain rude to insult someone else's work. Criticism in neutral language is ok - constructive criticism is valuable - but using offensive language to denigrate other people's work is not acceptable.
If they were willing to accept anything aproaching constructive criticism I'd try. They only want praise, and bug fixes for their wastes of time.
hellenes
02-04-2006, 17:50
It is an amateur project. AoR is horrible idea and should have been rejected out hand with out ever being considered.
No it's not deserved. All they did was make RTW unplayable. If RTW had been like EB or RTR out of the box it would have failed so bably it would have been painful to watch. I would have returned it to the store and hoped CA would do better next time.
I go by what I see and hear. I've vowed never to play either RTR or EB. And all I see and hear are bad ideas poorly executed. Uneducated ha!
People still play it because they are incapapble of changing their play style to the more advanced RTW system. You can't play every single game the same way, and you can't expect to either.
How about no. How about I say what I think and you stop tyring to mount your high horse.
Yes, but I had to say it. Aswell others are aloud to moan about regular RTW. So I should be able to do the same about these turds if I want.
If they were willing to accept anything aproaching constructive criticism I'd try. They only want praise, and bug fixes for their wastes of time.
1000000 sales of MTW and 100000 downloads of RTR pretty much diminish the whole point in this argument.
Hellenes
1000000 sales of MTW and 100000 downloads of RTR pretty much diminish the whole point in this argument.
Hellenes
I didn't say I don't have MTW just that is pales compared to RTW. Also 100000 dl's of RTR LOL!!! In your, and their, dreams.
hellenes
02-04-2006, 18:37
I didn't say I don't have MTW just that is pales compared to RTW. Also 100000 dl's of RTR LOL!!! In your, and their, dreams.
You are self inflicting blows on your credibility....RTR had 100000 downloads on first few days of release of 6.0...
I might disagree with the RTR team on the number of cities and other aspects but I only critisize them with points that I dont like and with suggestions how to improve/change things, and if I really want something to change Ill do my best presenting ARGUMENTS (spelling A R G U M E N T S) and convincing the team...eg http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/index.php?showtopic=10508&hl=
Its your right and opinion to adore dumbing down process and favour a more casual and relaxed stance towards the game, but you have to know that not all people have the same preferences as you and that YOUR definition of "fun" isnt a universal standard...
Hellenes
Lord Winter
02-04-2006, 18:43
Basically BI is faster then RTR smaller map less units
RTR slows the game down, so you cant conquer the world in the first 30 turns and adds a variety of new units.
If your looking for a challenge go to RTR.
No it's not deserved. All they did was make RTW unplayable. If RTW had been like EB or RTR out of the box it would have failed so bably it would have been painful to watch. I would have returned it to the store and hoped CA would do better next time.
I disagree.
If RTW was like RTR then yes the game would have been boring beyond belief but if RTW would have been like EB then it wouldn't have failed.
EB team has done amazing things with the game and the mod is still at a beta status. Once they have sorted out the CTDs and various other problems the mod will be the greatest ever.
EB is probably the most challenging mod(next to Darthmod) there is at the moment and that is always great :2thumbsup:
I doubt that. EB looks horrible. And most of what I've heard about the game play is not inspiring.
Lord Winter
02-04-2006, 23:36
You cant really judge EB right now its no were close to what a finished product will look like
You cant really judge EB right now its no were close to what a finished product will look like
Watch me. I decided it would suck 7 months ago. And added to my never play by choice unless paid extravagent sums of cash list.
You should try it .
The units for the celtic factions looks amazing.
But it's a beta so the mod isn't complete but still it beats other mods that are complete.
hellenes
02-04-2006, 23:56
I doubt that. EB looks horrible. And most of what I've heard about the game play is not inspiring.
....
Lord Winter
02-05-2006, 01:37
:dancinglock:
The posts in this thread need to talk about specific aspects of BI or RTR. Talk about what you like and what you don’t like. Hurl insults and I will close this. Let's keep it civil.
(...,) RTR and EB are crap and shouldn't have been released at all.
RTR has nothing about that makes it worth playing. Creative text editing could do half of what RTR does. All the historical "accuracy" none of the BS.
I go by what I see and hear. I've vowed never to play either RTR or EB. And all I see and hear are bad ideas poorly executed. Uneducated ha!
People still play it because they are incapapble of changing their play style to the more advanced RTW system. You can't play every single game the same way, and you can't expect to either.
I decided it would suck 7 months ago. And added to my never play by choice unless paid extravagent sums of cash list.
I can understand it if you just disliked them, but why this hostility? They are just mods. They didn't cost your money nor wasted your time.
If you think R:TW is the perfect game, that's cool. But other people might like different things. Like you said, you cannot expect to play every game the same way, and that also holds true for mods. So far, your arguments against EB and R:TR are that AoR is a bad idea, EB's skins are ugly and the slowing of the battle speed is not good. All of these are debatable.
Teleklos Archelaou
02-06-2006, 01:37
How about this: Anyone who vehemently criticizes ("sucks", "crap", "horrible", "arrogant", etc.) something they refuse to even *try*, in terms of a mod of a game they are very much interested in, deserves any amount of scorn and disgust that reasonable people can take the effort to throw their way.
edit: Any moderators ought to also realize that expressing an opinion about something (even if it is crude) is different from the type of extremely hostile and juvenile maligning that is going on here, *without any attempt to actually experience the thing they are spewing negative information about*.
Malrubius
02-06-2006, 01:55
And added to my never play by choice unless paid extravagent sums of cash list.
We're taking up a collection now.
Copperhaired Berserker!
02-06-2006, 09:26
Don't. Send the money to charity, and let my Berserkers ( :laugh4: )make him play everyday and night. He has the worst taste EVAR!
Catiline
02-06-2006, 11:45
How about this: Anyone who vehemently criticizes ("sucks", "crap", "horrible", "arrogant", etc.) something they refuse to even *try*, in terms of a mod of a game they are very much interested in, deserves any amount of scorn and disgust that reasonable people can take the effort to throw their way.
edit: Any moderators ought to also realize that expressing an opinion about something (even if it is crude) is different from the type of extremely hostile and juvenile maligning that is going on here, *without any attempt to actually experience the thing they are spewing negative information about*.
We are, and it has been taken into account
edit: Any moderators ought to also realize that expressing an opinion about something (even if it is crude) is different from the type of extremely hostile and juvenile maligning that is going on here, ...
Members don't always see what action moderators take. But rest assured, mod bashing is not tolerated here. Now, let's move along, back to topic...~:grouphug:
Edit: Gah! Catiline beat me to the punch.
I can understand it if you just disliked them, but why this hostility? They are just mods. They didn't cost your money nor wasted your time.
Yes it did waste my time. Plus the whole consept of a realism mod makes me angry.
If you think R:TW is the perfect game, that's cool. But other people might like different things. Like you said, you cannot expect to play every game the same way, and that also holds true for mods. So far, your arguments against EB and R:TR are that AoR is a bad idea, EB's skins are ugly and the slowing of the battle speed is not good. All of these are debatable.
No there not. I'm always right, end of story. If you disagree your wrong, period.
We're taking up a collection now.
Don't bother, you'd never raise enough. It would have to be 7 figures at least. Even then I'd just take it and laugh at you for giving it to me.
Don't. Send the money to charity, and let my Berserkers ( )make him play everyday and night. He has the worst taste EVAR!
If you liike EB you do. I have good taste.
Yes it did waste my time. Plus the whole consept of a realism mod makes me angry.
......
Not one convincing argument up to this point apart from a mention about color schemes and some people being arrogant.
Since I haven't tried BI or any mods I'd like to know exactly whether they are worth playing.
Watchman
02-06-2006, 16:00
BI is, IMHO. Mods are a matter of taste. I personally avoid the excessively ambitous ones, if only because I think trying to reach an overly high level of "realism" or "historical accuracy" is really a bit silly. You want historical accuracy ? How about geographics, ecology and internal politcal considerations rendering the Rome/Persia war frontier to a functionally unbreakable strategic deadlock neither could make any headway in for one example...
There's no way true historical accuracy over topics like that can be modeled in a computer game (that's supposed to remain playable anyway), and neither should it be. It's just not going to be worth the sheer trouble.
Anyway, at least about all the mods hosted on TWcenter have their own sub-forums or threads or something similar, and taking a look at those ought to give you a decent impression of what the mod's all about. If it looks interesting, well, odds are you could spend your time more creatively than playing computer games anyway so you might as well try it.
People still play it because they are incapapble of changing their play style to the more advanced RTW system. You can't play every single game the same way, and you can't expect to either.
:laugh4: One of most common complaints about "more advanced RTW system" is it's too easy!
On topic: RTR > BI (imo) but I would not want to be without BI either.
Since I haven't tried BI or any mods I'd like to know exactly whether they are worth playing.
I had a hard return to RTR after playing some EB and BI. Early in a Roman campaign, I sent a 3/4 full stack army to siege a half full stack of Gauls. The Gauls then moved a full stack reinforcing army to relieve the town and my Romans were simply over-run. They died almost to a man, like Spartans. In other TW games, a 3/4 full stack of mine would have been safe but with RTR I was taught a lesson. Now I tend to keep my stacks at almost full strength just to avoid another such humiliation.
I almost quit the game in frustration at that point. The "problem" is that RTR puts unit morale to very high levels so units will tend to fight on for a long time[1]. Romans die almost to a man (well mine did). At first, I thought this was over the top - it probably is from a historical point of view - but when you get used to it does improve the challenge and make the battles more fun. The high morale means that quantity has more of a chance to prevail over quality - attrition slowly brings down the smaller, better armies.
To be honest, BI has similar properties - it is possible to be bushwhacked by greatly superior forces. And even the best armies on a bridge will tend to suffer severe attrition after three or so victories, so they will eventually fold if not reinforced.
Both RTR and BI introduce an element of danger for the player that was usually lacking in vanilla RTW.
[1]In addition, cavalry and missiles are considerably weakened so that usually you have to rely on at least some meat grinding from your infantry to win.
I turned to RTR (v5.41 at that time) right after I finished my Julii, Greeks, Macedonia & Carthage campaign in RTW vanilla. Never turn back since.
I have BI but haven't even finished any of the factions yet. Still enjoying my RTR 6.0 Gold. But the originator of this thread asked what's better BI 0r RTR then I say both. BI & RTR are different gameplay and timeline.
RTR is a mod for vanilla RTW during the rise of Roman Empire. BI represents the end of the Roman Empire (west at least). So I believe none should have been an issue.
As to the one of the 'hostile' replies I read earlier , I simply couldn't understand why a simple question from someone can turn into a flaming mod bashing event.
As for the comparison between EB & RTR , I believe until EB release its final (or more complete version) then a balance comparison could be make. So, hence my installed EB (on another folder) game is still unfinished.
Cheers.
Copperhaired Berserker!
02-06-2006, 17:21
Yes it did waste my time. Plus the whole consept of a realism mod makes me angry.
No there not. I'm always right, end of story. If you disagree your wrong, period.
Don't bother, you'd never raise enough. It would have to be 7 figures at least. Even then I'd just take it and laugh at you for giving it to me.
If you liike EB you do. I have good taste.
Oh, freaking great, another noob on this Earth. Now to finish you off, WITH USELESS QUESTIONS!
Ok, lets see.....
"Yes it did waste my time. Plus the whole consept of a realism mod makes me angry."
First of all, we all waste our time on things that are useless. And there is a lot of useless things. EB isn't an useless thing. It tells you sbout the histroy of the world. They may not be correct in some areas, but they are trying. GIVE THEM SOME CREDIT. So you don't use any mods? All mods are things that deserved to be nuked and forgotten about? No way. So you are telling me, if a supposely realistic game is actually full of goblens with stickheads and that kind of stuff, and a mod comes out making the game at least the tinieist little bit educational, you would flame the mod all the way to hell? JEEZ. You are probably a 10 year-old "Rebel to authority" who hates learning anything and hates genius.
"Don't bother, you'd never raise enough. It would have to be 7 figures at least. Even then I'd just take it and laugh at you for giving it to me."
I'll have to take your life before you get the money and run away. Idiots shouldn't get money. But they do, celebrities are a very good example. You are an even better example.
"If you liike EB you do. I have good taste."
CONTRADICTION ALERT! CONTRADICTION ALERT! You don't know what that means? Go back to preschool. And what determines a good taste from a bad taste. Go on, tell me. If you can't get a good reason, then I'll laugh at your ignorance.
Sorry for the rant, mods. Just got a real bad temper now.
gardibolt
02-06-2006, 17:38
While I have no interest in a realism mod, I can certainly understand why some people might want one, or want to try it out. But there's no reason to besmirch the character and efforts of those who want to put such a thing together. :no:
frogbeastegg
02-06-2006, 17:40
As Nelson said:
The posts in this thread need to talk about specific aspects of BI or RTR. Talk about what you like and what you don’t like. Hurl insults and I will close this. Let's keep it civil.
Unless the moderators here decide otherwise: closed.
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