Strait of Bonifacio

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We didn't really look at this one closely I don't think. It's the one between Sardinia and Corsica. It's 7 miles / 11 kilometers wide. That puts it right on our borderline.

Here's a comparison:
https://img110.imageshack.us/img110/5694/bonifacio1rg.th.jpg (https://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bonifacio1rg.jpg)

Does anyone have compelling evidence that it either should or shouldn't be included as "crossable strait"? The closest one to this distance in our group is Germania/Scanza strait - approximately 10km at its widest gap. But Gibraltar at 13km was historically more difficult to cross, so we left it on the other side of the gap. We take into account not just distance but other factors here (weather, terrain, resistance, distance, and so on).

I have seen reference that this is a windy and dangerous place in storm seasons, but there are also islands here to bridge the gap even further. If large fleets have a hard time going from one point to another here, but smaller ships are better, then it should probably be crossable. I have also seen reference to the numerous small islands here being problematic for large ships.

Any strong opinions? :grin:

[Simmons]

Sorry I can't be of any help but 5 units of slingers :dizzy2:

[QwertyMIDX]

I'd say not, the Strait of Bonifacio is is notorious for shipwrecks because of its rock-strewn waters and strong winds.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

But would that be mostly big ships or small ones? If it is bad for the former it might actually be better to use the crossable strait. I guess what I'm asking is: is it better to have a fleet come in to bring men across, or could they get across 'on their own' or with local small boats more reasonably

[QwertyMIDX]

Not sure, I wouldn't cross it in a small boat, might be safe with respect to the rocks, but the wind would still be a problem.

http://www.france.com/gallery/gallery_item.cfm?id=383

I'd guess that over all small boats would be safer than a fleet.

[Big_John]

well, i've actually been to bonifacio. in april, at least, the water is very calm. the old-city of bonifacio is up on a big limestone cliff, but just around the back of that there is a nice harbor:

https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6830/oldtown5cy.jpg


i could have taken a small (modern) boat to sardinia for 25 euros. but i saved my money and stayed in france. one can see sardinia rather easily from the cliffs of bonifacio, btw.

edit: another picture of the harbor, for no good reason:

https://img118.imageshack.us/img118/4409/800pxbonifacio6dp.jpg

[Simmons]

Actually looking at the picture again is it possible an army could run out of movement points while still in the ocean? this could lead to problems if that army is attacked.

[QwertyMIDX]

There are other places where that would be an issue too, I'm pretty sure the engine just puts them on one of the shores.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

BTW, I still really love being able to pop up google earth and our locations on it and compare them to campaign map screenshots from EB. Very nice!! :2thumbsup:

[Stormy]

Thinking about it now, we should reshape those islands. ~;)
I agree with QwertyMIDX.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm sure you could make them more accurate stormy. Go for it!

[GodEmperorLeto]

Actually, now that I consider it, the straits north of the Jutland are somewhat treacherous and actually should probably require boats to cross. But, then again, that region isn't recorded as being of very vital naval importance until the Viking Era, so maybe I'm just being a windbag.

As for Corsica/Sardinia, it would be EASIER, but would that make the game BETTER? Eh, go for uncrossable. The more uncrossable straits become, the more navally strategic they become. And the more navies become important. Which creates depth in naval strategy.

[Ragabash]

Actually, now that I consider it, the straits north of the Jutland are somewhat treacherous and actually should probably require boats to cross. But, then again, that region isn't recorded as being of very vital naval importance until the Viking Era, so maybe I'm just being a windbag.

As for Corsica/Sardinia, it would be EASIER, but would that make the game BETTER? Eh, go for uncrossable. The more uncrossable straits become, the more navally strategic they become. And the more navies become important. Which creates depth in naval strategy.

More naval strategy is needed, more often AI shines with his brilliant sense of using boats and moving troops. :juggle2:

[palissa]

Pictures are very nice, i admit it, but i n272 BC, i think there was really nothing worthy in the north coast of sardinia.
The emerald coast wasnt there, and probably nobody had the minimal idea to walk across all sardinia and go in corsica.
I think you have to keep it separated.
Mediterranean isnt like baltic sea, in winter everything frozes up there, if one want, can walk all around from sweden to jutland, to estonia, finland and everywhere.
They even drive 4x4 across baltic sea.
Anyway, that my 2 cent :)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, we've explained why we are using crossable straits many times before, so if someone thinks that we are just assuming an army could 'walk across' a strait then that is just plain wrong. It's an abstraction of what really happened. Like an abstraction of a bridge across the Nile or lower Danube (those things didn't really exist at any time - they just stand for small ferries). For small straits where a real fleet (what our ships represent) wasn't needed, but instead small local ships like a ferry would suffice, then we are ok with having armies "cross" these straits.

[fallen851]

Well how realistic is it that small local ferries would transport a foreign army..."Umm hi, we are a bunch of Gaul Warlords, would you Roman ferries like to transport us to Corsica so we can invade your town, pillage your stuff and take back the money we paid you for transporting us?"

[Teleklos Archelaou]

You probably own one of the two provinces that these straits are on though (most cases, but not all). And I don't think that paying for the use of the ferries was exactly something we had in mind here. It's more like - grab what small boats you can and kill anyone locals who try to stop you, we'll use them to get across the gap.

Also, the use of these crossable straits is not going to stop. The mod members are definitely in favor of them for reasons I stated above and for the aid that it gives the AI (who is too stupid to use small boats for this most of the time), and that's not going to change. This is just trying to determine if we include this strait. There have been some helpful comments and others too.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I have no doubt it is impossible to code, but wouldn't it be interesting if the presence of an enemy fleet in a crossable strait effectively blocked it off to your troops?

[jedispongee]

In terms of gameplay, having a land bridge there would be better.

[Kull]

From a historical standpoint, I'd have to say no. Throughout the Punic Wars, there's not a single mention of a Corsica-Sardinia invasion or battle in which one side used the other island as a base. Another example is the mercenary rebellion after the first Punic War, in which the defeated mercs fled to Italy rather than Roman Corsica.

While Corscia DID have population centers on the east and south of the island, the corresponding settlement zones in Sardinia were mostly in the south and west. So travel in either direction would surely have skirted the NE portion of Sardinia (the wilder, less settled portion of the island), which almost by definition means it's not a short journey by boat. The only possible exception was the settlement of Olbia on the NE coast of Sardinia, but it was separated from the "civilized" areas by the mountainous central region (known as Barbagia for it's fierce "barbaric" inhabitants).

The most compelling argument of all however, is the startling contrast between ancient cultures on the islands - specifically the group which built the Nuraghe towers (1800-250 BC), some 7000 of which can be found all over the island of Sardinia. Surely if it were easy for armies to traverse the strait between the islands, we'd have seen some cultural overlap, yet not a single tower can be found on the island of Corsica.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Very nice Kull. That's why you get paid the big bucks around here. :grin: