The latest US Army Torture Techniques

[Idaho]

Warning - grim pictures from Abu Gharib (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444)

What seems strange is that the techniques don't appear to have any modern sophistication to them. Just pain and fear. You would have thought they would have some greater skill or direction to them, rather than just random beatings, humiliation and terrorising.

I seem to recall there are a few posters on here who have little problem with these practices as the people who are tortured and killed are always guilty. In the light of this how do you think the US army could modernise it's techniques and improve results (whatever results were intended - it seems a little difficult to fathom here).

[rory_20_uk]

To do more I imagine would require training. Then you are admitting that you are torturing the people, and that is a big no-no.

Pain and fear are good, as is disorientation and sensory / sleep deprivation. I can only think of a pharmaceutical approach, but again that is possibly crossing the line as you're injecting the subjects against their will.

And after all this time they are:

a) Going to remember clearly details of terrorist setups proior to their arrest
b) Going to have any information that is relevant even if they do still know.

I'm "pleased" that those posters know they're guilty. I imagine that they are of course then pushing for the prisoners to be sent to the mainland to stand trial based on the evidence of their guilt... :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[Duke John]

What seems strange is that the techniques don't appear to have any modern sophistication to them.
As long as some soldiers put their thumbs up when near a tortured human then sophistication is not what they are thinking of.

[Husar]

Isn´t that pretty old already?
I know it´s a nice way to bring freedom, democracy and happiness to the world.:inquisitive:
But isn´t that female soldier on one of the newer(not new) photos already in prison for doing that?
Or am I wrong here?

[Vladimir]

~:rolleyes: Yup, the big bad US torturing poor Iraqi freedom fighters. You do know that people went to jail for this right? How about posting some beheadings for perspective?

[Proletariat]

This isn't 'US Army Torture Techniques.' These were crimes that have already been and in some cases still being prosecuted. Pretty pathetic attempt.

[rory_20_uk]

Yeah, they went to jail, but the US Army hardly lept on the chance to investigate - more forced after denials didn't work.

Yes, the Freedom Fighters behead people. Not nice, but that doesn't mean America can stoop to their level. The IRA enjoyed killing both soldiers and civilians but things only improved when the British stopped playing the same game and made it clear that the IRA were the bad guys (oh, and their donations from overseas were blocked finally...)

Has anything been done to prevent this gross breakdown in discipline int he US Army?

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

This isn't 'US Army Torture Techniques.'Yes it is. The nudity, the dogs, water-boarding, the hooding and the forced standing or hanging with electrodes attached are all torture techniques that the CIA taught at the School of the Americas. They were adopted after Rumsfeld urged harsher interrogation techniques and Gonzales wrote that it couldn't hurt legally because they were alle terrorists anyway. These techniques then 'travelled' from Afghanistan to Guantanamo and from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib, partly because the same CIA, Army and private security personnel were involved in all of these spots.

And beheadings have nothing to do with this. The official Army report acknowledges that seventy to ninety percent of Abu Ghraib prisoners were innocent and just did not have their papers in order.

[Adrian II]

Yes, the Freedom Fighters behead people.What freedom fighters? Criminal or religious gangs maybe, not freedom fighters.

[Sjakihata]

It still amazes me that the US declare war on bad bad Saddam, goes in Iraq and does the same thing to the Iraqis, they must be speechless - metaphorically and literally.

:no:

[Ser Clegane]

I think it would help the discussion if people focused on the actual question that was posed:

In the light of this how do you think the US army could modernise it's techniques and improve results (whatever results were intended - it seems a little difficult to fathom here).
i.e., what might be viable alternatives to inflicting pain and fear in interrogations.

Although the torture topic is an emotional one, I see little merit in just rehashing the "old" discussion about Abu Ghraib (of course the posted link to the pictures seems to be an invitation to do just that).

[Sjakihata]

The best ways are obviously; develop a truth serum or have you lvl 21 druid cast a no lie zone, with a roll of a 20.

seriously, torture is the same old and needs no room for perfection - rather a ban.

[rory_20_uk]

I didn't think that there was much milage in techniques to get the truth out with or without pain to the subject. If it could be done without pain I'd advocate doing it to all suspects as a matter of course; if pain was involved I'd expect trials would become discussion on whether the defendant could be forced to state exactly what happened: if the evidence is convincing enough the defendant is forced to say what happened, and can then be dealt with as required.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

I think it would help the discussion if people focused on the actual question that was posed, i.e., what might be viable alternatives to inflicting pain and fear in interrogations.Different leadership is the alternative.

If you have leaders who encourage harsh techniques, that's what you get: harsh techniques. If you have leaders who want innocents arrested and interrrogated, you get a frustrated staff that vents its frustration on selfsame innocents.

If you want valuable information from suspects or war prisoners, look into the methods of the real experts in interrogation. They have been amply quoted and referred to in the 'old' discussion and you are right we don't need to go there again.

[Franconicus]

Of cause there are other forms of torture than just physical pain. And other ways to get information.

Did anybody read Stefan Zweigs 'Schachnovelle' (propably 'Chess Novel')?

I also read a very interesting book mentioning how the Chinese 'brainwashed' US POW's while the Northern Coreans just tortured them.

Look art the situation. You have some hundreds of prisoner. You think that most of them are terrorists, supporters of terrorists or followers. But you do not know what is the degree of evalness and you do not know how important they are and which information they have.

In most cases torture is caused by fear and frustration. Not to get informations.

So what do you do with them. I guess you do not have enough evidence to put each and everyone to a legal court. But you also do not want to release them. That would only give them a chance to kill again. I guess that is the dilemma of the US government. So it tries to lock them away and to forget them. Torture is once more only a sign of fear and frustration.

I think the best thing the US could do is just brain wash them. Maybe this is not nice, too, but extremly effective and it would solve the problem. After it the US could release hundreds of former fanatics and they are now loving the US and the American Way of Life.

[Vladimir]

Yeah, they went to jail, but the US Army hardly lept on the chance to investigate - more forced after denials didn't work.

The Army was investigating the incident months BEFORE the story broke. The only thing that pushed it to the forefront was the release of pictures. The Army doesn't shamelessly air dirty laundry.


Has anything been done to prevent this gross breakdown in discipline int he US Army?

Yes, they're called laws. Laws that were in place BEFORE the incident. Laws people broke and now are in jail for.

[rory_20_uk]

Erm, we here like the principle of "innocent till proved guilty", although it must be said that you've managed to say that most or indeed all of them are of course guilty.

Brainwash those that are guilty of disagreeing with a point of view... Surely it doesn't take a genius to realise that this is an extremely devisive idea??


Laws are all very well, but there should be a command structure that PREVENTS this not just LAWS to punish.

~:smoking:

[Ser Clegane]

If you want valuable information from suspects or war prisoners, look into the methods of the real experts in interrogation. They have been amply quoted and referred to in the 'old' discussion and you are right we don't need to go there again.

you "sound" slightly touchy here (I might be wrong, though) - my post was meant to keep the thread on topic, even if that topic might have been addressed in a previous thread - and to avoid that the pictures from Abu Ghraib are discussed for literally the umpteenth time, while the actual question is being ignored.

[Adrian II]

you "sound" slightly touchy here Sorry for that, it wasn't meant to be. :bow:

[Xiahou]

This isn't 'US Army Torture Techniques.' These were crimes that have already been and in some cases still being prosecuted. Pretty pathetic attempt.
Indeed. This is very old news and has been the subject of numerous threads already. There is nothing "latest" about it.


I think it would help the discussion if people focused on the actual question that was posed:I'm pretty sure that wasn't a serious question seeing as how it was directed at those who seem to think 'that torture and killing is ok because they're all guilty anyhow' and asking them on how they'd improve their techniques.

I'm really not at all sure what the point of this thread is. Certainly, if he wanted to take a shot at the US Army, he could've tried to find something more recent. :rolleyes:

[Ser Clegane]

Sorry for that, it wasn't meant to be. :bow:

No problem ~:) (perhaps it's just me as I tend to get more touchy over the course of the week)


I'm pretty sure that wasn't a serious question seeing as how it was directed at those who seem to think 'that torture and killing is ok because they're all guilty anyhow' and asking them on how they'd improve their techniques.

You might be (actually you probably are) correct - but I think my "interpretation" of the question might lead to a more meaningful discussion ~;)

[Franconicus]

Brainwash those that are guilty of disagreeing with a point of view... Surely it doesn't take a genius to realise that this is an extremely devisive idea??


Laws are all very well, but there should be a command structure that PREVENTS this not just LAWS to punish.

~:smoking:
Rory,
We are not talking about moral but about techniques, right? Just wanted to show that there are more effective ways than physical abuse.

By the way, what is 'devisive'

[Redleg]

I seem to recall there are a few posters on here who have little problem with these practices as the people who are tortured and killed are always guilty. In the light of this how do you think the US army could modernise it's techniques and improve results (whatever results were intended - it seems a little difficult to fathom here).

To address the issue. An article that shows that the corrective steps are being taken by the Governmental agency that has oversite on what the military does.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1216/p03s01-uspo.html

Now if you do a search of the bills in Congress right now - you will discover numerous bills being introduced. However I am still waiting to see the one that is mentioned in the article actually make it into the active bill listing. My recent searches of the Congressional database yeilds a negative result in bringing up a bill that matches what the article seems to be saying.

Now to what the Army seems to be doing to educate and train leaders to actually lead, and use proper intergation techniques

http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/june_2005/6_05_1.html


The critical importance of civilian control of the military, rigid adherence to the rule of law, and accountability of soldiers for their actions are just a few of the lessons we can draw from a comparison of these two wars. Perhaps the most important of these lessons is that in a low-intensity conflict, a key-if not the key-operational center of gravity and balance is domestic public opinion and the retention of legitimacy. Because of the nature of war itself, particularly in a LIC environment, soldiers and governments must remain true to legal principles and not descend into brutality. In Algiers in 1957, the French Army descended to that level, playing into the terrorists' hands and costing the government its popular mandate and, eventually, the war. The responsibility for those actions rests squarely with the Fourth Republic's civilian leaders.

In contrast, by consistently attempting to hold to a legal and fully accountable prosecution of warfare, the British Government and military in Northern Ireland have retained the public's mandate to prosecute the war and might yet see it to a successful conclusion. While such a strict adherence to the principles of law and legitimacy might considerably lengthen a campaign, the lessons of the long British experience in Northern Ireland suggest that a longer campaign might be the only way to ensure success.


THe most recent press breifing by the Sec of the Army.


Q Dr. Harvey, Congress recently passed legislation on the inhumane treatment of detainees. In that, they referred to the Army Field Manual as the guiding document. The Army finished -- at least its initial drop last year. Can you talk about what the discussion, the debate is at this point on how to finish that, how to make it agree with the legislation and -- or comply with the legislation, and also how it will address the Guantanamo issue?



SEC. HARVEY: Sure. And I'm not going to get into any details of it, but let me just mention, we do have -- for some reason, unbeknownst to me, nobody reports that we do have an Army Field Manual. Its number is 3452, and so it exists. And it is compliant with all applicable U.S. laws, DoD directives and policies, and it's consistent with the principle of humane treatment, and it certainly prohibits torture. So there is a manual.

What we're doing -- is the process of lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan from a totally different war that we're involved in -- we -- like we do everything else, we continue to improve it. So the current upgraded or improved manual, which goes under the number, as you know, 2-22.3 was being prepared last year, and with the onset of the McCain amendment as part of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2006, it became clear that this was more than an Army manual; this is a DoD manual now. Therefore, I think to be fair about it we needed to have a coordination and review by all services because it applies to everybody.

So the decision by the secretary of Defense was made that, one, that we in a sense are an executive agent. This is going to be a DoD- wide manual that the whole DoD needed to get involved in the review, which they are -- have and are. The initial review is over. Revisions and suggestions are being incorporated, and it'll go out for final review as -- almost as we speak. And I expect the forecast is for -- to be published within one to two months. So that's where it is.

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2006/tr20060118-12331.html

A copy of the current manual can be found here

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/

Will have to wait awhile to see if the rewrite corrects or changes procedures alreadly in the current manual.

So in essence the answer to your question Idaho it seems that modernization of techniques is going to be forced by Congress on the Department of Defense. Time will tell if corrections and changes to existing methods happen.

It seems that some leaders in the Military are also attempting to help steer the military in the right direction in their professional writings. Which is a good thing in my opinion.

Now until the new manual comes out, I won't be able to tell what training and methods is actually being done. That information is not available to me.

[Redleg]

No problem ~:) (perhaps it's just me as I tend to get more touchy over the course of the week)



You might be (actually you probably are) correct - but I think my "interpretation" of the question might lead to a more meaningful discussion ~;)

And I responded in light of your interpretation of the orginal question.

[Spetulhu]

We are not talking about moral but about techniques, right? Just wanted to show that there are more effective ways than physical abuse.

Get some of the old KGB interrogators to handle things. They were quite good at getting information and confessions. People would happily admit their guilt even to crimes the KGB had carried out.

[Samurai Waki]

Oh, come on! you're telling me they're getting worse abuse there than at American Prisons, I would call you a liar. Convicts at American Prisons are hazed and humiliated on almost disturbing scale. At the state Prison in North Dakota, there is a large pole stick out in the middle of the central court yard, when a prisoner doesn't behave, they undress him, and tie him up to the pole for a couple of days. You have to keep in mind, that these people aren't good people, and they don't deserve any better treatment.

[Don Corleone]

That raises an interesting point, Wakizashi. Despite Idaho's thread title, there's not really any 'new' news here. What's more, despite what Europeans think they know about American prisons, the truth is far probably far worse. Isn't Gregoshi a prison guard? Maybe he'd care to comment as to how bad the treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib was compared to the treatment of inmates at our maximum secuirty correctional facilities?

[Watchman]

Get some of the old KGB interrogators to handle things. They were quite good at getting information and confessions. People would happily admit their guilt even to crimes the KGB had carried out.At one point at least they also had a particular miracle of Really Existing Socialism usually referred to as "pre-printed confession". Although that *was* during Stalin's Great Terror, which he had to call off so as not to totally cripple his own empire...

The KGB folks were actually in a bit of a pinch when after WW2 they were suddenly charged with actually interrogating high-ranking German prisoners to find out the truth about various things (say, Hitler's death) and not just torturing them to get suitable confessions. Bit of a methodological problem, that.

[Redleg]

That raises an interesting point, Wakizashi. Despite Idaho's thread title, there's not really any 'new' news here. What's more, despite what Europeans think they know about American prisons, the truth is far probably far worse. Isn't Gregoshi a prison guard? Maybe he'd care to comment as to how bad the treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib was compared to the treatment of inmates at our maximum secuirty correctional facilities?

My brother has told me enough about his experience being in prison in possibly one of the toughest in the nation. The Oklahoma State Prison in Macallester.

In otherwords I don't agree with what the prison guards did, and they should be punished for their actions. Just like some of the activities of prison guards in the United States correctional facialites I don't agree with. The individuals in prison are convicted criminals and should be treated with great restrictions to their personal freedoms, but that does not mean that the guards need to futher de-humanize them, to make themselves feel better.

Just like the commanders directly responsible for those soldiers should be held responsible for thier failure to command and control their unit.

(Which is being done and is also currently still ongoing)

In the scope of Idaho's initial question as interpetated by Ser Clegane the current system has been shown to have a glaring weakness that must be corrected. And it seems that several within both the civilian chain of command and military leaders would agree with that assessment.

Its a shameful thing to excuse bad behavior of soldiers who are suppose to preform thier duties in the professional manner in which they were trained, by pointing out other bad behaviors.

[Soulforged]

You have to keep in mind, that these people aren't good people, and they don't deserve any better treatment.No. And it doesn't matter if you want to give me the reason or not, all humans are protected by law, all man maintain certain morallity wich is lacking in your comment and in the actions of this people.

About the article: It seemed a little acted? Well I'll just assume that all this is real. The torturers give me a lot of fear...People talk about badness and they actually see their laughing faces while torturing another human being? It's not just a sad contradiction, but it's obscene, perverted and deeply corrupted.

About the question: In the light of this how do you think the US army could modernise it's techniques and improve resultsThis seems sarcastic...Well I hope that there's no more torture, but that's a tad idealist of course. If by techniques you were refering to torture. Also if that's what you mean, torture doesn't get results it only hurts in pointless manner.


Its a shameful thing to excuse bad behavior of soldiers who are suppose to preform thier duties in the professional manner in which they were trained, by pointing out other bad behaviors.Couldn't agree more.

[Ironside]

That raises an interesting point, Wakizashi. Despite Idaho's thread title, there's not really any 'new' news here. What's more, despite what Europeans think they know about American prisons, the truth is far probably far worse. Isn't Gregoshi a prison guard? Maybe he'd care to comment as to how bad the treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib was compared to the treatment of inmates at our maximum secuirty correctional facilities?

Does it matter?

Does the comment "Oh, yeah it's way worse in our prisons" defend the treatment in Abu Grahib or cast a poor light on the treatment of US prisoners?

Likewise, if the comment is "Oh, it's about the same" comes up, the million dollar question is: Why does the Iraqi without proper paper get put into a maximum security prison on a standard basis? If this is counted into the penalty in the US, then what society is created, were people are punished (not detained) for not having proper papers and for looking "suspicious"?

[Rodion Romanovich]

The official Army report acknowledges that seventy to ninety percent of Abu Ghraib prisoners were innocent and just did not have their papers in order.




what might be viable alternatives to inflicting pain and fear in interrogations.


I can imagine how embarrassing it must be that most of the interrogations end with the conclusion that the guy is innocent... :no: Considering how many are innocent maybe they should do the interrogation in the opposite way?

Interrogator: "Tell me you're innocent! We KNOW you're innocent!"
Victim: "No, no, I swear I'm guilty!"
Interrogator: "Ha! Just you wait until I've worked on you for an hour, you WILL admit the truth!"
Victim: "No, no, not the waterboarding or being bitten by dogs! Please no! I'll tell everything, I mean EVERYTHING!"
Interrogator: "So spit it out!"
Victim: "It's just my papers that aren't in order"
Interrogator: "See, that wasn't hard, was it?"
Victim: "Please let me go now!"
Interrogator: "No, we can't let you go! You might be hiding other information from us! You might not be fully convinced to speak the truth to get rid of the pain until you've felt it!" Turns around... "Buddy, can you get that camera for this part, the kids really wanted some souvernirs and I don't want to disappoint them"
Victim: "aaaaaaaaaaaaa!"
Interrogator: "Not 'aaaaaaaa', say cheese, you're on photo! Ah, it's a little to dark in here, Buddy please give me that ISO1200, not the ISO400, it just gets all messy and dark."
Buddy: "Ehm, is it really such a good idea to take photos of this?"
Interrogator: "Eh... what?"
Buddy: "Never mind, let's get started. I'll get a few beers. Don't start without me!"

[Papewaio]

Apart from individuals in both the USA and British army who took photos of torture ,which were subsequently released to the public, has anyone else been prosecuted for such acts?

Or is it a case of only those stupid enough to torture would be stupid enough to photograph it in 100% of the incidents?

I would assume only a subset of the tortures are photographed, and only a small portion of those get leaked to the public.

So I assume that those prosecuted so far are only the very tip of the iceberg.

Meaning there is a gross breakdown in command or quite the opposite. The second option being the worst.

[Redleg]

Apart from individuals in both the USA and British army who took photos of torture ,which were subsequently released to the public, has anyone else been prosecuted for such acts?

Or is it a case of only those stupid enough to torture would be stupid enough to photograph it in 100% of the incidents?

I would assume only a subset of the tortures are photographed, and only a small portion of those get leaked to the public.

So I assume that those prosecuted so far are only the very tip of the iceberg.

Meaning there is a gross breakdown in command or quite the opposite. The second option being the worst.

Several officers have been removed from command postions but as for prosecution for negilence or abuse - I have not seen any reports from the prison.

THere was a warrant officer given a trail for wrongful death of a POW under intergation. But the court with with minimum sentence. Can't remember exactly what the conviction was for.

[orangat]

I posted on this topic somewhere else.
Some links which may be of interest:-
Former CACI employee and interrogator talks about chaotic conditions.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/12/1420257
Culture of releasophobia keeping children and innocent in jail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4339511.stm
Delgado video interview about the systematic breakdown of discipline, widespread torture and general culture of racial superiority (as opposed to the view that there are only a few bad apples). This 2 links are gems.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7508.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8441.htm

[Just A Girl]

It still amazes me that the US declare war on bad bad Saddam, goes in Iraq and does the same thing to the Iraqis, they must be speechless - metaphorically and literally.

:no:


I guess that Means We need to take The tyrant who's runnig the US Down!

[Xiahou]

Apart from individuals in both the USA and British army who took photos of torture ,which were subsequently released to the public, has anyone else been prosecuted for such acts?

Or is it a case of only those stupid enough to torture would be stupid enough to photograph it in 100% of the incidents?

I would assume only a subset of the tortures are photographed, and only a small portion of those get leaked to the public.

So I assume that those prosecuted so far are only the very tip of the iceberg.

Meaning there is a gross breakdown in command or quite the opposite. The second option being the worst.Actually, guards at Abu Ghraib were under investigation long before the press go ahold of the pictures. So that assertion, at least, is incorrect.

[Idaho]

Actually, guards at Abu Ghraib were under investigation long before the press go ahold of the pictures. So that assertion, at least, is incorrect.

That old chesnut. Find any expose/scandal/etc and the organisation being exposed will always say "well we were in the middle of investigating the very same thing". It's bawls.

[Fragony]

Those the latest techniques? These pictures are teh old.