The War on Opera

[Lemur]

I don't understand why the blow-hards at Fox haven't caught on to the war on opera. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060202/ap_en_tv/faust_video) Why can't we protect our children from this heinous art form? And while we're at it, why on earth are we teaching school children to read stuff about teen sex and suicide, e.g., Romeo and Juliet?


'Faust' Opera Video Stirs Angry Parents

Some parents in this prairie town are angry with an elementary school music teacher for showing pupils a video about the opera "Faust," whose title character sells his soul to the devil in exchange for being young again.

"Any adult with common sense would not think that video was appropriate for a young person to see. I'm not sure it's appropriate for a high school student," Robby Warner said after two of her children saw the video.

Another parent, Casey Goodwin, said, "I think it glorifies Satan in some way."

Tresa Waggoner showed approximately 250 first-, second- and third-graders at Bennett Elementary portions of a 33-year-old series titled "Who's Afraid of Opera" a few weeks ago.

The video features the soprano Dame Joan Sutherland and three puppet friends discussing Gounod's "Faust." Waggoner thought it would be a good introduction to opera.

Her critics questioned the decision to show children a portrayal of the devil, Mephistopheles, along with a scene showing a man being killed by a sword and a reference to suicide.

School Superintendent George Sauter said the teacher should not have shown the video to children below the fourth grade but will not lose her job. She has sent letter of apology to all elementary school parents in Bennett, population 2,400 and about 25 miles east of Denver on Colorado's eastern plains.

"I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I've learned that," Waggoner said in Sunday's editions of The Denver Post. "However, from what has been said about me, that I'm a Satan worshipper, my character, I can't believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera."

Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn't expect to stay in town.

"I know I'm not accepted here, that I'm not welcome here by the parents," she said. "It's a very uncomfortable position."

[Sasaki Kojiro]

1st 2nd and 3rd grade? And they think the kids actually watched the opera?

[Spetulhu]

Another parent, Casey Goodwin, said, "I think it glorifies Satan in some way."

Opera is devil worship? I'll have to show my representatives this so they'll stop public funding for opera! Then the millions we save can be used for something sensible, like aiding young musicians who might some day become great export items.

Nah, rock and heavy metal are satanic too. Let's just drink the money.

[Divinus Arma]

It so absolutely clear that religion is ultimately a destructive force.

[AntiochusIII]

It so absolutely clear that religion is ultimately a destructive force.From DA's mouth!!!

Wow, it MUST be destructive, then. And in this case...dumbasses they are, doubting centuries-old folklore-based literature for freaking satanism.

"Now on FOXNEWS...British magical star Harry Potter is charged with satanism...AGAIN...along with David Copperfield..." :laugh4:

[Divinus Arma]

From DA's mouth!!!



What the hell are you talking about? I never pretended to be a zealot.

I am a constitutional conservative only. I abhor the religious hijacking of the Republican Party by the "religious right" and the consequential transformation from constitutional conservatism to social conservatism.

Social conservatism is crap. It goes back to the monkey/banana/cage theory; doing things because that is just the way it has always been done.

[AntiochusIII]

What the hell are you talking about? I never pretended to be a zealot.

I am a constitutional conservative only. I abhor the religious hijacking of the Republican Party by the "religious right" and the consequential transformation from constitutional conservatism to social conservatism.

Social conservatism is crap. It goes back to the monkey/banana/cage theory; doing things because that is just the way it has always been done.Oh...

wow. You learn something new everyday and night. Sorry, then. Don't take offense.

[Kralizec]

I can see why they wouldn't want to show it to elementary school kids, but the rest is ridiculous.

[Divinus Arma]

Oh...

wow. You learn something new everyday and night. Sorry, then. Don't take offense.

No offense taken. You liberal socialist freedom-hating cheesemonkey. :laugh4:

[Major Robert Dump]

For some reason when people mention opera, I think of Dom Deluese. I would totally support a war on Dom Deluese.

[InsaneApache]

I thought that Mozilla and IE had invaded the net browser. Then again this is even more ridiculous.

[ShadesPanther]

Probably the younger ones shouldn't have seen it. (Although I doubt they really watched it) Beyond that I don't see a problem.

Spetulhu
You missed out pop music which is mind controlling the children, and of course jazz. The name just reeks of satan worshipping. ~:)

[solypsist]

if this gets any more personal (you know who you are) then expect a locked thread.

[InsaneApache]

~:eek:
if this gets any more personal (you know who you are) then expect a locked thread.

Flippin' heck Dom Deluese has complained to a mod...~:eek:

[BDC]

Let's just drink the money.

Truely the answer to all these silly problems.

[Duke Malcolm]

The poor man... He should have stuck to the Marriage of Figaro...

[Hurin_Rules]

Dr. Faustus is an extended sermon in favour of Christianity and against devil worship. Anyone who argues it glorifies Satan is just plain ignorant.

[Soulforged]

Dr. Faustus is an extended sermon in favour of Christianity and against devil worship. Anyone who argues it glorifies Satan is just plain ignorant.
That's usually the case. Bang Bang You're Death (http://www.nndb.com/films/276/000091003/).
Ignorancy is the root of intolerance in most cases. Here it's bold faced. I wonder how an actual War on Opera will display, I mean, I can imagine the government putting cameras everywhere and then reaching for the original places in the world to stop their production, it will be frankly hilarious, not that's related to the topic of course.

[Slyspy]

Opera is an evil thing. It glorifies big fat German sopranos. As for the subject matter, perhaps the parents would benefit more from an intoduction to opera than their sprogs. Lets hope that the kids continue to be better educated than their parents.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hey Soul', give us a break, we'uns here in the USA specialize in ignorance.:laugh4:

Seriously, though, grand thematic opera for kidlings just past the "Dora the Explorer" stage? I'd be happier with a little Aaron Copeland and some more effort on the proper use and spelling of various nouns and verbs.

Heavens to mergatroids, many of you complain about the actions/policies of the USA now. If we healed most of my countrymen's ignorance about the world around them, you have no IDEA just how ornery we might get. You should be thankful that more yanks are worried about Angelina Jolie's impending whelping than about anything substantive.

[Slyspy]

While I suspect that the subject may indeed be too advanced for these backwoods hick kids I should point otu that, in the article referenced above, this is not the primary complaint of the parents. Besides which one mother appears to be called Robby. If their parents cannot even get their offspring's gender right then what hope for the next generation?

[AntiochusIII]

if this gets any more personal (you know who you are) then expect a locked thread.Aw, com'on. It's not like me and DA are serious and on each other's throat. ~;) After all, I am a liberal, a socialist, a cheese-lover, a descendant of monkeys, and hates freedom! ~D

...

And why is Faust inappropriate for children? Because the Devil is in there? Since hE probably is not real or is having an abusive relationship with Saddam, I suggest whoever is a Satanist to sues the bloody parents for money because they offend your beliefs...and you get money! :idea2:

[Azi Tohak]

One of the silliest threads I have seen in a while, I do find the thought of a kids watching Faust very funny. I bet the Devil was dressed in a big purple dinosaur suit, and Faust just happens to be a gigantic yellow bird.

Is it just me or is this whole article more proof that people will complain about anything? And if that is the case, why is this stuff reported? Surely there has to be something more worthy (like people dying, or tortured turtles).

Azi

[Lemur]

One of the silliest threads I have seen in a while.
We aim to please.

[Paul Peru]

Let's burn them all!!:charge: :charge: :jumping: :jumping:


I'd like to keep a few of the ouvertures, though. No German Screeching Women there :2thumbsup:

[Spetulhu]

On the other hand, why is anyone surprised? I hear SuperBowl censured the Rolling Stones! A couple of lines in their songs were "suggestive". :eyebrows:

[Divinus Arma]

Aw, com'on. It's not like me and DA are serious and on each other's throat. ~;) After all, I am a liberal, a socialist, a cheese-lover, a descendant of monkeys, and hates freedom! ~D

I agree with AntiochusIII. He IS a liberal, socialist, cheese-loving decendant of monkeys who hates freedom! :laugh4:

And both of us agree on the cheese-monkey thing. Right on!

*Tries to high-five AntiochusIII who withdraws hand at the last moment*

Son of a...!

[AntiochusIII]

I agree with AntiochusIII. He IS a liberal, socialist, cheese-loving decendant of monkeys who hates freedom! :laugh4:

And both of us agree on the cheese-monkey thing. Right on!

*Tries to high-five AntiochusIII who withdraws hand at the last moment*

Son of a...!Pft! Such slow reaction! We monkeys are way better at that. Now, now, let's have cheese...

*realizes he's ruining the thread, fearing Soly will close it*

Aaaaanyway. Back to topic.

Although we can pretty much all agree the parents are God-fearing idiots (note: the two can be mutually exclusive) from small-town trailerpark America. But, seriously, what are your opinions of how far the parents should have their authority over the kids?

[Divinus Arma]

But, seriously, what are your opinions of how far the parents should have their authority over the kids?

Actually you raise a very important question here. Who has the right to raise our children, the gov or the parents?

Clearly in some instances parents are complete and utter morons. You mentioned trailer park trash. I would also offer illegal immigrant families and urban welfare mothers.

Really, the question is: Who's children are these? Are they humanity's children? Or the parents child?


An example of contradiction:

The government does not allow a parent to physically punish a child, but allows the murder of that child before its birth.

I bring this up because it is fundamental to your question. If it is "humanity's" child, then clearly we must not allow the child to be murdered just as we would not want it to be raised through violence.

If it is the parnet's child, then we are allowed to both slay it before birth and offer up violence as a form of corrective discipline.


Clearly, rational minds must find middle ground here. But where is that misddle ground? Should the government be responsible for telling us what values we should instill in our children? If so, then who ultimately decides the values of the government if the government chooses values for us?

[AntiochusIII]

Actually you raise a very important question here. Who has the right to raise our children, the gov or the parents?Obviously not the government as-is. If one is to choose the former, it would more likely be society--and thus the government as society's agent, otherwise, if the government acts on its own merits, then it is, in my opinion, overstepping the boundaries of its authority.

We are not Lycurgus' Spartans anymore, in other words. We don't need superhuman robots.

However, I don't have time to ponder the question yet, so I cannot answer it. It...involves...personal matter, in fact, now that I think of it. And is an important question that might've been answered somewhere within all those social contract theories.

Really, the question is: Who's children are these? Are they humanity's children? Or the parents child?All I can say is, if we are to agree on the latter, the parents' child will then be subject to the parents' whim, but if we are on the former, then individual rights on this matter are baseless and we would move towards a more conforming (in a Confucius sense) society.

An example of contradiction:

The government does not allow a parent to physically punish a child, but allows the murder of that child before its birth.

I bring this up because it is fundamental to your question. If it is "humanity's" child, then clearly we must not allow the child to be murdered just as we would not want it to be raised through violence.

If it is the parnet's child, then we are allowed to both slay it before birth and offer up violence as a form of corrective discipline.Let's not go into Abortion here. It will only cloud up the perspective of possible participants.

Clearly, rational minds must find middle ground here. But where is that misddle ground? Should the government be responsible for telling us what values we should instill in our children? If so, then who ultimately decides the values of the government if the government chooses values for us?The government has no right whatsoever in forcing values onto us, at least in the United States' form of social contract, presumably based on Locke's. However, applying to this case: is it right if those parents will instill racism, nazism, or whatever supremacy crap into a child because the children belongs in their authority? If not, who will replace them in choosing the values in which a child would grow up with?

Just to clarify my question.

[Divinus Arma]

All I can say is, if we are to agree on the latter, the parents' child will then be subject to the parents' whim, but if we are on the former, then individual rights on this matter are baseless and we would move towards a more conforming (in a Confucius sense) society.

I understand your concept of government as society's agent. The problem with that is those with power will always acquire more power until a more perfect democracy with greater checks on the government. I think a good example of this is the recent legislation in British Columbia, whereby a volunteer citizens assembly is selected for the sole purpose of drawing districts. But the minutia of governance is beside the point here. You say that a more conforming society would model confucian thought. Ideally yes. The problem is as I stated; power breeds power. Party affiliation is irrelevant.

So, then, in pointing out a problem, let me offer a solution. The power has to be decentralized in order to ensure proper checks and prevent consolidation of authority and consequent abuse.

Either way, would you disagree that individual liberty takes precedence until that liberty takes the form of cruelty?


Let's not go into Abortion here. It will only cloud up the perspective of possible participants.

I understand your point, but I find the issue linked. I think so long as the discussion keep the context in mind, then it is controllable. If the discussion focuses solely on abortion, then it is lost. My point is in relating the two opposite ends of the spectrum with total individual liberty at one end and total governmental power at the other. On one end parents may kill their children if they see fit. On the other hand, government can do what it sees fit with young life regardless of natural individual parental instinct.


The government has no right whatsoever in forcing values onto us, at least in the United States' form of social contract, presumably based on Locke's. However, applying to this case: is it right if those parents will instill racism, nazism, or whatever supremacy crap into a child because the children belongs in their authority? If not, who will replace them in choosing the values in which a child would grow up with?


It IS a valid question, deontological in so far as it questions the balance of morality between the individual vs. the state. And, again, I view the abortion issue as linked because the morality of infanticide and feticide is directly related to the question of state vs. individual control of parental obligation and choice. How can the government refuse the will to terminate pregnancy but allow corporal punishment? Or vice versa; how can the government allow the individual right to end fetal life but then prohibit corporal punishment? Why is death acceptable, but physical discipline is not?

Extending from this and speaking on the the parallel point here: Who is it then that determines values? I question whether religion is any different from social concepts of totalitarianism and intolernace when religion teaches us to exclude. Worse yet, I fear that an absence of religion is worse because if laws(values) do not come from God, then they are always only relative and therefore subject to change with impunity.

[A.Saturnus]

Dr. Faustus is an extended sermon in favour of Christianity and against devil worship. Anyone who argues it glorifies Satan is just plain ignorant.

Which probably would have pissed off Goethe big deal.