Thousands of Katrina Evacuees Booted From Hotels

[Divinus Arma]

Thousands of Katrina Evacuees Booted From Hotels (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184156,00.html)

What do you folks think of this?

[Crazed Rabbit]

"We've bent over backward to reach out. We've gone door-to-door to all of the 25,000 hotel rooms no fewer than six times. And there are individuals who have refused to come to the door, refused to answer. There are people who have run when they saw us coming — those are the ones that are now moving on," Kinerney said.

Can't say I'm that sympathetic.

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

Can't say I'm that sympathetic.

Crazed Rabbit

On the other hand:


Brittany Brown, 21, wept as she explained that although she had been given an extension, eviction was now looming next week. She applied for a trailer in October and, although she keeps calling, her trailer has yet to show up.

[Redleg]

Thousands of Katrina Evacuees Booted From Hotels (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184156,00.html)

What do you folks think of this?

If the report is accurate - it seems that FEMA attempted to get the individuals in question to file for an extension.

As with any governmental service that is provided to the individual at the taxpayer expensive - procedures are in place to help prevent abuse. (they don't always work nor are they always followed). If the evacuee failed to respond to the solication by FEMA to file for a request, then I see it as an individual's problem. If FEMA is not reporting the truth and did not do as the story stated, then shame on FEMA.

You missed the important part Rabbit.


Far more people — a total of more than 20,000 storm victims — were given extensions by FEMA until at least next week and possibly as long as March 1, said FEMA spokesman Butch Kinerney.

FEMA said it gave people every possible opportunity to request an extension.

[Major Robert Dump]

I say good. Months after the hurricane and thousand of people -- people who are living rent free, and having their food (and other things) paid for with a FEMA debit card -- still haven't managed to get off their asses and find work, find an apartment and stop leeching. That, or they do have work and figured they would stay as long as possible in an effort to save up as much as possible, but I seriously doubt the latter because that would show too much cleverness.

Of the tens of thousands staying in the hotels and motels, 5000 of them did not file for the March extension and have to leave. Boo hoo. You would think not having to work to pay rent and buy food would leave one enough time to make a flippin phone call to FEMA or send a letter asking for an extension. I hope news cameras show up and film these folks getting removed by deputies, because they probably won't leave without a fight.

And the ones who have filed for extension to march have also been there too long IMO. 500+ million dollars in rooms, 80,000 people (down to 20,000 now), late FEMA payments to motel owners which could be the difference between a small business living or dying.....I think I lost my sympathy somewhere along the way.

And on a related note, the first murder in Oklahoma City in 2006 was committed by a Katrina evacuee living in a free motel room in Norman.

[Proletariat]

Yanno, alotta these guys didn't have homes before the hurricane. Just sayin'

[Major Robert Dump]

On the other hand:


The "trailer" she "applied" for is more free housing, the same as the "motel" she is "squatting" in. What the hell has she been doing for the last 2 months she cant save up 600 dollars and put a deposit on an apartment and move in. You could make 600 dollars working for minimum wage part time for one month, and very few places pay minimum wage. Wal-mart hires retarded kids, I'm sure it would hire her. Get a job

[Major Robert Dump]

Anyone want to take bets as to whether small hotel/motel owners close their doors and take a "vacation" or decide its time to renovate the entire building in the days preceding the next hurricane?

To make matters worse, these people scare off all the decent customers. Instead of getting people who are renting a room, using your vending machines, eating at restraunts and buying souviniers, you get 4 guys living in a hallway by a friends room because they never registered. That's GREAT for business, I'm sure a lot of people passed the motel by and decided to sleep in their car at a truckstop instead.

[Divinus Arma]

I feel like this is kind of related. (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm) The reason being that a large majority of these evacuees are black.

I think that this quote especially applies here without too much conjecture:


"But Coretta knew, and we know," Lowery continued, "That there are weapons of misdirection right down here," he said, nodding his head toward the row of presidents past and present. "For war, billions more, but no more for the poor!" The crowd again cheered wildly.

Do you think that black leaders would want to continue providing for the evacuees? I think that is pretty much self-answering.
Perhaps the better question would be: How long do you think the black leaders would want the Federal Government to pay for Evacuees?

[Major Robert Dump]

Ask a black motel owner, I'm sure you would get an interesting answer.

Better yet, ask the 50,000 evacuees who aren't staying in the motels anymore.

Rather than whining and carrying on, evacuess should have seen this as a golden opportunity to get back on their feet and possibly even improve on what they had. Working full time for 3 months while NOT having to pay rent or the day to day costs of clothes and food would enable anyone to save thousands of dollars at even the lowest wage. This money could then be used to find a home, buy a vehicle, even relocate. And all the taxes they pay on the money they will get back because of disaster relief effort.

Evicting them isn't sick. What's sick is crying like no one has given them any help they let a golden opportunity pass them by.

[Divinus Arma]

Where are all the liberals who would normally be screaming about this right now?

Where is AdrianII? Tribesman? Legio ulpaIIIvixtirxwhateverwhateveryouhavealongname? Where is Hurin_Rules? Lemur? TAchikaze? Zorba?

You guys would all normally be in support of giving these disenfranchised, poor, unskilled, oppressed peoples a free ride for life... Where are you now when they need you most? The republican administered government is evicting homeless evacuees that are victims of a hurricane that Bush knew was coming all along and indirectly caused because of global warming! They are being thrown into the street to die and all they did was wake up and discover a Cat4 hurricane destroyed their home! Victims of a mismanaged rescue and relief effort! Victims of republican mismanagement! Victims of the evil conspiring imperial Bush puppet of Cheney!

[Strike For The South]

great now ebonics and spainish are going to be requried courses in my school. Damn:no:

[Byzantine Prince]

You guys would all normally be in support of giving these disenfranchised, poor, unskilled, oppressed peoples a free ride for life... Where are you now when they need you most? The republican administered government is evicting homeless evacuees that are victims of a hurricane that Bush knew was coming all along and indirectly caused because of global warming! They are being thrown into the street to die and all they did was wake up and discover a Cat4 hurricane destroyed their home! Victims of a mismanaged rescue and relief effort! Victims of republican mismanagement! Victims of the evil conspiring imperial Bush puppet of Cheney!
It is quite clear to me that you believe every word and yet you do not care. :no:

Let's face it everything you listed are facts. The last part is somewhat of a stretch but it isn't far from the truth either.

[Major Robert Dump]

Egads,

this liberal likes to call a turd a turd. the liberalism i believe in has nothing to do with enfranchising those who choose to be disenfranchised by their lack of motivation and unwillingless to help themselves. it's about more than a person's individuality and dignity, iTs about having a country that functions, where people are productive and compete even in the face of hardship, where people avoid making their entire family -- kids, grandkids and greatgrandkids -- wards of the state, where people avoid succumbing to the entitlement monster and avoid creating vast sprawling ghettos that stagnate and rot, all while blaming the man. welfare is for hardtimes, not a career choice. that being said, the only way i would ever get elected anywhere as a democrat would be oklahoma....

[rory_20_uk]

Assuming that the Federal Goverment did allow extensions, I think that those that have not managed to do so should be evicted. They've had a long time now to get their act in order (am I right in thinking it's one form to fill in??!?) and after several months they've not done so.

We have a very similar situation to this in the UK, and as a doctor it really irritates me:

Ride in by ambulance: £500
Each night in hospital £300
Drugs, misc: various - easily in the £'00s

For what? Well, we get several alcoholics who use the A&E as a B&B - a £300 a night B&B mind you! And I could reel off a very long list of some of the things I've had to sort out that if there was even a slight cost to the user they'd not have come in. One that really comes to mind was someone who called the hospital at 12.10AM to ask how long was the que in A&E. Is it me, but if it's an emergency you'd not care???

There are those that do play chicken with the state: take all they can and basically then weep that the Big Bad Goverment is victimising them...

NO: you're lazy, selfish and are in many cases should not require aid for this long. Yes, it's the easy option, but at the end of the day the state is here to help those who CAN NOT help themselves :furious3:

~:smoking:

[KukriKhan]

So posters here have accepted that New Orleans is NOT going to be rebuilt any time soon, and feel that the evacuees should do the same - quit dreaming that they can go back; quit hoping that tomorrow's the day when 'the man' says: "Come on back; we cleaned up!", and just re-start their lives wherever they find themselves? Is that about it?

[rory_20_uk]

Yes, that's life. People get up and move on. I think that it speaks of how comfortable America has been that this in itself is almost unthinkable. If Europe had sat down and waited to be rebuilt after WW2 we'd still be sitting! Yes, things are never going to be the same again, lives do get uprooted by natural disasters (ask the Tsunami victims - those that survived, that is).

Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for one's own life. By the sound of it that's something that the people being evicted have never bothered to learn.

~:smoking:

[KukriKhan]

You make some good points, except the "never bothered to learn" bit, IMO. That assumes wilfull ignorance, which I think doesn't apply here. The unsteady, mixed-signals coming from all levels of gov't, as reported in the media (the primary source of information they have) could have lead the evacuees to believe that their wisest course would be to wait until some leader - preferably the Big Leader who can actually make things happen, not the dithering nabobs locally - said it was safe to come back.

What if I got that minimum wage job in Huntsville Alabama, and took out a year's lease on an apartment - only to be told next week: "Your trailer is ready; come on back. You must return in 30 days, or it goes to the next in line."?

[rory_20_uk]

Life ain't fair. With whatever we do in life that argument can be used: the pensioners at Enron got equally shafted when the company went down the plug hole - and they were doing what good little workers do (saving for the future).

To wait for the ideal time to do something is to never do anything. Does one buy a house now, or wait for the housing market to crash - ow maybe it won't crash... Marry now, but a "better" partner might be around the next corner, get this job, but the next interview might be along tomorrow...

Possibly saying they "never bothered to learn" was OTT, but I believe I am right that they have one hell of a lot of free time in their day, as they don't work. I imagine that the messages were not that clear, but the fact they've not secured the roof over their heads implies they did not try to ascertain what to do very hard. The majority managed it, unless they are completely isolated asking their neighbours would statitically get one who did know the score, and then surely the message would spread.

~:smoking:

[KukriKhan]

Right, "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Cope. Adapt. Re-invent yourself and your circumstance. These are all hallmarks of so-called americanism. And people are mostly willing to do so.

But, to do so, one must recognize that one has been handed lemons. And there have been few, if any, leaders, media talking heads, or newspaper pundits willing or able to say: "It's a wreck. We can't or won't put things back the way they were, so make the best you can of your current situation. You're on your own." That would have been the honest, truthful message to put out.

But that's not what has been said. Instead, we got "Gonna build it back, better than before!", repeatedly.

It's been almost 6 months now. America acts like it is 'Katrina fatigued', and that comes across in media reports. If they haven't done so already, I bet the majority of evacuees soon just give up hope of ever returning, get even more cynical about government promises, and find a way to begin anew in Topeka, or Seattle, or Gainesville, or wherever they find themselves.

[The Black Ship]

So Kukri do you believe it's better for the evacuees to wait for the free trailer in New Orleans than getting an apartment elsewhere? Is it better because it's free? Hell, it's still a trailer!

And once in this free trailer what then? What are they to do? If they get a job in the New Orleans area should they be allowed to retain their free trailer? Shouldn't their trailer go to someone else?

Seems to be perpetuating what occured before the storm.

[KukriKhan]

So Kukri do you believe it's better for the evacuees to wait for the free trailer in New Orleans than getting an apartment elsewhere? Is it better because it's free? Hell, it's still a trailer!

And once in this free trailer what then? What are they to do? If they get a job in the New Orleans area should they be allowed to retain their free trailer? Shouldn't their trailer go to someone else?

Seems to be perpetuating what occured before the storm.

I believe that ('wait') is what they've been told, daily, since before the storm hit. "Go to the convention center and wait." "Take this bus to Houston, and Wait." "Move to this motel room, and wait."

I believe they need to be told the truth: "Stop waiting. This is as far as you go. We can't fix up the old place soon, so You take it from here."

But that kind of talk doesn't play well in election years. So instead of coming out and telling the truth and giving valuable advice ("You're on your own."), we'll just kick their 'lazy' asses out on the street of whatever town they live in, to be absorbed as 'unfunded entitlement' cases by the local gov't.

And, 3 years from now, where New Orleans once stood, we'll have "NewOrleansWorld" (ala Disneyworld), a fun entertainment vacation destination for the whole family, complete with Animatronic Jazz players and Jumbalaya cooks.

Maybe some evacuees can trickle back then and pick up a gig as a tourist toilet cleaner.

[Fragony]

Are there any alternatives like tents or anything? It is obvious that they can't stay in the hotels but they should have shelter.

[Devastatin Dave]

What most don't realise is that most of these people have always had the tit of the government in their mouth and probably expected to live in these hotels FOREVER if a home was not built FOR them, with tax payers moneys. This is the problem we are facing. The problem is not the responsibility of the government but the responsiblility of individual citizens to get off their worthless welfare asses and work for their living. I've got two jobs and these morons can't find one. BS.

[KukriKhan]

In his 15 Sep 05 speech from New Orleans, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/15/politics/main851262.shtml our fearless leader said:


..As all of us saw on television, there is also some deep, persistent poverty in this region as well. And that poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America. We have a duty to confront this poverty with bold action. So let us restore all that we have cherished from yesterday, and let us rise above the legacy of inequality. When the streets are rebuilt, there should be many new businesses, including minority-owned businesses, along those streets. When the houses are rebuilt, more families should own, not rent, those houses. When the regional economy revives, local people should be prepared for the jobs being created...

So now, we're back to "They're poor because they want to be, and we don't wanna pay for it anymore, because they're just lazy hangers-on." Fine, tell them that, straight up, and ditch the promises of help and immediate action.

[Lemur]

Where are all the liberals who would normally be screaming about this right now?

Where is AdrianII? Tribesman? Legio ulpaIIIvixtirxwhateverwhateveryouhavealongname? Where is Hurin_Rules? Lemur? TAchikaze? Zorba?
You have both an interesting definition of "liberal" and a questionable idea of who to lump together. You also appear to believe that you have mind-reading powers. Fascinating, Captain.

[Devastatin Dave]

So now, we're back to "They're poor because they want to be, and we don't wanna pay for it anymore, because they're just lazy hangers-on." Fine, tell them that, straight up, and ditch the promises of help and immediate action.
I wish our leaders would but they are too afraid of being called racist even though there are more whites on welfare than blacks. the democrates and other liberals have done a great job keeping the poor on their plantation with social programs that fly against personnal responsibility. Its sad when you see a legal and often illegal immagrant come to this country, get a job, work hard, put his kids through school, and be a successful productive citizen when you have generation after generation using the same excuses for 100 years and expect "de govoment" to take care of their ass because of some ills that their forefathers faced. Give me your poor, your tired, and your weak as long as you take these worthless nonworking bums in return.

[rory_20_uk]

Ah, it's not finding a job that's the problem, it's finding one that they think has the following features:

They have sufficient qualifications for it.
The employer is prepared to employ them.
The pay is sufficiently higher than welfare and having all that free time.

Basically unlikely to occur by choice. Industries suffer as there is no cheap labour as the rates that would be internationally competative are below welfare benefit.

For some to achieve there has to be the fear of where they are trying to escape from. If (as is so true in the UK for example) housing, money, schooling, healthcare are your rights even if you've never worked a day in your parasitical life then why bother trying? Even jails have fairly decent minimal standards (as opposed to Junior Doctor accommodation that has NO minimum standards). :furious3:

Yes, some will suffer as they will in any system. But a leaner meaner system will benefit the majority to a greater degree. And I'd imagine even if having to work is a shock to the system, but ultimately leads to greater self respect.

~:smoking:

[Major Robert Dump]

Kukri:
If FEMA can make motels let people live there for free, and can keep peoples financial accounts from going dilinquint because they are unable to pay
I'm almost certain it could negotiate with leasing agents for short term leases or leases that could be broken due to individual circumstances, i.e. a trailer becoming available back home. Of course, this requires a certain level of motivation from the subject to actually open a line of communication between FEMA and the leasing agent, and it requires leases not be broken or tazken advantage of for reason that have nothing to do with the hurricane

You make valid points about the cojones of the leaders who are baiting evacuees along

[KukriKhan]

You're right, my friend. That would work. The trouble is agency turf wars.

I've worked with FEMA a few times - most recently last October. To a man (I'm sure they employ women, but I've never met any), they like to remind anyone who'll listen, that they MANAGE EMERGENCIES, and that's all; they're not staffed or funded - especially after they got folded into Dept o'Homeland Security - to provide ongoing, longterm (defined as anything over 90 days after the storm, flood, fire, nuke attack, whatever) management. Someone else, with bigger pockets is supposed to handle that.

I'll give them this: they hire expert people in disaster mangement, who know what the hell they're talking about. And they can coordinate logistics like no one I've ever seen...they could have launched D-Day with 72 hours notice, IMO. They're focused, expert, and efficient. But they're eager to pass the ball as soon as possible - 'cause there's another emergency looming next week, somewhere.

In October 2003, we had bad brushfires here. Many communities got burnt to the ground. California resources made a valient effort, but more was clearly needed by day 2. The call went out, FEMA swooped in, took over, coordinated multi-state fire suppression and victim relief. They trucked in trailers and put the victims in 'em; others got housed in hotels/motels, on the federal nickle. They stayed there from Oct 2003 to last month, when most of their houses had been rebuilt. And those were the Scripps Ranch million-dollar homes of Doctors, Lawyers, Professional Athletes, etc. Folks with insurance and a steady source of income. FEMA only ran the show until January 2004, after which other agencies, federal and local, took over.

In New Orleans and Mississippi, hardest hit folks were not land owners, but generational renters. Low income guys. Tourist industry workers, mostly. They get kicked at 5 months, 2 weeks, after being herded from one location to another every few weeks, their meager chattel having been scattered to the gulf coast waters - their only possessions being themselves, their families, and their memories. And what those fellas & gals & kids face now, on top of being forcefully uprooted and re-routed, is the realization that

1) Support is over. America is bored hearing about their woes.
2) They're on their own, just like always.
3) They've been clumped together into the affirmative action/ welfare queen/reparation/civil rights stereotype perpetrated and perpetuated by right-wing media, and repeated ad nauseum by its viewers/consumers in the US, who are only waiting breathlessly to point to an idiot stealing a bottle of Mad-dog 20-20, as symptomatic and referential to the supposed predelections of an entire race.

Sorry non-US folks... this has my blood boiling, and is only aimed at my yank bretheren.

This is the uNITED states of america, dammit. Where you are what you say you are. Where you go wherever the hell you wanna go. Where who your daddy was has little meaning, outside academia. Where you can say whatever damn foolish thing you wanna say. Talk to whatever idiot you wanna talk to. Listen to whatever idiot you wanna listen to. Pray to any supreme being you find conscienciously acceptable... or not pray at all.

When you mess up, get judged by a jury of peers who weren't clever enough to get out of jury duty.

And, when you get in trouble overseas, if all else fails, the Marines will come get you.

And where, if your home gets flattened by hurricane, flood, fire, or idiot terrorist attack, your neighbors, and the rest of this vast, rich country, will help you get back on your feet - knowing that you'll pass it on to next guy whose home gets flattened by hurricane, flood, fire, etc.

That's my America.

:inhale:
:exhale:
:light cigarette:
:calm down:
:/rant:

[Samurai Waki]

well it's not like this sort of situation hasn't happened before, just look at the great depression, my Great Grandma (along with my Great Grandfather, and Grand Mother, and three Great Uncles) were all evicted from their tenants in Virginia because they couldn't find any work to pay the bills, and this happened to hundreds of thousands of people, so they lived in tent cities and stuff and worked whatever job they could get to get by. Moralistically, it could be considered wrong, but money isn't grown off trees, and as much as I or any other tax paying citizen would want to help to alleviate the situation, we don't want to get drug down into the gutters either.

[Major Robert Dump]

Had no idea Brush fire victims were being propped up that long. I'm starting to feel guilty for some of the things I posted.....

[Adrian II]

Where are all the liberals who would normally be screaming about this right now? Where is AdrianII? Tribesman? Legio ulpaIIIvixtirxwhateverwhateveryouhavealongname? Where is Hurin_Rules? Lemur? TAchikaze? Zorba?Who, me? I didn't hear you earlier, I was too busy screaming with anger, I swear. And there is nothing I could possibly add to Kukrikhan's magnificent post #30.
:bow:

[Major Robert Dump]

I recall some wealthy FEMA aid recipients after 9/11 petitioning for more monthly compensation than other residents because the "aid" did not allow them to continue their lifestyle and mode of living. The case that stands out was a woman who lost her exec husband and she was whining that she was going to have sell a car, or send her kids to public schools or some crap like that. I'm wondering if she ever got anything extra, been googling for some info but coming up empty handed.

[Divinus Arma]

Kukri, I see your points and they are well made.

I am surprised that FEMA is that proficient. It is a breath of fresh air to hear that a government agency is performing with excellence. That is a rare occurence in a non-competitive organization.

As for the brush fires, I am right near ya. And I hear you with the "peoples republic of calexico. That is no joke. Regarding the Scripps Ranch folks, they shouldn't have been getting government benefits for that long. I would suspect that their insurance and savings is paying for their hotels and rebuilt homes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know?

I hate to say it because it makes me look insensitive, but some of these poor folk are poor for a reason. I'm the guy who picked cans out of a trash can to feed myself once, remember? Now I am a year away from my MBA and I work two respectful jobs. They lack one or more of three critical elements to success in the U.S.: (1) Vision, (2) Talent, or (3) Commitment.

The ONLY time when I want to give anyone a free ride is when they are disabled by no fault of their own. Even the elderly had time to work and save up. Granted, victims of corporate scandal eradicating retirement savings are an exception.

So, the poor folk o da chocolate city aughta skip the trailer and make a new life. And the rich folk who got extra benefits did not deserve them (even though they pay more in taxes and contribute more to society).

[Red Peasant]

And they can coordinate logistics like no one I've ever seen...they could have launched D-Day with 72 hours notice, IMO. They're focused, expert, and efficient. But they're eager to pass the ball as soon as possible - 'cause there's another emergency looming next week, somewhere.




Maybe I missed something, but that was not the impression I got following the course of the Katrina disaster. They didn't seem as if they could organize a piss-up in a brewery.... and as for D-Day, then I'd now be sprecking the Deutsch if FEMA had organized it. No doubt the experts will have some excuse as to why things didn't work out, and it will be someone else's fault. Never trust experts. ~;)

[rory_20_uk]

I was under the impression the co-ordinate the resources that are there. If they've not been given enough funding, then there's nothing much that they can do. From what I've heard it was the latter aspect that impeded performance.

~:smoking:

[Slyspy]

Tell me again why they are staying in hotels and motels? Thats what transit camps and temporary housing are for, surely? I can understand the motels as a temporary thing, with the expectation of the homeless seeking jobs and homes in their new environs. But if the plan is to house them long term until NO is rebuilt and habitable then this seems a strange way to go about it. Which plan is in operation anyway?

[Major Robert Dump]

Kukri, I see your points and they are well made.

I am surprised that FEMA is that proficient. It is a breath of fresh air to hear that a government agency is performing with excellence. That is a rare occurence in a non-competitive organization.

As for the brush fires, I am right near ya. And I hear you with the "peoples republic of calexico. That is no joke. Regarding the Scripps Ranch folks, they shouldn't have been getting government benefits for that long. I would suspect that their insurance and savings is paying for their hotels and rebuilt homes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know?

I hate to say it because it makes me look insensitive, but some of these poor folk are poor for a reason. I'm the guy who picked cans out of a trash can to feed myself once, remember? Now I am a year away from my MBA and I work two respectful jobs. They lack one or more of three critical elements to success in the U.S.: (1) Vision, (2) Talent, or (3) Commitment.

The ONLY time when I want to give anyone a free ride is when they are disabled by no fault of their own. Even the elderly had time to work and save up. Granted, victims of corporate scandal eradicating retirement savings are an exception.

So, the poor folk o da chocolate city aughta skip the trailer and make a new life. And the rich folk who got extra benefits did not deserve them (even though they pay more in taxes and contribute more to society).


hahahaha. you had to throw that in, didn't you. Thats the funniest thing I've seen on these boards in a while, the AARP would love you

[Slyspy]

I'm not so sure about the "contribute more to society" bit........

[rory_20_uk]

Well, more taxes is by definition contributing more to society...

~:smoking:

[Watchman]

Having more to tax tends to directly result in paying more taxes.

[Major Robert Dump]

So an old man in cardiac arrest vs a baby in cardiac arrest the old man gets better treatment because hes paid more taxes.

right.....

The whole "I pay more taxes" argument is lame to defend better treatment of rich people because it fails to take in a whole slew of individual circumstances, both for the poorer and the richer. Not every poor person is johhny the crackhead and not every rich person is Sam Walton. To use my favorite saying from the Right, "if you don't like it, leave the country" and see what kind of success you enjoy elsewhere. Taxes are a civic responsibility

[rory_20_uk]

To be honest, neither should get any treatment as the odds of either surviving with anything like decent function is nil, unless they had the MI in a hospital (and then they've only got a 30% chance of leaving alive, in the community is it 2%).

I agree that such hard and fast rules on who gets treatment is not tenable, but I still feel that there need to be some exclusions as well as relative contraindications so those with the greatest personal responsibility get treated first.

~:smoking:

[Devastatin Dave]

Tell me again why they are staying in hotels and motels? Thats what transit camps and temporary housing are for, surely?
Beause every liberal and every lefty would be screaming that Bush is putting these people in concentration camps. Look, its a no win situation. These people have been on the tit of the government for generations and will continue to be in the same condition because now they can use the "Katrina" excuse now. God, I hate paying for these bums... Get a *** **** job!!!

/edit - replacing all asterisks for language, remember, partial use of asterisks isn't acceptable.

[Watchman]

Well, it's not like his sig alone hadn't long since tagged Dave as a Social Darwinist...

[Lemur]

These people have been on the tit of the government for generations and will continue to be in the same condition because now they can use the "Katrina" excuse now. God, I hate paying for these bums... Get a *** **** job!!!
Just a quick aside -- DevDave, have you considered making any connection between your faith and your politics? To condemn each and every person affected by this situation as a bunch of freeloaders "on the tit of the government" seems unchristian. I don't doubt that some of them are, but your vituperation seems excessive. And unfocused. And uncharitable. And not a real WWJD kind of moment on your part.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well, it's not like his sig alone hadn't long since tagged Dave as a Social Darwinist...

There's a world of difference between social darwinists (who think all the poor are examples of a weaker type of human who's fate it is to die off and we should kill off undersirables for the good of society, i.e. natural selection applied to society) and those who don't want socialism (to be enslaved to other people).

Crazed Rabbit

[Byzantine Prince]

Just a quick aside -- DevDave, have you considered making any connection between your faith and your politics? To condemn each and every person affected by this situation as a bunch of freeloaders "on the tit of the government" seems unchristian. I don't doubt that some of them are, but your vituperation seems excessive. And unfocused. And uncharitable. And not a real WWJD kind of moment on your part.
Funny. Pat Robertson is the same way. He is a man of God supposedly and he calls for the deaths of other people, who I might add, are also christian.

Jesus was a socialist Dave, face it. He would want these people taken care of no matter how lazy they are. Woudl you defy Jesus? :no:

[Watchman]

There's a world of difference between social darwinists (who think all the poor are examples of a weaker type of human who's fate it is to die off and we should kill off undersirables for the good of society, i.e. natural selection applied to society) and those who don't want socialism (to be enslaved to other people).And then there's people who couldn't tell the difference between moderate Socialism and revolutionary Communism, nevermind the Bolshevik/Stalinist version, if their life depended on it.

More to the point, "I don't want to pay for those bums" is de facto Social Darwinism in practice as it includes the implied supposition that "the good poor" will be able to feed themselves, however meagerly, with some labor if "paying for those bums" is stopped. Those who for some reason cannot (flat out unavailablity of paying work comes immediately to mind as a cause), who never seem to be adressed in this sort of thinking, can only be presumed to starve in such a scenario. But that's okay because they're "the bad poor" who're too lazy to work, right...? :inquisitive:

[rory_20_uk]

Where is there a lack of jobs? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm not Jesus and I know that Jesus would be dissapointed by my attitude. But Atleast I'm "keepin' it real" as many of these social parasites would say. Do you know what some of this "free" money given to these people have gone to? Lets just say its not to better themselves or their situation. When I look at my pay checks from my two jobs and look at my wife's pay check and see all the tax being taken out and the amount of hours we work while Homey and baby Girl gets to live in a hotel drinking 40's and smoking Kools all day without having to worry about work makes me beyond pissed. You're right, I'm a horrible Christian and a hypocrit, but atleast I work and give my family all I can and appearantly take care of several other families with my 60 to 70 hours of work a week. Its total BS that these guys can't get jobs. There is zero excuse to not be successful in the United States. Jesus forgive me. I always find it hillarious that the same people that mock Jesus and say that he wasn't what is said he was are always the first to preach Jesus when it comes to their little Godless socialist ideal and then call me a hypocrit. Kiss my booty, tea baggings for all, Amen.:2thumbsup:

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm not Jesus and I know that Jesus would be dissapointed by my attitude. But Atleast I'm "keepin' it real" as many of these social parasites would say. Do you know what some of this "free" money given to these people have gone to? Lets just say its not to better themselves or their situation. When I look at my pay checks from my two jobs and look at my wife's pay check and see all the tax being taken out and the amount of hours we work while Homey and baby Girl gets to live in a hotel drinking 40's and smoking Kools all day without having to worry about work makes me beyond pissed. You're right, I'm a horrible Christian and a hypocrit, but atleast I work and give my family all I can and appearantly take care of several other families with my 60 to 70 hours of work a week. Its total BS that these guys can't get jobs. There is zero excuse to not be successful in the United States. Jesus forgive me. I always find it hillarious that the same people that mock Jesus and say that he wasn't what is said he was are always the first to preach Jesus when it comes to their little Godless socialist ideal and then call me a hypocrit. Kiss my booty, tea baggings for all, Amen.:2thumbsup:

I posted this over an hour ago and no outrage from the backroom "moralists"? You guys are losing your touch. Over 5000 posts for me BTW, just realised it!!! Yahoooo!!! 5000 posts of happiness and joy brought to you guys over the years and you are all very welcome!!!:2thumbsup:

[drone]

Where is there a lack of jobs? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:
People from New Orleans lose their homes and jobs, area destroyed. People want New Orleans rebuilt. Why not create a Great-Depression style construction project and move all these people, in stages, back to NO and fix it up. First wave builds temp housing for the rest of the workers. Second wave gets to work rebuilding homes and businesses. People get temp housing, work, food, etc, along with a sense of pride and accomplishment. Nobody gets a free lunch, it creates a community feeling, yada, yada, yada. Then they can stage me a Mardi Gras worth remembering. :idea2:

Of course, this all depends on these people actually wanting to work, and the governments willingness to force them into it. I wonder how many illegals would show up begging to work this project. :inquisitive:

[rory_20_uk]

Fair enough, after all big business gets handouts that are probably cheaper than that anyway. But would you agree that at least partially resiting the city is a necessity, lest the same things happens again? The reason for it being in such a bloody stupid place is no longer present, and it could be called the World's Largest Death Trap.

~:smoking:

[Major Robert Dump]

GOA just reported at least 900,000 FEMA cards (out of 2.1 million) were issued to people who gave invalid social security numbers, addresses or names. Out of all those, only 212 so far charged with fraud.


This is freakin sickening. On one hand, just because someone didn't have a home, or stayed with friends or lived in a hotel and didn't know the address, or didn't know their SS doesn't mean they should starve and freeze. so not all 900,000 were necessarily fraudulant....

BUT

You would think homeland security would be smart enough to realize that this would happen. There is no doubt in my mind that some of these people got double and triple issued cards by using multiple names. 900,000. Thats almost half. These cards had like 2000 dollars or more on them. Good God, this is retarded. If I had known they'd be handing those out willy-nilly I would have driven down and picked a few up.

And people wonder why we complain that executive agencies are inefficient, and wonder why we doubt the legitamacy of some of these "victims" situations. 900,000. Bravo

[rory_20_uk]

Very early on, people should have been given their food after doing a day's work helping repair the city that they love so much they can't bear to start afresh elsewhere.

Bed and board for free, and all you have to do is sort out the city you love? What could be fairer than that? Oh yeah... Getting everything for free, with the bonus of more if you can think of a fake name... :furious3:

~:smoking:

[Xiahou]

This is all an example of beaurocracy at its worst. Just a bunch of politicians fighting each other to throw money at the problem- just so they can prove they care the most. How much has been spent now? 60, 80 billion? I heard that enough money has been spent to give every evacuee $200,000, yet most of it has been completely wasted. There are fields full of 10,000 mobile homes that were purchased for temporary housing, but they're just being allowed to sink into the mud and get ruined, unused. Why? Because regulations prohibit deploying them in a 'flood zone'.

Meanwhile, the government continues to waste taxpayer money. :wall:

[Divinus Arma]

Do you know what some of this "free" money given to these people have gone to?

Yes.

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2159/ebmap7jm.png (https://imageshack.us)

Link (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0214061katrina1.html)

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes.

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2159/ebmap7jm.png (https://imageshack.us)

Link (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0214061katrina1.html)


Actually, considering the state and considering the company an evacuee would be keeping, I would deem the .45 as a necessary expenditure, but one at that price had to be a desert eagle or something, which may be a bit immodest. Unless he was using it to do robberies, don't knock a guy or girl for buying a gun when they find out they will be staying in the Swank Hotel in Mobile, Alabama.